Werewolf XXX: The Ghost Council of Orzhova - Game Over - Game Ends Night Five

[tanglewood]

Swaggs were you concously protecting Fouts at night? Performing some general protection action? Or did you just happen to get caught up by Hoops?

Also, Hoops it appears to me that you did two actions last night, talked to AlanT and attempted to spy/attack Fouts. Now, the talking about conversion/bribery thing with AlanT sounds like it would take a long time and spying traditionally in werewolf on this board is an allnight action were you follow the guy around for a lengthy period. Would you have had enough time to have done both of these actions in one night? However, just wanting to kill someone doesn't take a long time.

If we break it down simply, it actually looks fairly damning for Hoops at the moment. There was no kill at night, and we have two peoploe corroborating on the same guy a) trying to kill/spy on someone and b) failing because he was blocked. Taking the Occam's razor approach and Hoops looks guilty.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Swaggs were you concously protecting Fouts at night? Performing some general protection action? Or did you just happen to get caught up by Hoops?

This is something I would prefer not to reveal at this time. If it becomes necessary, even if it is today, I will.

[Fouts]

(I have two finals tonight, so I need to go within the next 10 minutes)

I'll leave you all with these 3 things;

1) In this situation, I did nothing but awake from a sleep and notice who was attacking me.

2) I cannot vouch for swaggs. It is possible that hoops and swaggs came up with the idea that they were fighting, in order to clear swaggs, and the real intervener is laying low. I have no knowledge if it was swaggs that intervened.

3) I purposely did not name hoops as the attacker, hoping to find out his intentions, because I wasn't told that he was a dimir. When he came at me today is when I knew for sure.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

This is something I would prefer not to reveal at this time. If it becomes necessary, even if it is today, I will.

Just speaking for myself, I'm not looking at you in this whole situation and would frankly prefer that you don't reveal this early.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Fouts

2) I cannot vouch for swaggs. It is possible that hoops and swaggs came up with the idea that they were fighting, in order to clear swaggs, and the real intervener is laying low. I have no knowledge if it was swaggs that intervened.

Seems to me that if both hoops and swaggs were bad, this entire situation would not have come to light.

[Swaggs]

Does anyone else have two nighttime abilities?

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by path12

Seems to me that if both hoops and swaggs were bad, this entire situation would not have come to light.

Good point. I went back and looked and it was Swaggs who brought up the fight first. His post about the nights events is what I believed to have happened. It leaves me a little curious as to why he doesn't back me though. If he is a good guy, why would he battle another good guy?

[hoopsguy]

Tanglewood, in terms of actions I'm allowed to take at night, I think that would be a better question for Anxiety as it is his game. I took the actions I was allowed to - both my public and private roles afford me the luxury of taking an action.

I did talk with AlanT.
I did have a skirmish with Swaggs while spying on Fouts.
I don't think either of these are in dispute.

If Swaggs was playing bodyguard on Fouts while I attacked Fouts, I'm pretty sure Swaggs would know this.

If Fouts was just sleeping and woke up to see our battle, he would not know that someone was trying to kill him as he says.

If Fouts and Swaggs are both good, then who silenced me?

[hoopsguy]

If he is a good guy, why would he battle another good guy?

Fouts, I wish I knew the answer to this as it would make my case a lot easier.

For other people who are crafting spells, I would be careful about unintended consequences going forward. I basically cast a spell that allowed me to observe Fouts from afar and found myself in a battle with Swaggs. I was in no way the aggressor in this conflict. Also, I did not get the information I was seeking as a result of the combined actions.

[st.cronin]

hoops - ok, I'm very confused.

You are Pontifex Maximus, ruler of the religious caste. How does this role allow you to talk with Alan? And what did you guys talk about?

[Barkeep49]

I don't think I'm that confused at all. Somebody was fighting last night, which I can independently verify. Hoops and Swaggs are claiming to be the ones fighting. As no one else is claiming that, I'd say they're telling the truth.

But then there is this thing with Fouts. Not sure how this all fits in, but I would say that of the people involved only one is suspicious in two regards: hoops. Therefore I am quite happy to

Vote Hoops

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I don't think I'm that confused at all. Somebody was fighting last night, which I can independently verify. Hoops and Swaggs are claiming to be the ones fighting. As no one else is claiming that, I'd say they're telling the truth.

