Mass shooting in Las Vegas

[Arles]

Originally Posted by panerd

This one is a little more fair. Nothing for the US to be proud of but just because they don't have guns doesn't mean people aren't being murdered in other countries.

Most of the countries worse than us have some form of martial law and/or massive warlord activity. Very few are what I would call "civilized society". It's a lot of Central America, Africa and other extreme poverty countries. I mean, we are significantly worse than places like Uzbekistan, Turkey and Afghanistan. We are a big country and have a ton of freedoms - with that does come a certain amount of homicides. But, we could be a lot better.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Arles

Most of the countries worse than us have some form of martial law and/or massive warlord activity. Very few are what I would call "civilized society". It's a lot of Central America, Africa and other extreme poverty countries. I mean, we are significantly worse than places like Uzbekistan, Turkey and Afghanistan. We are a big country and have a ton of freedoms - with that does come a certain amount of homicides. But, we could be a lot better.

Yeah I was just pulling up a more realistic chart of where the African/Middle Eatern countries are. I mean the homicides are centered in about 10 urban areas in the United States. Without those we pretty much are the low point right?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yeah I was just pulling up a more realistic chart of where the African/Middle Eatern countries are. I mean the homicides are centered in about 10 urban areas in the United States. Without those we pretty much are the low point right?

Well up to 80% of homicides are gang related in the US. Outside of gang territories the US is probably in line with Western Europe and or Australia .

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Well up to 80% of homicides are gang related in the US. Outside of gang territories the US is probably in line with Western Europe and or Australia .

That stat is not accurate and originated as an NRA talking point. Admittedly the latest data set I saw was 2011, but at that point all gang related killings equaled about 10% of gun homicides.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Well up to 80% of homicides are gang related in the US. Outside of gang territories the US is probably in line with Western Europe and or Australia .

This is not true.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Well up to 80% of homicides are gang related in the US. Outside of gang territories the US is probably in line with Western Europe and or Australia .

I assume you are pulling that number from a website like Exteranos alley, which grossly overstates the numbers.

More reliable statistics put the overall number at 13-14%.

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/S...-Gang-Problems

I tend to trust a source specifically dedicated to this issue more than a lapdog website for the NRA. Take some time to research instead of just throwing out a number someone pulled out of their ass.

[NobodyHere]

All right all right I kind of jumped the gun with that stat

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by panerd

This one is a little more fair. Nothing for the US to be proud of but just because they don't have guns doesn't mean people aren't being murdered in other countries.

2008 numbers are not more fair than 2016 numbers.

[CU Tiger]

I wonder how much cause of death accuracy plays into this.

I suspct a lot more people "disappear" in Saudi or Afghan areas and aren't ever ruled a homicide. With our technology we are pretty remarkable at finding and solving deaths.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Did no one else notice that list was biased so that the US shows up in the 'middle' as a norm almost ... how did they do that, easily very few European countries there ...

yeah, i did. And i just counted: It's 97 countries displayed, not 192. (yeah yeah, technically they don't state they do but only took the average of those 192)

[Arles]

NRA's new slogan: "Hey, atleast we aren't Honduras!"

[stevew]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Why is Puerto Rico so high?

The Brawny man kills everyone.

[CrescentMoonie]

[Edward64]

Saw SNL last night, thought it was a good tribute to both events.

[AENeuman]

Didn’t know the 3% population owns half guns, crazy.

Also, I wonder if the gun conversation will ever include suicides. If it accounts for 60% of gun deaths, trying to just tackle gangs and mass killings, is like trying to cut the budget without touching the military or entitlements

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Didn’t know the 3% population owns half guns, crazy.

Also, I wonder if the gun conversation will ever include suicides. If it accounts for 60% of gun deaths, trying to just tackle gangs and mass killings, is like trying to cut the budget without touching the military or entitlements

Let's say we ban all guns, how much of an effect do you think that would have on the suicide rate? Japan has extremely tight gun control and they manage to kill themselves just fine.

I think suicide needs a mental health and culture conversation.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I think suicide needs a mental health and culture conversation.

Like there hasn't been one ongoing for decades?

[NobodyHere]

I must've missed it. How did it go?

[thesloppy]

It does seem worth noting again that America's most prominent & popular mental health solutions actually come with warnings that they may cause murder and/or suicidal urges.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I must've missed it. How did it go?

Exactly, what do you hope to accomplish now, that hasn't been accomplished?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Like there hasn't been one ongoing for decades?

Not with any seriousness.

[PilotMan]

So all those mental health professionals, people who volunteer at suicide hotline, and after school specials don't count as anything? It seems to me that we have entire sections of society that deal just with suicide.

What do you actually hope to succeed with in a discussion on suicide that hasn't been attempted or at least tried to address in all these years. It's a shame, but let's not kid ourselves that society has failed to recognize that's it's a major issue that tears itself apart at the edges.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So all those mental health professionals, people who volunteer at suicide hotline, and after school specials don't count as anything? It seems to me that we have entire sections of society that deal just with suicide.

