Official 2009-2010 MLB Offseason Thread

[molson]

That's definitely better than giving up a haul for Halladay AND having to pay him probably more than that.

[Chief Rum]

As an Angels fan, I'm torn on whether that's a good deal, if true.

$17 M per is a lot of money for a guy who had some lingering injury issues, isn't getting any younger, was never really a true #1 and has displayed some anger issues in key situations that have cost him.

That said, if you told me during the season that the Angels could sign Lackey for $17 M per, I think I would said, get it done.

I kinda thought the Angels would lose Lackey, but it sucks to lose him to the Red Sox on the same day their next best apparent option--Halladay--is possibly dealt to the Phils instead, which, oh BTW, also moves Lee to a primary divisional rival. I mean, it's as if someone designed today to be a day of supreme suckage for the Angels. My guess is by the end of the day, Weaver will fracture a bone skiing and Santana will tear up his rotator cuff in the Venezuela Winter League. That oughta wrap up a wonderful day.

[McSweeny]

Also looks like Roy Halladay to Philly and Cliff Lee to Seattle is a done deal. No details yet, but I love getting Halladay the hell out of the American League East.

I think I'm going to pick Seattle to win the West this year. I really like what they've done so far. Really good stuff.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

Also looks like Roy Halladay to Philly and Cliff Lee to Seattle is a done deal. No details yet, but I love getting Halladay the hell out of the American League East.

I think I'm going to pick Seattle to win the West this year. I really like what they've done so far. Really good stuff.

Seattle has done some very good things, yes.

Don't count the Angels out, though, just yet.They still have a much better offense than the M's (M's gain Figgy, but they lost Beltre and weren't a strong offense in the first place; the Angels had the best offense in baseball outside of the Yanks) and could still add Bay, and while no one starter for the Angels is as good as King Felix or Lee, they have a foursome that is better than almost all other fours in baseball in Weaver, Saunders, Santana and Kazmir. And you just know they'll do something with that 5th starter spot (probably trade for Derek Lowe, but I am hoping for something more exciting).

Plus, everyone likes to pick the "flavors of the week" in the West and then watch as the Angels again end up on top.

Regardless, I would bet if another team does win the division, they're going to have to win it (can't back into it), because the Angels aren't going anywhere.

It will be interesting to see how the Angels react to today.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Seattle has done some very good things, yes.

Don't count the Angels out, though, just yet.They still have a much better offense than the M's (M's gain Figgy, but they lost Beltre and weren't a strong offense in the first place; the Angels had the best offense in baseball outside of the Yanks) and could still add Bay, and while no one starter for the Angels is as good as King Felix or Lee, they have a foursome that is better than almost all other fours in baseball in Weaver, Saunders, Santana and Kazmir. And you just know they'll do something with that 5th starter spot (probably trade for Derek Lowe, but I am hoping for something more exciting).

Plus, everyone likes to pick the "flavors of the week" in the West and then watch as the Angels again end up on top.

Regardless, I would bet if another team does win the division, they're going to have to win it (can't back into it), because the Angels aren't going anywhere.

It will be interesting to see how the Angels react to today.

I pretty much agree with everything you just said. I'm not trying to discount the Angels as much as I'm impressed with the direction the Mariners are going in.

[Logan]

Does the Phillies' financial situation really not allow for keeping Lee while adding Halladay? I'm not sure I understand the move.

[McSweeny]

dola

I also think that Jason Bay would be a perfect fit for the Angels if you can put up with his terrible outfield defense.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

Also looks like Roy Halladay to Philly and Cliff Lee to Seattle is a done deal. No details yet, but I love getting Halladay the hell out of the American League East.

I think I'm going to pick Seattle to win the West this year. I really like what they've done so far. Really good stuff.

so we don't know yet what Toronto is getting out of this deal?

[ISiddiqui]

Wow! That's strange - getting Halladay while getting rid of Lee, who seemed to fit in very nicely in Philly. Was hearing Halladay and Lee, but guess not. Almost ends up being even in terms of their rotation at the end of last season.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Unless it's a precursor to something else.

Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

[Young Drachma]

I'm going home to sulk.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

i'd rather gonzalez than miggy frankly. and bucholz+kelly is fine by me.

[RedKingGold]

Supposedly, Halladay will agree to an extension as part of the deal. Methinks that Lee was more determined to test the market whereas the Phils were Halladay's #1 choice for a future team.

Still debating if I like this. It depensd on the prospects we gave up, I guess.

[Bigsmooth]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

Sounds like the M's are sending (according to Jason Churchill) Phillipe Aumont, Tyson Gilles, Juan Ramirez and ....?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

I pretty much agree with everything you just said. I'm not trying to discount the Angels as much as I'm impressed with the direction the Mariners are going in.

