Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[RainMaker]

I don't know, a simple Google search can find what you're looking for. I know it's new to you, but this has been going on awhile and the numbers are staggering.


UN reports says West Bank settler violence has displaced over 1,100 Palestinians since 2022 | AP News

Settler Violence Rises in the West Bank during the Gaza War | Crisis Group

Rise in intimidation, settler violence in the West Bank, warns OCHA | UN News

These aren't friendly evictions you see in America with a sheriff showing up with a document. They terrorize people, assault, kill, burn their land until they leave. Incredible violence toward innocent people that has gone on for years. This doesn't involve the Gaza attacks or Hamas either (which is what I'm told is the need for murdering so many innocent civilians).

There'd be far more coverage of this if journalists weren't targeted in the West Bank too. Remember that Israel executed an American journalist a year or so ago with no repercussions. Heck, they tried to assassinate a sitting Congressman too.

This is like talking to someone upset about Holger Danske or Olimp during WW2.

[RainMaker]

And like I said before, all of you will pretend you never supported this in 10-20 years when it's viewed like apartheid South Africa or the Rhodesian government.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And like I said before, all of you will pretend you never supported this in 10-20 years when it's viewed like apartheid South Africa or the Rhodesian government.

You see, the thing is I don't support either. I hope for the best situation for both sides. An end to the violence that will never come as supporters like you sell out to one sided ideologies. The constant "but they did this" has been what killed thousands upon thousands on both sides of the conflict, and the desire to end the justification of the killing is the only way this can end short of genocide of one group or the other.

[bronconick]

It's also still going to be going on in 10-20 years and people will still argue about it. Unless the Middle East overheats from climate change and they're all dead.

[GrantDawg]

President Biden in a new Washington Post Op-Ed:

“To start, Gaza must never again be used as a platform for terrorism. There must be no forcible displacement of Palestinians from Gaza, no reoccupation, no siege or blockade, and no reduction in territory. And after this war is…

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) November 18, 2023

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

You see, the thing is I don't support either. I hope for the best situation for both sides. An end to the violence that will never come as supporters like you sell out to one sided ideologies. The constant "but they did this" has been what killed thousands upon thousands on both sides of the conflict, and the desire to end the justification of the killing is the only way this can end short of genocide of one group or the other.

You can look up who has the power in this conflict, who has done most of the killing, who has stolen the land, and who has imprisoned millions in a concentration camp.

This isn't a "both sides" issue either when it comes to America. We provide billions in taxpayer funds to support an ethnostate that wants to cleanse land of undesirables. Not to mention the trillions in other wars in the region our support causes.

[GrantDawg]

��BREAKING: Biden says the U.S. is prepared to impose sanctions on Israeli settlers who are involved in attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank.
��Why it matters: This is a big deal. It's the 1st time the U.S. is publicly considering individual sanctions against settlers pic.twitter.com/O2ZxUCCKpt

— Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) November 18, 2023

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You can look up who has the power in this conflict, who has done most of the killing, who has stolen the land, and who has imprisoned millions in a concentration camp.

This isn't a "both sides" issue either when it comes to America. We provide billions in taxpayer funds to support an ethnostate that wants to cleanse land of undesirables. Not to mention the trillions in other wars in the region our support causes.

Both sides have a claim to the land. Both sides have a right to exist. The question is how can they both live peacefully? Apparently your answer is the annihilation of Israeli Jews. I pray for peace for both peoples.

[RainMaker]

I think imprisoning millions in a concentration camp makes peace difficult. Same with the continued theft of land and settler violence. And I don't think any ethnostate has a right to exist in that current form.

Outside of maybe one poster here, we agree that a country like Rhodesia (or Nazi Germany) doesn't have a right to exist. So why would Israel be any different in its current form?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think imprisoning millions in a concentration camp makes peace difficult. Same with the continued theft of land and settler violence. And I don't think any ethnostate has a right to exist in that current form.

Outside of maybe one poster here, we agree that a country like Rhodesia (or Nazi Germany) doesn't have a right to exist. So why would Israel be any different in its current form?

