Maximum Football???

[Toddzilla]

Is there any more hilarity going on over on the forums? I haven't seen much from there in a while.

/transparent attempt to post first on page eighty.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by twothree

I am probably wrong, but post-release to me sounds like the next version of the game.

Maximum Football "Too...bad you paid for it"

Maximus Football "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?!"

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

There really is no good reason for anyone to sign an NDA after a game is released unless their only motive is to keep people from honestly talking about how they view the game. Because now, they can hold that NDA over them indefinitely since no one will know when they will be finished patching the game.

Good point. You would think that they would want people talking about all of the changes and improvements. I suppose they are hoping to capture some more uninformed customers. Anyone want to bet that if they do make some major improvements, the game is released as Maximum Football 2.

[Pumpy Tudors]

It would be really awesome (read: not awesome) if he spent the next few weeks on this "post-release version" and then released it as Maximum Football 2. He could have the sequel out within two or three months of the original. His development cycles would be getting much faster.

At this rate, we'd probably see Maximum Football 22 by Thanksgiving... Canadian Thanksgiving, of course.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Is there any more hilarity going on over on the forums? I haven't seen much from there in a while.

/transparent attempt to post first on page eighty.

The newest thing seems to be the forum members just figured out how to use the forum's ignore button. Yes, they're an impressive group.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

It would be really awesome (read: not awesome) if he spent the next few weeks on this "post-release version" and then released it as Maximum Football 2. He could have the sequel out within two or three months of the original. His development cycles would be getting much faster.

At this rate, we'd probably see Maximum Football 22 by Thanksgiving... Canadian Thanksgiving, of course.

Anything to keep Jennfier well fed.

[digamma]

You also have the guy who says a 42-27 first quarter looks about right for Arena...errr...indoor football.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by digamma

You also have the guy who says a 42-27 first quarter looks about right for Arena...errr...indoor football.

Oh, good grief, someone said that? Some indoor games end with that as a final score. I've been to my share of Arena Football shootouts, but 42-27 in the first quarter?!

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Oh, good grief, someone said that? Some indoor games end with that as a final score. I've been to my share of Arena Football shootouts, but 42-27 in the first quarter?!

yeah but they customized the scoring so that indoor rouges were worth 12 points each.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Is anyone else getting the impression that Richard Chamberlain is constantly getting notified whenever this thread gets updated?

So, nobody got the Richard Chamberlain thing, huh? Nobody?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

So, nobody got the Richard Chamberlain thing, huh? Nobody?

Maximum Humor

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

So, nobody got the Richard Chamberlain thing, huh? Nobody?

This thread moves too quickly. I would have gotten it if I had seen it the first time.

[Pumpy Tudors]

BTW, Thornbird, since you're getting this in e-mail, why didn't you show up to the party last night? Ronald was wearing his raccoon pants, and I brought twice as much butter as last time. We can't do this shit by ourselves.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Oh, good grief, someone said that? Some indoor games end with that as a final score. I've been to my share of Arena Football shootouts, but 42-27 in the first quarter?!

at your service, Pumps...

RE: No passing indoor - 4/11/2006 4:11:40 AM garysorrell Matrix Trooper Posts: 41 Joined: 1/29/2005 Status: offline Well, I upped the QB Threshold thingy from 2.5 to 4.5, and this is what I got. Score is high for 15min qtrs, but it is how indoor football should be..it was a cpu v cpu...had fun watching I only let it play thru about 13min or so of the first quarter. Attachment (1) < Message edited by garysorrell -- 4/11/2006 4:13:59 AM > (in reply to Marauders) Post #: 8

RE: No passing indoor - 4/11/2006 4:13:25 AM garysorrell Matrix Trooper Posts: 41 Joined: 1/29/2005 Status: offline I saw lots of passes thrown on the run by the QBs, occasional runs, and a QB keeper for a TD. All in all a darn fine representation of indoor goodness. I think return yards are being recorded as rush yds, the 100yd rusher was my return man....ran one back for a td. Attachment (1) < Message edited by garysorrell -- 4/11/2006 4:15:17 AM >

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

So, nobody got the Richard Chamberlain thing, huh? Nobody?

I just got it now. Guess I'm a little slow this morning.

[albionmoonlight]

I only let it play thru about 13min or so of the first quarter

I just don't get this. Why don't people let games play all the way through? That would really help in terms of finding bugs, etc.

