Shooting at Connecticut School

[DougW]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Yeah, Cruz was his favorite player.

I'm going back to avoiding all of this stuff. I can't handle it.

I'm having a really hard time with this. I have a 5 year old, and he was with his Grandparents all weekend. I work 6 pm - 6 am, so - when he got home, I was at work. I woke him up @7 and made him breakfast, and sent him off to school (as usual) .. but I can't sleep. My sleep time is while he's at school, and I'm just really excited to see him and spend some time with him.

It just blows me away that this could happen to such innocents.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Because you're having to ward off invading armies from your house on a regular basis?

In response I can only say

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

This is precisely why I don't want gun control debated in this thread. Completely predictable. Enough.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by whomario

point of interest: How often do weapons get used successfully for self defense ? In comparison to (say) baseball bats ?

Also, the constitution is from 1791. I get that people would cite it and think it´s still relevant, but isn´t it a little weak as an argument in modern times ? I mean, when i´m writing my current paper on modern media development i´m not going to get my information off a book from the 60s.

on the "sending them back to school" issue: There´s just no right answer to that one, especially with kids that young. They could not get the significance (of the building, not the event) or they could be scared off (and associate it with the event) going into any other big building or any other school.

Take no offense to this, but I really don't think you can realistically be involved in this conversation. People from outside of the US do not understand our culture well enough when it comes to issues such as gun control.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Take no offense to this, but I really don't think you can realistically be involved in this conversation. People from outside of the US do not understand our culture well enough when it comes to issues such as gun control.

Or the freedoms that we have or the unique socio-demographics cultures imbedded in our society and their relentless manifestations in our pop culture (movies, tv, sports, etc.).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by whomario

point of interest: How often do weapons get used successfully for self defense ? In comparison to (say) baseball bats ?

I'm going out on a limb and figuring it's within bounds to point you toward a column that discusses that subject.

The short answer is that there is not an absolutely definitive answer to the question.

[molson]

Originally Posted by whomario

Also, the constitution is from 1791. I get that people would cite it and think it´s still relevant, but isn´t it a little weak as an argument in modern times ?

The constitution isn't just a point in an argument, it's the law. There will always be tension between security and rights. After 9/11 many on the right thought of 4th amendment jurisprudence as being a little old fashioned too. That being said, the constitution can be changed if there's strong enough support for it (though this is rarely attempted anymore), and the certainly the constitution has been interpreted more and more to be extremely flexible. Most realistic gun control legislation would be easily constitutional, so it's just an academic discussion anyway.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Take no offense to this, but I really don't think you can realistically be involved in this conversation. People from outside of the US do not understand our culture well enough when it comes to issues such as gun control.

which is the reason why i generally stay way clear of almost all political discussion in here and in this case your post is duly noted Although isn´t that standard procedure in nearly every other aspect of live (corporations f.e.) ? Get an outside perception ?

Plus gun controll is a big issue here as well (hunting as well as sport shooting are very popular here and the discussion is centered around wether or not theese groups should have the weapons at home rather than at a secured place with limited access), germany propably had the most such incidents in europe the last couple years (6 shootings in schools in the last 10 years)

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm going out on a limb and figuring it's within bounds to point you toward a column that discusses that subject.

The short answer is that there is not an absolutely definitive answer to the question.

thanks, i´ll check that out.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Take no offense to this, but I really don't think you can realistically be involved in this conversation. People from outside of the US do not understand our culture well enough when it comes to issues such as gun control.

Couldn't disagree with this more. In fact, the viewpoints of outsiders are always especially valuable (and this applies not just to the US, but to every country) because, looking from the outside, they can see the forest for the trees--they can spot what is particular and peculiar to each culture, and they can help others to recognize that there are other ways of doing things, ways that might be better than how we currently do things.

Also, there is no "our culture" in the US. There are a variety of cultures co-existing in a single, very large country.

[Buccaneer]

Which was why I said cultures. The "Wild West" was a fairly unique culture in our history (Australia and few others have/had that as well), not to mention the plurality arising from our Southern cultures.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Responses like that is the reason why we cannot have a dialog, not to mention Blackie's vitrol.

First of all, it's vitriol, not "vitrol".

