Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Well, if it is an old statement, it must be really old, because I'm not familiar with it. And considering the context of how he used it, hard not to think he's referring to Palin...if this resonates, it could be Obama's "Dean scream."

No, it's an old saying. Frankly, I thought Obama's next line was the one that McCain would pounce on.

"You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change. It's still gonna stink."

If that's not calling for an ad featuring some of the tens of thousands of "Change" signs that were held up during Obama's acceptance speech, I don't know what is.

Serious question for the Obama supporters here as well: How well do you think the Obama campaign has been managed/run since the Palin nomination?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Well, if it is an old statement, it must be really old, because I'm not familiar with it. And considering the context of how he used it, hard not to think he's referring to Palin...if this resonates, it could be Obama's "Dean scream."

Maybe we're stretching things just a wee bit (or a metric ton).

"lipstick on a pig" - 125000 google hits
"lipstick on the pig" - 24000 google hits

There are 5 books on Amazon that use the phrase:
Amazon.com: lipstick pig: Books

It's even in the urban dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...20on%20a%20pig

Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

SI

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Did someone say fear tactics?

Call it what you like. He's alluded to his intentions, way too much.
Quite simple, we finally pull troops out of Iraq, Iran goes in and starts shit in the mess we leave, and we're right back where we started.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Maybe we're stretching things just a wee bit (or a metric ton).

"lipstick on a pig" - 125000 google hits
"lipstick on the pig" - 24000 google hits

There are 5 books on Amazon that use the phrase:
Amazon.com: lipstick pig: Books

It's even in the urban dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...20on%20a%20pig

Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

SI

But in this case, timing is everything...maybe Obama should leave the jokes to the speechwriters.

[Jas_lov]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Anyone read Nate Silver's latest? He pointed out that McCain's lead in national polling is interesting, but it actually increases the (still small) probability that Obama could lose the popular vote and win the election. I'm curious how much lawyering there would be this time.

Because Obama still has a good sized lead in IA and slim leads in CO and NM plus all of the Kerry states. That wins him the election. Even if he loses NH it would be tied and the House would elect Obama. He doesn't need FL, OH, or VA but he can't lose Michigan or Pennsylvania. It'll be interesting to see more state polls and if CO+NM is a lot more viable of an option for Obama.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Call it what you like. He's alluded to his intentions, way too much.
Quite simple, we finally pull troops out of Iraq, Iran goes in and starts shit in the mess we leave, and we're right back where we started.

Alright... drinking the DNC Kool-Aide!

I'm guessing in 1980, you'd be running around frantic thinking that Reagan was going to start a war with the USSR.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Call it what you like. He's alluded to his intentions, way too much.
Quite simple, we finally pull troops out of Iraq, Iran goes in and starts shit in the mess we leave, and we're right back where we started.

Let me get this straight. Hillary and Obama were playing the "I can pull out the troops in X months" game but they didn't mean it because that would mean fighting Iran? Everyone appears to want to fight in Afghanistan but wasn't Pakistan also brought up?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Serious question for the Obama supporters here as well: How well do you think the Obama campaign has been managed/run since the Palin nomination?

Check back in 2 weeks. I think it's way too early to tell. There's a bit of a press embargo on all things concerning the other party during the conventions so we're only 1 week into how

I think the really interesting development I've heard over the last week is that, in theory, Obama has taken the brakes off the 527's that he's had them on all election. We'll see what comes of that since Palin has left a lot of low hanging fruit (in particular, the debunked stories about the bridge to nowhere, fired chef, and ebay plane that she won't only let go away but that she keeps repeating) and McCain, like any long running politician, has a lot of baggage that could easily be brought up.

SI

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Alright... drinking the DNC Kool-Aide!

I'm guessing in 1980, you'd be running around frantic thinking that Reagan was going to start a war with the USSR.

Apparently you've never heard of "The Day After" mini-series. I'm sure somewhere in the credits, there was a dedication to Ronald Reagan.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'm guessing in 1980, you'd be running around frantic thinking that Reagan was going to start a war with the USSR.

Yep. Especially since I was 3.

Now McCain=Reagan...lol.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

But in this case, timing is everything...maybe Obama should leave the jokes to the speechwriters.

Except even the fake news cites that he has used the phrase before:

Obama camp response on "lipstick, " was talking about change

Keep fishing

SI

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Serious question for the Obama supporters here as well: How well do you think the Obama campaign has been managed/run since the Palin nomination?

