OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[MrBug708]

Just dont die And hurry up and do the HBO series

[sachmo71]

i'd rather the book be worth the wait, and i have a feeling it will be

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

i'd rather the book be worth the wait, and i have a feeling it will be

I agree wholeheartedly, but I still can't wait.

/tk

[Thomkal]

oooh another Wild Cards book. Love that series.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Just dont die And hurry up and do the HBO series

I know especially since there are still two books after Dance to be written and Martin as others have already pointed out isn't getting any younger.

[Fidatelo]

You'd kind of think he'd have learned from the whole Robert Jordan thing, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I love these books, but I'd say the odds of him properly finishing them are about 25-1 at this point.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I know especially since there are still two books after Dance to be written and Martin as others have already pointed out isn't getting any younger.

Not to mention the fact that I think he will be hard pressed to actually wrap everything up in two books after Dance comes out. He's already extended the series by a book or two and, sadly, I can see him extending it either further.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

You'd kind of think he'd have learned from the whole Robert Jordan thing, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I love these books, but I'd say the odds of him properly finishing them are about 25-1 at this point.

I certainly hope the odds are better than that. While I am sure the thought lingers somewhere in his mind, I think the whole "I gotta finish this before I die!" motivation is a particularly difficult one to really get behind. Unless you're an incredibly morbid person or have some chronic, incureable disease.

[terpkristin]

Some recent postings on GRRM's "Not A Blog" LiveJournal are worth note:

"3/15/08: One More Chapter Done
Well, I finished a chapter of the DANCE this morning. Which ordinarily would not be occasion for comment, but this was a Bran chapter that I've been struggling with for something like six years. Bran has always been the toughest character to write, for a whole bunch of reasons, but this chapter in particular was killing me.

Anyway, that's one done. (Unless I wake up tomorrow, reread what I've done, decide that I hate it, and tear the whole thing up. Which does happen from time to time).

Now let's hope the NEXT Bran chapter doesn't take six years as well."

-and-

"3/17/08: DANCE Gets Covered
Okay, I may not have a book yet, but I have covers.

Here are the American and British covers for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS.
[go to the website to see them]
If I can deliver the book before the end of June, you'll see these in your favorite bookstore sometime this fall.

If I can't, well... you'll still see them eventually, I hope."

tk's comments..
I don't have much to say about the covers. I sincerely hope that his statement, "If I can deliver the book before the end of June..." means he thinks he has an realistic shot of doing so.

The info on finishing the Bran chapter was much more interesting to me. Since the first book, Bran was always one of my favorite characters. I guess to some extent all of the Starks (and Jon Snow) are written such that they "should" be your favorite characters, but Bran among them really sticks out to me. More so than even Jon Snow, who I think will be more critical to the eventual end of the story and more than Dany, who I think it's obvious will be central to the main plot line's end. I think it has to do with Bran's....childishness...in terms of wonder and innocence that makes him so fascinating to me. I can imagine he's a difficult character to write, but I'm glad that GRRM is taking the time to make sure it's done right...

/tk

[Grammaticus]

Bah, six years is rediculous. He needs some writers exlax.

[Galaril]

Geez, I have given up on this guy ever finishing these things. I guess I will start reading Harry "Fuckin" Potter!

[ISiddiqui]

At the very least, Rowling finished her series (and in 10 years).

[MrBug708]

Every time I see this bumped I get excited but am disappointed. I guess this was a bit more then usual

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

Some recent postings on GRRM's "Not A Blog" LiveJournal are worth note:

"3/15/08: One More Chapter Done
Well, I finished a chapter of the DANCE this morning. Which ordinarily would not be occasion for comment, but this was a Bran chapter that I've been struggling with for something like six years. Bran has always been the toughest character to write, for a whole bunch of reasons, but this chapter in particular was killing me.

Anyway, that's one done. (Unless I wake up tomorrow, reread what I've done, decide that I hate it, and tear the whole thing up. Which does happen from time to time).