Isn't the point of a sim (as opposed to an arcade game) to sim the games. Why would you want to watch less than 1/4 of the game you are simming?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I just don't get this. Why don't people let games play all the way through? That would really help in terms of finding bugs, etc.

Isn't the point of a sim (as opposed to an arcade game) to sim the games. Why would you want to watch less than 1/4 of the game you are simming?

That is how long it takes people to get bored with their custom uniforms and the want to go back and create more?

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

So, nobody got the Richard Chamberlain thing, huh? Nobody?

I got it, I just didn't think it was funny...

[st.cronin]

I don't get it. Who's Richard Chamberlain?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't get it. Who's Richard Chamberlain?

He was the star of the movie (miniseries?) The Thornbirds.

[Franklinnoble]

While we're jacking this thread for the 723rd time... how great is it that the lead in a movie about a pedophile Catholic priest ends up being gay?

[bbor]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I just don't get this. Why don't people let games play all the way through? That would really help in terms of finding bugs, etc.

Isn't the point of a sim (as opposed to an arcade game) to sim the games. Why would you want to watch less than 1/4 of the game you are simming?

They cannot play more than a quarter of the game because after the half no team picks up the kick-off and the game stalls.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by BrianD

He was the star of the movie (miniseries?) The Thornbirds.

BLASPHEMY!

Rachel Ward was the star, yummy.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by bbor

They cannot play more than a quarter of the game because after the half no team picks up the kick-off and the game stalls.

But only in the Canadien Pro rules. The American Pro Rules games get all the way to the Heidi Movie before they cut out.

[Pumpy Tudors]

If I was stuck playing in the CFL, I wouldn't pick up the football either.

arena football 4 lyfe

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by BrianD

He was the star of the movie (miniseries?) The Thornbirds.

kinda funny that the title of that series, simply "The Thorn Birds" in English, became "Les oiseaux se cachent pour mourir" in French. (loose translation: "The Birds hide themselves to die") Way to make it long for nothing...

FM

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Yeah, they are "trying to save", but all they are doing is damaging their reputation (in regards to Matrix) even more. They deserve a credit for handing out the refund. That was stand up. Yet here is another move that leaves me shaking my head.

There really is no good reason for anyone to sign an NDA after a game is released unless their only motive is to keep people from honestly talking about how they view the game. Because now, they can hold that NDA over them indefinitely since no one will know when they will be finished patching the game.

I have a higher opinion of Matrix Games' intent. Since the game has been released, I think they've handled themselves admirably: they have admitted the game was buggier than they had hoped; the gave refunds when the problem was pointed out with their retail site; they have consistently stated their intent is to work hard at fixing the bugs; they have handled themselves well on their boards; and they have coordinated a number of patches since the release. I think they are doing all they can to get the game into better shape.

I think this latest move is simply an attempt to fix the game. Sales must have stalled, and they aren't getting the feedback they need to improve the game. So they attempt to jumpstart the revival effort by giving away some games to a select few people to help with a round of internal testing and possibly get the game back on track. From the standpoint of a company that has stated that they are determined to right the problems with the game, I think this is about the best they can do.

At this point, however, they are truly stuck between the rock and the hard place. They must realize that the vast majority of potential customers has given up hope for the game, and they must realize that that game has serious flaws that start at the conceptual level and run through every other level of the game. I'd bet they regret the day they got involved with the game. Having said that, I'd have to think that they feel they should support the game as best as they can, and see if David can do it. If he fails, then the fault lies with him and they can walk away with their reputation relatively secure. If they pull the plug on the game, their reputation with developers could take a worse hit, and they would be left with messy legal issues with David.

However, the overriding issue here is that the fundamental problems with the game are so basic that the game is unfixable given David's current level of ability. From a conceptual standpoint, it's incredibly myopic to think that that one person working alone can make a game to simulate so many different types of football. Maybe someone of incredible talent could pull this off, but when I see David's rudimentary and erroneous understanding of the nuances of the rules of football, I have to conclude that he just isn't knowledgeable enough yet to pull this off.

Also, it's clear that a huge problem with the game at the moment is that the core game engine is unstable given the degree that framerate impacts the play on the field. Trying to fix other errors without first fixing that is like trying to build a house on a shaky foundation: it just ain't gonna work. What confuses me is how no one--at any level of involvement with the game--seems to have realized this is a major problem that should be given priority status. This again leads me to conclude that the people involved with the game don't have the ability yet to get this game right.