Secondly, If someone's reaction to hearing about the disaster was instantly to go to "they are coming to take my guns", then they're a horrible human being. There are no two ways about it. Any decent person would, you know, actually reflect on the situation more than 2 seconds before going there. Those who decided that they'd use this to further their own persecution complex without giving one moment of thought to the actual victims are beyond contempt. If anyone finds themselves reflected in that statement - which was specifically aimed at some of the assclowns in my office - then they know exactly what I think of them and need not reply. That's not vitriol, that's just plain simple honesty.

Oh, just in case anyone thinks otherwise - I am anti-gun control. But this has nothing to do with that. This is about being a friggin' human being.

[I. J. Reilly]

We need to figure something out as far as the “gun debate” goes. If there is no open outlet for that discussion half of us will be banned before the week is over. I'm sure many others are having a hard time biting their tongue's too.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The plan I've seen mentioned is to use a former school building (apparently unused now) in a nearby town at least for the near term.

Not sure what a long term solution will/would be. From a practical standpoint it takes time & money to build new from the ground up, it's a tough problem logistically that would challenge any school district anywhere I'm sure.

The school they plan to use is supposed to be ready in a couple days and is only 7 miles away from the current school, so it's a pretty good alternative for the rest of the year while they sort things out.

[DougW]

I find it a little weird that we've had a "no gun debate" rule set in. I think it's completely natural for this tragedy to lead to thoughts/discussion of gun control.

Personally, I've always been against gun control laws - but after this. My thoughts were : being horrified at the event, then worried/thankful for the safety of my own children, and then I started wondering about my gun control stance. I don't think when the dust settles I'll have flip-flopped, but this tragedy certainly has made me think .. "Hmmm, we need to look into this - ASAP."

[DougW]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The school they plan to use is supposed to be ready in a couple days and is only 7 miles away from the current school, so it's a pretty good alternative for the rest of the year while they sort things out.

Can they ? I mean, do they just happen to have an unused school (up to codes) sitting around and waiting ? Or, is the school currently in use - and thus could present some crowding problems ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DougW

I find it a little weird that we've had a "no gun debate" rule set in. I think it's completely natural for this tragedy to lead to thoughts/discussion of gun control.

Maybe I've missed something but as far as I know the subject is fair game in the Obama thread. The only restriction I've seen is in this thread (and the closure of a specific single-topic thread that opening shortly after news of the CT shootings broke).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DougW

Can they ? I mean, do they just happen to have an unused school (up to codes) sitting around and waiting ? Or, is the school currently in use - and thus could present some crowding problems ?

THe description I saw was "no longer in use". That's not too uncommon, there a fair number of those here in GA for example. Most of them have been rendered obsolete and/or surplus having been replaced by newer/bigger facilities. With the economy + the limited number of candidates to use a building of that size & design, they've become more difficult than ever to sell off.

edit to add: Here's a quote from the head of the CT superintendents association (he's talking about the likelihood of a Columbine-styled renovation/remodel "However, until -- or if -- that occurs, students are likely to attend a vacant middle school in Monroe, Conn., Cirasuolo said.

[DougW]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Maybe I've missed something but as far as I know the subject is fair game in the Obama thread. The only restriction I've seen is in this thread (and the closure of a specific single-topic thread that opening shortly after news of the CT shootings broke).

Gotcha. I was just going off what IJR said a few posts up. I knew about the thread deletion, and the rule in this thread - but I stay out of the politics threads, and didn't realize it was open for discussion there.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DougW

Can they ? I mean, do they just happen to have an unused school (up to codes) sitting around and waiting ? Or, is the school currently in use - and thus could present some crowding problems ?

In my girl's school district (a different town in Connecticut), they just recently redrew the school lines about 2 years ago to close down a few schools due to budget reasons.

I am assuming similar things happened elsewhere in the state, so likely was just an unused school that was not needed for budget reasons in the state. Just an assumption on my part though, nothing factual.

[DougW]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

THe description I saw was "no longer in use". That's not too uncommon, there a fair number of those here in GA for example. Most of them have been rendered obsolete and/or surplus having been replaced by newer/bigger facilities. With the economy + the limited number of candidates to use a building of that size & design, they've become more difficult than ever to sell off.

Oh that's awesome then. It turns my stomach to imagine a school full of elementary students having to try to learn their multiplication tables where they just witnessed what they did.

