POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Lathum]

According to NPR over 300k people have visited vote.org directly from swifts link.

[RainMaker]

And for the love of God can this country take it easy on the Haitians for once. They've been the go-to for KKK propaganda for decades and we just screw them over in Haiti and when they come here for a better life. I know it goes back hundreds of years but it'd be nice to go a few decades where we don't just make their lives hell.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And for the love of God can this country take it easy on the Haitians for once. They've been the go-to for KKK propaganda for decades and we just screw them over in Haiti and when they come here for a better life. I know it goes back hundreds of years but it'd be nice to go a few decades where we don't just make their lives hell.

Literally centuries We helped enforce France's slaveowner reparations right from the start of their revolution. It took Haiti like 125 years to pay off this debt.

[JPhillips]

Codifying Roe as a law prior to the SCOTUS decision would have weakened abortion rights. It would have gone from a right to a law that the GOP could overturn.

[Lathum]

ummmmm

JD Vance on Fox News: We admire Taylor Swift's music, but I don't think most Americans are gonna be influenced by a billionaire celebrity who I think is fundamentally disconnected from the interests and the problems of most Americans pic.twitter.com/h2OqPNvnq9

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) September 11, 2024

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There is no split in the party. It's overwhelmingly in support of cutting off weapons and advancing a permanent ceasefire. And not just among Democrats, it's also moderates and swing state voters. It's not even close.

Even if you're willing to overlook a genocide which most of you are, it's just a terrible political decision to support something that most of the country doesn't want. She's the one choosing the unpopular policies.

This isn't true at all. We know most, almost all, of the party is going to vote for Harris regardless of her stance on Gaza. How much of the electorate will she lose? One percent? Less? Two percent? I hope we can agree that she isn't losing huge amounts of votes from people who would otherwise support her.

So play out switching positions. How much support does she gain? How much does she lose? Again, not huge numbers but I think it's very likely she loses as much or more than she currently will. That's the political problem, and there's no answer to this that won't upset a small, but admittedly important in a close election, constituency.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Lathum

ummmmm

JD Vance on Fox News: We admire Taylor Swift's music, but I don't think most Americans are gonna be influenced by a billionaire celebrity who I think is fundamentally disconnected from the interests and the problems of most Americans pic.twitter.com/h2OqPNvnq9

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) September 11, 2024

Yeah, she's not stupid/crazy enough to have that kind of influence over Americans.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This isn't true at all. We know most, almost all, of the party is going to vote for Harris regardless of her stance on Gaza. How much of the electorate will she lose? One percent? Less? Two percent? I hope we can agree that she isn't losing huge amounts of votes from people who would otherwise support her.

So play out switching positions. How much support does she gain? How much does she lose? Again, not huge numbers but I think it's very likely she loses as much or more than she currently will. That's the political problem, and there's no answer to this that won't upset a small, but admittedly important in a close election, constituency.

I don't think we should necessarily be running the numbers on how many votes committing genocide will bring in for a candidate. But if that's how you view it, it's an incredibly unpopular position in the party and among moderates. Why you would want your candidate to choose unpopular positions is beyond me but this is also the party that said Biden was doing great.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Codifying Roe as a law prior to the SCOTUS decision would have weakened abortion rights. It would have gone from a right to a law that the GOP could overturn.

You don't believe this. Obama literally ran on codifying Roe and then changed his mind right after he was elected as to not "inflame division". And if liberals truly thought it was better handled by the courts, why did they scream at everyone on the left who said RBG should retire?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think we should necessarily be running the numbers on how many votes committing genocide will bring in for a candidate. But if that's how you view it, it's an incredibly unpopular position in the party and among moderates. Why you would want your candidate to choose unpopular positions is beyond me but this is also the party that said Biden was doing great.

It seems clear to me Kamala does not agree with Biden's handling of the situation and would like it to stop. Now whether she can do that, idk but its contrast to trump who ppenly says he wants israel to wipe them out.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You don't believe this. Obama literally ran on codifying Roe and then changed his mind right after he was elected as to not "inflame division". And if liberals truly thought it was better handled by the courts, why did they scream at everyone on the left who said RBG should retire?

It was a mistake to re-engage with you.

Bye.

