Trump Indictment/Trial thread-2023

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Lathum

That is the irony in all this. his supporters claim he is being targeted when in reality he is getting special treatment literally no one else on the planet would receive.

[Thomkal]

So the judge wants a reply/meeting by Monday, what do you think Trump's lawyers do? Yep delay, want until the 10th to answer and have oral arguments.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

So the judge wants a reply/meeting by Monday, what do you think Trump's lawyers do? Yep delay, want until the 10th to answer and have oral arguments.

DOJ acts quickly to get the judge to not allow the delay and she agrees. Trump has now moved on to attack potential witness Mike Pence, who finally showed some balls in saying more about what Trump wanted him to do on Jan 6. And a potential Georgia indictment this week too. Summer is getting HOT!


EDIT: https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/s...61467507613701

[RainMaker]

Judge won't do shit. Maybe a lecture he will ignore. Different justice systems for different people.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Judge won't do shit. Maybe a lecture he will ignore. Different justice systems for different people.

Exactly. Trump has done more than enough to justify locking him up. He will never be held accountable.

[CrimsonFox]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

[Atocep]

Any attorneys here want to wade in on the Judge Cannon ruling today? I'm seeing analysis that's all over the place.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Any attorneys here want to wade in on the Judge Cannon ruling today? I'm seeing analysis that's all over the place.

Some caveats:

1. I think Trump is a horrible human being and a cancer on this country

2. I am a defense lawyer

Both of which color my perspective, but #2 more than #1.

Grand Juries are powerful things. They allow the government to collect evidence. They can subpoena testimony under oath. In a system that prides itself on open access to the justice system, they are an exception that is allowed to operate almost entirely in secret.

And we have decided that that secrecy is worth it for a few reasons. First, it lets the government build cases and investigate without interference. Second, if it turns out that someone was being investigated and turns out not to have done anything wrong, then the secrecy was good to protect their reputation; ideally, no one ever even knows they were a target. Third, if the grand jury does indict you, then you will get an open and public trial with lots and lots of procedural protections before you are found guilty, so that cures any problems caused by the grand jury secrecy.

Because grand juries are such a powerful tool, we do not allow prosecutors to continue to use them in a case once they issue an indictment. The indictment starts the public part of the case, and any investigation, evidence gathering, etc. needs to happen subject to the normal statutory and constitutional disclosure rules. In general, you need to finish with the grand jury and then indict. You don't indict and then keep using it.

There are exceptions to that rule, and I am honestly not completely sure what they are. And those exceptions are what is at play here.

Here, it looks like the United States started the investigation in DC with a DC grand jury. Then realized that the proper venue was Florida, so it got a grand jury down there. But it looks like it might have kept one or both grand juries going post-indictment, and that is what Judge Cannon is asking about.

It may be that due to the complexity of the case and alleged ongoing attempts to destroy evidence by the defense, the continued use of the grand jury(ies) was legitimate and falls into a well-established exception to the general rule (indeed, it would shock me if DOJ was not being super careful about crossing Ts and dotting Is here).

But on the surface, it raises questions. So the judge is asking those questions. She hasn't ruled on anything yet. She is asking for more information about something that (IMO rightly) raises questions and suspicions.

So, all that said, I say good for her. We WANT judges to hold the government's feet to the fire. We don't want the government taking shortcuts that end up violating rights. And judges are our first line of defense to make sure they don't.

[Brian Swartz]

Interesting, thanks for posting.

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

1. I think Trump is a horrible human being and a cancer on this country

I'd say you'd get 98% or thereabouts support for that proposition. I would definitely be in favor of it.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Some caveats:

1. I think Trump is a horrible human being and a cancer on this country

2. I am a defense lawyer

Both of which color my perspective, but #2 more than #1.

Grand Juries are powerful things. They allow the government to collect evidence. They can subpoena testimony under oath. In a system that prides itself on open access to the justice system, they are an exception that is allowed to operate almost entirely in secret.

And we have decided that that secrecy is worth it for a few reasons. First, it lets the government build cases and investigate without interference. Second, if it turns out that someone was being investigated and turns out not to have done anything wrong, then the secrecy was good to protect their reputation; ideally, no one ever even knows they were a target. Third, if the grand jury does indict you, then you will get an open and public trial with lots and lots of procedural protections before you are found guilty, so that cures any problems caused by the grand jury secrecy.

Because grand juries are such a powerful tool, we do not allow prosecutors to continue to use them in a case once they issue an indictment. The indictment starts the public part of the case, and any investigation, evidence gathering, etc. needs to happen subject to the normal statutory and constitutional disclosure rules. In general, you need to finish with the grand jury and then indict. You don't indict and then keep using it.

There are exceptions to that rule, and I am honestly not completely sure what they are. And those exceptions are what is at play here.

Here, it looks like the United States started the investigation in DC with a DC grand jury. Then realized that the proper venue was Florida, so it got a grand jury down there. But it looks like it might have kept one or both grand juries going post-indictment, and that is what Judge Cannon is asking about.

