NFL Week 5

[Lathum]

FWIW Marino went to the playoffs 10 times and couldn't get it done. In the post season he had 32 TD's and 24 INT's and a QB rating of 77.1.

I just don't see how a guy who can get to the playoffs 10 times but never win a title can be considered the best ever.

Again, just my opinion.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Huh? Where did you get that from?

Marino averaged 20.5 points in the postseason.

And I haven't even gotten into the running games.

Super Bowl XIX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Huh? Where did you get that from?

Marino averaged 20.5 points in the postseason.

And I haven't even gotten into the running games.

they keep blowing teams out.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Super Bowl XIX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

25 yards rushing, 38 points and 537 yards allowed, I'd definitely pin the blame on Marino for that one :/

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

25 yards rushing, 38 points and 537 yards allowed, I'd definitely pin the blame on Marino for that one :/

Or you can follow the conversation.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Or you can follow the conversation.

With Miami showing a complete inability to run the ball or defend, so the SF defense knew Miami had to pass every down, I don't blame Marino for his team not scoring more than 18.2 points in that game.

[larrymcg421]

What's stupid about that kind of logic is that we have to pretend we don't know anything about football. We have to pretend that there's no difference when a QB is throwing into nickle defenses than when the D has to respect the run, that it's exactly the same for a QB constantly playing in 2nd and 9 situations instead of 2nd and 1. We have to pretend that great leadership is somehow going to make Sammie Smith not fumble at the 1 yard line. It will make Eric Kumerow, Bernie Parmalee, and Louis Oliver just as good as Reggie White, Terrell Davis, or Ronnie Lott. I'm sorry, but that's just idiotic.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Logan

Or you can follow the conversation.

The one where you use one game to determine Marino can't be the greatest QB ever? That one?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The one where you use one game to determine Marino can't be the greatest QB ever? That one?

You're right, one game shouldn't determine it, but 10 times to the post season and no rings should.

again, just my opinion

[Sun Tzu]

Montana is the best ever right now IMO, and I think you'll be hard pressed to make a strong arguement for anybody else. Manning is...amazing. I have been a huge Manning fan ever since he was at Tennessee. However if he retires with no more titles than what he has now, he's gunna go down as another Favre/Marino. Great Regular Season QB, can't get it done in the playoffs.

[larrymcg421]

I like how the guys who can "get it done" in the playoffs just happen to have great teams surrounding them. I guess they would have done it anyways because they can "get it done". It's just a coincidence that when they did it they had great supporting talent.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I like how the guys who can "get it done" in the playoffs just happen to have great teams surrounding them. I guess they would have done it anyways because they can "get it done". It's just a coincidence that when they did it they had great supporting talent.

If your team is good enough to get to 10 post seasons then the QB should be able to find a way to get it done.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If your team is good enough to get to 10 post seasons then the QB should be able to find a way to get it done.

Actually, I would argue the opposite. If a QB is good enough to carry a team to the postseason 10 times, then one of those years they should have given him enough support to win it all.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually, I would argue the opposite. If a QB is good enough to carry a team to the postseason 10 times, then one of those years they should have given him enough support to win it all.

So you are willing to give Marino all the credit for getting them to the playoffs but none of the blame for not winning when they get there?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So you are willing to give Marino all the credit for getting them to the playoffs but none of the blame for not winning when they get there?

I'm saying a great player can carry a team to the playoffs, but it takes a great team to win it all.

[larrymcg421]

And here is the average rushing yardage they've had in the postseason:

Elway - 132.4
Bradshaw - 130.7
Roethlisberger - 120.1
Montana - 116.8
Brady - 113.1
Favre - 107.7
E Manning - 106.4
P Manning - 96.4
Marino - 84.2


So there you go, Marino is dead last in both running support and defense in the postseason among the QB's we've been discussing. Like I said earlier, maybe these QB's really are better "leaders" and know how to "get it done" and it's just a coincidence that every single one of them has had better postseason support.

[ISiddiqui]

In my opinion, I think baseing "the greatest ever" QB on team postseason success is absolutely retarded.

[Julio Riddols]

Manning has done more by himself with his mental ability than any QB Ive ever seen. The team has practically not needed an offensive coordinator the past 3-5 years. That alone is a strong argument as to who is the "best" IMO. He has a football IQ and preparation like no one else.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Montana is the best ever right now IMO, and I think you'll be hard pressed to make a strong arguement for anybody else. Manning is...amazing. I have been a huge Manning fan ever since he was at Tennessee. However if he retires with no more titles than what he has now, he's gunna go down as another Favre/Marino. Great Regular Season QB, can't get it done in the playoffs.