Now let's hope the NEXT Bran chapter doesn't take six years as well."

-and-

"3/17/08: DANCE Gets Covered
Okay, I may not have a book yet, but I have covers.

Here are the American and British covers for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS.
[go to the website to see them]
If I can deliver the book before the end of June, you'll see these in your favorite bookstore sometime this fall.

If I can't, well... you'll still see them eventually, I hope."

tk's comments..
I don't have much to say about the covers. I sincerely hope that his statement, "If I can deliver the book before the end of June..." means he thinks he has an realistic shot of doing so.

The info on finishing the Bran chapter was much more interesting to me. Since the first book, Bran was always one of my favorite characters. I guess to some extent all of the Starks (and Jon Snow) are written such that they "should" be your favorite characters, but Bran among them really sticks out to me. More so than even Jon Snow, who I think will be more critical to the eventual end of the story and more than Dany, who I think it's obvious will be central to the main plot line's end. I think it has to do with Bran's....childishness...in terms of wonder and innocence that makes him so fascinating to me. I can imagine he's a difficult character to write, but I'm glad that GRRM is taking the time to make sure it's done right...

/tk

I agree. I don't think he would have thrown the whole "if I finish by summer" line out there if there wasn't at least some possibility of it happening. He's taken an extremely Jim Gindin approach to forecasting deadlines.

I am really hoping that the reason he's had so much difficulty with these last two books is because they constitute a significant shift in the story arc and direction. If that's true then, hopefully, the last two (I actually expect there will be more than two despite his statements to the contrary) should come a bit more swiftly. I think that's more wishful thinking than anything else.

I could see where Bran would be hard to write. He's so good at putting his readers in the heads of his characters that it has to take considerable efforts to shift your writing style among the various perspectives. I would think Bran would be harder than, say, Arya or Sansa, since he's not only younger but quite a bit more cerebral than the other two.

I agree that, at first, the Starks were set up to be "your" favorite characters, but as things have progressed it's really hard not to love Jamie and Tyrion. As for Jon and Dany being more critical to the main story as things progress, I also agree. But the thing that fascinates me is how the other characters will fit into everything. What role will the likes of Bran, Jamie, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, etc. play in the end? It's really hard for me to tell at this point.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I agree. I don't think he would have thrown the whole "if I finish by summer" line out there if there wasn't at least some possibility of it happening. He's taken an extremely Jim Gindin approach to forecasting deadlines.

I am really hoping that the reason he's had so much difficulty with these last two books is because they constitute a significant shift in the story arc and direction. If that's true then, hopefully, the last two (I actually expect there will be more than two despite his statements to the contrary) should come a bit more swiftly. I think that's more wishful thinking than anything else.

I could see where Bran would be hard to write. He's so good at putting his readers in the heads of his characters that it has to take considerable efforts to shift your writing style among the various perspectives. I would think Bran would be harder than, say, Arya or Sansa, since he's not only younger but quite a bit more cerebral than the other two.

I agree that, at first, the Starks were set up to be "your" favorite characters, but as things have progressed it's really hard not to love Jamie and Tyrion. As for Jon and Dany being more critical to the main story as things progress, I also agree. But the thing that fascinates me is how the other characters will fit into everything. What role will the likes of Bran, Jamie, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, etc. play in the end? It's really hard for me to tell at this point.

If we were talking about any other author, I would say Sansa would eventually be queen. However, she'll probably be murdered by Moon Men or Iron Men or something.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

If we were talking about any other author, I would say Sansa would eventually be queen. However, she'll probably be murdered by Moon Men or Iron Men or something.

Sansa has to kill Little Finger. Then again, I thought Robb had to kill Joffery and Sandor had to kill Gregor.

What do I know?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I agree. I don't think he would have thrown the whole "if I finish by summer" line out there if there wasn't at least some possibility of it happening. He's taken an extremely Jim Gindin approach to forecasting deadlines.

