WW LXVI: Money Money Money (Game Over!)

[hoopsguy]

By the way, I'm thinking about the gift idea for the people who didn't vote yesterday. They are already 15K short of the rest of us and I think they are less likely to be a member of the coordinated minority if they didn't get a vote in. Thoughts?

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by saldana

of course my whole plan goes straight to shit as soon as a cutthroat wins the bid, and then doesnt reveal anything, like it appears is happening today.

Enough people have checked in by now for me to share this info, I suppose.

I think that Lathum won the seer last night. I could say more, but I would have to go into some details about my inherit PM to do so and I don't think there is a ton of value in doing so.

I was hoping that this wasn't the case and that someone was going to come forward with seer info, forcing me to re-evaluate the numbers. But at this point I'm basically operating under the idea that we aren't going to have any further seer info to help with our choice today.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Enough people have checked in by now for me to share this info, I suppose.

I think that Lathum won the seer last night. I could say more, but I would have to go into some details about my inherit PM to do so and I don't think there is a ton of value in doing so.

I was hoping that this wasn't the case and that someone was going to come forward with seer info, forcing me to re-evaluate the numbers. But at this point I'm basically operating under the idea that we aren't going to have any further seer info to help with our choice today.

this, if true, complicates things, as we now have no means of starting a COT for 2 more days.

i tend to believe this is true...lathum very seldom dies on night one (i was very surprised he was killed), so i am sure he felt sure he would wake up today and be able to reveal.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

By the way, I'm thinking about the gift idea for the people who didn't vote yesterday. They are already 15K short of the rest of us and I think they are less likely to be a member of the coordinated minority if they didn't get a vote in. Thoughts?

this seems like a logical choice as they are less likely targets given they already have less money due to not voting.

[path12]

Anyone who gets a bid is notified at the end of the day so they can use the service that night, correct?

And I'm following along for now and have some thoughts, but I need a few minutes to clarify them and unfortunately people keep calling me like they need me to friggin work or something.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Barkeep, can the Cutthroats execute both a bribe and an attack during the same evening cycle? Or do they have to choose between one and the other?

Another related question - is there a limit to how many bribe actions the Cutthroats can take? In an evening? Over the course of the game?

The cutthroats know the rules about conversions. The rich? They'll have to wait until post game

[DaddyTorgo]

i didn't bid on any services. My $$ is pretty much all tied up in CD's (except for a small amount). I got the impression that the bids to win services would have to be big to start out with, which is why I stayed away.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by path12

Anyone who gets a bid is notified at the end of the day so they can use the service that night, correct?

And I'm following along for now and have some thoughts, but I need a few minutes to clarify them and unfortunately people keep calling me like they need me to friggin work or something.

Winning bidders find out when they receive their daily cash update

[DaddyTorgo]

as others have mentioned, with the uncertainty regarding conversions, I don't think we'll be able to form a traditional CoT anyways in this game.

I think everyone's best bet is to hoard the money themselves / use it on services that have benefit rather than trying to spread it around.

i think $$ in this game is basically like people in a more traditional WW game. We want to protect our $$.

Force the cutthroat's to bid high on bribes and services and use their money there, and put ours away in CD's. I'm wondering if the risk/reward of having a beneficiary means that it doesn't make sense to, as you could be giving that money to a cutthroat or someone who gets converted and it's better to just have it dissapear from the game? I guess that's a % play and as it gets later in the game we might want to start thinking along those lines.

Random thoughts on the nature of the game by me.

[Alan T]

I can't imagine you wanting it to disappear from the game.. In a few days, even if we don't have a traditional COT, there will still be at least 1-3 people whom you trust enough to name as a beneficiary.. and I doubt the game will get to a point where there are only 4-5 villagers left (assuming that is how many wolves started), so at worst you would have a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly for your beneficiary.

It seems to me that the wolves want to target kills at people to specifically try to remove money from the game such as what you are suggesting.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Enough people have checked in by now for me to share this info, I suppose.

I think that Lathum won the seer last night. I could say more, but I would have to go into some details about my inherit PM to do so and I don't think there is a ton of value in doing so.

I was hoping that this wasn't the case and that someone was going to come forward with seer info, forcing me to re-evaluate the numbers. But at this point I'm basically operating under the idea that we aren't going to have any further seer info to help with our choice today.

un fortunate....