Favre and Manning (both of them) have a ring. How many rings do they have to have? Seven?

[TroyF]

Some thoughts:

A lot of those Elway rushing numbers come from his last two years.

To me, when you say greatest QB ever, I don't think it should be a "system" QB. I rate it as a guy you could put 10 average players with and perform.

I love Montana. Really, really do. I used to say Elway without hesitation. I've grown on Marino over the years. At this point? I think Manning has moved himself into the discussion and by the time it's all said and done I think he'll be it. The numbers he's putting up are insanity.

--------------------------------------------------------

As far as the Broncos go, I still dont' know how good they are myself. My ire is directed at the people who keep yapping on about the "luckiest 5-0 team in history". My favorite is the idiot Perloff on cnnsi. Last week he was one of the guys who made the comment that the Broncos should enjoy their 4-0 start as they'd be 4-4 by their bye week. This week he said that if the game were played in NE, Denver would have lost by 14.

KC said he thought this team was like the 2003 Chiefs. I disagree. The 2003 Chiefs were winning by special teams TD's. Denver racked up 469 yards against the Chiefs that year and lost by a point. I was thinking the '01 Bears, but they had a ton of defensive TD's.

What you have here is one clear cut fluke win. A game the Bengals outgainted Denver by a good margain and dominated the game if you take away the fluky 78 yard pass.

That win is surrounded by four other W's where Denver averaged more yards per pass attempt, more yards per carry, and dominated the second half of all four contests.

I'm not sure what I'd equate them to at this point. Low expectations. Winning by a combination of you playing well and other teams doing stupid things (missing open WR, fumbling at bad times, committing stupid penalties) outcoaching the opposition and having a QB that nobody really trusts after taking over from a fan favorit. . . . oh my God. . . Denver is the 2001 Patriots.

Yikes.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

To me, when you say greatest QB ever, I don't think it should be a "system" QB. I rate it as a guy you could put 10 average players with and perform.

What does perform mean (seriously)? There's QBs playing today with 10 average players and you could say they're performing.

[RomaGoth]

The top 5 QB's I have seen play:

1) Peyton Manning
2) Dan Marino
3) Joe Montana
4) Tom Brady
5) John Elway

This does not take championships into account, although this list would not change much for me. Just my opinion of course.

[Lathum]

Just saw the Dre Bly replay, lol.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

The top 5 QB's I have seen play:

1) Peyton Manning
2) Dan Marino
3) Joe Montana
4) Tom Brady
5) John Elway

This does not take championships into account, although this list would not change much for me. Just my opinion of course.

The more interesting discussion is the worst 5. Any lists not containing both JaMarcus Russell and Craig Whelihan will be disqualified.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The more interesting discussion is the worst 5. Any lists not containing both JaMarcus Russell and Craig Whelihan will be disqualified.

You've got to include Akili Smith in the discussion.

[larrymcg421]

I don't think Russell could be considered 5 worst of all time yet, but he's certainly a strong contender to get there. I'd think Ryan Leaf has to be a strong candidate.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'm not sure what I'd equate them to at this point. Low expectations. Winning by a combination of you playing well and other teams doing stupid things (missing open WR, fumbling at bad times, committing stupid penalties) outcoaching the opposition and having a QB that nobody really trusts after taking over from a fan favorit. . . . oh my God. . . Denver is the 2001 Patriots.

Yikes.

there are worse things to be! that bodes well for a SB-win!

[gstelmack]

I don't know what would happen to the NFL if Denver and Cincinnatti met in the AFC championship game. All we need is for Indy to have an early playoff exit and we're good to go. Baltimore, New England, and Pittsburgh are all looking very mortal right now.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The more interesting discussion is the worst 5. Any lists not containing both JaMarcus Russell and Craig Whelihan will be disqualified.

You've got to start with Terry Bradshaw, right? He's the only QB to have three games with a 0.0 passer rating.

List of NFL quarterbacks who have posted a passer rating of zero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The more interesting discussion is the worst 5. Any lists not containing both JaMarcus Russell and Craig Whelihan will be disqualified.

The top 5 worst QB's I have seen play:

1) Ryan Leaf
2) Akili Smith
3) Eric Hipple
4) Andre Ware
5) Tim Couch

[RomaGoth]

Derek Anderson is the new Otto Graham.


Otto Graham Cleveland Browns 2-15, 20 yards, 2 Int

Derek Anderson Cleveland Browns 2-17, 23 yards, 1 Int

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

The top 5 worst QB's I have seen play:

1) Ryan Leaf
2) Akili Smith
3) Eric Hipple
4) Andre Ware
5) Tim Couch

There are numerous QB's worse than Tim Couch, who had a 75.1 career QB rating.

