The 2011 NBA Offseason---Stern says no

[RainMaker]

He now has to stand just behind Bettman as the worst commissioner in sports.

[sterlingice]

Bud Selig?

SI

[stevew]

The NBA having like 7 less teams in the 80s ensured more superstar pairings, plus a higher level of play.

I have to think we will lose 4 or 6 teams with a prolonged stoppage. I also hope the St. Louis Spirit owners emerge getting fucked over. We really don't lose much if the Pacers/Spurs/Nuggets evacuate their current teams.

[stevew]

This whole thing shows why we need to phase out and silence baby boomers like Stern and Hunter. Younger people would work this out.

[sterlingice]

Well, no one is on the same planet of suck as Bettman

SI

[Julio Riddols]

Every time I hear this lockout is close to over I get ready to turn on the TV the next day and see that they stopped talks and are just as far apart as they've ever been. I'm guessing Stern is one of those assholes that says "ok, fine, I'll trade you this for that" and then when you say "ok, then lets get this shit done" He says "But wait..." and farts in your general direction.

[JPhillips]

Stern is just doing what the owners expect him to do. There are a significant number of owners willing to sacrifice the season to break the union.

[Ksyrup]

This is just a general comment on an issue that's been aggravating me since the NFL lockout and now into the NBA lockout/legal battle... I really wish people (both media and general dumbasses) would stop bringing up the state of the economy and how many people are out of work as a reason why these leagues are stupid for fighting over money. Now, I understand that the perception issues are not good for business - millionaires fighting with billionaires and all that - but a lot of what I read/hear is not even that nuanced. The argument is simply that these people all have so much money that it's hard to believe they won't stop fighting when there are people who don't have jobs and are struggling to make ends meet. And I think that's just a ridiculous statement. It's like arguing that someone who's weighing offers from Harvard, Stanford, and Duke should stop making such a big deal about it and just pick one because there are kids in some places who can't qualify for college or can't pay for it. One has nothing to do with the other. I've about had all I can stomach of listening to these arguments.

[LloydLungs]

Agreed, Ksyrup -- in fact I always roll my eyes with every wave of public outrage that comes with pro sports labor disputes. I generally don't get mad at all. I know what I'm getting into as a pro sports fan. This sort of thing is going to happen from time to time. Regardless of the size of the pie, I understand that both sides are going to try to get every bit of that pie that's coming to them, and it may cost a few games sometimes. If you don't realize this comes with the territory of pro sports fandom, you're hopelessly naive.

That said, I am getting a little angry now, only because I believe the players got as much as they were going to get. So any time lost from here on out will just be time spent watching that dawn on them. Seems like a waste.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This is just a general comment on an issue that's been aggravating me since the NFL lockout and now into the NBA lockout/legal battle... I really wish people (both media and general dumbasses) would stop bringing up the state of the economy and how many people are out of work as a reason why these leagues are stupid for fighting over money. Now, I understand that the perception issues are not good for business - millionaires fighting with billionaires and all that - but a lot of what I read/hear is not even that nuanced. The argument is simply that these people all have so much money that it's hard to believe they won't stop fighting when there are people who don't have jobs and are struggling to make ends meet. And I think that's just a ridiculous statement. It's like arguing that someone who's weighing offers from Harvard, Stanford, and Duke should stop making such a big deal about it and just pick one because there are kids in some places who can't qualify for college or can't pay for it. One has nothing to do with the other. I've about had all I can stomach of listening to these arguments.

I don't think that's entirely fair. I think if you're using it in the sense of "The economy sucks, people are out of work, the players should cave" or "The economy sucks, people are out of work, the owners should cave", yes, that's incorrect.

But I damn well can sit here and say "The economy sucks, people are out of work, and you guys are all idiots because you can't sort this out". That's just perspective- the economy does suck and there are a lot of people out of work and almost none of them will not make in a lifetime what these people make in a year. And those people won't necessarily be coming back in droves to a sport if they lose a season. How many "I left baseball after the strike and just don't care" people are out there? I heard someone use that line last week.

So, don't expect sympathy and acceptance from someone without a house or struggling to pay bills. You can say: "It's $3B over 10 years", that's huge money, to be sure. But it's also of a $50B total pot over that same period. So, for someone who is worrying about those lower blocks of Maslow's hierarchy, they're not exactly going to be accepting of millionaires and billionaires squabbling over what kind of haircut to do to these numbers and you may not find as many fans eager to come back to the product. At this point, they're fighting over percentages on a shrinking pie which, yeah, is stupid and tone deaf for all of them.