Well, if you want to compare the campaign to a prize fight, you'd have to say that that the past week = McCain getting some good shots in and putting Obama against the ropes.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Except even the fake news cites that he has used the phrase before:

Obama camp response on "lipstick, " was talking about change

Keep fishing

SI

Again, perception and timing is everything. Saying something like that a week after Palin's bulldog and lipstick comment probably isn't the smartest analogy for someone as brilliant as he's supposed to be to use in a speech. I'll concede the point...a lot of others might not.

[Jas_lov]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Well, if it is an old statement, it must be really old, because I'm not familiar with it. And considering the context of how he used it, hard not to think he's referring to Palin...if this resonates, it could be Obama's "Dean scream."

I agree. Generations from now, historians will be writing about how Barack Obama lost the election because he called Sarah Palin a pig. I think Obama should just drop out of the race entirely and let Hillary take over. Otherwise, John McCain might be up by 30% before the end of the week. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama lost his Senate re-election and dropped out of politics all together because of this.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Because Obama still has a good sized lead in IA and slim leads in CO and NM plus all of the Kerry states. That wins him the election. Even if he loses NH it would be tied and the House would elect Obama. He doesn't need FL, OH, or VA but he can't lose Michigan or Pennsylvania. It'll be interesting to see more state polls and if CO+NM is a lot more viable of an option for Obama.

There's actually an archaic system in place if the House has to select the winner. It doesn't go by straight vote, but by state delegations. Looks like Obama still wins, though:

DEM: 27
GOP: 21
Tied: 2

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Again, perception and timing is everything. Saying something like that a week after Palin's bulldog and lipstick comment probably isn't the smartest analogy for someone as brilliant as he's supposed to be to use in a speech. I'll concede the point...a lot of others might not.

That's pretty much the appropriate response to any one of your posts I believe.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ace1914

About that NC Poll....

This is interesting:

In early August, 46% of the Survey USA sample was made up of Democrats and just 33% were Republicans. In the most recent poll, the margin was essentially even--40% were Democrats and 41% were Republicans. In other words, in a survey conducted less than a month later, Democrats made up 6% less of the sample and Republican representation increased by 8%.

So, is it normal for a NC poll to have only 33% republicans? I would think atleast 40% of the state's registered voters vote republican given Bush got 56% of the vote in both 2000 and 2004. Perhaps the issue was that the original poll had much too low of a republican sample?

[Vegas Vic]

Arlie, North Carolina has more registered democrats than registered republicans, but historically a fair amount of the registered democrats have voted for republicans, especially in the presidential and senate races.

[Crapshoot]

Going of what VV said - there are always more registered Democrats, because plently of those Dixiecrats, Yellow Dogs, or Reagan Democrats never bothered changing their affiliation. Hell, take Kentucky - registered Dems far outnumber registered Republicans, but no one would mistake it for a Dem-leaning state in general.

[albionmoonlight]

The Republicans freed the slaves. Some vestiges of Democratic registration by old-school conservatives in the South remain as a result.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, busting another lie about Governor Palin:

Palin appears to disagree with McCain on sex education - Los Angeles Times

Palin's statements date to her 2006 gubernatorial run. In July of that year, she completed a candidate questionnaire that asked, would she support funding for abstinence-until-marriage programs instead of "explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?"

Palin wrote, "Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support."

But in August of that year, Palin was asked during a KTOO radio debate if "explicit" programs include those that discuss condoms. Palin said no and called discussions of condoms "relatively benign."

"Explicit means explicit," she said. "No, I'm pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues. So I am not anti-contraception. But, yeah, abstinence is another alternative that should be discussed with kids. I don't have a problem with that. That doesn't scare me, so it's something I would support also."

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Serious question for the Obama supporters here as well: How well do you think the Obama campaign has been managed/run since the Palin nomination?

They've had the same problem for a couple of months. They don't take the attack initiative and their ads suck. But it's no time to panic. McCain just had his convention and the polls are already starting to settle. IMO this will be a one or two point race and either guy could win.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They've had the same problem for a couple of months. They don't take the attack initiative and their ads suck. But it's no time to panic. McCain just had his convention and the polls are already starting to settle. IMO this will be a one or two point race and either guy could win.

And if that happens, I still think the Obama ground game wins this for him in the electoral college, even if he doesn't win the popular vote.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I think the really interesting development I've heard over the last week is that, in theory, Obama has taken the brakes off the 527's that he's had them on all election.

I think that the Obama campaign just needs to make better ads. I wouldn't trust some of the 527 groups to save my life. There's a lot of those groups that are more likely to make ads that hurt the campaign they support rather than help the campaign they support. I personally think the 'Swift Boat' ads were the exception rather than the rule. If the Obama campaign starts relying on those groups to help his numbers, I think he's in a lot of trouble.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, a reason Obama doesn't necessarily want to attack Palin too much on the Bridge to Nowhere:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/...-to-nowhe.html

Turns out he voted for it. Wonder what his position is on it now?