I believe Palestinians should have their own land, yes.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know, a simple Google search can find what you're looking for. I know it's new to you, but this has been going on awhile and the numbers are staggering.

Thanks for your links. Always good to have something besides twitter feeds to analyze and react to. Unfortunately, your google-fu really didn't answer the question.

Just so we level set, this is your original statement that started this part of the discussion.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Illegal settlers commit far more violence in that area on an almost daily basis than whatever handful of Hamas fighters (probably PIJ) is doing.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

UN reports says West Bank settler violence has displaced over 1,100 Palestinians since 2022 | AP News

Settler Violence Rises in the West Bank during the Gaza War | Crisis Group

Rise in intimidation, settler violence in the West Bank, warns OCHA | UN News

Originally Posted by RainMaker

These aren't friendly evictions you see in America with a sheriff showing up with a document. They terrorize people, assault, kill, burn their land until they leave. Incredible violence toward innocent people that has gone on for years. This doesn't involve the Gaza attacks or Hamas either (which is what I'm told is the need for murdering so many innocent civilians).

As always, it's good to define "settler violence". In your provided #2 link, the definition is below. In addition to the obvious "killing & injuring" there are also many other conditions.

“Settler violence” is a catch-all phrase for the various ways in which Israeli citizens living in the occupied West Bank terrorise and harm Palestinians. Such acts range from trespassing, blocking roads or access to land and water sources to setting cars, homes or other property on fire, stealing livestock, burning or cutting down olive trees, throwing stones, and vandalising churches and mosques, as well as various forms of physical and verbal harassment and intimidation. In several cases, settlers have used live fire to kill and injure Palestinians.

Analysis:

#2 and #3 are articles on settler violence since Oct 7. I will easily concede there's been more settler violence against West Bank Palestinians since Oct 7. If that's how you want to argue this then I'll just say "no surprise, very bad for innocent civilians, but somewhat understandable to a degree".

IMO article #1 is 2022 and much more valid for our discussion. However, it does not breakdown the violence caused by (1) Settlers vs (2) IDF. It does say there was a UN report (but no hyperlinks provided) so searched hoping to get a breakdown.

I found 2 articles that (I think) references the UN report.

Just a moment...

150 Palestinians have been killed in the occupied West Bank by Israeli forces so far this year, including 33 children**. In addition, a boy was killed by either Israeli forces or Israeli settlers who were firing side-by-side. At least two Palestinians were killed by settlers.

Note article talks about Settlers being killed.

10 Israelis, including five settlers, one settlement guard and four Israeli forces have been killed by Palestinians in the occupied West Bank in 2022.

I'm going to say first article is really not detailed enough to provide much for either side. But I wanted to toss it in for transparency.



The second article does specifically document Settler violence but not in detail. In 2022, there was 231 "casualties" and 625 property damage (see chart in article, too big to embed).

Increase in Settler Violence, Displacement - Remarks by OCHA Spokesperson Jens Laerke - Question of Palestine



Now let's take a look at West Bank Palestinian violence against Israel. Specific to 2022 because that's what your #1 link was. According this wiki link, in 2022, West Bank Palestinians killed 21 and injured 51. I'm actually surprised that all the non-rocket attacks in 2022 were from West Bank.

Category:Terrorist incidents in Israel in 2022 - Wikipedia

On March 22, 2022, four people were killed and two more were injured during a stabbing and vehicle-ramming attack by an Islamic State supporter in Beersheba, Israel.

On 29 March 2022, a series of shootings[1] took place in Bnei Brak, Israel.[2] Diaa Hamarsheh, a 26-year-old Palestinian from Ya'bad, killed five people.[3]

On 5 May 2022, a terror attack took place in El'ad, Central District, Israel, during Israel's Independence Day (Yom Ha'atzmaut). Four civilians were murdered and several others were injured.[1]

On 27 March 2022, two Islamic State gunmen opened fire at a bus stop in Hadera, Israel, killing two people and injuring twelve.[2]

On 23 November 2022, two bomb attacks were carried out at bus stops on the outskirts of Jerusalem. Two people were killed and at least 26 were injured.