[finketr]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I managed to fix my posting issue.. but won't bore anyone with the details (unless anyone here is literally excited about running multiple GRE tunnels over MPLS clouds.

why in the heck are there multiple GRE tunnels over an MPLS cloud? I suspect you have an issue with MTU and/or fragmenting packets to deal with.

just thinking out loud as that sounds like something i would do to save a couple of bucks here and there.

[hoopsguy]

Semi-hypothetical question - what has more value, denying PM rights for the Cutthroats or open PM rights for all players?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by finketr

why in the heck are there multiple GRE tunnels over an MPLS cloud? I suspect you have an issue with MTU and/or fragmenting packets to deal with.

just thinking out loud as that sounds like something i would do to save a couple of bucks here and there.

It is a cost savings measure. At sites that require an internal and an external network connection, instead of buying multiple circuits for 500 different sites, we buy just the internal connection circuit for the 500 sites, and have a GRE tunnel back for all external connectivity to one central site that allows the connectivity outbound.

Of course the numbers are made up, we have far more than 500 sites, but that doesn't matter. My problem was indeed an issue with fragmentation not happening across the MPLS, causing anything over a certain size packet to just choke. I don't usually work from this office, so I had my priorities set the right way... Fix what I need in order to get to FOFC

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Semi-hypothetical question - what has more value, denying PM rights for the Cutthroats or open PM rights for all players?

I personally think denying them PM rights. They won't have the ability to organize anything or if one of them somehow comes under fire, they can't mobilize in any way to do anything about it.

If I had PM rights, i really am not sure what I would say to anyone just yet. I have no special information (such as people's bank values or anything from a seer), and don't really have anyone I trust.. so my conversations in private would pretty much just be an extention of anything I said here.

I guess that -could- change depending on what happens today/tonight/whenever if I suddenly had someone I trusted, and had information I didn't want wolves to have, I could spread it around that way.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I personally think denying them PM rights. They won't have the ability to organize anything or if one of them somehow comes under fire, they can't mobilize in any way to do anything about it.

If I had PM rights, i really am not sure what I would say to anyone just yet. I have no special information (such as people's bank values or anything from a seer), and don't really have anyone I trust.. so my conversations in private would pretty much just be an extention of anything I said here.

I guess that -could- change depending on what happens today/tonight/whenever if I suddenly had someone I trusted, and had information I didn't want wolves to have, I could spread it around that way.

I agree! Deny them rights. I rember we did the NYE game and eveyrone could PM, I found it very anonnying....

[path12]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I don't know if Lathum had additional funds that were lost on his death due to not being in the bank.

I asked Barkeep what happened to money that was in a CD if a player was night killed. He said that money goes to the beneficiary.

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Not having the BG last night is lame.

How do we know we didn't have the BG?

Originally Posted by saldana

unless the bodyguard service tells you that they saved your ass and who attacked you, we learn nothing from no kill nights

I wonder if you are approached with a bribe below your stated level if you are informed you were approached?

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Semi-hypothetical question - what has more value, denying PM rights for the Cutthroats or open PM rights for all players?

Without a doubt I think that denying PM rights to the Cutthroats would be the way to go.

Now, after going through the thread a second time, some general thoughts:

--So Alan bid 30K on a service but didn't get it. Did you format the PM properly? If so, then there is a tiebreaker sort of system that we are not aware of.

From earlier messages it appears the following people bid for sure: Mr W., Lathum, Alan T, claphamsa (who in post 158 suggests he bid 30k, by the way).

--As for the starting money situation for cutthroats vs rich, it seems to me that the cutthroats need to keep a couple of things in mind:

1) If we invest in CD's consistently, the good guys pool at the end of day 4 should outstrip by far the cutthroats money if everyone started with 30K. That suggests to me that they likely started with more than that.

2) It also suggests that they need to be careful not to spend too much in order to make sure they have enough day 4 to balance out our total. Which means that they might have to be more careful in bidding than we think.

I think the following services would be the most important for the cutthroats to try and grab:
Day 2 -- Telecommunications.
Day 3 -- Thief
Day 4 -- Notary Public or Wiretapper

That's all I got right now. I didn't see any posts that really peaked my interest except for claphamsa's announcement that he bid high and has no money, yet subsequent posts suggest he has money on hand. He's probably my likely vote today at this point.