[Jon]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, a reason Obama doesn't necessarily want to attack Palin too much on the Bridge to Nowhere:

Mouth Of The Potomac - NY Daily News

Turns out he voted for it. Wonder what his position is on it now?

The issue isn't the earmark itself. A huge amount of infrastructure in this country is funded by earmarks. I think we tend to forget that and assume that all earmarks are bad.

The problem is the lie about the earmark. Palin is not being honest when she repeats the lie that she was against when the record shows that it simply wasn't true. To me, a bigger honesty problem is that she still kept the money and still built the road for the bridge to nowhere. It's the hypocrisy.

[ace1914]

This presidential campaign is about racial, social, and gender divisions in America, pure and simple. Its actually more and more depressing everyday I wake up.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

*Sigh*

I thought the Apostle of Peace, the annointed Obama was above such things...

Obama Says McCain Is Offering Fake Change: 'You Can Put Lipstick on a Pig, But It's Still a Pig'

Besides...isn't talking about pigs against his Muslim...er Christian religion?

Funny, that's the title of a book written by someone working for one of the campaigns. I just cant find out whom it would be? anyone?

http://www.amazon.com/Lipstick-Pig-W...1053344&sr=8-1

McCain surely wasn't calling Clinton a pig. After all, McCain's former press secretary, Torie Clarke, wrote a book called "Lipstick on a Pig: Winning in the No-Spin Era." Elizabeth Edwards told some health journalists that McCain's health care plan was like "painting lipstick on a pig."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4433795.shtml

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

That's pretty much the appropriate response to any one of your posts I believe.

Is that an Obamabot?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Well, if it is an old statement, it must be really old, because I'm not familiar with it. And considering the context of how he used it, hard not to think he's referring to Palin...if this resonates, it could be Obama's "Dean scream."

hmm, conveniently no commentary about McCain's usage of the old phrase. Is it not the same for him? You should be equally uproarious to both unless of course....youre spun.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Maybe we're stretching things just a wee bit (or a metric ton).

"lipstick on a pig" - 125000 google hits
"lipstick on the pig" - 24000 google hits

There are 5 books on Amazon that use the phrase:
Amazon.com: lipstick pig: Books

It's even in the urban dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...20on%20a%20pig

Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

SI

Here's the thing...SFL cat simply doesnt care. He isnt for 'fair' and he isnt for 'and equal shake'. He's for one thing and one thing only and honesty and transparency left the building when he wakes up.

If you, SFL, were honest and even handed, there would be no point to concede because the truth is all that would matter. Like in troopergate. Unfortunately, you do not, in any way shape or form, care about truth.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Yep. Especially since I was 3.

That's why I said "you'd", which is short for "you would".

Reading is fundamental.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, busting another lie about Governor Palin:

Palin appears to disagree with McCain on sex education - Los Angeles Times

If that is her stance, then I am happy that she is open to sex ed in school. If she continues to be exposed as a more moderate person she can get on people's radar, for the vote.

[Arles]

The only reason the comment has any relevance was because of Palin's "lipstick" comment during the convention. Even then, at best, it's a poor choice of words by Obama with no real intent (IMO). Still, comparing what McCain said before the "lipstick" comment context was out there to Obama's comment yesterday is meaningless.

Again, I don't think it's a big deal. But, much like the poor choice in words by congressmen who used "uppity", some may be offended by it given the close proximity to Palin's lipstick comment at the convention. That's the only reason it's relevant though (and even then it's still a stretch).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

hmm, conveniently no commentary about McCain's usage of the old phrase. Is it not the same for him? You should be equally uproarious to both unless of course....youre spun.

I certainly think it's fair to say that this is more about spin than any actual intended smear against Palin, although the old fish comment following that lipstick comment would lend a bit more to the idea that it was aimed at the McCain/Palin ticket.

With that said, even if it wasn't intended how the Republicans are portraying it, it was a big mistake to use that phrase given her previous reference to 'lipstick' in her speech. The Republicans have a minefield laid out in front of the Democrats and it puts them in a really tough position in regards to attacking the Republican ticket. Any attack on Palin which could be perceived as speaking down to a woman could blow up in the Dem's face. Any discussion about disabled or special needs people which appears to be talking down to Palin could also cause problems (Biden's comments yesterday were an example of that.). Any attack on McCain in regards to his leadership, patriotism, or pride could be seen as an attack on his service or status as a veteran. I'm not saying that any of these 'spin' maneuvers are fair or even correct, but from a strategic standpoint, the Republicans have to love their options at this point.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I certainly think it's fair to say that this is more about spin than any actual intended smear against Palin, although the old fish comment following that lipstick comment would lend a bit more to the idea that it was aimed at the McCain/Palin ticket.

