If Trump Loses In November, What Do You Think Happens Next

[RainMaker]

I see the DoJ took that contempt referral for Bannon seriously.

[Lathum]

Jan. 6 Defendant Who Said She's 'Definitely Not Going To Jail' Sentenced To Prison | HuffPost Latest News


Not nearly enough time for this entitles POS.

[GrantDawg]

When Rittenhouse gets acquitted on the murder/attempted murder charges, are we looking at more rioting? How strong do you think the reaction will be, other than just all the MAGA people being super-smug about it?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

When Rittenhouse gets acquitted on the murder/attempted murder charges, are we looking at more rioting? How strong do you think the reaction will be, other than just all the MAGA people being super-smug about it?

Maybe I'm not reading the room, but I think it's going to be very limited. I feel like the mood is almost back to hopeless resignation rather than rage with a chance to change things.

SI

[PilotMan]

I think the reaction will be very strong in some locations and non existent in others. Like SI says, hopeless resignation, but I think by now, the writing is on the wall that this kid is completely and undeniably innocent (in that Wisconsin judge's eyes anyway). I do think it's possibly that the reaction to it will correspond to the level of victory lapping that's done and how long it goes on though.

[cuervo72]

I've been wondering about this line of defense though, regarding the Grosskreutz confrontation; the idea that Rittenhouse was at that point defending himself and was justified in shooting.

So...say you are an active shooter. You've shot and killed someone. If a "Good Samaritan" -- or a number of them -- comes at you to try to stop you, can you just claim self defense and fire at will, all bets are off? I mean, at that point you are defending yourself, right?

[GrantDawg]

It is a weird situation. If the armed guy had shot Rittenhouse, he most likely would gotten off on self defense. The whole thing is a little crazy.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I've been wondering about this line of defense though, regarding the Grosskreutz confrontation; the idea that Rittenhouse was at that point defending himself and was justified in shooting.

So...say you are an active shooter. You've shot and killed someone. If a "Good Samaritan" -- or a number of them -- comes at you to try to stop you, can you just claim self defense and fire at will, all bets are off? I mean, at that point you are defending yourself, right?

That's what makes this case difficult. Based on the scope of this trial he probably should be innocent, but the narrow scope of what he's bring charged with ignores the big picture of the situation. Crossing state lines with a weapon, while underage, to provide security that wasn't asked for puts in you in a situation where conflict is far more likely. At some point peronsal responsibility needs to be taken into account but that's not what's being done here. This is simply "was he justifiably feeling threatened?".

[cuervo72]

So inner-city shootouts. If you can't prove who started the gunfire, all other things equal everyone walks because it's all self-defense??

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

So inner-city shootouts. If you can't prove who started the gunfire, all other things equal everyone walks because it's all self-defense??

Yeah, that'll definitely... hahaha, we know that's not going to happen. Those kids don't look like Rittenhouse, don't have a sympathetic judge, and, I'm guessing, the best lawyer in the county that right wing money can pay for

SI

[RainMaker]

Reuters unmasks Trump supporters terrifying U.S. election officials

Could also go in the police thread since it seems police are not really interested in these types of criminals.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Reuters unmasks Trump supporters terrifying U.S. election officials

Could also go in the police thread since it seems police are not really interested in these types of criminals.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Reuters unmasks Trump supporters terrifying U.S. election officials

Could also go in the police thread since it seems police are not really interested in these types of criminals.

So having read that...what is their main goal? Is it to put Trump back in the White House permanently? Again, what does that do for them? Do they want minorities will go back to the fields? Do they want women to be quiet, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Do they want gays to be killed or at least closeted?

What is the end game? What is the vision of these people?

The one is calling for a civil war...against whom? For what? To turn society back into the 1950's? White idyllic society?

I think the bigger driver is that a lot of these people are losers. They lost in life. They made bad decisions and work menial jobs with no future. They want to blame it on liberal society. They want to blame it on migrants or minorities. They want to blame it on LGBT.

They want the world to burn. They want to hole up in their ramshackle communities and force society to the gun.

They believe in the pull of social media to target and destroy any part of civil discourse.

They want you to be as poor and hopeless as them. And if you have any piece of decency to those they target, then you need a bullet in the head like their enemies.

Social media has replaced religion. The truth is many of these so-called Christians or Evangelicals know that their faith based beliefs are eroding in greater society, and if that is truth, then what is the point of being good or moral? The basest instinct is to subject your enemies to the sword.

We're on the cusp of a Reign of Terror. Some if not many of these extremists will try to act out the fantasy of Jan. 6th with bloodshed. They're out for blood and feel justified to do so. If Rittenhouse walks, they'll be even more empowered. What's to stop them? Shame? God? Republicans?

And if there are liberal or moderate hubs, they either intimidate with threats or start hitting soft targets.