[finketr]

Originally Posted by Alan T

It is a cost savings measure. At sites that require an internal and an external network connection, instead of buying multiple circuits for 500 different sites, we buy just the internal connection circuit for the 500 sites, and have a GRE tunnel back for all external connectivity to one central site that allows the connectivity outbound.

Of course the numbers are made up, we have far more than 500 sites, but that doesn't matter. My problem was indeed an issue with fragmentation not happening across the MPLS, causing anything over a certain size packet to just choke. I don't usually work from this office, so I had my priorities set the right way... Fix what I need in order to get to FOFC

hehe.. been there, done that, my friend... just a lucky guess on my part.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

How do we know we didn't have the BG?



I wonder if you are approached with a bribe below your stated level if you are informed you were approached?



Without a doubt I think that denying PM rights to the Cutthroats would be the way to go.

Now, after going through the thread a second time, some general thoughts:

--So Alan bid 30K on a service but didn't get it. Did you format the PM properly? If so, then there is a tiebreaker sort of system that we are not aware of.

From earlier messages it appears the following people bid for sure: Mr W., Lathum, Alan T, claphamsa (who in post 158 suggests he bid 30k, by the way).

--As for the starting money situation for cutthroats vs rich, it seems to me that the cutthroats need to keep a couple of things in mind:

1) If we invest in CD's consistently, the good guys pool at the end of day 4 should outstrip by far the cutthroats money if everyone started with 30K. That suggests to me that they likely started with more than that.

2) It also suggests that they need to be careful not to spend too much in order to make sure they have enough day 4 to balance out our total. Which means that they might have to be more careful in bidding than we think.

I think the following services would be the most important for the cutthroats to try and grab:
Day 2 -- Telecommunications.
Day 3 -- Thief
Day 4 -- Notary Public or Wiretapper

That's all I got right now. I didn't see any posts that really peaked my interest except for claphamsa's announcement that he bid high and has no money, yet subsequent posts suggest he has money on hand. He's probably my likely vote today at this point.

Barkeep said yesterday that no one bid on the bodyguard service yesterday.

Regarding formatting my PM correctly, I actually didn't format it correctly, but Barkeep responded back saying that he would take it that time just in the future to please format it with the service and amount in the title.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I bid on the seer service, but lost because my bid was not large enough.

I plan to bid on a service tonight. At the moment, I haven't decided which one it will be, but even when I do decide, I'm going to keep it to myself.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, and I wholeheartedly support the idea of killing the wolf PM rights. I don't see that I have much to gain from being able to PM freely with other players.

[Passacaglia]

I agree that we should make it so that the wolves can't PM each other. While it would be fun, I think that giving all players the ability to PM each other might work to the wolves advantage.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by The Rules

The game will start with a Day 0. Players need to do two three actions during Night 0. First they must state an amount between $20,000 and $100,000. During the game the Cutthroats will have the chance to bribe a player or players. If they meet the asking price for a player, that player will be converted to the cutthroat side and the money removed from the game. If the bribe attempt fails that player gets to keep the attempted bribe.

path, I read this as saying that the player who the wolves tried to bribe gets to keep the money, if it fails. In that case, my guess is that we'd get to find out if an attempt was made on us.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I can't wait for revelations, as I will be leaving before night ends, and won't be back until after the late deadline.

I am sticking with my vote from today, as I still have a funny feel for hoops' play so far. I also included an alternate choice if hoops gets a visit from the Cutthroats. Hopefully Barkeep will allow this.

VOTE HOOPSGUY (and if he gets killed tonight, VOTE ARLES)

It's about time for me to get out of here for a few hours, possibly until after deadline. It appears we won't have any seer reveals today, so I'm just left with my gut instinct.

Chief seemed to jump in the middle of a fray that he wasn't really involved with yesterday to target Hoops pretty hard. Then at night Lathum (who was also questioning Hoops yesterday) was night killed, followed by Chief's follow up vote on Hoops just for a funny feel before night results were up.

I fully understand Chief had to vote because of his job at the time he did, but a few things about what happened last night nagged at me a bit, so I'll go in Chief's direction with a vote today. Nothing really solid, just playing off of a gut feeling.