With that said, even if it wasn't intended how the Republicans are portraying it, it was a big mistake to use that phrase given her previous reference to 'lipstick' in her speech. The Republicans have a minefield laid out in front of the Democrats and it puts them in a really tough position in regards to attacking the Republican ticket. Any attack on Palin which could be perceived as speaking down to a woman could blow up in the Dem's face. Any discussion about disabled or special needs people which appears to be talking down to Palin could also cause problems (Biden's comments yesterday were an example of that.). Any attack on McCain in regards to his leadership, patriotism, or pride could be seen as an attack on his service or status as a veteran. I'm not saying that any of these 'spin' maneuvers are fair or even correct, but from a strategic standpoint, the Republicans have to love their options at this point.

Where is the old MBBF? Youre actually typing things without spin. I love it and can actually have discussions than.

I agree that the Republicans have a laid a minefield out there and the Dems have done a terrible job negotiating it. Unfortunately, I hate dirty politics and will defer to jon in that regard as I cant stand it and wish it wasnt a necessity and pray for a day where it isnt. If it is a necessity, that now, the Dems resolve to be as dirty as the GOP than Im just going to go put my head under a pillow.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I certainly think it's fair to say that this is more about spin than any actual intended smear against Palin, although the old fish comment following that lipstick comment would lend a bit more to the idea that it was aimed at the McCain/Palin ticket.

With that said, even if it wasn't intended how the Republicans are portraying it, it was a big mistake to use that phrase given her previous reference to 'lipstick' in her speech. The Republicans have a minefield laid out in front of the Democrats and it puts them in a really tough position in regards to attacking the Republican ticket. Any attack on Palin which could be perceived as speaking down to a woman could blow up in the Dem's face. Any discussion about disabled or special needs people which appears to be talking down to Palin could also cause problems (Biden's comments yesterday were an example of that.). Any attack on McCain in regards to his leadership, patriotism, or pride could be seen as an attack on his service or status as a veteran. I'm not saying that any of these 'spin' maneuvers are fair or even correct, but from a strategic standpoint, the Republicans have to love their options at this point.

And if they're going to win the Dems need to stop worrying about this shit and start hitting McCain in the gut. McCain/Palin lie about the bridge to nowhere every time they campaign and they don't give a damn when people bring it up.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That's why I said "you'd", which is short for "you would".

Reading is fundamental.

You are right, I was wrong. Now we all feel better.

You are using the same argument but some how mine is less valid. I expect us to go to war with Iran because Bush did it. You expect us not to because Reagan didn't. Opinions either way.

Quite frankly, both assertions are equally illogical.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, busting another lie about Governor Palin:

Palin appears to disagree with McCain on sex education - Los Angeles Times

This is my fault for trying to merge two discussions. I never meant to imply that Palin wants to ban birth control, as I don't know that. The birth control issue was more about what's going on with the current admin.

I will say, though, that condoms aren't the big issue. A lot of hard core pro-life people see the pill as another form of abortion and want to at least have the right to ban it at the state level. Any desire to revisit Griswold is still tied up in the abortion wars.

[CraigSca]

Flasch - I'm surprised you haven't already. There really are no good guys and bad guys here. It's the same thing, over and over. Unfortunately, the political posturing and selling one's soul for office is pretty much inevitable - it's the nature of the game.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

A lot of hard core pro-life people see the pill as another form of abortion and want to at least have the right to ban it at the state level.

Wow, is that really true?

[BrianD]

I railed pretty hard against making too much of the "my Muslim faith" comment, but the lipstick comment seemed slightly less benign. Reading the quote in context didn't seem to bad, but listening to the speech with the dramatic pause following the line and the roaring crowd makes me wonder if it was intended as a little shot at Palin. If he didn't mean it as a shot, did the members of the crowd think he did?

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Arles

The only reason the comment has any relevance was because of Palin's "lipstick" comment during the convention. Even then, at best, it's a poor choice of words by Obama with no real intent (IMO). Still, comparing what McCain said before the "lipstick" comment context was out there to Obama's comment yesterday is meaningless.