SI

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

But I damn well can sit here and say "The economy sucks, people are out of work, and you guys are all idiots because you can't sort this out". That's just perspective- the economy does suck and there are a lot of people out of work and almost none of them will not make in a lifetime what these people make in a year. And those people won't necessarily be coming back in droves to a sport if they lose a season. How many "I left baseball after the strike and just don't care" people are out there? I heard someone use that line last week.
SI

This is where the nuance comes in. What I tried to explain is I understand the perception/marketing side of what's going on, and how people have a right to be upset that the NBA is fighting over millions of dollars and then will expect those without jobs or struggling to get by to celebrate when they final fix the mess. But that's not what I'm hearing/reading - it's mostly just flat-out economic hyperbole about them being millionaires and we're all suffering and they should be ashamed of themselves. And it boils down to the fact that people are upset because a talented NBA player who's worth millions and millions of dollars in our society is fighting to earn all he can earn while people with either less talent/skill or in a field that doesn't highly monetize its skills are struggling. I don't see what one has to do with the other, or why - again, outside of the marketing component - the economy has to be tied to the economic issues the owners/players are negotiating over.

They're just fighting over cents on the dollar right now, or maybe just principle - the job of NBA player and the business of the league are both very profitable, regardless of the condition of the economy. So what other people's struggles have to do with NBA negotiations, and why that should change their stance on continuing to negotiate in their best interests, I don't get.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

D1 College teams shot 47.8% on 2 pointers and 34.4% on 3 pointers last year. Not much different than the NBA.

Some teams like to use the shotclock and pass the ball to not emphasize 1 on 1 play the NBA is known for. Other college teams run and gun. Wide variety of offenses and defenses in the college game so you really cant judge it off of the 1 game you might have seen last year.

Florida State Seminoles vs. Harvard Crimson - Recap - November 25, 2011 - ESPN

and FSU's earlier games, etcetera. There's plenty of stinkers out there.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Florida State Seminoles vs. Harvard Crimson - Recap - November 25, 2011 - ESPN

and FSU's earlier games, etcetera. There's plenty of stinkers out there.

I would not argue that the college game has plenty of stinker games. But over the course of the season the shooting percentages from the field are very similar.

I prefer the college game because of the different styles and the emphasis on team play. NBA is a lot of one on one with 1 or 2 passes mixed in. The players are too athletic and recover too quickly on defense for passing to be a great advantage. I like the more unathletic game

[stevew]

Crossing fingers that a deal can be reached for Xmas basketball.

[Young Drachma]

Tentative agreement is done, according to NBA.com and the NYTimes confirms. 66-game season (according to ESPN reporter via Twitter) and the season begins on Dec. 25th.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Tentative agreement is done, according to NBA.com and the NYTimes confirms. 66-game season (according to ESPN reporter via Twitter) and the season begins on Dec. 25th.

There was a rumor the last time they met that the owners were pushing for a 2 years removed from high school to be draft eligible rule and the players were likely to concede. I'm interested to see if this is true.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Atocep

There was a rumor the last time they met that the owners were pushing for a 2 years removed from high school to be draft eligible rule and the players were likely to concede. I'm interested to see if this is true.

No indications that anything drastic like this has been included in this deal.

The winners and losers of a new CBA - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

No indications that anything drastic like this has been included in this deal.

The winners and losers of a new CBA - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN

I don't consider that drastic, since they already have the one year in place.

Sigh...I really do wish basketball went with baseball's system. Go pro out of high school if you want, but if you choose college, you're there through your junior year.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't consider that drastic, since they already have the one year in place.

Sigh...I really do wish basketball went with baseball's system. Go pro out of high school if you want, but if you choose college, you're there through your junior year.

+1

[stevew]

This 3 week offseason is going to be crazy. After a prolonged battle about financial restraint, I cant wait to see the insane deals that will get handed out.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

No indications that anything drastic like this has been included in this deal.

The winners and losers of a new CBA - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN

It wouldn't be a drastic change. It will be one of the "B-list" items to be negotiated in good faith over the next week or two. I think there's a decent chance they'll settle on 2 years of college; the players can offer that in order to get something that'll actually affect their current members (for example, less stringent drug testing).

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by stevew

This 3 week offseason is going to be crazy. After a prolonged battle about financial restraint, I cant wait to see the insane deals that will get handed out.

This will be the first exhibit of the player salaries spiraling out of control during the next CBA negotiations.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't consider that drastic, since they already have the one year in place.

Sigh...I really do wish basketball went with baseball's system. Go pro out of high school if you want, but if you choose college, you're there through your junior year.

Main difference is, baseball development takes years and no one gives two hoots about college baseball. College basketball is the defacto minors and the NBA doesn't want to babysit HS kids, even if they're ready to play.