Vote Chief Rum

[path12]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

path, I read this as saying that the player who the wolves tried to bribe gets to keep the money, if it fails. In that case, my guess is that we'd get to find out if an attempt was made on us.

Cool, so did anyone get extra money that might have been a bribe last night?

I'm wondering if there are any restrictions on their actions -- like can they use a service and kill the same night, or bribe and kill the same night or something along those lines. That might help us in determining the nights when there is a possible conversion.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by path12

Cool, so did anyone get extra money that might have been a bribe last night?

I'm wondering if there are any restrictions on their actions -- like can they use a service and kill the same night, or bribe and kill the same night or something along those lines. That might help us in determining the nights when there is a possible conversion.

I think Barkeep answered in post 356 that we don't get to know that stuff.

[hoopsguy]

OK, here is some specific money information that people can either take at face value or assume that I'm playing an angle - whatever floats your boat:
1.) Swaggs was my beneficiary, with his death I named a new one (-10K)
2.) I received money from Lathum as his beneficiary. Based on the fact that I assume he was the seer I didn't have a chunk of money that I would have expected (-7.5K)
3.) I'm going to be bidding on a service (-???K)
4.) I'm planning to "gift" 3K (new modified amount) to Arles and DaddyTorgo - the guys who didn't vote last night who spotted the rest of us 15K by not doing so (-6K)

So I'm going to be out 23.5K from the combination of my money and Lathum's money I received, plus whatever I bid on the service.

The point of this long, winding post is to indicate to the Cutthroats that it will be a fiscally poor move to come after me with a big offer tonight. There should almost certainly be others out there who will be more profitable additions to your stable.

[hoopsguy]

Also, I would like to:

Give $3,000 to Arles
Give $3,000 to Daddy Torgo

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by path12

From earlier messages it appears the following people bid for sure: Mr W., Lathum, Alan T, claphamsa (who in post 158 suggests he bid 30k, by the way).

I dont know how to do the fancy multiquote..... but My statment was something along the lines of... Im gonna bid high, so I dont have any moeny. wolves dont kill me. If you have no money why would the wolves kill you? It was sefl preservation.... and no i did not bid. nothing worth biddign on.....

[hoopsguy]

My bizarre logic suggests that their failure to vote last night, and maximize their earnings, makes them less likely to be Cutthroats. If they are Cutthroats then they certainly are not in the good graces of their teammates who are trying to accumulate funds. They represent my semi-trusted list at this point in the game. It would take a compelling argument for me to vote for either of them today. Everyone else, self excluded, is on the table for discussion.

[hoopsguy]

OK, so we are about 5.5 hours from deadline and we have two votes in and not much chatter about voting.

I'll be looking to start talking about this once I make my way home this evening - probably will have 1-2 hours prior to the deadline to actively post once the kid is in bed for the night.

[claphamsa]

Yeah, that is one problem with not being able to unvote.....

[Tyrith]

Well, my issue is that the only person I have any bad feelings about right now is hoops, and I'm not really inclined to kill the guy that might actually stir something up. And my fallback position is always kill the quiet people...but bleh, that's not really attractive in a game like this because it gets us absolutely nowhere.

[path12]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

Bah, we still got hours till we have to vote... Im to sick to go anywhere...

Im gonna bid high so! so I wont have no money left cutthroats, stay away.......

Originally Posted by claphamsa

I dont know how to do the fancy multiquote..... but My statment was something along the lines of... Im gonna bid high, so I dont have any moeny. wolves dont kill me. If you have no money why would the wolves kill you? It was sefl preservation.... and no i did not bid. nothing worth biddign on.....

Just to help you out on the multi quote thing, this was your post I referenced. I grant it's quite possible you were bluffing in order to not be targeted by the cutthroats, but it's a discrepancy and that's what I'm looking for with not a lot of other information to go on.

So why did you decide not to bid yesterday? And are you planning on bidding today?

[path12]

Dola, I'm going to have to have my vote in by 7 Eastern as I'll be out tonight until after deadline.

[DaddyTorgo]

fyi i did vote last night. 8:46 or 8:47pm.

but i'll accept your gift. as i stated, my money is mostly in CD's. I kept a bit in the bank to spend.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm not going to say that I trust hoops, but he's done nothing at this point to make me question him. He's playing a bit of an active game, but I don't think that indicates anything sinister particularly given that his usual level of involvement makes him a bit of a target (and being Lathum's beneficiary makes him more interesting as a potential cash source).