[RainMaker]

Sorry but you're arguing that the Democrats didn't make it a law because they trusted the courts to keep it a right despite decades of efforts to overturn it. There is a reason no one has made that excuse before. Just do what Obama did and say it wasn't a priority.

[Atocep]

Dems never had the votes in Senate. Getting the ACA passed took a massive amount of work and there was more support in the Senate among dems for that than abortion at the time.

Dems deserve some blame for failures here but I'd put it more on anti-abortion Senators and RBG than Obama.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I don't mean she knew she won the election, I mean she knew he fell for her traps before he knew he was being trapped.

Yeah, I got your point and agree that the debate itself doesn't really change much and certainly didn't mean Harris is now the runaway favorite. I still see it as 50/50, so while she handled him like no other has, I won't let that make me be over optimistic about November.

[Atocep]

Some more anecdotal evidence from last night. My wife is visiting her grandparents in AZ and they're Trump flag in the front yard MAGA republicans. Her grandpa said after the debate that he has a lot to think about and her grandmother said she can't see herself voting for Trump now.

[sovereignstar v2]

Were her grandparents in a coma the last 8 years?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Were her grandparents in a coma the last 8 years?

Nah just lifetime republicans that live in the Fox News circle. 99% of the bad shit Trump says and does doesn't make it there or isn't discussed with any depth so they're in that group that's just oblivious to a lot of the shit he's done. It sounds like last night was a "holy shit this is bad" moment for them.

I'd be surprised if her grandpa doesn't fall back into voting for Trump, but my guess is grandma goes 3rd party. Grandpa is a vet, though, and my wife did kind of hammer him on J6, Arlington, threatening to deploy troops against US citizens, and other stuff and she said he was quiet for quite some time after that.

[stevew]

Classic gaslighting

[larrymcg421]

I love the idea that codifying Roe would've solved everything as if SCOTUS wouldn't have overturned the law that codified it.

[Vegas Vic]

In this alternate reality we find ourselves in, which last week had former Vice President Dick Cheney endorse Kamala Harris, we now have this from Republican strategist Karl Rove:

“But there’s no putting lipstick on this pig. Mr. Trump was crushed by a woman he previously dismissed as ‘dumb as a rock’. Which raises the question: What does that make him?”

Republican Karl Rove says Trump got ‘crushed by a woman he called dumb as a rock’ during ‘train wreck’ debate

[Front Office Midget]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This isn't true at all. We know most, almost all, of the party is going to vote for Harris regardless of her stance on Gaza. How much of the electorate will she lose? One percent? Less? Two percent? I hope we can agree that she isn't losing huge amounts of votes from people who would otherwise support her.

Dead Prez is saying not to vote for Kamala because of Gaza.

A professor I know basically saying the same thing.

I probably have more friends who have said they won't vote to support a genocide, than have said they will vote for Kamala.

My circle is pretty far left though, don't know how representative it is of the electorate at large.

Based on 2016 and 2000, I wouldn't be surprised if there are enough folks like that to lose. We'll see.

[albionmoonlight]

As a Democrat, I enjoyed yesterday. Today, back to the reality of the fact that this will still be a very close election decided by less than 100,000 voters concentrated in swing states.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And for the love of God can this country take it easy on the Haitians for once. They've been the go-to for KKK propaganda for decades and we just screw them over in Haiti and when they come here for a better life. I know it goes back hundreds of years but it'd be nice to go a few decades where we don't just make their lives hell.

It is really sad what the Haitians have had to go through. Terrible leadership with the US to blame, and then horrific natural disasters. They are a group of people that really deserve a break.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Front Office Midget

Dead Prez is saying not to vote for Kamala because of Gaza.

A professor I know basically saying the same thing.

I probably have more friends who have said they won't vote to support a genocide, than have said they will vote for Kamala.

My circle is pretty far left though, don't know how representative it is of the electorate at large.

Based on 2016 and 2000, I wouldn't be surprised if there are enough folks like that to lose. We'll see.

From what I saw of my circle of online people, a large number that had been against voting for Biden because of Gaza flipped once Harris became the candidate. Several have become pretty strong proponents of Harris, running fundraisers and volunteering. Only a couple have continued to withhold support, and even they are not nearly as vocal post-Biden.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I love the idea that codifying Roe would've solved everything as if SCOTUS wouldn't have overturned the law that codified it.