It may be that due to the complexity of the case and alleged ongoing attempts to destroy evidence by the defense, the continued use of the grand jury(ies) was legitimate and falls into a well-established exception to the general rule (indeed, it would shock me if DOJ was not being super careful about crossing Ts and dotting Is here).

But on the surface, it raises questions. So the judge is asking those questions. She hasn't ruled on anything yet. She is asking for more information about something that (IMO rightly) raises questions and suspicions.

So, all that said, I say good for her. We WANT judges to hold the government's feet to the fire. We don't want the government taking shortcuts that end up violating rights. And judges are our first line of defense to make sure they don't.

Thanks for the clarification. I was also confused. Right wing twitter of course has already called for his disbarment and prosecution over this. Have to keep the outrage machine fed.

[Thomkal]

So the Special Counsel had a warrant to aceess Trump's Twitter account since Jan, with the stipulation that they could not tell Trump about it. Twitter resisted got fined and eventually gave in:


https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...13590149263360

[bronconick]

..Trump wants a SCIF room built for him in Mar-a-Lago. I can't even.

[JPhillips]

The game is to get the judge to approve more and more until the government feels like it has no choice but to drop the case. And with this judge it just might work.

[bronconick]

Except the counter move is to walk over to the 11th circuit and watch her get smacked down again so.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

So the Special Counsel had a warrant to aceess Trump's Twitter account since Jan, with the stipulation that they could not tell Trump about it. Twitter resisted got fined and eventually gave in:


https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...13590149263360

CNN is reporting that they also tipped Trump off before turning the data over so he probably had time to delete some things.

[Edward64]

I agree with pursuing this, get it out in the open, get it in the books. Doubt it's going to impact Trump much politically (what's one more indictment) but it'd be good if some of his non-Teflon accomplices are caught in the dragnet and paid a price.

Geoff Duncan: Former Georgia lieutenant governor to testify before Fulton County grand jury in 2020 election probe Tuesday | CNN Politics

An Atlanta-area prosecutor has notified at least two witnesses to appear before a grand jury early next week, the most significant indication of her intention to seek indictments in the investigation of how Donald Trump and others tried to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

... but it'd be good if some of his non-Teflon accomplices are caught in the dragnet and paid a price.

Really don't know how guilty they are but ... congratulations Misty & Cathy, you win the prize for being the low persons on the non-teflon totem pole that no one will care much about.

Wonder if they've cut a deal or stubbornly continue to believe they did the right thing.

Exclusive: Georgia prosecutors have messages showing Trump's team is behind voting system breach | CNN Politics

Days later, (Misty) Hampton shared the written invitation to access the county’s election office with a Trump lawyer, text messages obtained by CNN show. She and another location elections official, Cathy Latham, allegedly helped Trump operatives gain access to the county’s voting systems, according to documents, testimony and surveillance video produced as part of a long-running civil lawsuit focused on election security in Georgia.

Latham, who also served as a fake elector from Georgia after the 2020 election, has come under scrutiny for her role in the Coffee County breach after surveillance video showed she allowed unauthorized outsiders to spend hours examining voting systems there.

[Atocep]

You'd think there would be consequences for going online and telling a person that is scheduled to testify against you to not testify, but here we are. Wlwere watching a former President make baseless accusations against judges and trying to influence people testifying, but not suffering consequences.

[JPhillips]

According to a worker's comp attorney in GA it's a common strategy to say worker's comp covers all workplace injuries so there is o additional liability.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

According to a worker's comp attorney in GA it's a common strategy to say worker's comp covers all workplace injuries so there is o additional liability.

Wrong thread I believe, but that is absolutely the case. Employers can be super negligent, and Worker's Comp caps out what employee's can get. OSHA can nail them with a fine, but the employee just has to take what the WC table will allow.

[Thomkal]

Heads up:


The indictments might come down in GA today-they are moving thru the last Grand Jury witnesses, and the Head Judge has said they will go past the usual closing time of 5pm if the DA signals she wants to. Tomorrow if not today then.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by bronconick

..Trump wants a SCIF room built for him in Mar-a-Lago. I can't even.

good luck with that - those things are *expensive*

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

good luck with that - those things are *expensive*

The good news is that he's an especially generous billionaire who is only intereseted in the truth.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Atocep

You'd think there would be consequences for going online and telling a person that is scheduled to testify against you to not testify, but here we are. Wlwere watching a former President make baseless accusations against judges and trying to influence people testifying, but not suffering consequences.

We're way past the point of wondering whether Trump is worse than Nixon and I'm now trying to determine if there's anyone in the modern era who has committed as many crimes as Trump with so little consequences. I can come up with names, but they're mostly dictators, which probably says something.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The good news is that he's an especially generous billionaire who is only intereseted in the truth.

But I'm sure his followers would love to pay for it

[GrantDawg]

I think the Fulton indictment might come any minute.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I think the Fulton indictment might come any minute.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

They are voting right now

[Thomkal]

And in a pre-arranged interview winning the "Best Timing" award, Rachel Maddow is about to interview Hilary Clinton at 9 pm

[GrantDawg]

10 indictments. RICO likely the big one.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

It might be another three hours before we see the indictments. No indication of the number of defendants. We really don't know if Trump is a defendant on all ten charges.