In a normal situation, that shouldn't be enough to stop them. We all have limitations. Successful people and business realize their limitations and find resources to compensate for them. If I were Matrix, my initial reaction would be to get some talented people involved in the project that could help David with some of the issues, but even that likely won't work given that much of the game's code is probably organized so that only David can understand it.

In short, I don't think there is a "win" outcome for Matrix games at this point. For now, they are sticking to their promised course of action of supporting both the game and its developer.

All told, though, for me, the development of the game, its release, and the subsequent support have been a fascinating business case study. You couldn't make up a more interesting game development/release story.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I have a higher opinion of Matrix Games' intent. Since the game has been released, I think they've handled themselves admirably: they have admitted the game was buggier than they had hoped; the gave refunds when the problem was pointed out with their retail site; they have consistently stated their intent is to work hard at fixing the bugs; they have handled themselves well on their boards; and they have coordinated a number of patches since the release. I think they are doing all they can to get the game into better shape.

I admit that they are being very professional throughout this whole ordeal, but yet I always think that they put this on themselves. Let's refer to what you said below.

Also, it's clear that a huge problem with the game at the moment is that the core game engine is unstable given the degree that framerate impacts the play on the field. Trying to fix other errors without first fixing that is like trying to build a house on a shaky foundation: it just ain't gonna work. What confuses me is how no one--at any level of involvement with the game--seems to have realized this is a major problem that should be given priority status. This again leads me to conclude that the people involved with the game don't have the ability yet to get this game right.

This is why I start to have mixed feelings for Matrix games. They had a team of people, including Erik, that tested out this game. Anyone, with even a basic knowledge of football, would have noticed the glaring flaws in the game and it seems to me they just ignored it. Sorry if you don't feel this way, but it seems to me that they just wanted the product to get out the door ASAP before more interest starting waning due to their delayed release dates.

All told, though, for me, the development of the game, its release, and the subsequent support have been a fascinating business case study. You couldn't make up a more interesting game development/release story.

I have to agree with this. I have never seen anything like this before. I thought the .400 Studios debacle was pretty bad, but with all the stuff going on with David, Jennifer, and Matrix, it has been eye opening experience.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

They had a team of people, including Erik, that tested out this game. Anyone, with even a basic knowledge of football, would have noticed the glaring flaws in the game and it seems to me they just ignored it.

Obviously they were enthralled by the beer tent.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

I agree. Frankly, I'm amazed at the issues that slipped through. The _only_ explanation I can think of for it is that the last week of quick iterations after the gold announcement created most of these. Otherwise, I have no explanation for it.

You can consider me a liar if you want, but we did not have the vast majority of these issues - or any of the serious ones - on a known issues list before release. In fact, many of these were in previously tested and solid areas, so I have to assume they broke relatively close to release. If we learned any lesson from this, it's to always be willing to take the PR heat and delay an additional two weeks to a month for testing if you have to make a post-gold change. This was the first time we had a post-gold change and delay, so we were making decisions daily on whether it looked good based on testing or not while feeling a significant amount of pressure from our customers and frankly the raging discussions here to release and have the discussion move to the actual game.

In hindsight, we should have been willing to take more flak from the forums in order to allow for more final gold testing. It was not an easy position to be in, but there was no decision to release with these issues, they were simply unknown to us.

This still bothers me.

Every screen shot or movie they released had glaring flaws (that were quickly pointed out here)
How can Matrix say there were none to their knowledge and they just appeared in the gold?
I really want to give Matrix the benefit of the doubt, but some how their comments just don't add up.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Surtt

This still bothers me.

Every screen shot or movie they released had glaring flaws (that were quickly pointed out here)
How can Matrix say there were none to their knowledge and they just appeared in the gold?
I really want to give Matrix the benefit of the doubt, but some how their comments just don't add up.

While I agree to an extent, I think Matrix was relying mostly on their free beta testers to catch issues and as we've seen most of them never get past the first quarter of a game without going back to customize the uniforms.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Surtt

This still bothers me.

Every screen shot or movie they released had glaring flaws (that were quickly pointed out here)
How can Matrix say there were none to their knowledge and they just appeared in the gold?
I really want to give Matrix the benefit of the doubt, but some how their comments just don't add up.

I agree. This is why I won't buy any more Matrix games, not even Shaun's game. To me, this doesn't add up, and I've lost any trust I had in the company.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Bee

While I agree to an extent, I think Matrix was relying mostly on their free beta testers to catch issues and as we've seen most of them never get past the first quarter of a game without going back to customize the uniforms.