That said, it seems you all might get closer to your wish:

But before an agreement can be voted on, the two sides also will need to resolve a litany of what have come to be known as "B-List" issues, including the age limit, the rookie salary scale, player discipline and drug testing. The players presented the league with a list of these unresolved issues, totaling six pages, during a negotiating session earlier this month. Stern was careful to note that these issues still need to be resolved before the league's Board of Governors can vote on the deal.

"We'll call a board vote in due course, because we want to do that at such time that our understandings are adequately represented on pieces of paper," he said.
A quick resolution of these B-List items is not necessarily a foregone conclusion. A number of these issues -- including the age limit for league eligibility -- have been contentious. "It ain't over 'til it's over," cautioned one source connected to the players' side.

Analyzing the new NBA labor agreement - ESPN

[Big Fo]

I've always been conflicted on the age limit/time from high school to the NBA rule. In terms of quality of play and entertainment I think making the kids wait 2-3 years before joining the NBA would be best.

But of course that isn't really fair on the players themselves, making them go play for free for a few years just so they can develop some more, eliminate some of the risk for NBA talent evaluators, make it so more of the fans have heard of the players their team is drafting, etc.

[Young Drachma]

Basketball more than any other sport has tons of hands in the pot with a workforce capable of competing earlier than the other major sports. I don't believe boosters, colleges, shoe guys and everyone around them ought to profit before players do. But for the NBA's purposes, there's no incentive to let them in early. Mostly because those guys take money off the table for guys already playing.

Paternalistic arguments about people needing college are a bit overblown and sure they can go overseas or do the D-League, but...too many mouths to feed in the current system for it to go away.

That said, a two-year age limit wouldn't be the worst thing in the world from the league's perspective and might make it a bit more watchable. It'd be better if more players went overseas.

[TroyF]

What a shock. The players fake legal battle failed once the guys realized this crap was going to take years to figure out in the courts and the owners didn't give a crap. The players could have had this same deal over a month ago until Garnett, Kobe and Paulie decided to get involved. Good job guys. You succeeded in making sure rookies and fringe players who really could have used checks to miss some.

Idiots.

[Mustang]

Crap. And here I thought I was going to be spared Bucks bastketball for the year.

[Atocep]

So the new amnesty rule has a modified waiver process attached to the players where teams under the cap bid on the waived players. The team that submits the bid that covers the highest percentage of the waived player's contract gets the player. It removes the player's choice on where he goes, but is done to prevent the over the cap contenders from landing these guys for the minimum.

There's still speculation that the players will concede a 2 and done rule for college players and in exchange get something they want elsewhere. No one sees the players fighting too hard for guys that aren't part of the union yet.

[Atocep]

In other news.

China could block NBA players return - NBA - Yahoo! Sports

The Chinese Basketball Association is showing no inclination to let unhappy NBA players out of their contracts for the 2011-12 season, and will likely mandate they not receive clearance letters to return to the NBA until the Chinese season ends in March, sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Wilson Chandler(notes), Kenyon Martin(notes), J.R. Smith(notes) and Aaron Brooks(notes) are the four top NBA players under contract in China, and several sources involved in those contract entanglements said escape clauses won’t be allowed with the impending end of the NBA lockout.

The article goes on to explain that these brilliant players signed contracts with Chinese basketball teams without escape clauses and were told from the beginning that they wouldn't be allowed out of their deals until the Chinese basketball season ends in March.

[stevew]

Each team will play at least 1 back to back to back. And as many as 3. Odds that the Heat, Lakers or Celts play more than 1? I'm guessing Cleve, Minnesota and Sac all play 3.

[RainMaker]

That's a guarantee. Prepare for some really shitty regular season basketball. They should only be playing 55-60 games.

[stevew]

I know the Olympics puts an end date on this season...I honestly wish they would have let it go longer.

[stevew]

I do like the modified waiver claim on amnesty players. Means a team like my Cavs could ballast BDiddy and open up 15m in cap space. And then bid for a couple solid players using the opened space.

If Brandon Roy gets amnesty released, he is worth a limited exposure flyer. You could wager 3M a season that he is able to rebound from knee issues. He'd be great to have as a 7th man. I'd also imagine that Rashard Lewis becomes a hot commodity if released. His shooting is worth 5-7m/season, but certainly not 22m.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the waiver system too. I think it could help put some decent players in nice spots.

[IrishHand]

FWIW, it's unclear what the secondary amnesty waiver process will look like. Those guys will go through normal waivers (where teams can claim their existing deals)...then some sort of secondary waiver process where teams with cap room can bid on them. I don't think, though, that they've decided (or at least disclosed) the particulars - will there be some sort of floor (eg. X% of contracted salary), will teams be able to use the MLE for their blind bids?