[JonInMiddleGA]

An anecdotal thing courtesy of my 9th grader (home for lunch on the first day of exam week) ... assembly for the HS this morning before starting exams, the administration described to the students how they were in the process of revising all lockdown procedures and that details would be forthcoming soon. Somewhere in the announcement the associate headmaster made reference to Columbine ... and my son said there was considerable discussion, particularly amongst the seniors behind him along the lines of "what's that? What's he talking about? what's Columbine?"

These are, FTR, some exceptional academic students, all of whom will be entering colleges & universities across the country and around the world next fall. (including several Ivy's and most of the top notch academic locations you'd want to name).

My child was beside himself.

[JonInMiddleGA]

FWIW on the vacant school. It was former middle school obsoleted after a sizable portion of the students enrolled at a magnet program at a nearby high school.

Here's the local story from 2010
Should the Town 'Mothball' Chalk Hill School? - Monroe, CT Patch

And one from yesterday that talks about the process used to determine whether the building was up to code and a good fit
UPDATE: Newtown Students to Attend Classes at Chalk Hill in Monroe - Monroe, CT Patch

edit to add: In case you're wondering, I found the name of the school from the lending system's website. From there the old article was easy to come up with.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

My questions would be:

Why would the lockdown procedures need revising?

And have they done any drills for lockdown this year? They should be done at least once a semester.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

An anecdotal thing courtesy of my 9th grader (home for lunch on the first day of exam week) ... assembly for the HS this morning before starting exams, the administration described to the students how they were in the process of revising all lockdown procedures and that details would be forthcoming soon. Somewhere in the announcement the associate headmaster made reference to Columbine ... and my son said there was considerable discussion, particularly amongst the seniors behind him along the lines of "what's that? What's he talking about? what's Columbine?"

These are, FTR, some exceptional academic students, all of whom will be entering colleges & universities across the country and around the world next fall. (including several Ivy's and most of the top notch academic locations you'd want to name).

My child was beside himself.

Kind of goes along with my earlier comment about perspective, history and society and not knowing anything that happened before last summer.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Couldn't disagree with this more. In fact, the viewpoints of outsiders are always especially valuable (and this applies not just to the US, but to every country) because, looking from the outside, they can see the forest for the trees--they can spot what is particular and peculiar to each culture, and they can help others to recognize that there are other ways of doing things, ways that might be better than how we currently do things.

Also, there is no "our culture" in the US. There are a variety of cultures co-existing in a single, very large country.

I agree with the first part and disagree with the second.

I agree that most Americans (myself included) that own guns are bat shit crazy about them. But no one is going to take my guns. I think that goes back to our founding fathers.

That being said, I don't own assault weapons and really don't see the point of anyone having them. My guns are for protection reasons only. I don't hunt.

I think America has a very distinct culture, but that argument is for another day.

[DougW]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

An anecdotal thing courtesy of my 9th grader (home for lunch on the first day of exam week) ... assembly for the HS this morning before starting exams, the administration described to the students how they were in the process of revising all lockdown procedures and that details would be forthcoming soon. Somewhere in the announcement the associate headmaster made reference to Columbine ... and my son said there was considerable discussion, particularly amongst the seniors behind him along the lines of "what's that? What's he talking about? what's Columbine?"

These are, FTR, some exceptional academic students, all of whom will be entering colleges & universities across the country and around the world next fall. (including several Ivy's and most of the top notch academic locations you'd want to name).

My child was beside himself.

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Kind of goes along with my earlier comment about perspective, history and society and not knowing anything that happened before last summer.

Actually, doesn't surprise me that much. If these kids were Seniors, that puts them at 3,4,5ish when Columbine went down. I'd imagine they wouldn't remember it themselves. I wouldn't think it'd be taught in school either. I could see parents bringing it up in one of the "be safe out there" talks - but not sure if the word "Columbine" would be emphasized enough to be remembered. My guess would be that most of them had heard "the story" of Columbine by their parents or through the grapevine, but don't associate the word to it.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by whomario

point of interest: How often do weapons get used successfully for self defense ? In comparison to (say) baseball bats ?

This year, I've personally responded to 2 incidents where a gun was used in self-defense and been working when 4 or 5 calls went out for the same thing. That's only when I'm working though, I have no idea how many more there were during my days off. Only 1 of those cases was reported by the media. Small sample size, but that's 1 city that's constantly reported as one of the safest in the country for its size.

I've never responded or saw a call that involved self-defense with anything other than hands or a gun.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

My questions would be:

Why would the lockdown procedures need revising?

And have they done any drills for lockdown this year? They should be done at least once a semester.