[SnDvls]

I'm heading home and I have no reason to change my vote from yesterday
Vote Mauboy1

[RendeR]

I'm trying to figure out if the voting recrods are really going to tell us anything useful in this game overall. Since its more about the money than any activities on the cutthroats part I'm not sure they need to vote in any specific manner.

So I'll fall back to my default:

VOTE ST. CRONIN

[st.cronin]

Dang.

[RendeR]

Sorry man =) but you're still a wolf, even when yer not

[Barkeep49]

Early vote count:
Hoops – Chief (276)
Chief Rum – Alan (374)
Mauboy – Sndvls (388)
Cronin – Render (389)

[claphamsa]

+ I did not bid yesterday, becasue I felt that with tghe info I had (none) I wouldnt be able to pick somone to scan (and the others werent that useful...)

Today I will bid... simply becasue I have some ideas (albeit weak).

Originally Posted by path12

Just to help you out on the multi quote thing, this was your post I referenced. I grant it's quite possible you were bluffing in order to not be targeted by the cutthroats, but it's a discrepancy and that's what I'm looking for with not a lot of other information to go on.

So why did you decide not to bid yesterday? And are you planning on bidding today?

[Passacaglia]

Well, this seems like the randomness of a Day 1 vote, with the pressure of a Later-than-Day-1 vote. I'm looking at SnDvls. It was his post that led us to think that DT hadn't voted, plus he's doubled up his vengeance vote on mau, which just pings my radar a little.

VOTE SNDVLS

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

What bad form not to even put in an appearance. This is a crisis and Swaggs couldn't even be bothered to give a how do you do. Yes the strings that were pulled to make sure his largest customer switched business was well worth it. The man is destitute now. Bankrupt. Sure he wasn't a Cutthroat, but he didn't really seem like one of you either.

In other news you hear that the following services were won:
Private Investigator - $7500
Friend of the Bank - $7
Government Insider - $30000

You hear about this and feel for that poor bodyguard. He didn't get one cent richer today. That seems almost as tragic as the now certain death to come tonight.

Final Vote Count:
Lathum – hoops (110)
Swaggs – Alan (149), Lathum (155), Pass (156), Render (157), Mr. W (168), The Jackal (192), saldana (198), path (215), Schmidty (229), Tyrith (231)
Sndvls – mauboy(151)
Mau – Sndvls (190)
Hoops – Chief Rum (201)
Jackal – claphams (205)

Actually it was this post here that led me to believe that DT had not voted. 15 votes out of 18, no votes from Swaggs, Arles, and Torgo.

[mauchow]

Pass -

I was actually thinking the same thing. I nearly put my vote on sndvls earlier but I wanted to let the day progress a little further. For no other reason just to get my vote out there, I was going to vote sndvls. Sorry for the second vote though, devils.

Vote Sndvls

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Actually it was this post here that led me to believe that DT had not voted. 15 votes out of 18, no votes from Swaggs, Arles, and Torgo.

Now ya tells me! Well, for ME it was SnDvls.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Pass -

I was actually thinking the same thing. I nearly put my vote on sndvls earlier but I wanted to let the day progress a little further. For no other reason just to get my vote out there, I was going to vote sndvls. Sorry for the second vote though, devils.

Vote Sndvls

oh, here we go again...

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Well, this seems like the randomness of a Day 1 vote, with the pressure of a Later-than-Day-1 vote. I'm looking at SnDvls. It was his post that led us to think that DT hadn't voted, plus he's doubled up his vengeance vote on mau, which just pings my radar a little.

VOTE SNDVLS

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Pass -

I was actually thinking the same thing. I nearly put my vote on sndvls earlier but I wanted to let the day progress a little further. For no other reason just to get my vote out there, I was going to vote sndvls. Sorry for the second vote though, devils.

Vote Sndvls

wow two quick votes on me both knowing I was heading out and both with illogical reasons too.

I guess I can let Pass slip up with his major oversite, today, but Mauboy this is two days in a row you put a vote for no reason. I really don't get it.

[saldana]

anyone else find it ironic that the guy that, as a player, is constantly expounding the value of information is running a game where no information is available?