Nah. I think this actually shows the wisdom of Jim's approach to setting dates. Jim doesn't say anything until about a month to go, and then he delivers on date. The big plus is that he doesn't string you along, but I suppose the minus is that some people get frustrated feeling like they don't know what's coming.

GRRM, on the other hand, keeps on saying "maybe by X", "maybe by Y", which is basically stringing people along. I find that more frustrating. But whatever. I'll read the next book whenever it comes out, and hope he doesn't die before he finishes the series.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

If we were talking about any other author, I would say Sansa would eventually be queen. However, she'll probably be murdered by Moon Men or Iron Men or something.

I frankly hope she is. I never liked her character.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

I frankly hope she is. I never liked her character.

Poor Sansa. She gets a bad rap. She did some pretty stupid things, but I feel for her. She's come a long way.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Poor Sansa. She gets a bad rap. She did some pretty stupid things, but I feel for her. She's come a long way.

She hasn't shown to be capable of anything other than whimpering, whining, and getting dragged around by...everyone.

I'd be ecstatic if she finally snaps and gets like...Tyrion level of manipulation. But I don't see it happening.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

She hasn't shown to be capable of anything other than whimpering, whining, and getting dragged around by...everyone.

I'd be ecstatic if she finally snaps and gets like...Tyrion level of manipulation. But I don't see it happening.

I could already see things begining to change for Sansa through her interactions in Feast. She was picking up on some of Little Fingers' ploys and manipulations. Those she didn't see, Little Finger was more than happy to explain to her, in an effort to impress her and gloat.

I have a sense that the more time she spends around Little Finger the smarter and more manipulative she'll become.

I still feel bad for her. She's a 13 year old girl who feels responsible for her father's death (rightfully so), believes her entire family was killed, was tortured by Joffery, was manipulated by vile Cersei, was married to Tyrion, who, while a good guy, is a hideous dwarf and a member of the family pretty much responsible for killing her entire family, was blamed for the murder of Joffery, then got whisked away by crazy-ass Little Finger - who is so obssesed with her dead mother that he's in love with her - to live in the Vale and be put in charge of the pathetic and incredibly annoying Lord Robert. (That's leaving out the smaller details of her plight.)

I am coming around to Sansa...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

She hasn't shown to be capable of anything other than whimpering, whining, and getting dragged around by...everyone.

But it appears Little Finger is grooming her to be more calculating. The marriage to Robert's bastard seems to be a foregone conclusion and Sansa seems to realize the implications now.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

She hasn't shown to be capable of anything other than whimpering, whining, and getting dragged around by...everyone.

I'd be ecstatic if she finally snaps and gets like...Tyrion level of manipulation. But I don't see it happening.

Before book 4, I would have agreed with you. However, she's finally learning how to play the game.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I agree. I don't think he would have thrown the whole "if I finish by summer" line out there if there wasn't at least some possibility of it happening. He's taken an extremely Jim Gindin approach to forecasting deadlines.

Well, if you're talking about the Gindin approach since he blew through previous predictions, I'll take you at your word. I, however, remember plenty of such predictions and estimates in the past few years that never came close to came true, like the one where he announced he was splitting Feast of Crows because of the extra material. Remember, the second book out the next year?

[ISiddiqui]

Ugh, don't remind me... that still pisses me off. Don't say it'll be out the next year when you know it won't even be close to done by then.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Well, if you're talking about the Gindin approach since he blew through previous predictions, I'll take you at your word. I, however, remember plenty of such predictions and estimates in the past few years that never came close to came true, like the one where he announced he was splitting Feast of Crows because of the extra material. Remember, the second book out the next year?

Martin's on Daivd Winter time now.

[JeeberD]

Not reading this thread at all, but I scrolled through it a while back. I'm not sure which post it was that planted the idea to give this series a try, but back at Christmas time I picked up A Game of Thrones and finally got around to reading it last month. I'm now halfway through A Clash of Kings and can't put the sucker down. So thank you, to whomever it was that posted something that caught my attention.