On the night of March 20–21, 2022, Sayed entered an apartment in the Arnona neighbourhood of Jerusalem and murdered Moldovan foreign worker Ivan Tarnovski, who he thought was a Jew.[6] Another Moldovan national was seriously injured.

Raad (or Ra'ad) Fathi Khazem, a 28-year-old Palestinian from Jenin, killed three civilians and injured six.[5]

There was also approx 1179 rockets fired towards Israel. But those were from Gaza strip.


In summary (or what does this all mean):

Your original statement was specific to "illegal settlers commit far more violence ...". If you had said "Israel/IDF commit far more violence ...", I would agree. I disputed and continue to dispute assumption of "illegal settlers" until you provide more evidence besides generalities.

None of your 3 articles provide a breakdown of "violence" against West Bank Palestinians by (1) Settlers vs (2) IDF. I was not able to find the UN report referenced in #1 with the detailed breakdowns (e.g. just give a list of the incidents and who caused what) but found 2 related articles. Only the 2nd article was specific to Settlers but did not break down the severity of Casualties (e.g. broken arm, shot dead etc.).

For 2022, does the 231 casualties and 625 property damage > 21 Israeli's killed and 51 injured + destruction of buildings, buses, stores etc.? I really don't know.

What we need is a detailed breakdown of Settler on West Bank Palestinian violence, similar to the wiki page I provided for violence against Israel. If you can google and find those stats, I'll be glad to do another deep dive to see if you were exaggerating or not.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There'd be far more coverage of this if journalists weren't targeted in the West Bank too. Remember that Israel executed an American journalist a year or so ago with no repercussions. Heck, they tried to assassinate a sitting Congressman too.

This is like talking to someone upset about Holger Danske or Olimp during WW2.

FWIW, in my above research, there was a lot more (western) MSM coverage of Israeli attacks on Palestinians than the other direction.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I believe Palestinians should have their own land, yes.

Ditto, I agree with that. And I'd say it was offered multiple times.

The real question is what parts should Palestinians have vs Israel. That's the conundrum.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Ditto, I agree with that. And I'd say it was offered multiple times.

The real question is what parts should Palestinians have vs Israel. That's the conundrum.

Israel is going to have to remove settlements in the West Bank. Most likely something close to the "Road Map for Peace" in 2003.

[RainMaker]

The 1947 partition is a good starting point. UN forces to help enforce borders and create a buffer zone. An international force to root out terrorists in the territories with the help of Arab allies (you want our weapons, you play ball). Finally, trials for those who committed war crimes.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Israel is going to have to remove settlements in the West Bank. Most likely something close to the "Road Map for Peace" in 2003.

Yes, using that as baseline makes sense to me. And agree on the illegal settlements.

The big complication now is there’s Fatah & Hamas.

[GrantDawg]

“Israel, the United States and Hamas are close to an agreement that would free dozens of women and children held hostage in Gaza, in exchange for a five-day pause in fighting.” https://t.co/iEmaZsVFfV

— Jon Swaine (@jonswaine) November 19, 2023

[RainMaker]

White House says no deal has been made yet.

1000 killed in a day. Some historic death tolls in the modern era.

1,000 people killed in 24 hours https://t.co/Xe1UjpvJN2 pic.twitter.com/0LuHV13tEl

— Alex Press (@alexnpress) November 19, 2023

[RainMaker]

Grim stuff from the WHO

https://www.who.int/news/item/18-11-...spital-in-gaza

[Edward64]

Two videos spliced together of a couple hostages brought into Al-Shifa (haven't read anyone denying it was that hospital). Wonder what other hospital videos are floating around.

Gnarly shot of a missing leg.