But then there is this thing with Fouts. Not sure how this all fits in, but I would say that of the people involved only one is suspicious in two regards: hoops. Therefore I am quite happy to

Vote Hoops

Why is hoops more suspicious than fouts?

[path12]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Why is hoops more suspicious than fouts?

I was wondering that myself.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Why is hoops more suspicious than fouts?

what does fouts have to gain by saying hoops would have killed him....if fouts is a good guy, there is no point...if fouts is a bad guy, he gets us to lynch hoops tonight, he comes up Orzhov, and we lynch fouts tomorrow in retribution....there really is no reason for him to be lying.

vote hoops


thats a good point...fouts could have been tricked by a spell, like a confundus charm type thing where he only thought hoops was trying to kill him

unvote hoops
vote fouts

shut up!! thats the stupidest thing i have ever heard, im doing this my way....its not like it matters, they are all going to turn on me eventually anyway

unvote fouts
vote hoops

[Barkeep49]

Because Hoops was involved in either two, or three, night activities depending on what happened with Alan. We know hoops was out of his room, because of his interaction with Fouts. We have no reason to suspect Fouts was anything but asleep before hoops came. And something seems fishy, depiste Swaggs and Hoops playing it off, about two people fighting and then coming out as such friends today.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

what does fouts have to gain by saying hoops would have killed him....if fouts is a good guy, there is no point...if fouts is a bad guy, he gets us to lynch hoops tonight, he comes up Orzhov, and we lynch fouts tomorrow in retribution....there really is no reason for him to be lying.

vote hoops


thats a good point...fouts could have been tricked by a spell, like a confundus charm type thing where he only thought hoops was trying to kill him

unvote hoops
vote fouts

shut up!! thats the stupidest thing i have ever heard, im doing this my way....its not like it matters, they are all going to turn on me eventually anyway

unvote fouts
vote hoops

Precioussssssssssssss

[path12]

Originally Posted by saldana

what does fouts have to gain by saying hoops would have killed him....if fouts is a good guy, there is no point...if fouts is a bad guy, he gets us to lynch hoops tonight, he comes up Orzhov, and we lynch fouts tomorrow in retribution....there really is no reason for him to be lying.

vote hoops


thats a good point...fouts could have been tricked by a spell, like a confundus charm type thing where he only thought hoops was trying to kill him

unvote hoops
vote fouts

shut up!! thats the stupidest thing i have ever heard, im doing this my way....its not like it matters, they are all going to turn on me eventually anyway

unvote fouts
vote hoops

Half Dimir half Orzhov? Or just insane?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Because Hoops was involved in either two, or three, night activities depending on what happened with Alan. We know hoops was out of his room, because of his interaction with Fouts. We have no reason to suspect Fouts was anything but asleep before hoops came. And something seems fishy, depiste Swaggs and Hoops playing it off, about two people fighting and then coming out as such friends today.

However many night activities hoops was involved with, I don't see what that proves about him being good or bad. I agree about something being fishy between Swaggs and hoops - but I think it makes BOTH of them look fishy, not just hoops. Shoot, I think all THREE (including Fouts) look fishy.

[Barkeep49]

I just "just insane" to describe saldana. Though I do question whether he is perfomring a prescribed role or merely role playing.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

However many night activities hoops was involved with, I don't see what that proves about him being good or bad. I agree about something being fishy between Swaggs and hoops - but I think it makes BOTH of them look fishy, not just hoops. Shoot, I think all THREE (including Fouts) look fishy.

I agree they look fishy. But that's kind of my point. Hoops is involved in two, seemingly, seperate incidents. Swaggs and Fouts? One each. Two is greater than one.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

And something seems fishy, depiste Swaggs and Hoops playing it off, about two people fighting and then coming out as such friends today.

To be fair, I can understand how it might seem fishy, but at the same time, there is no denying that we had a fight and also no denying that neither of us were injured or killed, so I guess that is why we are both kind of uncertain about it.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

To be fair, I can understand how it might seem fishy, but at the same time, there is no denying that we had a fight and also no denying that neither of us were injured or killed, so I guess that is why we are both kind of uncertain about it.

Yeah a fight to the tie. Was really worth making me cranky today.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I agree they look fishy. But that's kind of my point. Hoops is involved in two, seemingly, seperate incidents. Swaggs and Fouts? One each. Two is greater than one.

Ok, I understand - you're not suggesting that Fouts is cleared, you just see more things pointing at hoops.