Yeah, they do a drill or two each year. Our campus is, honestly, almost impossible to secure short of drastic measures. It's an extremely open layout with a sort of (if you squint) small college campus feel. A creek runs through the middle of campus, there's a lake, etc etc. This map probably explains that part better than I can.

The property is bounded by a main highway to the west, a neighborhood street to the north & south, wooded area before more residential to the east. Short of surrounding it with prison style fencing, you can't really secure the campus itself.

The buildings themselves have relatively low security measures (beyond mag locks before & after hours) for routine operations, those same locks come into play for an actual lockdown for emergency reasons.

By the same token, it's an almost absurdly secure routine environment from within. Computers, book bags, personal items etc. are routinely left laying all over campus (to a shocking degree for this cynical parent) and yet there's only been two theft incidents in the past decade. (And both cases are part of Academy lore at this point, older students use the intensive measures put in place during those investigations to heighten the importance of the honor code for the younger students, ("we don't ever want to live through that again, and neither do you")

None of that, of course, safeguards one iota against a random attack or even a not-quite-random attack such as the one in CT. I go into that detail above just to give you some idea of the campus culture. And yet ... I know nearly all of the administrators reasonably well at this point. I have a great deal of confidence in their judgment on the appropriate level of crisis preparation & procedures and to this point have a great deal of faith in their ability to make any changes that seem necessary in light of recent events. It seems quite possible to me that the "revision" may be quite minor and that "review" might be a better description of what's going on now.

[AENeuman]

After Columbine and 9/11 our society decided that (in these cases) the greatest good for the greatest number of people was to shift to the burden of innocence to the accused. The result is if a student draws a gun on their homework certain adults are mandated to have the student prove they are not dangerous. Every person at an airport has to prove their innocence in an intrusive way. "Looking" and/or talking anti-American allows for unprecedented civil rights leniency.

The result, dramatic decrease in active student shootings and domestic terrorism. Perhaps this is the approach we need to take with this type mentally ill. There is a type here but we are in a place where in rights of the adult mentally ill individual outweigh the rights of group. I think that needs to change. I have a good friend who runs the program for the most troubled youth in the state of California. He has said many times that the only result of these kids is death or prison. That is it.

I am not sure what should be done (and I know this is dangerous legal grounds), but i am sure we can do more than wait for them to explode. they are bright and troubled young men, we should have the compassion for them and our community to do what is best.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DougW

Actually, doesn't surprise me that much. If these kids were Seniors, that puts them at 3,4,5ish when Columbine went down. I'd imagine they wouldn't remember it themselves. I wouldn't think it'd be taught in school either. I could see parents bringing it up in one of the "be safe out there" talks - but not sure if the word "Columbine" would be emphasized enough to be remembered. My guess would be that most of them had heard "the story" of Columbine by their parents or through the grapevine, but don't associate the word to it.

Compare and contrast to my kid, who spent part of his down time from studying this weekend to watch detailed programs on both Columbine and Va Tech. Afterwards he told me stuff about Columbine that even I didn't recall hearing.

Then again, he ain't quite typical. The maddest I've seen him related to school was when not a single classmate around 5th grade could name the starting date of WWII. He was looking for 1939, but said he would have settled for 12/7/41

[GoldenEagle]

I am still a bit confused as to how he managed to force his way into the school with bullets. I would think the doors be steel. The only thing I can figure is he shot-out the windows and climbed in through those.

[King of New York]

MSNBC reports that Adam Lanza heavily damaged his computer and removed the hard drive, taking pre-emptive steps to hinder investigators. I don't know enough about mental illness to know whether that sort of covering tracks and awareness of the future is typical or atypical. I guess it points to careful planning.

[McLovin]

It's time to reopen the state mental hospitals. Most communities turn a blind eye when it comes to the mentally ill and many end up in jail, towns way of dealing with them, or families just give up on them.

[GoldenEagle]

I read an article where he was enrolled and taking college classes at age 16. So I think that report lends more to his overall intelligence more so to his mental health problems.

[DougW]

I guess school officials worried about him quite early, but didn't think he was any danger to harm others. Their concern was him being bullied or harming himself. Apparantly he was assigned a psychologist, and taken out of school to be home schooled, after his mother had "battled with" the school district to make sure he was getting the support he needed. Seemed his parents had divorced, and both appeared active. (He lived with his mother, but his father paid $250,000 a year in child support - more than the court recommended - in return for joint custody of him and generous visiting rights. )

Connecticut school shooting: Adam Lanza was assigned psychologist - Telegraph

[DougW]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I read an article where he was enrolled and taking college classes at age 16. So I think that report lends more to his overall intelligence more so to his mental health problems.