Making abortion rights a law would have forced a crisis during the Trump admin. They would have overturned the law or just decided to stop enforcing it. It would have gone to the courts and maybe abortion rights win maybe they don't.

There's no one simple trick to make it impossible for the GOP to take your rights away.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Front Office Midget

Dead Prez is saying not to vote for Kamala because of Gaza.

A professor I know basically saying the same thing.

I probably have more friends who have said they won't vote to support a genocide, than have said they will vote for Kamala.

My circle is pretty far left though, don't know how representative it is of the electorate at large.

Based on 2016 and 2000, I wouldn't be surprised if there are enough folks like that to lose. We'll see.

If that is the case I'll just have to look at the bright side.

I'm not a woman. LGBTQ, or a minority. I am retired with a decent low middle class life style retirement account. With Trump running things money won't be spent on environment, energy prices will be low. By the time the climate truly goes to hell I'll be in the ground. He'll give tax cuts worth millions a year to his class, but I'll at least get some crumbs, ie an extra $20 a week to spend on me. And I'll get all of these benefits even though I voted for Harris.

Life for me under Trump isn't going to be all that bad. All I really have to do is turn off the news, stop reading threads like this one, and no longer tell friends, family, and folks I know, how terrible Trump is. I'm too old to continue wasting my time on that. Since I live in a Trump state I won't have to worry about federal money being cut off, we'll always be taken care of. I'll feel empathy for many groups that will suffer, but I won't feel any guilt after spending 8 years trying to get rid of the Orange asshole. I've done all I can do.

Good luck to your friends on the far left if Harris loses.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The PredictIt markets flipped right after he yelled the thing about dogs.

PredictIT is a single market. A better indicator is electionbettingodds.com, which is a compilation of the various betting markets. They update the odds every minute. She's up 51.6% to 47.2% right now in the betting markets.

https://electionbettingodds.com/

[Atocep]

My wife has a coworker that's Korean and named her dog Dinner because she got tired of the jokes about eating pets when she first moved to America. They're all remote workers so I told my wife that for the good of thr country she needs to investigate whether or not she's actually Haitan.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Good luck to your friends on the far left if Harris loses.

People keep acting like her support for genocide is normal and popular. It's not. Most of this country wants it to end and the overwhelming majority of Democrats and Independents want it to end.

Harris is the extremist in her own party on this issue. Not surprising from a party celebrating endorsements from Dick Cheney.

[GrantDawg]

Trump announced today he is launching his own crypto. So if haven't already lost your life savings on his media group, here is your opportunity to lose the rest.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

People keep acting like her support for genocide is normal and popular. It's not. Most of this country wants it to end and the overwhelming majority of Democrats and Independents want it to end.

Harris is the extremist in her own party on this issue. Not surprising from a party celebrating endorsements from Dick Cheney.

You keep repeating that line. She is not the president. Have you never worked in place with a hierarchical structure? Im not in politics but ive worked in many schools with a principal and assistant principal and while the AP often works harder and longer, the principal has say over things and makes all the relevant decisions. And frankly I think Biden listens to many others ahead of her anyway.

Or are you of the opinon that every single democrat politician loves genocide and should never be voted for the rest of their lives?

[Lathum]

Apparently Springfield town hall had to be evacuated after several bomb threats. Good old loving maga.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Danny

Or are you of the opinon that every single democrat politician loves genocide and should never be voted for the rest of their lives?

Everyone on this board loves genocide as well, by simply suggesting the issue is more complicated than some make it out to be. It doesn't matter what your stance is, if it's not the exact same as RM's then you're pro genocide.

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Trump announced today he is launching his own crypto. So if haven't already lost your life savings on his media group, here is your opportunity to lose the rest.

maybe Logan Paul will let me trade my crypto zoo tokens for this

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Everyone on this board loves genocide as well, by simply suggesting the issue is more complicated than some make it out to be. It doesn't matter what your stance is, if it's not the exact same as RM's then you're pro genocide.

and don't you dare ever suggest the alternative would be worse for the people of Gaza.