I think I'm still voting for Chubby, who has been very quiet. I am sure that one of Swaggs and hoops is Orzhov - if they were both Dmir. I am reasonably sure that Alan is clear. I don't know about Fouts, but probably either hoops or Fouts is dmir.

[st.cronin]

dola ... didn't finish the sentence "if they were both Dmir" ... I think they would have had a more plausible sounding explanation for the fighting.

[Schmidty]

This game is really confusing me. And I mean that in an honest way, not the "I'm lazy or hiding something" way.

[Swaggs]

To me, the question is whether hoops is lying about whether he was spying or if Fouts is lying about what hoops was going to do to him. I don't think I have said or done anything that cannot be easily explained--the only information I have withheld have been a description of my powers (and that includes exactly what I did last night, since that would really narrow the choices for the bad guys, which doesn't benefit us).

My opinion is that Fouts had nothing to gain by divulging his information, so I really don't suspect him at all. I had no indication that hoops was set to kill anyone, nor any indication that he had any planned interaction with Fouts, whether it be to spy on him or to kill him, but hoops has verified that he did, in fact, target Fouts.

I voted for hoops yesterday because I found it curious that he was unaware of the ability to bribe in this game, as it seems like a few people, including myself, were made aware of bribing at the beginning of the game. I also think it is suspicious that he is claiming the ability to do two things during the night. I wish that someone else could clarify whether or not they have both magical and occupational abilities. I'm not asking for specific descriptions, just if anyone else thinks this is possible.

Right now, I am leaning towards hoops.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

To be fair, I can understand how it might seem fishy, but at the same time, there is no denying that we had a fight and also no denying that neither of us were injured or killed, so I guess that is why we are both kind of uncertain about it.

i have been thinking about this all day long, and again, i cant be positive because i dont know how much Anxiety is straying from the M:TG concepts regarding us and our roles, but it is rather difficult to kill another wizard that can defend himself without summoning a good number of creatures (not to say that we cant be killed easily when we arent defending ourselves). direct damage spells are pretty common, but they arent usually very powerful, and they are easily countered if you have the correct magic to counter them.

let me explain that last part a little more....there are 5 colors of magic in M:TG...black, blue, red, white, and green. on the back of the cards there is a Star that has a colored dot on each point. if you look at the two dots that are opposite any single point, they are the direct opponents of that color, while the two adjacent colors are complimentary. for instance the white dot is between blue and green, and across from red and black. in terms of spells, a sorcerer using white magic will have loads of counterspells to defend against a sorcerer using black or red magic.

so if we consider ourselves to be using White magic, it would be logical that our sworn enemies, the Dimir, would be using either Black or Red. using that theory, it makes perfect sense for swaggs and hoops to have been unable to kill each other in battle last night.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

To me, the question is whether hoops is lying about whether he was spying or if Fouts is lying about what hoops was going to do to him. I don't think I have said or done anything that cannot be easily explained--the only information I have withheld have been a description of my powers (and that includes exactly what I did last night, since that would really narrow the choices for the bad guys, which doesn't benefit us).

My opinion is that Fouts had nothing to gain by divulging his information, so I really don't suspect him at all. I had no indication that hoops was set to kill anyone, nor any indication that he had any planned interaction with Fouts, whether it be to spy on him or to kill him, but hoops has verified that he did, in fact, target Fouts.

I voted for hoops yesterday because I found it curious that he was unaware of the ability to bribe in this game, as it seems like a few people, including myself, were made aware of bribing at the beginning of the game. I also think it is suspicious that he is claiming the ability to do two things during the night. I wish that someone else could clarify whether or not they have both magical and occupational abilities. I'm not asking for specific descriptions, just if anyone else thinks this is possible.

Right now, I am leaning towards hoops.

I have occupational and non-occupational (although also non-magical) abilities. I don't have multiple night actions, though. Hoops story sounds somewhat plausible. Here's a point I'm still confused by, and I'm sorry if this has gotten by me: Hoops claims to have been involved in these three activities. Have Swaggs, Fouts, and Alan all confirmed that it was, indeed HOOPS who they interacted with? If so, how can the fact that he is claiming to have multiple night actions be used against him, when clearly he is involved in multiple night actions? If even one of those players did not know that hoops was part of their night, then I agree, hoops might be looking bad. But if Swaggs, Fouts, and Alan all knew that hoops was part of their night, then I can easily imagine a scenario where all four of those players are clean.

