Jesus is Love. Allah is Not.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Yeah, I was reading up on this as well. Has the Holy Spirit challenged anyone else to change the law since then? Anytime fairly recently? These are important questions since if the laws of the Bible are meant to followed literally, then how and why they get changed is a huge point.

I'm sure he has, but unfortunately we threw them in the loony bin...

[rowech]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Wait... you are analyzing this instead of treating it as fact? Wouldn't those parents that don't follow these rules themselves be sinners and need to be stoned as well? This is the problem people always want to pick and choose what they think is true and not true in the bible and what they should follow or not follow.

I'm not picking and choosing anything. I'm reading what the verses say.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Yeah, I was reading up on this as well. Has the Holy Spirit challenged anyone else to change the law since then? Anytime fairly recently? These are important questions since if the laws of the Bible are meant to followed literally, then how and why they get changed is a huge point.

Well, the problem is who would believe it if they had? I'm quite sure there's been plenty of people who said the Holy Spirit was moving through them and changing the laws, look at the Mormons. And the rest of Christianity is going to ignore them.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Wait... you are analyzing this instead of treating it as fact? Wouldn't those parents that don't follow these rules themselves be sinners and need to be stoned as well? This is the problem people always want to pick and choose what they think is true and not true in the bible and what they should follow or not follow.

Which is AS IT SHOULD BE. Take what you read, interpret it, mesh it with your own personal logic, reason and experience it, and try and go about it in the way you think best. Blind unquestioning adherence to any dogma, be it religious or not, is idiocy.

What's the quote?

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Gallieo

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I don't think Jesus is love. I think Jesus sucks, and he's not the son of God. He's some schmoe that was so nice that people decided to make up bullshit stories about him. The Bible is pretty much the Old-Timey script for Forrest Gump. And guess what? I'm not going to hell, because it doesn't exist! When you die, you're going to the same place I am. Nowhere! We are both going to rot, and that's going to be the end of it. So enjoy it while you have it. I'd tell you to quit wasting your time on all of this Jesus stuff, but really, anything you do is a waste of time in this life when you get right down to the heart of it.

You were joking but yeah...that's my view on things. Although I might not go as far as "Jesus sucks" and my view of what the Bible's purpose was is more intellectually nuanced than that (as is yours I'm sure), but yeah.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Yeah, I was reading up on this as well. Has the Holy Spirit challenged anyone else to change the law since then? Anytime fairly recently? These are important questions since if the laws of the Bible are meant to followed literally, then how and why they get changed is a huge point.

Everybody picks and chooses. Every conceivable belief or non-belief in anything involves a choice.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by molson

Everybody picks and chooses. Every conceivable belief or non-belief in anything involves a choice.

Well, of course this is true. But then it invalidates the logic X is wrong for the Bible tells me so, and subverts it to X is wrong for the Bible tells me so and I choose to believe it. To me, this takes much of the desired "clout" behind the argument away.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Which is AS IT SHOULD BE. Take what you read, interpret it, mesh it with your own personal logic, reason and experience it, and try and go about it in the way you think best. Blind unquestioning adherence to any dogma, be it religious or not, is idiocy.

What's the quote?

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Gallieo

Come on everyone knows Gallieo was an atheist! (actually I don't know if he was or wasn't, just making a joke).

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Come on everyone knows Gallieo was an atheist! (actually I don't know if he was or wasn't, just making a joke).

I know for a fact, however, he liked schoolgirl plaid!

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The real question is, what kind of gun rack would Jesus put in his truck?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The real question is, what kind of gun rack would Jesus put in his truck?

Jesus would have a whole weapons chest in the back of his truck.

[cschex]

Just to tie everything back to the original "point", one of my all-time favorite Onion articles...

Christ Converts To Islam | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by rowech

While I don't totally believe this argument, it can most certainly be said that they have the same rights as any straight couple. To marry a member of the opposite sex. I do not have any additional rights that they don't have. As I said...I don't really buy into that but it is a perfectly valid argument.

In the 1800s, blacks had the same rights as whites...to marry a member of their own race. Just because you can phrase a right in discriminatory ways doesn't mean that you should use it to discriminate.

I have no problem with what you're saying as far as marriage providing those things from the government. None whatsoever. I have a problem with anybody using any part of the Christian God in that ceremony and believing God believes it to be okay. Whether it be the participants, the witnesses, the Justice performing the ceremony, the pastor...whoever.

As part of the whole non-judging thing, how about letting the gay couple pray for God's blessing on the union and letting God decide if He will?