Oh, and so far I think my favorite scene may have been when Theon Greyjoy re-introduced himself to his sister. Made me cringe, laugh, etc all at one time. Great, great stuff...

[cmgdodgers]

Not sure how accurate it is, but Amzaon is showing a release date for A Dance With Dragons of 9/30/08.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by cmgdodgers

Not sure how accurate it is, but Amzaon is showing a release date for A Dance With Dragons of 9/30/08.

That will hold if he meets his deadline, which is sometime this month. His last update was on May 23:

Originally Posted by GRRM

I am getting a lot done. Finished an Arya chapter yesterday, and a Sansa chapter the day before. (And before you guys assume I'm writing a chapter a day, I said "finished," not "wrote." Large portions of these particular chapters were written years ago. A chapter a day? I wish). Felt good to get them done. Been making a lot of progress with Dany too.

Even so, the time is going by so fast. I grow ever more pessimistic, but I can't think about dates and deadlines now. My mantra remains the same. One chapter at a time, one page at a time, one sentence at a time.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cmgdodgers

Not sure how accurate it is, but Amzaon is showing a release date for A Dance With Dragons of 9/30/08.

Amazon just throws up release dates with no rhyme or reason. I don't think there is any way its done by 9/30, forget it being released that day!

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Amazon just throws up release dates with no rhyme or reason. I don't think there is any way its done by 9/30, forget it being released that day!

In this particular case, Spectra did announce a 9/30 laydown for the book, so this isn't a placeholder date. However, the manuscript isn't in yet, we're looking at two weeks less in-house (and counting) than Feast for Crows had, and promotion seems to be lagging behind what Feast was doing at this juncture. On the other hand, Martin is likely to turn in a near-publishable work as is, the art and ads are likely all ready to go, and it would take serious missing of deadlines to muck with the printing schedule. Best guess is six months from the day Martin says "It's done", but they might be able to stick to the announced laydown if he turns it in by July 1 this year.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Not reading this thread at all, but I scrolled through it a while back. I'm not sure which post it was that planted the idea to give this series a try, but back at Christmas time I picked up A Game of Thrones and finally got around to reading it last month. I'm now halfway through A Clash of Kings and can't put the sucker down. So thank you, to whomever it was that posted something that caught my attention.

Oh, and so far I think my favorite scene may have been when Theon Greyjoy re-introduced himself to his sister. Made me cringe, laugh, etc all at one time. Great, great stuff...

I was in the same boat. I was at the airport a few weeks ago with no plane reading materials, so I remembered this thread and picked up the 1st book in the series. I'm now on the 3rd.

Spoiler

my favorite scene so far is Dany's purchase of the slaves.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Spoiler

my favorite scene so far is Dany's purchase of the slaves.

Mine, too. Big time jaw-dropper.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Amazon just throws up release dates with no rhyme or reason. I don't think there is any way its done by 9/30, forget it being released that day!

I'm with you, no way by 9/30. I am somewhat irritated that he is (co)authoring other books before finishing this series but my only request is finish the series (next 1-5 yrs?) before he (or I for that matter) die.

[TargetPractice6]

I feel I need to thank all of you that have been raving about this series. This thread is a big reason I decided to pick up the first book back towards the beginning of the year.

Well, I finished A Storm of Swords about a week ago and I must say the first three books were about as engaging as anything I've ever read. I haven't even started A Feast for Crows and I already can't wait to reread the series.

Having no experience with fantasy outside of the LotR movies, these books completely blew away my expectations for what the genre can be. It's almost embarrassing how I gush over these books when friends see them stacked up on my desk, and they are so big that I have a hard time convincing people to try them before they start mocking them. Oh well, their loss I suppose.