I am impressed, too (although I want to see what they're giving up for Lee). With them on the up and Texas with all their young pitching talent, the AL West is going to be a tough division this year.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Wouldn't surprise me if it's the precursor to including Buchholz in a deal for Gonzalez or Cabrera. Reportedly San Diego (with 2 ex-RS guys running things) was asking for Buchholz + Westmoreland or Kelly. I'd gladly include Kelly of the three, particularly since we could sign Chapman to replace him, but you have to give something great to get a great player. It also might depend slightly on the status of Lowell to Texas - haven't heard anything about that being resolved.

Any rumors on what Seattle/Philly is sending to Toronto? I'd heard the Phillies prospects, but if they're giving up Lee the majority would probably come from Seattle's end and I'm less familiar with their guys.

Would be shocked if Miggy gets dealt but I could see it. I think Gonzalez is far more likely though.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

dola

I also think that Jason Bay would be a perfect fit for the Angels if you can put up with his terrible outfield defense.

I think they'll definitely consider it, especially with Torii in center to help cover ground.

The evil conspiracy guy in me suggests the Angels might deal Gary Matthews and prospects to the Braves for Lowe (probably eating $2-3 M for the length of Matthews contract), sign Bay, and then turn around and deal Rivera and Weaver (Boras client, not expected to re-sign with how relations are between the Angels and the super agent) for a frontline starter. Who that starter is, I don't know, maybe they contact the D'Backs again and see if they're interested in moving Webb or Haren, or maybe see if the Giants are concerned about being able to afford Cain with all the money they will have to dedicate to Lincecum. I think most people would consider a #2 level starter in Weaver and a good offensive LF on a great deal if they have an arm they would consider moving.

That would put a lineup of Aybar-Abreu-Hunter-Bay-Morales-Kendrick-Wood-Napoli (DH)-Mathis out there, with a rotation of said frontline starter-Saunders-Santana-Kazmir-Lowe.

Even if they don't find a taker for Rivera-Weaver, they go with Weaver-Saunders-Santana-Kazmir-Lowe, that's a pretty strong rotation and lineup (with Bay probably DHing a lot; Rivera back in LF).

But Bay and Lowe haven't happened yet, so I should probably be quiet and see how the Angels react first.

[Chief Rum]

Heh...Halos Heaven - Your Angels Blog. Angels Baseball Fans. Los Angeles We Fly Flags of Anaheim, a popular Angels blog, has a poll up.

"Is John Lackey a traitor?"

There is only one selectable response to the poll, lol.

[DaddyTorgo]

lot of hatred on there for a guy who was a FA...I mean what's he supposed to do?

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, come on... happens with most FA's. Red Sox fans used to call Damon that for years (at least the ones I knew anyways).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

lot of hatred on there for a guy who was a FA...I mean what's he supposed to do?

lol...yeah, give them a break, huh? They're no different than any other fanbase when a long time player leaves. Damon's a good example from the Sox.

And just because the Angels finally beat the Sox last season doesn't mean the Angels' fanbase doesn't still hate the Sox. They do, as much as ever. So Lackey to the Red Sox is going to be viewed that way by them.

Me personally, I'm not sorry to see him go. So I find it all funny.

[molson]

It seems like the typical mix for a message board. People notice the weirdos and attribute those opinions to the entire group, but no, I'm sure most regular Angels fans understand how the business of baseball works, or at least, they'll remember how it works after the initial emotional dissapointment.

[McSweeny]

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.

cool beans

[Galaril]

I will chime and say I am happily shocked Lackey WOW! They must have been kepping that under there hats to do a misdirection on the ole Yanks in case they tried to drive the price up on us even if they were not all that interesting. So the Sox starting five at present Beckett Lackey Lester Dice K, and Buchholtz. That is pretty good. I would not mind them trading Dice K but his contract is a hindrance to say the least. Anyways, it sure gives them some room to make a deal for someone like Adrian Gonzalez or maybe Hanley though not sure where he would go unless they flipped Scutarro to the Marlins along with a bunch of prospects.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.

I agree I like the utility of that outfield.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Bigsmooth

Sounds like the M's are sending (according to Jason Churchill) Phillipe Aumont, Tyson Gilles, Juan Ramirez and ....?

Churchill is hit and miss with his info. None of those guys would surprise me, but I'd be slightly surprised to see all three of them go. Not because Lee isn't awesome - he is - but because as a guy with only 1 year left on his current deal and word that his demands for a contract extension are very high, he doesn't hold nearly as much trade value as you might expect.