We got a guy who lost the election who is a Trumper, who wanted to storm the school board. He's contesting the election as fraudulent because he lost by 10k votes.

If Trump is re-elected, he will not leave office until he dies.

[JPhillips]

This should be a huge story, but Dems releasing it on a Friday means we'll be past it by Monday.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/1...c-covid-521128

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This should be a huge story, but Dems releasing it on a Friday means we'll be past it by Monday.

Emails reveal new details of Trump White House interference in CDC Covid planning - POLITICO

And then there's this stupid:

After conversations with leadership at the CDC, including then-Director Robert Redfield, Michael Iademarco, one of the CDC’s leaders overseeing epidemiology and laboratory services, told Casey to delete the email. “I believe he said that the director [Redfield] said to delete the email and that anyone else who had received it, you know, should do as well,” Casey said in her testimony.

Like, that's not how email works at all. That's not going to actually, you know, delete the email off the server. You know that, right?

SI

[PilotMan]

Basically forcing the CDC to isolate itself by changing the channels by which it disseminated information so that trump wouldn't look like he was being contradicted. Which of course, allows the WH to have plausible deniability and a reason to punish them if they don't like what they hear, and forces the CDC to take the fall should shit actually make trump look bad.

It's the same pattern that he used over and over again in his business and political life.

This is not normal.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This should be a huge story, but Dems releasing it on a Friday means we'll be past it by Monday.

Emails reveal new details of Trump White House interference in CDC Covid planning - POLITICO

Do you think it really matters? That it would change one vote? People with any kind of sense already know that Trump did everything he could to get in the way of a reasonable response to the virus. And if you don't know that he had no concern over violating the law and common norms after his post-election reaction, this is not going to change your mind.

I am at this point squarely in the opinion that the only chance of Trump or someone very Trumpy not winning in 4 years is some real improvement on peoples quality of life. If we are still looking at high gas prices and soaring inflation while common goods are regularly not available on shelves in the next 2-4 years, we should just be ready for a Republican blood bath.

[JPhillips]

Does it matter and will it change votes are two different questions. Yes, absolutely to the first. No, to the second. It's important, though, to recognize how the Trump admin cared mostly about politics and made decisions that ended up killing thousands.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Does it matter and will it change votes are two different questions. Yes, absolutely to the first. No, to the second. It's important, though, to recognize how the Trump admin cared mostly about politics and made decisions that ended up killing thousands.

I'm talking about whether the story is a Friday dump, or the lead story in the Sunday paper. The reports should be made, the government should try to find ways to prevent it from happening again etc. When the story was reported is not very important.

[JPhillips]

I think Dems have to realize they are fighting for democracy. They may not win, but they have to realize everything is a messaging fight. Dems are too often fine with a Friday news dump, with the hope that the media will make it a big deal. It never happens, but they keep drinking from the same well.

And this shit should matter, too. It's pretty clear now that the 1/6 insurrection was the last step in a detailed plan to stage a coup.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/memo...ry?id=81134003

[JPhillips]

dola

This, too.

democrats have some of the worst strategists in the world that they aren’t taking this and telling republicans to publicly renounce trump or they’ll just have kamala harris do the thing trump claims mike pence could have done https://t.co/cETPZfDbvP

— kilgore trout, uatx professor of turnip studies (@KT_So_It_Goes) November 14, 2021

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

This, too.

What? The message is supposed to be "we are going to save democracy by destroying democracy'? Yeah, that is not going to work.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think Dems have to realize they are fighting for democracy. They may not win, but they have to realize everything is a messaging fight. Dems are too often fine with a Friday news dump, with the hope that the media will make it a big deal. It never happens, but they keep drinking from the same well.

And this shit should matter, too. It's pretty clear now that the 1/6 insurrection was the last step in a detailed plan to stage a coup.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/memo...ry?id=81134003

I also agree that we are fighting for democracy. But the messaging has to be "Democracy improves your life." People are going to vote for who makes the trains run on time more often than a grand philosophical position.

[albionmoonlight]

It must be wild for Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger to be sitting in on these 1/6 committee meetings.

CHAIRMAN: "OK. We just got *even more* highly credible information that paints the GOP in a horrible light and shows that Trump, with GOP support, was trying to overthrow American democracy and replace it with a white nationalist ethnostate.

"Our first question--how can we use this information in a way that makes sure that (1) nothing gets done, (2) the people who did it are never punished, and--most importantly--(3) it hurts us and helps the GOP politically?

"Oh, sorry, Liz and Adam. I keep forgetting that y'all are on this committee. I'm used to talking to only Democrats. But, you know, feel free to jump in if you have any ideas on how to make it less likely that Democrats get elected. That was, is, and will always be our #1 goal as elected Democrats in Washington, and we are happy to hear any ideas you have on that point."

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

What? The message is supposed to be "we are going to save democracy by destroying democracy'? Yeah, that is not going to work.