It would be great if it was unrestricted - meaning teams could bid any amount over the min salary - since that would really help teams with cap room.

[stevew]

Knowing the CBA fiasco with 3 of their best players, plus that Nene will get a Max offer or three....the Nuggets might go 9-56? I don't think they even have 2 good players on their roster. Apologies if I'm forgetting several guys.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by IrishHand

FWIW, it's unclear what the secondary amnesty waiver process will look like. Those guys will go through normal waivers (where teams can claim their existing deals)...then some sort of secondary waiver process where teams with cap room can bid on them. I don't think, though, that they've decided (or at least disclosed) the particulars - will there be some sort of floor (eg. X% of contracted salary), will teams be able to use the MLE for their blind bids?

It would be great if it was unrestricted - meaning teams could bid any amount over the min salary - since that would really help teams with cap room.

• 2011 CBA: One player can be waived prior to the start of any season (only one player can be amnestied during the agreement, and contracts signed under the new CBA are not eligible). The salary of the waived player will not count toward the salary cap or luxury tax. Teams with cap room can submit competing offers to acquire an amnestied player (at a reduced rate) before he hits free agency and can sign with any team.

• Who benefits? As with the amnesty provision in the 2005 agreement, this provision allows teams to kick one bad contract to the curb. The benefits to amnesty are greater now than they were in 2005 -- 100 percent of the player's salary is removed for both cap and tax purposes. The other big change is that teams are allowed to pocket their amnesty card to use later -- so teams that managed their cap well to this point benefit because they don't have to use it or lose it.

Teams with cap room can benefit greatly from the amnesty provision by being able to submit a competing offer to claim an amnestied player at a reduced rate. For example, if Cleveland uses its amnesty provision on Baron Davis, a team that is $5 million below the salary cap can submit a $5 million offer to acquire Davis' contract. If that offer is the highest, the team acquires Davis and is responsible for $5 million of his salary -- with Cleveland responsible for the balance. This happens before Davis becomes a free agent and can sign on his own with a team like Miami.

Larry Coon breaks shit down here: How new NBA deal compares to last one - ESPN

[whomario]

Happy that the NBA will be back, but i think 66 games in that span is way too much ...

Yeah, those guys that went to China are stuck fo a while, won´t get clearance by their teams no matter what (either they play and get paid or they won´t play then they get suspended and don´t get paid and still won´t get released).
But they knew that and propably get paid very well, so i could imagine a guy like Smith and especially Martin is just fine with that. Chandler and Brooks propably not so much, but their bad.

The guys who signed in Europe basically all have out-clauses to return, other than a couple fringe players that chose the season-long deals over sitting arround and waiting.

overview : DraftExpress - NBA Draft, NCAA/International Basketball Website. (stats and if there´s an opt-out clause or not)

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

Each team will play at least 1 back to back to back. And as many as 3. Odds that the Heat, Lakers or Celts play more than 1? I'm guessing Cleve, Minnesota and Sac all play 3.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're talking crazy here

SI

[sterlingice]

I'm curious what Daryl Morey can do with a 3 week offseason, some cap space, tradeable young assets, and some inevitably head scratching amnesty cases from other teams.

It's so different to cheer for a team that is on the cutting edge in one sport (Rockets) while suffering through one that's stuck in the dark ages of another sport (Royals)

SI

[korme]

Marcy Marc Gasol would be great in Houston

[stevew]

The schedule is out. Holy shit is it bad. I see a couple 5 games in 7 days situations for the Cavs. I wish they would have dropped at least 6 more games....this is too much basketball in a short window.

[molson]

Originally Posted by stevew

The schedule is out. Holy shit is it bad. I see a couple 5 games in 7 days situations for the Cavs. I wish they would have dropped at least 6 more games....this is too much basketball in a short window.

I wonder how coaches will approach this. Ya, it's a kind of sprint, but it's a still a long sprint - 4+ months of a regular season. I can see Doc Rivers giving his stars some serious rest or even games off.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by molson

I wonder how coaches will approach this. Ya, it's a kind of sprint, but it's a still a long sprint - 4+ months of a regular season. I can see Doc Rivers giving his stars some serious rest or even games off.

Yah, I suspect 11th and 12th men on the rotation will be happy about the new schedule.

[RainMaker]

Lakers, Thunder, and Clippers not coming to Chicago. Glad I buy season tickets to see us play the Bucks a couple times.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lakers, Thunder, and Clippers not coming to Chicago. Glad I buy season tickets to see us play the Bucks a couple times.

Wanted to go to a couple Sunday Cavs games(my only day off). The options? Nets, Kings, Rockets, Magic. Sigh.