However, Erik posted on their forum that they had internal testers as well, and talked about how they were just cleaning up a few more things before release..

[Franklinnoble]

I really thought the whole Thorn Birds digression would have had more staying power... guess I'd better head back to the ole' threadjack drawing board...

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

However, Erik posted on their forum that they had internal testers as well, and talked about how they were just cleaning up a few more things before release..

Yep, but I still think they were relying mostly on their free beta testers to find problems. I suspect the internal testers didn't spend any real time with the game and were mostly just looking for CTDs and the like. Like I said, I think Matrix still has to be held responsible but I think it's more poor management of the testing than shady business practices. Just my opinion of course.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Anyone, with even a basic knowledge of football, would have noticed the glaring flaws in the game and it seems to me they just ignored it.

Which is a point that has made me wonder just who they used to beta the game?

Were there any/enough people who actually had basic knowledge of football involved in the process? And I mean involved, not just listed on the beta team but actually participating.

Given the product to date, I think that's a very legitimate question.

[Antmeister]

Erik just posted this recently....

You know, I just took another look at the FOFC forums and I have to say I'm amazed. We are getting slammed for doing something here that we've done with many titles in the past and which is a responsible step to make sure the game continues to improve. First, we feel it's a good idea to have an active private test team in addition to any public testing. There are obviously going to be some builds in any software that you don't want to release to the public - ongoing development, particularly with the types of improvements David is planning, occasionally puts parts of the game back into an Alpha state for periods of time. When we have things relatively solid, we release another public beta to give customers a chance for early feedback and eventually an official update once we're sure the changes are stable.

In order to make sure the public betas are in reasonably good shape, you need a private test team. We have these, pre and post-release for all of our titles. Every competitor of ours that I'm aware of does the same thing, though not all of them take the extra step to be more open to the public and release periodic public betas while an official update is in development. That makes us more open, not less.

Attrition among volunteer testers, on average in the game software industry, is about 20% per month. There tends to be even more attrition right after a release, for obvious reasons. Our private test team activity was starting to slow down and we decided on another recruitment wave to keep things active. Having all testers under NDA is standard practice, both pre and post-release. All games with post-release updates have ongoing testing, often including volunteers that are under NDA.

There is nothing unusual, bizarre or nefarious about this. To think otherwise frankly displays a lack of knowledge and perspective on how games are created and supported. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at this reaction, but I am. I'm not usually as strong in my responses, but I really find the posts I read on this at FOFC remarkably ill-informed about computer game development and support in general.

Regards,

- Erik

I guess I just never seen this. Am I ill-informed? Probably. But it doesn't make sense to me to give people a free copy of a game just by signing an NDA when the game is currently being sold. I haven't seen this with any other company that I purchased from, but then again, I don't know every one of them.

[rkmsuf]

the game sucks. end of thread.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm not usually as strong in my responses but I really find that Erik and Matrix need to both STFU and shove their whining, their excuse making, and their pathetic performance up their fucking asses.

But I guess it's easier to whine like a 4 year old girl instead of stepping up & admitting the truth: Somebody in your company was stupid enough to get conned by a guy who isn't within light years of providing a professional or even semi-professional product, someone in your company let their reach exceed their grasp and put it into a genre it clearly doesn't have the slightly clue how to handle, and someone in your company has incredibly foolishly decided that they would rather continue the denial two-step than admit the mistakes and move on.

At this point, Hell would almost certainly freeze over before I touched anything these little bitches were associated with in any way.

[JPhillips]

I'm not usually as strong in my responses

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm not usually as strong in my responses...

For you, Jon, this only rises to the level of "Skirt wearing poodle walker". I'm sure you can do MUCH better than this.

I have been a volunteer beta tester for numerous games over the past 15 years, I'd say at least 25 games. So that is a decent sample size. I have NEVER seen one of those games solicit new NDA-level beta testers post-release. Not to say it has never been done in the history of software development, but in my experience, I have never seen it happen.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

This is why I start to have mixed feelings for Matrix games. They had a team of people, including Erik, that tested out this game. Anyone, with even a basic knowledge of football, would have noticed the glaring flaws in the game and it seems to me they just ignored it. Sorry if you don't feel this way, but it seems to me that they just wanted the product to get out the door ASAP before more interest starting waning due to their delayed release dates.

I agree that it's plausible that this is what happened, but I think that there are other possible scenarios that led to the game's release, and we know little of the discussions between Matrix and David.