[cuervo72]

The GOP VP candidate just vamping about how we are in a new civil war against the Yankees like he’s an Auburn freshman after a 3am bong rip at a frat houses Robert E Lee Day party. Wild. https://t.co/RE4qY14y1G pic.twitter.com/8lbQZPMrY3

— Tim Miller (@Timodc) September 12, 2024

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

You keep repeating that line. She is not the president. Have you never worked in place with a hierarchical structure? Im not in politics but ive worked in many schools with a principal and assistant principal and while the AP often works harder and longer, the principal has say over things and makes all the relevant decisions. And frankly I think Biden listens to many others ahead of her anyway.

Or are you of the opinon that every single democrat politician loves genocide and should never be voted for the rest of their lives?

All she has to say is she will no longer send arms to Israel to continue their genocide. I don't expect her to stop it now while she is not President. But she can say she will stop it when elected. It would be a huge political win.

I don't know what every Democrat believes but I personally will never vote for anyone who supports and funds genocide. The Overton Window has shifted so much with this "lesser of two evils" strategy that the Democrats are hailing support of Dick Cheney as a feather in their cap.

Originally Posted by Atocep

Everyone on this board loves genocide as well, by simply suggesting the issue is more complicated than some make it out to be. It doesn't matter what your stance is, if it's not the exact same as RM's then you're pro genocide.

It's complicated to you and some others because you don't view those being killed as people. Just like during the Iraq and Afghanistan war that many liberals supported.

[RainMaker]

Trump just put out a message that he will not take part in another debate. Odd strategy to leave voters with the image of you getting dogwalked on a stage for 2 hours by your opponent.

Has anyone been following this Laura Loomer stuff too? I guess I'd say I'm shocked she's so close to Trump but they seem to be going full 4chan for this election.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

All she has to say is she will no longer send arms to Israel to continue their genocide. I don't expect her to stop it now while she is not President. But she can say she will stop it when elected. It would be a huge political win.

I don't know what every Democrat believes but I personally will never vote for anyone who supports and funds genocide. The Overton Window has shifted so much with this "lesser of two evils" strategy that the Democrats are hailing support of Dick Cheney as a feather in their cap.



It's complicated to you and some others because you don't view those being killed as people. Just like during the Iraq and Afghanistan war that many liberals supported.

It's complicated because our government has a responsibility to keep our citizens safe, first and foremost. Israel is an ally that that has arguably the best intelligence service in the world and supplies us with research and technology. They were a critical ally during the Cold War and they're our top check on Iran. There's a lot to consider when it comes to providing anything other than assistance.

And you have no idea how I see anything. To claim otherwise is the same bigoted bullshit you see coming from the right on a daily basis. One could easily claim you must be a supporter of genocide and the outrage you have toward Gaza is fake because you don't show the same support for Yemen, where far more people have died in a war that's been going on for far longer.

Spare me the moral outrage until you're consistent with it.

[RainMaker]

I have repeatedly said we should not be involved in Yemen and should not be selling weapons to Saudi Arabia.

And the "keep our citizens safe" is utter bullshit. Israel has executed a number of American citizens (and our allies) of late and they have been ignored by our government. They just shot an American citizen in the head the other day. The administration will do nothing about it because Israel is valued more than American citizens.

And the "best intelligence service" in the world didn't foresee an attack on October 7th by the most surveilled people in the world locked in a concentration camp they control. The same intelligence service that told us that Saddam had WMDs. Something that led to the deaths of thousands of Americans and a million innocent civilians. They're an "ally" because it makes evangelicals, neocons, and bigots happy. In 10 years you'll pretend you never supported them.

[flere-imsaho]

What are you doing to stop the genocide in Gaza, RM, besides a) posting here, b) saying you'll vote for a third party and c) relentless criticizing the candidates running against the guy who, of all the candidates, is the biggest supporter of Bibi?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have repeatedly said we should not be involved in Yemen and should not be selling weapons to Saudi Arabia.

And the "keep our citizens safe" is utter bullshit. Israel has executed a number of American citizens (and our allies) of late and they have been ignored by our government. They just shot an American citizen in the head the other day. The administration will do nothing about it because Israel is valued more than American citizens.

And the "best intelligence service" in the world didn't foresee an attack on October 7th by the most surveilled people in the world locked in a concentration camp they control. The same intelligence service that told us that Saddam had WMDs. Something that led to the deaths of thousands of Americans and a million innocent civilians. They're an "ally" because it makes evangelicals, neocons, and bigots happy. In 10 years you'll pretend you never supported them.

So what's your solution to the gaza situation?