[Dr. Sak]

Cade McNown, Heath Shuler, Eli Manning???

[Butter]

The worst part is, I started Anderson in fantasy this week.

The best part is, I still won.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Cade McNown, Heath Shuler, Eli Manning???

I forgot about McNown and Shuler. There are a lot of horrible QB's that could make this list, I guess it just comes down to which ones I remembered first.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

5) Tim Couch

Oh come on, Couch was orders of magnitude better than Russell is. He was merely bad, not the historically bad we are talking about here. In fact, Couch's career QB rating is 75 - that was average during his career.

Did you not catch many San Diego games when Whelihan played? He was worse than Leaf.

Surprisingly, Russell had a not-historically-bad year last year. Really screws up his career QB rating.

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I don't think Russell could be considered 5 worst of all time yet, but he's certainly a strong contender to get there. I'd think Ryan Leaf has to be a strong candidate.

Well, the thing about the "5 worst" QB discussion instead of the "5 best" is that there is no waiting a few years to see how they add to their accomplishments. Historically bad QBs rarely even get 20 starts, we have to evaluate their fleeting ineptitude. JaMarcus actually has only 1 less game played in the NFL than Leaf, albeit 4 less starts. Ware only ever started 6 NFL games, Klingler 24, Akili 17. Compared to other historically bad QB's, I'd say we now have a comparable body of work from JaMarcus.

[larrymcg421]

Including Couch on the worst list only makes sense if you're talking about bang for buck, and even then he's still miles ahead of Leaf.

[stevew]

I wouldn't be shocked if Brady Quinn ends up on a worst QB list at some point. As well as Alex Smith.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Oh come on, Couch was orders of magnitude better than Russell is. He was merely bad, not the historically bad we are talking about here. In fact, Couch's career QB rating is 75 - that was average during his career.

Did you not catch many San Diego games when Whelihan played? He was worse than Leaf.

Surprisingly, Russell had a not-historically-bad year last year. Really screws up his career QB rating.

I was excluding Russell until a future date when we could further gauge his suckitude. Couch was just a name that came to mind, easily replaced with other names such as Cleo Lemon, Heath Shuler, Cade McNown, Rex Grossman (a terrible QB despite the numerous chances and games played), Bubby Brister, Neil O'donnell, Drew Henson, Chris Weinke, etc...etc..

I realize some of these players have played numerous seasons, but I am too lazy to look up their career numbers, and my perception of them is that they suck (see: Brister, Grossman, O'Donnell).

I have never seen Whelihan play.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Worst NFL quarterback ever: Henry Burris. Yes, I'm declaring that even though his NFL career lasted only 6 games.

Game 1: 1-6 passing, 28 yards, 1 int, 6.9 passer rating, 2 rushes for 19 yards
Game 2: 1-1 passing, 45 yards, 1 TD, 158.3 passer rating (perfection!)
Game 3: 1-3 passing, 6 yards, 81.9 passer rating, 5 rushes for 52 yards
Game 4: 1 rush for 2 yards
Game 5: 8-22 passing, 50 yards, 1 TD, 60.0 passer rating, 3 rushes for 17 yards
Armageddon: 7-19 passing, 78 yards, 4 int, 10.3 passer rating, 4 rushes for 14 yards

Overall line: 18-51 passing, 207 yards, 3 TD, 5 int, 28.4 passer rating, 15 rushes for 104 yards

Almost as many rushes as completions, more interceptions than touchdowns, and a passer rating worse than if every throw had fallen to the ground incomplete. Yes, you can argue that Ryan Leaf was worse, but you would be wrong and I would like to stab you with a fork. The best part about being bad is having comedy value, and Henry Burris' rushing stats compared to his passing stats are the comedy value that pushes him to the bottom of the barrel.

Seriously, I would like to stab you with a fork.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Worst NFL quarterback ever: Henry Burris. Yes, I'm declaring that even though his NFL career lasted only 6 games.