[Neon_Chaos]

We can all interpret the bible in so many ways...

Rowan Atkinson (Mr. Bean) does so...

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by cschex

Just to tie everything back to the original "point", one of my all-time favorite Onion articles...

Christ Converts To Islam | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

Here's mine.

God Answers Prayers Of Paralyzed Little Boy | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[Autumn]

I skipped a few pages in the middle, but I have to say, to get back to the original point also, the other point is, even if we agree "god is love, allah is not," what does that mean? Is love the only basis around which to build a religion? Does one being about love and the other not make one true and one not? It doesn't tell us anything, except maybe which religion we might like more. But the religious are constantly telling me that's not the way to choose our beliefs.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by cschex

Just to tie everything back to the original "point", one of my all-time favorite Onion articles...

Christ Converts To Islam | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

"I've been a Bible-believing Christian all my life, and nothing, not even a direct order from Christ Himself, is going to change that,"

Classic.

[TRO]

Originally Posted by Radii

It alienates me personally because it appears you're attempting to dictate right and wrong through your own personal, private beliefs, and I feel very deeply that each individual is entitled to their own beliefs. Furthermore, I feel that your beliefs (at least as I perceive them based on reading what you've written so far) help to contribute to the religious based hatred in the world just as much as the people you are calling out. Calling out a large group of people and openly telling them their beliefs are wrong is not about love or acceptance of others, its about hate, and it saddens me to see it.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[TRO]

Originally Posted by tarcone

On Violence:

God destroyed the earth with a flood because of the extent violence had spread:

* "...the earth was filled with violence... Then God said to Noah, 'The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence... behold, I am about to destroy them...'" (Genesis 6:13).

It's only OK to murder if God does it himself? Gotcha!

[molson]

Originally Posted by TRO

It's only OK to murder if God does it himself? Gotcha!

I don't believe in any specific incarnation of God, but I always found it interesting that most believers assume God has to be this fair, perfect being. Maybe God's an asshole. Maybe God fucks with you just for fun.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't believe in any specific incarnation of God, but I always found it interesting that most believers assume God has to be this fair, perfect being. Maybe God's an asshole. Maybe God fucks with you just for fun.

Zeusist!

[sovereignstar]

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't believe in any specific incarnation of God, but I always found it interesting that most believers assume God has to be this fair, perfect being. Maybe God's an asshole. Maybe God fucks with you just for fun.

This is why I hope I can count on you for your support in the upcoming God Election. I promise you, I will TELL my followers that I'm going to fuck with them. No ambiguity, and you can eat all the bacon you want!

Coffee Warlord: The Deity for the Future!

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by rowech

The Bible is pretty clear on homosexual behavior. It's a sin. The New Testament would have us to love the person anyway but to still understand that it is wrong what the person is doing. Any church that endorses something that is wrong, according to the Bible, is simply not a Christian church. You cannot pick and choose what parts of the Bible you adhere to.

The problem is that the often quoted passage of the bible that says homosexuality is a sin is mixed in with other crazy-ass ideas (laws) that nobody with any fucking sense would give any credence to.

The gay passages I refer to are:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

But here are the other passages sitting side by side with those in Leviticus:

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

So, I mean... Seriously. In the verses surrounding the ones used to condemn gay people we learn the following:

• It's okay to have slaves.
  
• You cannot have sex with your wife while she has her period.
  
• You must kill your son or daughter if he or she "curses" you.
  
• You must not cut your hair at the sides of your head or shave. Seriously, WTF?
  
• Don't eat pig or shellfish.
  
• You can't plant two types of seed in a field.
  
• You can't wear clothes that have blended fabric. BLENDED FABRIC? OH THE SIN!

[KWhit]

Also, I never got a response to this point I made to tarcone in the other thread. His premise was that the Koran endorsed murder and making women subservient, but the bible was above such things. A quick search seems to prove that wrong:

Originally Posted by tarcone

Wrong. muslims do not pray to the same God. They pray to Allah. Allah is not my God. They believe Jesus Christ was a prophet, not God.
Islam believes those that kill or are killed by unbelievers will go to the garden of paradise.
Those who submit their lives to Christ will go to Heaven.

Uh... It's the same God, dude.

Originally Posted by tarcone

Jesus is Love. Allah is not.

I think you are mistaken about the true God. I do not pray to God that allows murder or that women are required to be subservient.

You are incorrect:

Condoning Murder (there are actually about 100 or more of these, I just copied the first few):

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


Women must be subservient:

As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (NIV, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

Any comment?