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

All she has to say is she will no longer send arms to Israel to continue their genocide. I don't expect her to stop it now while she is not President. But she can say she will stop it when elected. It would be a huge political win.

I don't know what every Democrat believes but I personally will never vote for anyone who supports and funds genocide. The Overton Window has shifted so much with this "lesser of two evils" strategy that the Democrats are hailing support of Dick Cheney as a feather in their cap.



It's complicated to you and some others because you don't view those being killed as people. Just like during the Iraq and Afghanistan war that many liberals supported.

I think we all hear that you believe the Democrats are supporting genocide and you will never support a candidate that votes for genocide. You have said it on just about every page of this thread over the past 5 or 6 months. We all know where you stand.

I've generally agreed with you about a lot of things over the years, enjoyed your posts, and hate to see you spiraling like this, but you are really getting out of line in lumping everyone that has a different worldview than you into one big pile of people that love genocide and the politicians that support them. You aren't changing anyone here's opinions of the issue, but you are making it seem like your view is the only view and making people lose respect and tolerance for you.

Without trying to be rude and appreciating that you have been going through some really tough personal stuff, I would love to see you acknowledge that your point has been made very clearly, accept that other folks hear you and that their views do not completely overlap with you, and get back to talking about things that we all really value from you (for me, I think of you as really knowledge in business owning, small business, and lots of sports and political views and have always enjoyed reading your posts). You have been on this board for a long time and had, in my opinion, a really good reputation, but you are turning into a caricature of yourself with how dead set you have been on making your point. You can stand by your principles and you can think less of others that do not share them to the exact minutiae, but I really hope you will consider easing up on the topic a little bit. We all get it and hear you.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

What are you doing to stop the genocide in Gaza, RM, besides a) posting here, b) saying you'll vote for a third party and c) relentless criticizing the candidates running against the guy who, of all the candidates, is the biggest supporter of Bibi?

Same guy who asked me why I wasn’t flying to Ukraine to pitch in on the front lines, fwiw.

[RainMaker]

Swaggs - I understand what you're saying but we aren't talking about student loan repayment or an infrastructure bill here. I view funding this genocide as one of the most despicable acts of foreign policy in this country's history. I don't really know how you're supposed to act. If we were funding the Nazis in the 40's, I would hope people would speak up instead of saying "well the other candidate would gas them harder".

And as someone who would like to see a stronger left, I think their stance is going to hurt the party dramatically and cost them elections. Not just now, but in the future as younger people don't support this. The numbers are overwhelmingly against it. If you truly believe that fascism is on the rise and this country is at risk from MAGA, you should be irate about their stance on this.

I guess I'm upset that people here who at one point stood up against bigotry and violence under Trump would support it now because it's a Democrat in charge. But partisan politics can change people's stances quickly.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So what's your solution to the gaza situation?

Stop sending weapons and aid to Israel as long as they continue to commit genocide and other atrocities. They will stop. Reagan and Bush did it.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Same guy who asked me why I wasn’t flying to Ukraine to pitch in on the front lines, fwiw.

Sorry, but I find it cowardly to force people to fight a war for you. Ukraine has forced conscription.

[JPhillips]

This Trump/Laura Loomer stuff is weird as shit.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This Trump/Laura Loomer stuff is weird as shit.

Taking her to the 9/11 memorial was a disgrace. The fact that a party nominee for President is traveling with and taking advice from someone spouting off blatant racist bullshit about his opponent is insane, but that's where we are with Trump.

I can't wait to hear from my wife's stepfather on how divisive Obama was and how democrats are the extremists some more.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Reagan and Bush did it.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Democrats are hailing support of Dick Cheney as a feather in their cap.

Posted without a hint of irony.

Also, Reagan and Bush didn't stop sending anything. They delayed
a couple of shipments and a loan by a month or two. Biden also, similarly, paused a shipment of bombs. There was also no political blowback at the time because in the early 80s and early 90s no one in the US cared about the middle east or gave it much thought. Senate didn't care, the House didn't care, and the general public certainly didn't care then.

This is just more of your politics and diplomacy is as easy as 1, 2, 3 stuff.

[Drake]

One of my cousins just posted this on Facebook, and I have to admit, it's kind of funny.

Before you let Taylor Swift influence your vote, may I just remind you that 90% of her hit songs are about choosing the wrong person.