[saldana]

also, i know some people dont necessarily like when past WW history is brought into stuff...but Hoops and Alan have quite a little streak of games going where they have NEVER been on the same team....from what i know of Hoopsguy, if he were able to make a conversion, his evil little mind would find it infinitely amusing to convert alan, thus ending that streak.


and leave me alone. i already voted

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I have occupational and non-occupational (although also non-magical) abilities. I don't have multiple night actions, though. Hoops story sounds somewhat plausible. Here's a point I'm still confused by, and I'm sorry if this has gotten by me: Hoops claims to have been involved in these three activities. Have Swaggs, Fouts, and Alan all confirmed that it was, indeed HOOPS who they interacted with? If so, how can the fact that he is claiming to have multiple night actions be used against him, when clearly he is involved in multiple night actions? If even one of those players did not know that hoops was part of their night, then I agree, hoops might be looking bad. But if Swaggs, Fouts, and Alan all knew that hoops was part of their night, then I can easily imagine a scenario where all four of those players are clean.

Although I did not knowingly or deliberately protect Fouts, it seems pretty clear that he and I were both part of the same encounter with hoops, so that is likely a single action, plus the encounter with Alan. Alan will have to speak for himself, but my interaction was, without a doubt, with hoops.

The fact that you have multiple actions available to you, but only one per night (if I am understanding correctly) could be important. Hoops has admitted that he both initiated the contact with Alan AND that he intended to spy on Fouts, so he was seemingly the catalyst for both actions.

[saldana]

regarding the ability of hoops to do more than one thing last night...IMO, that does fit into the abilities of a powerful character in M:TG. many of the more powerful creatures have different abilities that can be powered by different colors or amounts of mana (or in this case, a one time per game ability)

[Alan T]

I was told clearly that Hoops spent the time with me talking about faith, sin and forgiveness. I did not seek him out, I do not have any abilities to seek him out.



And in response to Saldana, that streak was broken last game when at least for a bit Hoops and i were on the same team. My initial thinking though was that Hoops came after me last night because I felt i had built a decent amount of trust the first day with what I revealed. Thats why my initial comments was expecting hoops to be rather disapointed when he found out he failed.

The news about the encounter with swaggs I had no idea about, but I think it also still points as hoops as guilty. I voted for hoops yesterday and havent seen any reason not to today as you can imagine since I've pushed him most of the day.

[st.cronin]

Well, I think there's enough of a consensus for me to move my vote then.

UNVOTE CHUBBY

VOTE HOOPSGUY

I guess the upside is that if he turns out to be good, we have Fouts for sure.

[Barkeep49]

Let me just say that I had no clue that some of you were suspeptable to bribes prior to some of you announcing it.

[hoopsguy]

I'm going to be extremely frustrated with being lynched because people don't believe I could have two night actions. That is a mechanic of the roles that I have been assigned. Nothing more, nothing less.

In terms of why I was targeting Fouts, I was trying to determine if he is associated with the 3rd faction. It is important for me to locate this party as early as possible in the game.

With that in mind, I suppose I am a better kill for tonight than some other players but I'm greatly frustrated that Fouts can come in and say "someone was going to kill me" and I'm now the guilty party. I've gone through painstaking detail today to document the events of last night, the details of my public role, and now more info about my private role even though I think it puts me at greater risk going forward.

[saldana]

actually hoops, if you read back a few posts, i state that i have no problem with you having 2 actions at night. what i dont understand is why all of you are trying to get me all the time. the thing that damns you to me is that fouts has absolutely nothing to gain from saying someone was trying to kill him unless that is the truth...if he is lying, we will know in about 90 minutes, and then he dies tomorrow....unless we are way off in our assumptions about the ratio in this game, its way to early to make that kind of an exchange for the Dimir.

[st.cronin]

Hoops, I'm sure you've already gone over this, but can you explain what you were trying to do last night?

And could one or more of his accusers explain what they think he was trying to do? Convert Alan AND kill Fouts? That hardly makes any sense.

[Swaggs]

I am going to go ahead and place my vote, in case there are any kind of last minute silencing spells:

Vote hoopsguy

I don't feel anywhere certain that hoops is a bad guy, but I think we either get him today or Fouts tomorrow, which is a pretty good turnaround for us. And then, we have the close vote from Day 1 to look at, which could be very helpful.