Aumont is the big name among those three. He's a tall guy that throws hard with a lot of sinking movement. The downside is he (supposedly) has a hip problem that limits his durability, and is a reason why the current M's staff shifted him to the bullpen; the other issue is his command is shaky. Plus, there are some concerns about his mechanics and how long his arm will stay healthy.

Ramirez is a nice sized pitcher with some decent results, but has neither outstanding results nor outstanding stuff. He's a guy that scouts think could turn into a pretty good pitcher, but he's not a top prospect.

Gillies, whatever. His ceiling is as a 4th OF who relies on speed and getting on base.

As an M's fan, I'm excited about this deal. I have enough trust in Zduriencik that I doubt they're giving up too much for Lee, and it of course is a nice boost for the rotation and shows this group is serious about getting the M's into contender status. And if they can't re-sign him, no big deal - they'll get a couple draft picks when he signs elsewhere, or trade him mid-season if they get a good enough offer.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Supposedly, Halladay will agree to an extension as part of the deal. Methinks that Lee was more determined to test the market whereas the Phils were Halladay's #1 choice for a future team.

Still debating if I like this. It depensd on the prospects we gave up, I guess.

Rumor has it...Drabek...not liking this.

Sources: Halladay May Cost Phils Lee, Drabek

[RedKingGold]

I've heard so many rumors right now.

Now, I've heard that we are giving up Drabek, but getting Aumont in return (instead of Toronto getting Aumont).

Probably just have to wait how this all shakes out. Sounding more and more like two seperate deals instead of one three way deal.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Halladay will agree to an extension, they didn't feel they could get Lee to agree to one.

[Crapshoot]

This is just crazy. This is like fantasy league trading!

[DeToxRox]

The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

wow, that's a lot of years.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

I called Theo two weeks ago and gave him some advice, and it looks like he's listening to me. The Red Sox have signed Mike Cameron to a 2 year deal worth 15.5 million or so. It appears the plan will be to platoon him in leftfield with Jeremy Hermida to replace Jason Bay. Cameron hit 24 home runs last year to go with an OBP of .342 When you factor in the superior defense of Cameron (along with the league average defense of Hermida) it looks like an upgrade over Bay. I like it.

It's going to be lots of fun to watch an outfield of Cameron-Ellsbury-Drew.

Only things I'd quibble with is that Hermida/Cameron is less likely to be a platoon in the traditional L/R sense and more Cameron/Drew getting a day off every week-10 games (with Ellsbury less occasionally) and Hermida stepping in with the requisite shifting of parts. Also, Hermida's probably below league average (certainly with the improvement of LF'ers across baseball recently) although not nearly as bad as Bay. It'll be interesting to see if Cameron or Ellsbury plays more often in center - Cameron's the better CF'er and Ellsbury's played more in left, but the RS may want Ellsbury to keep developing in center and I've seen some reports say Cameron agreed to play LF. (I assume we're not like the Grizzlies and Iverson and we talked about where Cameron would play before we signed him )

Overall, today has been a great fuck you to Boras and Bay's agents. Who's left in contention for the 2 big LF'ers - St. Louis, Seattle, NYM? If NYY doesn't try to jump in on Holliday, the bottom could fall out of those markets (even if St. Louis is reportedly offering an 8-year deal as these things happen.)

[stevew]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

That seems like a really big mistake.

[DaddyTorgo]

16mil a year for 8 years? and they can't even DH him at the end of it to increase his productivity by taking him out of the field?

fucking yikes

[stevew]

I guess if you look at the fact that he's been worth an average of 28m WAR$ the last 3 years, he's probably worth that much money, for around a 5 year deal. I just don't know how the hell you can reasonably trust the longevity of a player for 8 seasons.

[BishopMVP]

Longoria or Braun maybe, but a 30y/o OF'er??? I hope Boras still turns it down because $16m/y isn't enough and Holliday's sitting around until February.

[stevew]

Matt Capps got non-tendered the other day. Sort of surprising. Although I certainly won't miss him at all. Maybe he can regain some fastball movement and become effective again. Although really, there's no point in paying him the 3-4m he would have got in arbitration. Shitty teams don't need high priced closers(relatively speaking, and in pirate dollars of course).

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by brassmonkey32

Why would Philly trade Lee for Halladay? It seems like trading an apple for an apple. They could of kept Lee and use there prospects for another trade instead.

Because Halladay is better than Lee. Lee is very good but Halladay has been an elite pitcher for a number of years.

[JPhillips]

But I'm not sure Halladay is better than Lee + Drabek/Happ.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But I'm not sure Halladay is better than Lee + Drabek/Happ.