Spoiler

Hamas terrorists kidnapped people from Israel on October 7th and brought them to Al Shifa hospital in Gaza. Yet another proof that Hamas is operating from the Hospital pic.twitter.com/FmPhWdFy17

— ����Jonathan Elkhoury- جوناثان الخوري���� (@Jonathan_Elk) November 19, 2023

Certainly, does not prove that Al-Shifa is acting as a command center but it's reasonable to assume there may be/have been other hostages there. And it's also reasonable for hospital to treat the hostages. Wonder if they were forthcoming to IDF as to who, how many etc. were treated there.

There is a mass burial pit dug by the hospital (understandable), assume IDF is digging it up now to examine the remains thinking there are probably some hostages in the pit.

[Edward64]

IDF is getting better at showing things (albeit too slowly for me).

Don't think anyone doubted there were tunnels underneath, doesn't answer the question about command center though.

I'm sure there'll be more videos, be interesting to see what else they find.

OPERATIONAL UPDATE: IDF and ISA forces revealed a significant 55-meter-long terrorist tunnel, 10 meters underneath the Shifa Hospital complex during an intelligence-based operation.

The tunnel entrance contains various defense mechanisms, such as a blast-proof door and a firing… pic.twitter.com/tU4J6BD4ZG

— Israel Defense Forces (@IDF) November 19, 2023

[RainMaker]

Let's see the 10 story underground fortress and command center we were told totally existed.

[RainMaker]

Might be the aftermath of white phosphorous.

Gaza Strip: MSF treating patients for severe burns following airstrike | Doctors Without Borders - USA

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Half of Republican voters in this country have a bigger arsenal than that. You killed a bunch of people and destroyed a hospital for 8 guns.

But those weapons are not in a "hospital".

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Might be the aftermath of white phosphorous.

Gaza Strip: MSF treating patients for severe burns following airstrike | Doctors Without Borders - USA

The article says nothing about "white phosphorous" so appreciate the "might".

[Edward64]

Hostages for ceasefire approved. 50 for 4 days

Some good news

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Hostages for ceasefire approved. 50 for 4 days

Some good news

is that all that were left?

[RainMaker]

Biden admin officials see proof their strategy is working in hostage deal - POLITICO

And there was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause: that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel.

[RainMaker]

I don't know what to say… if this video doesn't shake you, then nothing in the world will. pic.twitter.com/9nTJBgB6Kl

— Ahmed Alnaouq (@AlnaouqA) November 22, 2023

[Edward64]

New footage on the bunkers under Al-Shifa. There's supposedly more video coming out (there are tunnels connected to other tunnels).

(IDF propaganda has regressed some though, no pretty map as they walked through the tunnel system like the other video)

There's some pretty good evidence that tunnel system was used (kitchen, toilet, air conditioning, electrical lines from above hospital etc.). I don't know if I'd call this a "command center" (or at least what I would envision as one) but can see this acting as a "base/hub of operations". Not sure if the rooms were actually "under" the hospital complex but there is a tunnel leading into it. This and the video of 2 hostages brought to the hospital (one injured, the other didn't seem to be) does move the dial some as to Hamas using the hospital at will.

[RainMaker]

So it appears all those bombs didn't damage the tunnels at all. Almost like that wasn't the intended target.

[RainMaker]

Israeli forces are forcibly storming the residences of families of released Palestinian hostages, seizing celebratory items such as sweets, dispersing extended family members & instructing parents & neighbors against expressing joy or any manifestation of happiness. I kid you not

— Hanine Hassan حنين (@Hanine09) November 24, 2023

[CrimsonFox]

So the pope has been called antisemetic for saying that both sides need to stop killing people. of all the lols

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

So the pope has been called antisemetic for saying that both sides need to stop killing people. of all the lols

Words, definitions and context matters.

Dispute erupts over whether pope called Gaza situation a 'genocide' | Reuters

From what I've read, it was (1) Palestinians saying Pope said Israel is committing genocide (Church is denying this) and (2) Pope is calling what Hamas and Israel both are doing "... has gone beyond war to become 'terrorism'".

So, it's not just asking both sides to stop, it's also accusing Israel (and seemingly to a lesser extent) Hamas of doing bad things.