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

and you can eat all the bacon you want!

Sold

[lungs]

None of that stuff counts, KWhit. That's just the way it is.

[fantom1979]

KWhit, is missing the point. If it is something that is currently an issue (gay marriage), then the bible tells us it is wrong. If it is something outdated and silly, then the bible is not supposed to be taken literally, and faith is the driving force. Once you understand that logic, then you will be a believer.

[KWhit]

Well, of course I know that. Just trying to see what one of the "Bible is TRUTH" people will say about that.

[molson]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

KWhit, is missing the point. If it is something that is currently an issue (gay marriage), then the bible tells us it is wrong. If it is something outdated and silly, then the bible is not supposed to be taken literally, and faith is the driving force. Once you understand that logic, then you will be a believer.

Actually, that's right. Humans creating a bible are going to have their own idea about what god wants. As society changes, those ideas change. And if God evolves, and our relationship with him evolves, than those things might actually change too.

It's funny, the most narrow-minded people are the hardcore believers of a specific dogma, and hard-core atheists, who can't seem to wrap their mind around theories of spirituality beyond the most literal, dogmatic, fundamentalist approaches. They're great at attacking that (it's not hard), but they seem to not understand any religious/spiritual idea more complicated than that. The poke holes in the bible as the "truth" and get all gloaty and think they've won the entire debate. Kind of like in the liberal thread, they decide Sara Palin is the opposition, so they attack that, but duck any debate about different kinds of thoughts and ideas. If they can beat Palin (which is easy), they feel like they've won and that's enough. No need to expand your mind any further.

[DanGarion]

I've officially added KWhit and molson to my GTG list. They are my homies.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I feared love way before even looking at this photo.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by molson

Actually, that's right. Humans creating a bible are going to have their own idea about what god wants. As society changes, those ideas change. And if God evolves, and our relationship with him evolves, than those things might actually change too.

It's funny, the most narrow-minded people are the hardcore believers of a specific dogma, and hard-core atheists, who can't seem to wrap their mind around theories of spirituality beyond the most literal, dogmatic, fundamentalist approaches. They're great at attacking that (it's not hard), but they seem to not understand any religious/spiritual idea more complicated than that. The poke holes in the bible as the "truth" and get all gloaty and think they've won the entire debate. Kind of like in the liberal thread, they decide Sara Palin is the opposition, so they attack that, but duck any debate about different kinds of thoughts and ideas. If they can beat Palin (which is easy), they feel like they've won and that's enough. No need to expand your mind any further.

I didn't know that a thread titled "Jesus is Love. Allah is Not" was the place for a serious conversation about spirituality.

And second, did you just say the Bible was written by man? That's enough to piss off most Christians right there.

And it's funny that you want to criticize people who assume things about an entire group without getting into nuances of an argument, by doing the exact same thing yourself to the "hard-core atheists" whatever that means.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by molson

Actually, that's right. Humans creating a bible are going to have their own idea about what god wants. As society changes, those ideas change. And if God evolves, and our relationship with him evolves, than those things might actually change too.

It's funny, the most narrow-minded people are the hardcore believers of a specific dogma, and hard-core atheists, who can't seem to wrap their mind around theories of spirituality beyond the most literal, dogmatic, fundamentalist approaches. They're great at attacking that (it's not hard), but they seem to not understand any religious/spiritual idea more complicated than that. The poke holes in the bible as the "truth" and get all gloaty and think they've won the entire debate. Kind of like in the liberal thread, they decide Sara Palin is the opposition, so they attack that, but duck any debate about different kinds of thoughts and ideas. If they can beat Palin (which is easy), they feel like they've won and that's enough. No need to expand your mind any further.

You see, this is where you lose me. I am a Christian, but I have been told by pastors and family members, that I cannot be a Christian if I believe in gay marriage, abortion, the death penalty, or any number of issues. I firmly believe that religion has a special place for people. But it is those that take their beliefs and ideas about THEIR PERCEPTION OF THE BIBLE and shove it down my throat, that I cannot stand.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I've officially added KWhit and molson to my GTG list. They are my homies.

I'm scared. What is a GTG list?

Good To Go?

Got To Grab?

Goobs Touched by Grover?

Great Tongued Guys?

*shudders*

[molson]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

You see, this is where you lose me. I am a Christian, but I have been told by pastors and family members, that I cannot be a Christian if I believe in gay marriage, abortion, the death penalty, or any number of issues. I firmly believe that religion has a special place for people. But it is those that take their beliefs and ideas about THEIR PERCEPTION OF THE BIBLE and shove it down my throat, that I cannot stand.