It won't, it'll reinforce the idea that the other side will do exactly what "we're" (as in R's) going to do, so we just have to do it first. It won't change anything. It saves democracy, by destroying it, but the other side is that democracy is destroyed anyway. So it boils down to which side would you rather have in charge. Regular people want "their" side in charge, and the R's are much more inclined to support an authoritarian leader, while D's are much more inclined to defer and hope the process will see things out the right way through the goodness of men. It will take strong people on both sides to avoid what seems to be the inevitable path toward failure.

[GrantDawg]

So, we fight an authoritarian state by creating an authoritarian state? "We don't allow votes to count, but we are nice"? Yeah, that's a hard no dawg.

[Brian Swartz]

Yeah there literally is no such thing as 'saving democracy by destroying it'. You're either in favor of saving democracy, or you're not. What this actually would be is 'giving up on democracy without a fight'.

[PilotMan]

That's exactly my point.

[JPhillips]

You can message and force the media to ask the GOP tough questions without actually having Harris throw the election. Do you disagree with Trump or do you think Harris can determine the winner of the election doesn't mark the beginning of authoritarian rule.

[PilotMan]

I must not be communicating well today. My fault. You can't even threaten to have Harris do the things that the right has actually tried, without the right pointing and saying "see! They're doing just what we said they would! They cannot be trusted!" when in fact, they would totally allow that to happen on their own behalf. Should the left decide that yes, indeed they can do that, and they should, because it's the argument, then all you've done is trade one suppressor for another. Neither is correct in this case, however, I get the strong feeling that we're much more likely to see this employed once more, from the right, before it's tried on the left, because the right is more accepting of an authoritarian ruler. And just like Jon, would rather have one, who will suppress the 'enemy' (insert anything you'd like here, from coastal elites, to highly educated to media) and preserve their own favorite way of life, whatever form that might take...for the purpose of preserving their perverted view of democracy.

[Brian Swartz]

After looking back at it, I think the rest of us just need to learn to read better . That happens some times around here, sorry I contributed to it.

[RainMaker]

I-Team: Las Vegas man, whose case GOP highlighted as voter fraud, to plead guilty to voting twice | KLAS

[Lathum]

Looks like Gosar is going to be stripped of committee assignments and censured.

Who would have known when a guys own siblings openly campaign against him he may not be fit for the gig.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Looks like Gosar is going to be stripped of committee assignments and censured.

Who would have known when a guys own siblings openly campaign against him he may not be fit for the gig.

This is so long overdue, the guy is a pariah and embarrassment to this state, outside of his little enclave in the sticks.

But even there some hard core conservatives in his district are not happy with him, while some that cheer harder for him than ever, if you happened to see the piece where they interviewed his constituents.

[Lathum]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/polit...ing/index.html


QAnon Shaman gets 41 months

[albionmoonlight]

Trump is threatening to sue the Pulitzer Prize.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Lathum

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/polit...ing/index.html


QAnon Shaman gets 41 months

I am so worried he might not get his special diet.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Trump is threatening to sue the Pulitzer Prize.

Like the actual prize?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/polit...ing/index.html


QAnon Shaman gets 41 months

I guess that feels right. Not sure if he got violent or anything, but if he didn't, that seems fair.

He wouldn't have gotten the leniency if he was another race/ethnicity, but over 3 years in prison is a lot.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The QAnon Shaman apparently has a deal in place and will plead guilty tomorrow. Sounds like time served unless a Judge says differently.

Rainmaker is wrong again

[RainMaker]

Hey, at least someone is going to jail.

Continue on with your moronic economic takes from Fox News that get debunked in minutes.

[albionmoonlight]

This question is for Jon. Not sure if he comes in here or not, but it didn't seem worth starting a new thread on.

Jon--you've pointed out that unlike pretty much all of us on this board, you actually know a lot of Trump supporters and have insights into the way they really think. Which makes you one of the only people I know who can give an insightful answer to this question.

I was driving my son to a camping trip a couple weekends ago, so I was going through rural NC/Trump country. And while there were a few Fuck Joe Biden signs, thin blue line flags, etc., the majority of political signage was Trump and/or Trump 2024 specific. Which got me wondering, what would Trump supporters do if he passed away early next year? On the one hand, their support seems to be very Trump specific. He's not a symbol. They support Trump. And if he goes away, all bets are off.

On the other hand, it seems unlikely that someone engaged enough to be putting up 2024 election signs in 2021 is going to just go back to fishing if Trump goes away.

tl;dr If Trump goes away, what do Trump supporters end up doing over the short/medium term?