It's driving me crazy that I just started a summer lit class that is dominating my reading time and keeping me away from Westeros. I never imagined I'd be as hungry for more as I was after finishing a book as long as ASoS.

I'm also curious about the Dunk and Egg stories. I haven't seen much chatter here about them, but I assume they will be worth picking up after I finish AFfC?

[Marc Vaughan]

Sorry to run against the stream chaps ... but on the strength of the comments here I got the books.

I'm currently wading my way through them, the ideas are great but for me something is missing from the series - I think its the fact that he's weaving so many concurrent threads that its hard to get attached to the characters involved.

The first book wasn't as bad because it was focused heavily around the Stark family, but by book three there must be around 12 seperate threads weaving and while this is clever and interesting and all ... it just makes things confusing for me.

Even Tolkein who loved to be intricate kept things to a relatively small group of characters and ensured that they kept together in reasonably large groups instead of heading off seperately (and worse still then meeting someone who 'turns' into another main character who then seperates from them).

As such the books are 'readable' enough and I'll undoubtably read them all (mainly because I've got this far so I want to see how it ends) and I do think it'd make a cool strategy computer game

[cschex]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

I'm also curious about the Dunk and Egg stories. I haven't seen much chatter here about them, but I assume they will be worth picking up after I finish AFfC?

They are absolutely worth picking up. The Hedge Knight is an awesome story and The Sworn Sword is a little "smaller" in nature but still great. The best part is how they expand on the past history of Westeros and how the histories from the main volumes are tied into those stories, especially in ASoS and AFfC

[ISiddiqui]

Hedge Knight was good . I think I picked up that compilation book just for that story (haven't read the others). Haven't read The Sworn Sword yet, I don't think.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I concur with the above on the "Hedge Knight" And "The Sworn Sword". They're both great and add a lot of richness to the history. Just being able to spend time in Westeros was well worth it. The writing, stories, characters, etc. are all top quality.

[Arctic Blast]

Big fan of the series so far, but I'm a little puzzled at this insane delay for the next book. Didn't he claim before Feast for Crows that he was basically splitting what had become on insanely massive book in to Feast for Crows and whetever the next one ends up being titled? If that's the case, it shouldn't take this long to get the next book out.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

Big fan of the series so far, but I'm a little puzzled at this insane delay for the next book. Didn't he claim before Feast for Crows that he was basically splitting what had become on insanely massive book in to Feast for Crows and whetever the next one ends up being titled? If that's the case, it shouldn't take this long to get the next book out.

That's what he said when Feast was released. I actually think it may be in the book itself, how "Dance" was basically half-written.

It's pretty clear Martin is having a hard time tying all of his threads together and getting things moving again. "Storm" was a natural breaking point for a lot of what the first three books had set up. While there were still dozens of threads hanging, many were tied up.

He struggle mightily with "Feast" and since "Dance" is pretty much 1/2 of "Feast", I can see where he's having similar problems. "Feast" was all about setting up the pieces all over again. I imagine "Dance" will be more of the same, but zeroing in on the North and Dany as opposed to the Kingslanding, Dorne, and the Iron Men.

I think he had to go back and re-write a lot of what he thought he'd done. Remember, his initial plan following "Storm" was to have the next book start 4-5 years later. I'd imagine his decision to pick things up right after "Storm" changed things considerably.

[molson]

You guys are harsh. Writing a book is hard. If people had pre-ordered I'd get the angst.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

You guys are harsh. Writing a book is hard. If people had pre-ordered I'd get the angst.

It ain't harsh if the author said he'd have the book out by X time and then constantly pushed it back until it was years later. If Martin hadn't said anything about release, people wouldn't be nearly so pissy about it. He said Dance with Dragons was supposed to be out the year after Feast for Crows!!

And there is the whole, Martin may die before finishing, aka, Wheel of Time.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by molson

You guys are harsh. Writing a book is hard. If people had pre-ordered I'd get the angst.