From the Israeli perspective

Israel's Ambassador to the Vatican Raphael Schutz said he did not want to refer directly to what the pope had said but added: "There is a simple distinction, one side is murdering, raping, and does not care about those on their own side. The other side is engaged in a war of self-defence."

But yes, I do agree that "antisemitism" (vs just "anti-Israel actions") is used incorrectly too many times. Just like "racism" vs "prejudice/bigotry".

[CrimsonFox]

It's severely stupid that people aren't allowed to talk about it or have an opinion without being fired and whatnot.

[CrimsonFox]

PS Israel is severely full of shit

[RainMaker]

An investigation by the French organization Reporters Without Borders into the killing in October of a Reuters cameraman, Issam Abdallah, concluded that Abdallah and his co-workers, several of whom were injured, were “explicitly targeted.” https://t.co/GKjT3UsvbW

— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) November 23, 2023

[RainMaker]

Not Hamas related but Israel related.

Israeli forces executed an unarmed 9 year old Palestinian child in Jenin out in the open. Some of the same people who would’ve issued statements of outrage and maybe even took to the streets if this happened here in the United States will continue to remain silent while our… pic.twitter.com/bP0SkofPgx

— Dr. Omar Suleiman (@omarsuleiman504) November 29, 2023

[Super Ugly]

Sickening. 9 years old. Fuck this world.

[RainMaker]

What about newborns? Horrific way to die.

Utterly horrific: @hrw has verified the reports about the decomposed babies in the Gaza hospital after staff were forced to flee. https://t.co/iYJVkeGdQu pic.twitter.com/yT1PW5LH1H

— Sophie McNeill (@Sophiemcneill) December 1, 2023

[CrimsonFox]

We only care about them in the womb. After that they're on their own

[CrimsonFox]

(Cue Ksyrup saying "What the hell is wrong with you?")

[RainMaker]

�� Urgent-PRCS: The Israeli Occupation prevents the entry of aid through the Rafah border crossing.

⚠️ Today, Israeli occupation forces informed all organizations and entities operating at the Rafah border crossing that the entry of aid trucks from the Egyptian side to the #Gaza…

— PRCS (@PalestineRCS) December 1, 2023

[CrimsonFox]

Hey smart people
What has been kissingers involvement in the Israel Palestine conflict over the decades

[RainMaker]

In 1988 he stated that Israel should ban all press to avoid international scrutiny, then put down the protests in occupied territories "overwhelmingly, brutally and rapidly". His exact words. He even used Apartheid South Africa as his example for this.

While in power, this article is a pretty good summary.

How Henry Kissinger Prevented Peace in the Middle East

[RainMaker]

White Phosphorus (modern napalm) dropped on Gaza tonight. pic.twitter.com/ub2YKbKuH4

— Tory Fibs (@ToryFibs) December 2, 2023

[GrantDawg]

BREAKING: An American warship and multiple commercial ships have come under attack in the Red Sea, the Pentagon says. It potentially marks a major escalation in a series of maritime attacks in the Mideast linked to the Israel-Hamas war. https://t.co/WhFyTqBDzi

— The Associated Press (@AP) December 3, 2023

[Edward64]

There's been confusion on the tunnels under the Al-Shifa hospital complex. Israel has said they've build tunnels/basement and the question is did Hamas build tunnels also.

France24 did an analysis in the video below and the answer is:

Take it FWIW. Plenty of public evidence that Israel did construct "tunnels" under Al-Shifa but not the tunnels shown in recent videos. There are pics of what Israel built vs the recent tunnels found. They specifically pointed out that a tunnel system was found under the newer Qatari (sp?) building which was constructed after Israel left.

[Edward64]

re: Houthi attacks on commercial vessels and (apparently) a US ship

I suspect our missiles costs a whole lot more than theirs. But good to see taxpayer money working well.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

re: Houthi attacks on commercial vessels and (apparently) a US ship

I suspect our missiles costs a whole lot more than theirs. But good to see taxpayer money working well.

Those destroyers are pretty incredible. How fast they can fire off large numbers of defensive missiles is something.