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[Lathum]

Ho Hum

Nothing will happen and Trump will rake in millions in small dollar donations and see a spike in the polls.

Like it or not, at some point, one we have likely passed, non maga people are going to start believing this is Biden trying to jail his opponent.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Ho Hum

Nothing will happen and Trump will rake in millions in small dollar donations and see a spike in the polls.

Like it or not, at some point, one we have likely passed, non maga people are going to start believing this is Biden trying to jail his opponent.

Yes I see democrat free media ( Trump calls them main stream media) news anchors like Maddox and CNN doing victory laps and I have PTSD from 2016. I am really concerned we wake on the day after the election in November 2024 and Trump has won Arizona, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and he is president again. Then God help us all.

[Ksyrup]

Someone tweeted that Trump is now under indictment in every NL East city except Philly.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Ho Hum

Nothing will happen and Trump will rake in millions in small dollar donations and see a spike in the polls.

Like it or not, at some point, one we have likely passed, non maga people are going to start believing this is Biden trying to jail his opponent.

He is getting preferential treatment but that DC indictment seems like trouble any way you look at it.

[RainMaker]

I think Georgia requires a mugshot so we might actually get one.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He is getting preferential treatment but that DC indictment seems like trouble any way you look at it.

The jury pool there will easily be the most problematic, but doubtful it goes to trial prior to the election.

[SirFozzie]

Happy indictment day! It's kinda like Groundhog day, but with less Groundhogs, and more Orange Man Indictments.

[SirFozzie]

https://twitter.com/bluestein/status...19740847411201

“As Republicans we need to take our medicine and realize the election wasn’t rigged, Donald Trump was the worst candidate ever, in the history of our party … and now we are going to have to pivot from there.”

Georgia's Lt Governor.

God DAMN.

that bit that was elipsis'd out? "Even worse than Herschel Walker"

[SirFozzie]

Dola:

19 people indicted, Trump is facing 13 Felony Charges including RICO (hey, maybe they can seize Mar-a-Lago under RICO? Kidding!)



The Indictment starts with:

INTRODUCTION

Defendant Donald John Trump lost the United States presidential election held on November 3, 2020. One oft he states he lost was Georgia. Trump and the other Defendants charged in this Indictment refused to accept that Trump lost, and they knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of Trump. That conspiracy contained a common plan and purpose to commit two or more acts of racketeering activity in Fulton County, Georgia, elsewhere in the State of Georgia, and in other states.

[JPhillips]

Gonna be tough when he endorses Trump for the general.

[SirFozzie]

Ken White (Popehat) with the Chumbawumba reference:

He gets a New York charge, he gets a Florida charge
He gets a DC charge, he gets a Georgia charge
He enters the pleas that remind him of the good times
He enters the pleas that remind him of the better times

and for once, he has to say "Yes, it's RICO"

https://youtu.be/aiVkyD1yzJg

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Really don't know how guilty they are but ... congratulations Misty & Cathy, you win the prize for being the low persons on the non-teflon totem pole that no one will care much about.

Wonder if they've cut a deal or stubbornly continue to believe they did the right thing.

Misty and Cathy are listed. They were #17 and #19.

Is it in order of severity of charges? Sidney Powell is #16 and I'd thought she would be up there with Guiliani.

Oh well, I'm sure someone will translate it into layman terms tomorrow.

[SirFozzie]

Giuliani and Trump each have the most felony count charges (13)

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ken White (Popehat) with the Chumbawumba reference:

He gets a New York charge, he gets a Florida charge
He gets a DC charge, he gets a Georgia charge
He enters the pleas that remind him of the good times
He enters the pleas that remind him of the better times

and for once, he has to say "Yes, it's RICO"

ADMISSION OF RICO - YouTube

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Thank you

[miami_fan]

This needs to be highlighted.

Rudy Giuliani, Who Pioneered Use of RICO, Indicted on RICO Charges

Life comes at you fast.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Gonna be tough when he endorses Trump for the general.

Geoff Duncan won't. He isn't that guy. He said after the 2020 election that he was glad Trump lost. He also refused to vote for Hershel Walker. His whole mission is to clean out Trump completely from the GOP.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

This needs to be highlighted.

Rudy Giuliani, Who Pioneered Use of RICO, Indicted on RICO Charges

Life comes at you fast.

Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

[GrantDawg]

Why the Georgia case is different than any of the others is that he can't get a pardon in Georgia. Georgia pardons can only come 5 years after any sentence is served, and is decided by a board not the governor. Trump really needs to move this case to the Federal level, and it might be he will have more success doing that in this case than the NY case.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ken White (Popehat) with the Chumbawumba reference:

He gets a New York charge, he gets a Florida charge
He gets a DC charge, he gets a Georgia charge
He enters the pleas that remind him of the good times
He enters the pleas that remind him of the better times

and for once, he has to say "Yes, it's RICO"

https://youtu.be/aiVkyD1yzJg

RICO Suave

[albionmoonlight]

I get that it was not in his nature to do this, but if he had just conceded the election and not stolen a bunch of classified documents, he'd currently be living the life of luxury and adoration as an ex-president that he's spent his whole life chasing.