Really ?
I just read : "Records show that Lanza achieved a high-school level of education but does not appear to have gone on to university or to have ever held a job. "

[DaddyTorgo]

It's all speculative at this point. The media is running way too far ahead of this thing and they don't have most of their facts straight.

The rush to "be first" in this new media landscape is totally destroying the accuracy of reporting (in all sorts of stories, not just this).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Sometimes there is just no answer. This is the price we pay for living in a free society.

To an extent. But other countries have much fewer of these mass shootings so obviously they've found an answer to make things better.

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Responses like that is the reason why we cannot have a dialog, not to mention Blackie's vitrol.

While I agree with this statement, you were the one running around calling politicians cunts the other day.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by DougW

I guess school officials worried about him quite early, but didn't think he was any danger to harm others. Their concern was him being bullied or harming himself. Apparantly he was assigned a psychologist, and taken out of school to be home schooled, after his mother had "battled with" the school district to make sure he was getting the support he needed. Seemed his parents had divorced, and both appeared active. (He lived with his mother, but his father paid $250,000 a year in child support - more than the court recommended - in return for joint custody of him and generous visiting rights. )

Connecticut school shooting: Adam Lanza was assigned psychologist - Telegraph

$250,000 a year in child support?

[cartman]

For the record, autism isn't classified a mental illness, it is classified as developmental disorder.

The NRA doesn't appear to be open to public discussion. They have disabled their Facebook page, which just last week they were trumpeting that they had 1.7 million likes.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by panerd

$250,000 a year in child support?

That got me too.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hey, I was trying to keep the reply as calm as possible. That was as good as I could come up with.

What have we come to when JIMG is the voice of reason?

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by panerd

$250,000 a year in child support?

The father is a VP for an energy firm. I am guessing they are pretty well off.

[JPhillips]

This brought tears to my eyes. These are Sandy Hook students attending the funeral of one of the slain children.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

What have we come to when JIMG is the voice of reason?

LOL, and LOL even harder because one of the oldest running jokes in my household is "When I'm the voice of reason then the situation is pretty much FUBAR"

[molson]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Many people inside the US can't understand the country's fascination with guns either.

Making an effort to try to understand it might prove more effective than just broad demonization. (edit: though, easier said than done of course, for example, I don't get why people freak out over airport security lines and taking off their shoes.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This brought tears to my eyes. These are Sandy Hook students attending the funeral of one of the slain children.

I know this may seem odd (and I'm totally not quibbling, I'm asking) ... I'd seen a graphic being passed around on Facebook last night that talks about the school colors being green & white, asking everyone to wear those colors/ribbons in support today.

I notice those sweatshirts are blue & gold and have an "N" logo (for Newtown presumably) ... are we sure those are actually Sandy Hook students, or maybe students from another school in the district? (or SH kids wearing local HS gear maybe?)

(It's the accuracy of the school colors meme on FB I'm curious about)

[ISiddiqui]

KWhit: Obama thread is a general catch-all political thread.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

LOL, and LOL even harder because one of the oldest running jokes in my household is "When I'm the voice of reason then the situation is pretty much FUBAR"

It could only have been funnier if you had said...
"Can't we all just get along?"

[DougW]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I know this may seem odd (and I'm totally not quibbling, I'm asking) ... I'd seen a graphic being passed around on Facebook last night that talks about the school colors being green & white, asking everyone to wear those colors/ribbons in support today.

I notice those sweatshirts are blue & gold and have an "N" logo (for Newtown presumably) ... are we sure those are actually Sandy Hook students, or maybe students from another school in the district? (or SH kids wearing local HS gear maybe?)

(It's the accuracy of the school colors meme on FB I'm curious about)

Apparantly blue and yellow are the Newtown High School colors and green and white are the elementary school’s colors. People have been wearing/displaying both sets.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DougW

Apparantly blue and yellow are the Newtown High School colors and green and white are the elementary school’s colors. People have been wearing/displaying both sets.

Thanks. When I saw it last night on FB, I just had that feeling of "I wonder if this is even halfway right", so when I saw this it made me even more curious.