What do you actually hope to succeed with in a discussion on suicide that hasn't been attempted or at least tried to address in all these years. It's a shame, but let's not kid ourselves that society has failed to recognize that's it's a major issue that tears itself apart at the edges.

It baffles me that you don't see a country that throws minor, half organized attempts together to work on some mental health issues but still largely stigmatizes any serious issue that makes people uncomfortable.

Hotlines and other small scale solutions aren't a conversation. They're a band-aid on a bullet wound. Suicide is still largely not something that we've handled at the society level in any kind of healthy manner. It's not as bad as it was 30-40 years ago, but it's also still not tackled with preemptive empathy very often.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Let's say we ban all guns, how much of an effect do you think that would have on the suicide rate? Japan has extremely tight gun control and they manage to kill themselves just fine.

I think suicide needs a mental health and culture conversation.

That doesn’t match the info I found. I was using these stats
The Trace

Guns account for 6% attempts but more than half of fatalities.

About 90 percent of people who survive suicide attempts don’t go on to kill themselves.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Didn’t know the 3% population owns half guns, crazy.

Also, I wonder if the gun conversation will ever include suicides. If it accounts for 60% of gun deaths, trying to just tackle gangs and mass killings, is like trying to cut the budget without touching the military or entitlements

I saw the average gun owner owns 8 guns. If you take out the people with 1, that leaves a lot of gun hoarders.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Let's say we ban all guns, how much of an effect do you think that would have on the suicide rate? Japan has extremely tight gun control and they manage to kill themselves just fine.

I think suicide needs a mental health and culture conversation.

So, why not both ? And while it is true in a perfect world you would always aim to tackle the root of a problem, this should absolutely not mean ignoring the "means" used. It's the same as saying "if there's less guns, terrorists and other sickos will just use bombs or cars or something else". Neither of those statements (this and yours regarding suicides) should mean there shouldn't be an effort to minimize the effectivenes along with tackling the root cause.

In this case reducing guns is a neat two-for-one special.

Also, as an FYI Japan has managed to reduce suicides by a lot in the last few years with a host of new laws, programms and initiatives.

As the link that AENeuman posted points out, suicide is often ultimately a highly spontaneuos act (that has a long backstory of course) with a naturally low success rate unless using a sure-fire method. Of course there's other methods that fit that bill but almost none of them can realistically be achieved within minutes and without leaving the house, which is actually a big "detractor" in itself.

[stevew]

-Las Vegas gunman shot security guard a full six minutes before opening fire on concertgoers, police reveal


Uh..guys, how has this story changed so dramatically. Why wasn't this relayed to the police? What's up with hotel security?

[Butter]

Clearly because there were multiple shooters and it's all part of a massive coverup.

Or perhaps there was some terrible early reporting both by the police and reporters, or even a bit of CYA going on with some of the cops that they are getting out in front of now.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by stevew

-Las Vegas gunman shot security guard a full six minutes before opening fire on concertgoers, police reveal


Uh..guys, how has this story changed so dramatically. Why wasn't this relayed to the police? What's up with hotel security?

Yet in an earlier report, they said he didn't fire another shot at the crowd after shooting the security guard.

[dave731]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Yet in an earlier report, they said he didn't fire another shot at the crowd after shooting the security guard.

Again, he was an arms dealer. NOBODY wins at video poker (That's the cover story for his income). The cameras outside and INSIDE his room were there to film the deal. This is Fast and Furious 2 with ISIS/CIA all over it.

Think logically...a sick, twisted man shoots a security guard. Then 6 minutes later opens fire on the crowd below with an overwhelming arsenal at his disposal. He stops 10 minutes later not because of any police or security guard. And his door to his room is not breached until 62 minutes after the first shot. What was he doing for almost an hour if he HAD PLANS TO ESCAPE!?

What really happened...

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by dave731

Again, he was an arms dealer. NOBODY wins at video poker (That's the cover story for his income). The cameras outside and INSIDE his room were there to film the deal. This is Fast and Furious 2 with ISIS/CIA all over it.

Think logically...a sick, twisted man shoots a security guard. Then 6 minutes later opens fire on the crowd below with an overwhelming arsenal at his disposal. He stops 10 minutes later not because of any police or security guard. And his door to his room is not breached until 62 minutes after the first shot. What was he doing for almost an hour if he HAD PLANS TO ESCAPE!?

What really happened...

[PilotMan]

Wow. That's some real made up shit. Surprised that Infowars hasn't jumped all over it. It's only logical if you start at the end and go backwards. That's not the way that things work.

I'll disagree with you saying he was sick and twisted. He wasn't. He was calm, calculated, and of completely sound mind, prior. You can't hang this on mental illness.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Wow. That's some real made up shit. Surprised that Infowars hasn't jumped all over it. It's only logical if you start at the end and go backwards. That's not the way that things work.

I'll disagree with you saying he was sick and twisted. He wasn't. He was calm, calculated, and of completely sound mind, prior. You can't hang this on mental illness.

I think shooting hundreds of people automatically qualifies you for sick and twisted. Not to mention that the odds of him escaping were a million to one, so this was a de facto suicide also.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I think shooting hundreds of people automatically qualifies you for sick and twisted. Not to mention that the odds of him escaping were a million to one, so this was a de facto suicide also.