I am not filled with angst over this. I am not upset at all really. I'd prefer to have the books, but oh well...

That said, he has published one book in this series over the last 8 years. One book in 8 years.

I don't envy his task at hand. It has to be incredibly difficult and overwhelming. He's created such a large, complex world and story. You add the pressure of really hitting it "big" for the first time and it's certainly understandable.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It ain't harsh if the author said he'd have the book out by X time and then constantly pushed it back until it was years later. If Martin hadn't said anything about release, people wouldn't be nearly so pissy about it. He said Dance with Dragons was supposed to be out the year after Feast for Crows!!

And there is the whole, Martin may die before finishing, aka, Wheel of Time.

He didn't make any promises. Every projection came with an express qualification.

I absolutely hate how authors/game designers are so vague about what they're working on and when something will be out, but it's tough to disagree with them when this is response they get.

Would you really have prefered that he just say nothing to anybody until the day of the release? How much does it impact you personally to have a date pushed ahead?

The death angle is just plain weird: "Hurry up before you die!" If he's in that bad a shape maybe he should do something besides work.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

He didn't make any promises. Every projection came with an express qualification.

I absolutely hate how authors/game designers are so vague about what they're working on and when something will be out, but it's tough to disagree with them when this is response they get.

Would you really have prefered that he just say nothing to anybody until the day of the release? How much does it impact you personally to have a date pushed ahead?

The death angle is just plain weird: "Hurry up before you die!" If he's in that bad a shape maybe he should do something besides work.

Well, I could just forget about his series if he doesn't get to and just not buy any of his future books. I think he'd rather deal with a bit of harshness on my part over that .

And yeah, I'd prefer he just not say anything about when he wants to release it. Pull a Blizzard and say "It'll be done when its done" and that seems to work well for them. I'd rather not have to build up all this anticipation that the book will be out at X and then have the rug pulled from under me.

I'd rather Lucy never offered for me to kick the football at all rather than keep pulling it away as I'm about to kick it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

That said, he has published one book in this series over the last 8 years. One book in 8 years.

IIRC, Rowling finished her Harry Potter series (7 books) in 10 years. How embarassing if Rowling can get 7 books done in 10 years and Martin struggles to finish 2 in a similar period.

I think the speculation that Martin got bored of the series after Book 3 may have some weight (The space between Books 1, 2, and 3 were 2 years between each). He seems to take more joy talking about his other projects on his blog.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

IIRC, Rowling finished her Harry Potter series (7 books) in 10 years. How embarassing if Rowling can get 7 books done in 10 years and Martin struggles to finish 2 in a similar period.

I think the speculation that Martin got bored of the series after Book 3 may have some weight (The space between Books 1, 2, and 3 were 2 years between each). He seems to take more joy talking about his other projects on his blog.

Of course, I think A Storm of Swords was as many words as the first 3 or 4 Harry Potter books.

I do think he let it get somewhat out of his control. Even though Jordan died 19 years after his first book before he could get the 12th out, he always said he knew exactly how things ended. I'm not 100% sure that Martin knows that right now.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Of course, I think A Storm of Swords was as many words as the first 3 or 4 Harry Potter books.

I do think he let it get somewhat out of his control. Even though Jordan died 19 years after his first book before he could get the 12th out, he always said he knew exactly how things ended. I'm not 100% sure that Martin knows that right now.

I've always felt like Martin knew how things will end, I just think he's having trouble with figuring out how to get there.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think the speculation that Martin got bored of the series after Book 3 may have some weight (The space between Books 1, 2, and 3 were 2 years between each). He seems to take more joy talking about his other projects on his blog.

It certainly could be boredom, but I think it's just a case of something that's become difficult. If I'm at work and have a long, difficult project that I know will take a lot of energy and time to finish, I much more apt to turn to smaller, less important and less difficult things in an effort to remain productive while putting off the challenge.

Martin has never had anything near this big. This is his magnum opus. The pressure has to be intense.