Game 1: 1-6 passing, 28 yards, 1 int, 6.9 passer rating, 2 rushes for 19 yards
Game 2: 1-1 passing, 45 yards, 1 TD, 158.3 passer rating (perfection!)
Game 3: 1-3 passing, 6 yards, 81.9 passer rating, 5 rushes for 52 yards
Game 4: 1 rush for 2 yards
Game 5: 8-22 passing, 50 yards, 1 TD, 60.0 passer rating, 3 rushes for 17 yards
Armageddon: 7-19 passing, 78 yards, 4 int, 10.3 passer rating, 4 rushes for 14 yards

Overall line: 18-51 passing, 207 yards, 3 TD, 5 int, 28.4 passer rating, 15 rushes for 104 yards

Almost as many rushes as completions, more interceptions than touchdowns, and a passer rating worse than if every throw had fallen to the ground incomplete. Yes, you can argue that Ryan Leaf was worse, but you would be wrong and I would like to stab you with a fork. The best part about being bad is having comedy value, and Henry Burris' rushing stats compared to his passing stats are the comedy value that pushes him to the bottom of the barrel.

Seriously, I would like to stab you with a fork.

But he was a undrafted free-agent,not a 1st rounder like Ryan. Not a bad CFL qb though

[larrymcg421]

Neil O'Donnell: 81.8 QB Rating, 55-45 record.
Rex Grossman: 70.2 QB rating, 19-12 record.
Bubby Brister: 72.3 QB rating, 37-38 record.

By contrast, the guys that are REALLY bad...

Ryan Leaf: 50.0 QB rating, 4-17 record.
Craig Whelihan: 52.4 QB rating, 2-12 record.
Akili Smith: 52.3 QB Rating, 3-14 record.

[cartman]

Another great first round QB:

Jim Druckenmiller

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I was excluding Russell until a future date when we could further gauge his suckitude.

He's already played as much as Leaf, more than other guys on your list.

I'll come out and say it, he's throwing the ball as badly right now as anyone who has ever thrown it.*

* written before I saw the Henry Burris stats.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by cartman

Another great first round QB:

Jim Druckenmiller

I'll never forget the chants I heard at the XFL game where Druckenmiller was the QB.

"Druck you suck. Druck you suck"

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Samdari

He's already played as much as Leaf, more than other guys on your list.

I'll come out and say it, he's throwing the ball as badly right now as anyone who has ever thrown it.*

* written before I saw the Henry Burris stats.

Maybe I am waiting for him to be out of the NFL....

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

You've got to start with Terry Bradshaw, right? He's the only QB to have three games with a 0.0 passer rating.

List of NFL quarterbacks who have posted a passer rating of zero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okay, but a serious answer from looking at that page is Gary Keithley, a QB for the Cardinals in 1973.

Gary Keithley 1973 Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

It looks like he played some QB early in the season as a backup (although he threw every pass in the Giants game, the site says Jim Hart was the starter), and seemed to do okay. Then he starts the last two games of the season, and gets a 0.0 rating in both of them. They end up being his only two starts. Oddly enough he was 1-1 as a starter -- in the 2nd to last game against the Falcons, who look like they were in the hunt for the wild card, he threw an interception returned for a TD to put them behind 10-0, but they ended up winning 32-10 thanks to 243 yards rushing.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

But he was a undrafted free-agent,not a 1st rounder like Ryan. Not a bad CFL qb though

Once Burris took several snaps from center, he was technically an NFL quarterback just like Ryan Leaf. All I'm saying is that Henry Burris is the worst NFL quarterback ever, not with comparison to his draft status or expectations. I'm also saying that Bubby Brister is the best.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Seriously, I would like to stab you with a fork.

Internet violence is cool.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Worst NFL quarterback ever: Henry Burris. Yes, I'm declaring that even though his NFL career lasted only 6 games.

Game 1: 1-6 passing, 28 yards, 1 int, 6.9 passer rating, 2 rushes for 19 yards
Game 2: 1-1 passing, 45 yards, 1 TD, 158.3 passer rating (perfection!)
Game 3: 1-3 passing, 6 yards, 81.9 passer rating, 5 rushes for 52 yards
Game 4: 1 rush for 2 yards
Game 5: 8-22 passing, 50 yards, 1 TD, 60.0 passer rating, 3 rushes for 17 yards
Armageddon: 7-19 passing, 78 yards, 4 int, 10.3 passer rating, 4 rushes for 14 yards

Overall line: 18-51 passing, 207 yards, 3 TD, 5 int, 28.4 passer rating, 15 rushes for 104 yards

Almost as many rushes as completions, more interceptions than touchdowns, and a passer rating worse than if every throw had fallen to the ground incomplete. Yes, you can argue that Ryan Leaf was worse, but you would be wrong and I would like to stab you with a fork. The best part about being bad is having comedy value, and Henry Burris' rushing stats compared to his passing stats are the comedy value that pushes him to the bottom of the barrel.

Seriously, I would like to stab you with a fork.

CFL! The worst QB ever was [insert New Orleans VooDoo crappy QB here]!