MF is a very different game than Matrix has released in the past. It's possible that the Matrix people simply didn't test the game to any great depth and weren't the best qualified to examine a football game in the first place. Perhaps they relied on the word of the beta testers and David that the game was ready for release, and only did a cursory check to make sure the thing didn't crash. Along these lines, Erik has mentioned that the game had more bugs than he thought it would.

It's clear that Matrix should have tested the game more before release, and should have handled the release differently, but all things considered I'm reluctant to make the extra jump to say that they purposely released a messy game. I'd also state that they've done their best with the situation post release, and that leads me to give them the benefit of the doubt concerning their intentions on release day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

For you, Jon, this only rises to the level of "Skirt wearing poodle walker".

LMAO, that's a great line (I wish I had thought of it).

I debated my opening & ultimately settled on the mockery angle. It seemed appropriate since it's been a good while since I'd seen a comment so worthy of being mocked. With relatively few statements, this guy has motivated me to at least wonder whether anybody owns the rights to domains like "Matrixgamessuck.com"

Meanwhile, I really don't recall the last time that I thought someone posted a better observation about me, or at least not the last time I got such a good laugh out of one.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I agree that it's plausible that this is what happened, but I think that there are other possible scenarios that led to the game's release, and we know little of the discussions between Matrix and David.

MF is a very different game than Matrix has released in the past. It's possible that the Matrix people simply didn't test the game to any great depth and weren't the best qualified to examine a football game in the first place. Perhaps they relied on the word of the beta testers and David that the game was ready for release, and only did a cursory check to make sure the thing didn't crash. Along these lines, Erik has mentioned that the game had more bugs than he thought it would.

It's clear that Matrix should have tested the game more before release, and should have handled the release differently, but all things considered I'm reluctant to make the extra jump to say that they purposely released a messy game. I'd also state that they've done their best with the situation post release, and that leads me to give them the benefit of the doubt concerning their intentions on release day.

Good post Godzilla Blitz and I had a similar feeling for the company when I saw how they handled the refund situation.

But then I thought back to the movies that were released and I remembered that Erik was testing out the game prior to release. So he decided to post a couple of movies. That is when a number of people observed the yardage problem.

Now think about this. He was playing the game himself. The yardage issue is somewhat excusable, but the other ones that were reported after release are inexcusable. If you played just 5 minutes of the game, a number of those issues would have been noticed.

And I don't know if you recall, but there were a number of issues that they already knew about as well. So whenever somone reported a glaring issue, Erik and a few others of the beta team would say they already knew about it. I would dig up those first bug reports, but I don't really feel like it.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I like to read Bill Harris' blog on gaming, and he wrote a short piece the other day that I think has a lot of to bear on this release and text-sims in general. As usual, the writing is quite good, and he makes a number of interesting points. In places I would disagree with him, but overall I think he makes a number of solid observations.

The article is about halfway down the April page, titled "Tier Three".

(Edit: I originally posted the entire article here, but I'm having second thoughts that I should have asked permission to do that. I have removed the article and left the link. Sorry to make it more difficult to find, but I think many of you will find it worth the time it takes to find it.)

Edit again: It's easier to find at SportsDigs.com. The article is on the front page.

[Franklinnoble]

Let's not throw everyone at Matrix under the bus... there's every indication that PureSim 2006 will be a pretty good game...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I like to read Bill Harris' blog on gaming, and he wrote a short piece the other day that I think has a lot of to bear on this release and text-sims in general. As usual, the writing is quite good, and he makes a number of interesting points.

The article is about halfway down the April page, titled "Tier Three", but here is the whole thing. It's a bit long, but I thought a few people here might enjoy it:

Good article... that's why I asked his permission to re-publish it at SportsDigs.com.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Let's not throw everyone at Matrix under the bus... there's every indication that PureSim 2006 will be a pretty good game...

They weren't thrown Franklin, they ran into the street and lay down in front of it.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Good article... that's why I asked his permission to re-publish it at SportsDigs.com.

In retrospect, I think I should ask permission before I posted it here as well.

I'm going to change my above post to a link to the page...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

In retrospect, I think I should ask permission before I posted it here as well.

I'm going to change my above post to a link to the page...

Bill's very cool about it. I wanted to make sure I had permission, because I intened to publish it right on the front page. If you were to give him a heads-up about it via e-mail, he may even come over and enjoy our nice little thread on the subject.