You can't be a "good Christian" as judged by those pastors and family members. But they're not god. You probably couldn't live their lifestyle 1000 years ago and be considered a "good Christian".

I don't believe "god" if he/it exists, has a set of rules for anyone. I believe that for some reason, some people can improve their relationship with god by setting these rules, by creating dogma, and encouraging others to follow them. So they're not really "wrong", because their religion allows them to get closer to god. If they didn't follow those rules, they wouldn't be as close. Some religions subtly acknowledge this, that people create Dogma and rules, not god. But under the religion, you still have to follow it, because that's their particular "pathway" to understanding.

So Christ, from a universal view (IMO), isn't the only way, isn't the right religion, but believing that isn't inherently wrong, because it does get you closer to "god".

[molson]

Originally Posted by KWhit

And it's funny that you want to criticize people who assume things about an entire group without getting into nuances of an argument, by doing the exact same thing yourself to the "hard-core atheists" whatever that means.

Fair criticism, though that's a pretty specific group. I just mean the people who trash all religion/spirituality in general because they can poke holes in the literal truth of the bible. Big accomplishment.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by molson

Fair criticism, though that's a pretty specific group. I just mean the people who trash all religion/spirituality in general because they can poke holes in the literal truth of the bible. Big accomplishment.

I think in this thread, in particular, people were responding to posters who specifically said that Christians have to believe in the literal words of the Bible. Certainly there are Christians who approach the Bible differently. But this discussion was in regards to the idea that if you don't follow what the Bible says you are not Christian.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think in this thread, in particular, people were responding to posters who specifically said that Christians have to believe in the literal words of the Bible. Certainly there are Christians who approach the Bible differently. But this discussion was in regards to the idea that if you don't follow what the Bible says you are not Christian.

Ya, I'm probably blending a lot of the religious threads here in my head.

[Malificent]

Originally Posted by Kalifornia

We aren't tackling dummies getting in the way of your messianic touchdown run.

Regardless of my position of everything else in this thread, I have to say this statement is pure awesome.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by molson

Ya, I'm probably blending a lot of the religious threads here in my head.

This is pretty much what I expected somebody to do when I did the "Pumpy schtick" thing earlier. See, it's levels upon levels.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Also, I never got a response to this point I made to tarcone in the other thread. His premise was that the Koran endorsed murder and making women subservient, but the bible was above such things. A quick search seems to prove that wrong:



Uh... It's the same God, dude.




You are incorrect:

Condoning Murder (there are actually about 100 or more of these, I just copied the first few):

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


Women must be subservient:

As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (NIV, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

Any comment?

Heh. This thread led me to a search I can't say I have ever done before. I put in 'evil' and 'bible' into google and of course the first thing to pop up is evilbible.org. A lot of your post above was stuff I enjoyed reading on that site. It was kind of a fun site to look through.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I'm scared. What is a GTG list?

Good To Go?

Got To Grab?

Goobs Touched by Grover?

Great Tongued Guys?

*shudders*

1st one.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Here is a site comparing the Karan to the Bible. Its a good place to start.

hxxp://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm

Jesus has one law. That law is Love. Its really that simple. If you Love others and serve others, you are being Christ-like. God wants us to be like Jesus Christ.

Allah is not about Love. Allah wants to win. Allah wants a man of Islam to be a dominant being over all others. And if it takes killing an unbeliever, so be it. If you die killing an unbeliever you go to the garden of paradise.

These are opposing views and shows the reason for conflict in the Middle East as well as their hatred for us.

Saw this, and didn't read the rest of the posts, but I have to wonder...
Do you see Jesus as God?

I ask because a year ago I took a religion course, and we talked about this in depth.

To say "Jesus is Love. Allah is not" is... a bit 'pointed' to say the least...
So I'm curious as to how Jesus relates to God in this context...

[Toddzilla]

Thanks for dragging this turd out of the grave, asshat.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Thanks for dragging this turd out of the grave, asshat.

Come on, show the guy a little Jesus!!

[Drake]

This thread has been resurrected...JUST LIKE JESUS.

This thread is Jesus.

[gkb]

I missed this thread the first time. I kept reading hoping for more french maid outfit pictures...no luck.

[Coffee Warlord]

More catholic schoolgirl outfit pictures, dammit!

[NiteMaestro]

Oh... whoops!!
It was graveyarded...??

I didn't realize 2 weeks was enough to graveyard something like this...