[Barkeep49]

I think hoops is suggesting that he spied on Fouts but someone different tried to kill him. Hboops: that is your assertion, correct?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I am going to go ahead and place my vote, in case there are any kind of last minute silencing spells:

Vote hoopsguy

I don't feel anywhere certain that hoops is a bad guy, but I think we either get him today or Fouts tomorrow, which is a pretty good turnaround for us. And then, we have the close vote from Day 1 to look at, which could be very helpful.

I'm not sold on there being any set number of bad guys in your group of three. It could easily turn out that there are 0, 1, or 2 baddies and none of those would surprise me. Only 3 bad guys would be a number that would be surprising to me.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'm not sold on there being any set number of bad guys in your group of three. It could easily turn out that there are 0, 1, or 2 baddies and none of those would surprise me. Only 3 bad guys would be a number that would be surprising to me.

Do you not agree that either hoops or Fouts are lying?

Fouts made it pretty clear that someone kept him from being killed by hoops last night.

Hoops made it pretty clear that he only inended to spy on Fouts.

[hoopsguy]

OK, here is the sequence of actions:
1.) Using my PUBLIC role (Religious Leader) I spoke with AlanT to determine if he was devout. I'm able to identify the devout. He had indicated he could not be bribed, which means that he was immune to material corruption. I wanted to know if this translated to being strong in our faith as well. I learned that he is indeed one of the faithful.
2.) Using my PRIVATE role (fill in the blank) I sought a person that was of a 3rd order. My selection of Fouts was pretty random. In the process of casting my spell to learn about Fouts (which we have called spying, using a term from other WW games) I was under attack from Swaggs.

It is important to note that I DID NOT INITIATE AN ATTACK ON SWAGGS OR FOUTS! I don't have those abilities for either of my roles.

The fact that I was not harmed, in any kind of permanent way, by Swaggs made me suspect that he may not be a Dimir. The fact that he did not come out gunning for me today made me think it was even more likely that we had somehow become caught in a cross-fire of magic. I don't know how to explain it, but it is Day 2 in an unfamiliar game. I'm sorry I don't have more info to give you on this point.

I was silenced for an hour today around lunchtime, shortly after Swaggs came on the board and about two hours before Fouts showed up. During that time I did not attract any votes as Swaggs and I tried to determine what had transpired last night.

Fouts then comes out and says that he was going to be murdered in his sleep, were in not for the intervention of another party. Which puts me pretty squarely in the crosshairs, based on the posts already made that day.


AlanT and Swaggs have both acknowledged our encounters last night. But the way this has been twisted, I launched attacks on 2-3 Orzhov last night. I think this is borderline ridiculous; only an idiot GM makes a bad guy have that many abilities (where is Lathum to back me on this? )

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Do you not agree that either hoops or Fouts are lying?

Fouts made it pretty clear that someone kept him from being killed by hoops last night.

Hoops made it pretty clear that he only inended to spy on Fouts.

I agree, I asked Fouts to make sure I understood what he said correctly. he said he was told Hoops tried to kill him.


Thats black and white, either he is lying or hoops is. 50/50 and I'll go against hoops since I've suspected him this entire game before going against fouts here

[hoopsguy]

Barkeep, I'm making it perfectly clear I did not attempt to kill Fouts - only to learn if he was a member of the 3rd faction. He is the one saying that someone attempted to kill him while he slept.

[hoopsguy]

Votes as of Post #394:
Day 2 votes
Fouts - Hoopsguy (335)

Hoopsguy - Fouts (336), KWhit (346), Barkeep (361), Saldana (364), Cronin (383), Swaggs (388)

[st.cronin]

Well, I don't know what to think.

[hoopsguy]

The guy who I talked to last night (AlanT) has not indicated that I tried to harm him.

The guy who attacked me last night (Swaggs) has not indicated that I harmed him while defending myself.

The guy who slept the night away (Fouts) indicated that I tried to kill him.

But I'm the guy you sacrifice in the 50/50 decision

[hoopsguy]

If you want to go 50/50, vote Fouts today and take me tomorrow. But I'm going to vault up the trusted lists quickly if you lynch Fouts tonight and then it doesn't work out as a 50/50 for us. Instead we collect more information tonight and go after another Orzhov tomorrow.

I know that 50/50 seems appealing, but it isn't as appealing as 100/0 and I frankly don't like being the guy sacrified so we can get a Dimir when we have one right now.

[hoopsguy]

Bad typo - we go after another Dimir tomorrow Stupid faction names.

[st.cronin]

Alan, what do you think Hoops was trying to do last night, in regards to your experience?