Again, I don't think it's a big deal. But, much like the poor choice in words by congressmen who used "uppity", some may be offended by it given the close proximity to Palin's lipstick comment at the convention. That's the only reason it's relevant though (and even then it's still a stretch).

I agree. Obama needs to quit trying to be the fuckin nice guy and tiptoe around offending people. Joe Scarborough actually said something that I agreed with this morning which was, call out McCain and Palin about this sexism stuff. Stop skating around the issues with this "Mccain couldn't define honor" press release crap. Get on and act real mad about being called a sexist, do not apologize, and call the Republican campaign out.

I retract my statement that Obama letting the presidency slip through his fingers.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And if they're going to win the Dems need to stop worrying about this shit and start hitting McCain in the gut. McCain/Palin lie about the bridge to nowhere every time they campaign and they don't give a damn when people bring it up.

I disagree. A full frontal attack by the Dems could be the end of their presidential chances at this point. I think that tactic would have worked extremely well had they done it a month ago when they had McCain on his heels. But I think the window of opportunity for that kind of a move to be effective has since passed.

I'm honestly not sure what they should do at this point. I think that's the problem currently. I don't think the Obama camp is sure which move is best, which leaves them in a state of limbo until they chart a new course.

The first debate is going to be very important for Obama. Performing well in that debate will be better for the campain than any advertisement they could run.

[BishopMVP]

Craigsca - I'm pretty pro-abortion (as I think the vast majority of people under 40 or so are), but I'd consider the morning-after pill as part of the abortion debate. It's about the easiest and least painful abortion, but that's also why it's so vehemently opposed in the anti-abortion quarters.

Originally Posted by ace1914

You are using the same argument but some how mine is less valid. I expect us to go to war with Iran because Bush did it. You expect us not to because Reagan didn't. Opinions either way.

Quite frankly, both assertions are equally illogical.

Except unless I missed something big, neither Bush went to war with Iran.

[Flasch186]

well apparently obama meets will Bubba tomorrow so the dynamic may be, a changin'.

[JPhillips]

A full frontal attack by the Dems could be the end of their presidential chances at this point.

Why? Just like any negative campaigning you have to be careful not to go too far, but simply responding to McCain's attacks isn't good enough. There's so much out there to hit McCain and they're not using it. That's another reason why the 527s are important. The ammunition is at arms reach if someone just has the sense to use it. Where are ads on McCain's plan to tax health benefits? Or ads using Republican Senator's own words to question McCain's suitability for office? Or ads using his extensive voting record ala what happened to Kerry?

On the positive side Obama needs to be a part of his own commercials. His best skill is oratory and yet you never hear him speak in his ads. Crop some thirty second clips from speeches and run them as ads. That's bound to work better than people building a green house.

I'm not questioning your sincerity, but your advice to Obama is always sit back and don't do much of anything. I can't think of a more likely path to defeat than tha.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ace1914

I agree. Obama needs to quit trying to be the fuckin nice guy and tiptoe around offending people.

It's a tough call. I agree in principle, but Obama's one major gaffe away from falling hopelessly behind. McCain has much lower standards in that regard. Someone earlier was talking about how this campaign, and especially the debates, are all about expectations and I think that's dead-on. Obama has reached a tie creating huge expectations for himself, and McCan has reached a tie keeping expectations pretty low.

I don't think people really care about the Palin stuff unless they're already firmly on the other side. But Obama has a Hollywood unlikeability that can really fall apart for him at any moment with the undecideds. Just my impression.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Funny, that's the title of a book written by someone working for one of the campaigns. I just cant find out whom it would be? anyone?

Amazon.com: Lipstick on a Pig: Winning In the No-Spin Era by Someone Who Knows the Game: Torie Clarke: Books





Lipstick On A Pig, By Steve Benen - CBS News

In watching the video again, Obama was playing to his crowd...when he made the pig and lipstick comment, his crowd knew what he meant and obviously loved it.

I've also heard that Biden used the pig and lipstick comment the same day in another speech, so one wonders if maybe it wasn't just an off-the-cuff comment by Obama.

If you do take the Obama campaign at its word...in a day when careers are made and broken by sound bites, you have to question the wisdom of saying what was said. Intentional or not, you're handing the other side free ammo.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Wow, is that really true?

Do a search on "birth control pill abortion" and you can see for yourself. I don't know what kinds of numbers believe this, but I'm sure it's a sizable portion of the pro-life movement. Honestly, the argument is fairly consistent if fertilization is the most important moment for you.

Banning the pill won't ever happen as it would cause a backlash of epic proportions even in pretty conservative states, but make no mistake that there is a movement to revisit Griswold and to get rid of the pill.