Happ isn't going in this deal.

The specifics of the trades took some twists and turns on Monday. The latest structure would send three Phillies -- outfielder Michael Taylor, catching prospect Travis d'Arnaud and pitcher Kyle Drabek -- to Toronto, sources said.

Under that scenario, the Phillies would not have to include their top position-player prospect, Domonic Brown, and they would receive Seattle's top pitching prospect, Phillippe Aumont, who originally appeared ticketed for Toronto.

The Phillies would receive one other prospect -- believed to be 21-year-old outfielder Tyson Gillies -- from Seattle in the other trade for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.

Indications are that the Phillies also will receive a third prospect in the deal, but it wasn't clear Tuesday morning whether that player would come from Toronto or Seattle. However, ProspectInsider.com reported the third prospect is Mariners right-hander Juan Ramirez.

Initially, sources said, Toronto was to receive Aumont, d'Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. The Phillies had balked at sending Brown.

f all of the names being bandied about wind up in this deal, the Phillies would get back what Baseball America rates as the Mariners' top two pitching prospects, plus an outfield prospect (Gillies) they view as being similar to Taylor. So although the Phillies would be giving up two of their most highly regarded prospects in Drabek and Taylor, they would look at this deal as not significantly depleting their system for the long haul.

[lungs]

BoSox fans, if age doesn't start catching up to Mike Cameron he's going to be a really good player for you all. I've had the pleasure of watching him the past few years with the Brewers. Lots of fans will probably complain that he strikes out too much but when you look at his numbers and add in his defense he will be a very productive player.

And to top things off, you can't get a much better guy in the clubhouse and in the community. I was sad to see him leave Milwaukee but we simply needed to put our money into pitching this offseason.

Good luck to Cam.

[RedKingGold]

Yeah Sak, that's the latest I've heard as well.

I'm not as ecstatic as I was yesterday about it, but I feel good about the trade overall. The key thing is Halladay at below market cost for three years > one year of Lee and uncertainty during the remaining time we can keep our core together. Propsects are likely a wash, although I really, really liked Drabek.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

You are getting Halladay below market cost?

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

You are getting Halladay below market cost?

Three years at 20 million per, plus vesting options? Absolutely.

Cliff Lee will make more money than Halladay next off-season, I guarantee it.

EDIT: When I mean below market cost, I'm talking about overall years in the deal. Per year salary, yeah, Halladay will be making at to or close what C.C. and Johan are making. But, the fact that we won't be paying the guy late into his thirties is huge when/if he starts to age.

[RedKingGold]

Interesting side note: Pat Gillick was a GM for all three teams involved in the deal.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

RKG, that's true. I just mentally focused on the $20M, as I thought it would be a while before we saw a pitcher over that threshold. The years are great, of course.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lungs

BoSox fans, if age doesn't start catching up to Mike Cameron he's going to be a really good player for you all. I've had the pleasure of watching him the past few years with the Brewers. Lots of fans will probably complain that he strikes out too much but when you look at his numbers and add in his defense he will be a very productive player.

And to top things off, you can't get a much better guy in the clubhouse and in the community. I was sad to see him leave Milwaukee but we simply needed to put our money into pitching this offseason.

Good luck to Cam.

Love good community and clubhouse guys!! If you want to root for him here it's okay...we won't tell anyone.

With just a two-year deal I hope that we will be getting him before age really starts to catch up, at least for this year.

If he put up good numbers for the Brewers in their monster stadium imagine what he can do with half his games in our lil bandbox?

Does he get elevation on his fly balls to leftfield is the question? Or do most of his shots to the outfield tend to be more of the "line drive" variety?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Love good community and clubhouse guys!! If you want to root for him here it's okay...we won't tell anyone.

With just a two-year deal I hope that we will be getting him before age really starts to catch up, at least for this year.

If he put up good numbers for the Brewers in their monster stadium imagine what he can do with half his games in our lil bandbox?

Does he get elevation on his fly balls to leftfield is the question? Or do most of his shots to the outfield tend to be more of the "line drive" variety?

Eh, I don't hate the Red Sox. I won't root for them, but I wont' root against them. I will root for Cam though!

I think Miller Park comes out as a neutral stadium so the increase might not be as big as you'd think but if I remember correctly, quite a few of Cameron's home runs were the variety that he hits a mile in the air that barely get out of the park or get out by a decent distance. I think his hitting style will play well with the Green Monster. Definitely has an uppercut swing and he'll strike out plenty.

I think playing him in Fenway's tiny left field does his defense a disservice. He operates best when he has plenty of room to cover.