But up until that exact moment, he was the most normal, average American there was.

You want to label him after the fact, and I'm saying that before he pulls that trigger there's no way to label him. You're simply using hindsight to put a peg in a hole look for a way to rationalize his actions. What I'm saying is that you can't escape the fact that an average, law abiding person, who decides to go out in a blaze of glory is nearly unstoppable and is almost completely resistant to the labels that Congress, the NRA or media are dying to put on him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Butter

Or perhaps there was some terrible early reporting both by the police and reporters, or even a bit of CYA going on with some of the cops that they are getting out in front of now.

Sounds more and more like CYA. Police have been really dodging questions about their response.

Worker warned hotel before Las Vegas shooter opened fire on crowd - CBS News

[dave731]

I wonder if the Fast and Furious operation hadn't been exposed and somebody tried telling others that it was happening, would we laugh and say things like "man, Alex jones would eat that up"....

Just saying....

[JPhillips]

Professing an allegiance to ISIS is enough to get arrested and locked up. Why would the FBI need to entrap anyone connected with ISIS?

[RainMaker]

So there is this huge cover-up taking place and instead of leaking it to the media, someone leaked it to a guy who posts on 4chan?

Is there a single shred of evidence that this is what took place?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by dave731

I wonder if the Fast and Furious operation hadn't been exposed and somebody tried telling others that it was happening, would we laugh and say things like "man, Alex jones would eat that up"....

Just saying....

You should stop saying. It makes you look like you need to wear an I Love Me jacket in a padded room.

[dave731]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Professing an allegiance to ISIS is enough to get arrested and locked up. Why would the FBI need to entrap anyone connected with ISIS?

Maybe to allow the guns to be sold with the intent to track them just like they tried to do with the Mexican drug cartel?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

Are you really in denial about operations that have already been confirmed as tactics of our government agencies.

[JPhillips]

I'm saying there's a massive difference between how we handle drug runners and terrorists. We can't, or at least don't, arrest and detain indefinitely suspected drug runners, but we do that to suspected terrorists all the time. If they are out of the country, we just kill suspected terrorists.

What would be the point of tracking guns when we don't need to build a case against the people with the guns?

[dave731]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm saying there's a massive difference between how we handle drug runners and terrorists. We can't, or at least don't, arrest and detain indefinitely suspected drug runners, but we do that to suspected terrorists all the time. If they are out of the country, we just kill suspected terrorists.

What would be the point of tracking guns when we don't need to build a case against the people with the guns?

Unless you don't know who the guns are going to or wanting more information about other players?

[JPhillips]

It's not like the guns are wearing a wire. The whole point of the Fast and Furious plan was to pass guns to higher ups and then arrest them for possessing the guns. It was a way to bring usable charges against drug runners. That doesn't need to be done for terrorists.

[Logan]

Yikes.

[Butter]

I could even buy that Paddock was an illegal gun dealer, and that was how he made some of his money.

But I would really need proof of the ISIS/FBI link. If there is video, then release it to an actual news source instead of some off the beaten path "news" outlet.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Sounds more and more like CYA. Police have been really dodging questions about their response.

Worker warned hotel before Las Vegas shooter opened fire on crowd - CBS News

On the night of the shooting, didn't we "know" (in the sense that there was chatter about it very early on) that the security guard was shot before the rest of the crowd?

I was surprised to even discover that was a question tbh, that's how sure I am that we heard "guard was shot first" while the situation was still in motion.

[Arles]

Sounds to me like the normal Las Vegas Casino "plan" of keeping things internal to not scare off tourists might have backfired here. Instead of immediately notifying the police, the casino tried to investigate/keep internal the initial reports. I wouldn't be surprised if once everything is out in the open there was a 10-15 minute period where the cops should have been notified but Mandalay Bay was still internally looking at things.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by dave731

Maybe to allow the guns to be sold with the intent to track them just like they tried to do with the Mexican drug cartel?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

Are you really in denial about operations that have already been confirmed as tactics of our government agencies.

But how does all this connect to chemtrails and the Bilderberg group?

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Arles

Sounds to me like the normal Las Vegas Casino "plan" of keeping things internal to not scare off tourists might have backfired here. Instead of immediately notifying the police, the casino tried to investigate/keep internal the initial reports. I wouldn't be surprised if once everything is out in the open there was a 10-15 minute period where the cops should have been notified but Mandalay Bay was still internally looking at things.

Yeah, pretty sure they are about to get sued out of existence for this. Sounds like a major cover up attempt by the hotel after the fact as well.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

On the night of the shooting, didn't we "know" (in the sense that there was chatter about it very early on) that the security guard was shot before the rest of the crowd?

I was surprised to even discover that was a question tbh, that's how sure I am that we heard "guard was shot first" while the situation was still in motion.

No, I don't think so. I just recall there being reports that a guard was shot at attempting to approach the door. The implication being, he heard shots, went to investigate, Paddock had cameras showing who was in the hallway, and he fired when he saw the guard approaching. I took all of that to mean the guard got shot during the incident, not before.