[Lathum]

I hope that scenario plays out

[PilotMan]

A lot of the trump organization and the trump fellowship behaves like a gang, or organized crime group. If the the head were to suddenly be removed from it, a battle for the remaining support would happen. You might see some fracturing of it, you might see someone else quickly anointed as the true successor, but what you won't see, is it go away.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

This question is for Jon. Not sure if he comes in here or not, but it didn't seem worth starting a new thread on.

Jon--you've pointed out that unlike pretty much all of us on this board, you actually know a lot of Trump supporters and have insights into the way they really think. Which makes you one of the only people I know who can give an insightful answer to this question.

I was driving my son to a camping trip a couple weekends ago, so I was going through rural NC/Trump country. And while there were a few Fuck Joe Biden signs, thin blue line flags, etc., the majority of political signage was Trump and/or Trump 2024 specific. Which got me wondering, what would Trump supporters do if he passed away early next year? On the one hand, their support seems to be very Trump specific. He's not a symbol. They support Trump. And if he goes away, all bets are off.

On the other hand, it seems unlikely that someone engaged enough to be putting up 2024 election signs in 2021 is going to just go back to fishing if Trump goes away.

tl;dr If Trump goes away, what do Trump supporters end up doing over the short/medium term?

If that happens, no matter what the real cause, he will have been assassinated. I've often thought the same if Covid had killed him. It wouldn't have been covid but a plot against America, taking the greatest leader in American history.

It's scary thinking about how those folks will react when he does die.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

This question is for Jon. Not sure if he comes in here or not, but it didn't seem worth starting a new thread on.

Jon--you've pointed out that unlike pretty much all of us on this board, you actually know a lot of Trump supporters and have insights into the way they really think. Which makes you one of the only people I know who can give an insightful answer to this question.

I was driving my son to a camping trip a couple weekends ago, so I was going through rural NC/Trump country. And while there were a few Fuck Joe Biden signs, thin blue line flags, etc., the majority of political signage was Trump and/or Trump 2024 specific. Which got me wondering, what would Trump supporters do if he passed away early next year? On the one hand, their support seems to be very Trump specific. He's not a symbol. They support Trump. And if he goes away, all bets are off.

On the other hand, it seems unlikely that someone engaged enough to be putting up 2024 election signs in 2021 is going to just go back to fishing if Trump goes away.

tl;dr If Trump goes away, what do Trump supporters end up doing over the short/medium term?

That is really a good question, and one I have pondered often. It does seem like most of the Trump supporters I know are Trump-only. Many are not even that politically engaged other than anything liberals want is bad, and even if what they want seems good it is still bad. They don't really trust anyone other than Trump, so when Trump is gone, IDK? My best guess is Don Jr. He has the best chance of keeping their allegiance.

[JPhillips]

You may want to look up the Mongol successor states after the death of Ghengis Khan.

[albionmoonlight]

See, this is why we need Jon. We're here speculating about the Mongol successor states. We need someone who actually knows and understands some Trump supporters to give us the real scoop :-)

[Swaggs]

I think the folks you are talking about, of which there are also many in West Virginia, will consolidate around Don Jr. He is ambitious and, similarly to Donald, a bomb thrower that knows how to speak to and mobilize folks that are not classically conservative. Around here, I feel like a lot of the people that are apt to still fly their Trump flags do not like outsiders interfering in their lives or telling them how they should feel about issues that are largely outside of their immediate concern.

The problem Don Jr. will have is that the there are plenty of smarter, more hard-working, and more well educated politicians that have been biding their time and I don't think people like Rick Scott and Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz will just concede the next 8-10 years to him without putting up some resistance. And given how fragile the Trumps' egos are, I can easily see him not wanting to risk losing or looking bad, so he may try to further split the party or, more likely, prefer to be a power broker that continues to campaign, raise money, and earn a living traveling around the country being adored without actually having to do the heavy lifting of governing.

I think an interesting sideshow that seems to be developing is the possibility of seeing a non-Trump conservative or conservatives like Cheney or Kinzinger or Flake run for president (without challenging the GOP congressional races) in order to siphon enough votes to sway the presidency away from Trump or Jr. They probably couldn't win, but they really have nothing to lose with their futures, since all but a handful of elected GOPers have allowed Trump to go scorched Earth on them.

[miked]

The Trumpers I know are buying more of the message, not the messenger. They are buying on folks like Gosar, Boebert, Greene, Desantis, and other people just spouting the same thing.

[sterlingice]

None of Trump's kids have the charisma to be Trump the second or his political chops. Don Jr can try, but too many of the good ol' boys who love Trump for his larger than life, overcompensating, bully personality will see Don Jr as that kid who they stuffed in the locker at school. Ivanka's a woman so that's right out. And Eric is dumb enough to eat paste and would get destroyed politically.

It'll be whoever fashions themself as the more competent Trump-lite, who still mostly says the quiet part loud but not as often to turn off a full 50% of the electorate. So far, DeSantis is winning that race but it's still early and has a lot to do with how long Trump lives.

SI