Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Maple Leafs]

Those duelling "Let's Go Cena / Cena Sucks" chants are going to be awkward coming from a jury box.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well it may not be a hit movie but TNA has managed to get a little success in another media.

Debuting on this week's Rock radio chart, at #47 is "Longnecks & Rednecks" by Serg Salinas. That's James Storm's new theme music.

The artist btw, better known to wrestling fans as Mr. Dixie Carter. The video features country stars Montgomery Gentry (as well as Big & Rich running buddy Cowboy Troy) but they're only acting, not singing.

It's probably worth noting how little it takes to break into the Rock (as opposed to Active Rock) chart these days ... the song garned 3 spins on a reporting station last week, most likely coming from a station that airs syndicated John Boy & Billy as their morning show. (same thing has happened a few times with novelty songs featured on Bob & Tom)

Video embedded in the tag so as not to hang/slow the thread

Spoiler

[Mota]

Good news:
Daniel Bryan has really elevated himself over the past few months. He's getting huge reactions out of both the casuals and the hardcore. It's great to see, since he's also a great worker and a great talker. Those of us who've followed him over the years knew that he was the real thing. I view him as this era's Bret Hart (minus the family legacy).

Also been some great matches in wrestling in the past few months.

Bad news has been the storytelling. John Cena has simply been a repulsive character. The Brock Lesnar storyline has been a disaster. But what a great match between them. They've totally sucked all the wind out of that sail though.

I'm really looking forward to watching the Davey Richards / Michael Elgin match which supposedly is the strongest match of the year to date. I've seen Elgin at shows with 50 people, it's nice to see him moving up in the wrestling world.

I'm quite a bit behind on my TNA viewing but I've also heard they've been doing some good stuff with a lot of the characters even though the show as a whole still has some flaws. Austin Aries really is great, Bully Ray has been a fantastic heel. I haven't seen enough of Bobby Roode to comment on how he's been doing as champ.

[molson]

3 hours for every RAW is bad news, though it will net them something like $30 million the first year. It will be tough to fill the time though. I was hoping someday they'd get past the idea that every guy has to be on every single RAW, but now there's no chance of that at all. So many guys are ridiculously overexposed, the shelf life on wrestlers and angles is minuscule. Send Cena on tour for a year around the world, have him headline shows in every corner of the globe, it'll make money, you'll promote the brand and when he comes back, he'll be much more fresh.

Plenty of good news too. I can't believe so many people just take these Bryan/Punk WWE matches and characters for granted, it's still insane to me they're getting all this time on TV and PPV. But I think fans are already getting a little tired of Punk, which is going to happen when a guy's on TV 8 times a month so matter how good he is or how he's booked.

[molson]

I always like reading about the WWE shows overseas, like how the fans go apeshit in Dubai, etc, and then sometimes you have a little "cultural misunderstanding" like this (from TMZ):

A WWE event in Brazil came to a screeching halt Thursday evening ... when local law enforcement stopped a live match and threatened to arrest Chris Jericho for desecrating the Brazilian flag.

It all went down during a match between Jericho and C.M. Punk -- who was proudly waving the flag in the ring. Jericho took the flag away, crumpled it up and kicked the flag out of the ring ... and that's when police stepped in and put a stop to the event.

We're told Jericho was informed that desecrating the national flag is a crime in Brazil ... punishable by incarceration.

Cops gave Jericho an option -- apologize to the arena ... or go to jail. Chris chose the former ... grabbing the mic and telling the crowd he immediately regretted his actions. Cops allowed the event to continue.

Sources connected to the WWE tell TMZ ... the flag stunt was NOT planned or approved by WWE officials.

The WWE has just released an official statement saying, "Chris Jericho has been suspended indefinitely due to an irresponsible act of denigrating the Brazilian flag at a WWE event in Sao Paulo on May 24. The WWE has apologized to the citizens and the government of Brazil for this incident."

[Mota]

More weird stuff going on.

Randy Orton suspended for 60 days for his 2nd drug failure. How long has the WWE known about this, because they've had Orton in nowhere land for months now. Considering he's supposed to be their #2 star, he hasn't done anything worth talking about in AGES. Boring interviews, boring matches and boring feuds. This guy is way better than that. He'll have 60 days to refocus.

2.7 rating for Raw this week. That's a horrible rating.

Really, I think it shows that the WWE needs to try something different. As much as he's the biggest star in the company, John Cena can't main event every PPV. Even if you're a top draw, you can exhaust your benefit to a company. I always compare it to UFC, if they had GSP on every PPV, he wouldn't be able to draw 800K - 1M on every match.

Also, Kane needs to retire, or to be retired. Miz needs to go away for a long time.

Now take Dolph Ziggler and make him a main eventer. The roster has never been so thin, and he's ready. It's time.

I love the cover for the WWE 13 game. WIth emphasis on the Attitude era, it might sell better than the past few versions.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Mota

More weird stuff going on.

Randy Orton suspended for 60 days for his 2nd drug failure. How long has the WWE known about this, because they've had Orton in nowhere land for months now. Considering he's supposed to be their #2 star, he hasn't done anything worth talking about in AGES. Boring interviews, boring matches and boring feuds.

hes been boring for as long as i can remember. his "viper" gimmick is boring

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by molson

The WWE has just released an official statement saying, "Chris Jericho has been suspended indefinitely due to an irresponsible act of denigrating the Brazilian flag at a WWE event in Sao Paulo on May 24. The WWE has apologized to the citizens and the government of Brazil for this incident."

The company shows its true colors by not even pretending to back up its employees. I think that the whole independent contractor/wrestler is a sham. It's just a front to keep from paying for a lot of stuff that they would normally have to pay employees. The company could have at least said that they were sorry, and that it wasn't intentional, and that Jericho did the right thing by apologizing. Instead they back away and leave him to twist in the wind, then suspend him to boot.

[molson]

Orton's a great talent, maybe the best all-around wrestler in the company (and the world). If he was wrestling in Japan or on the indys everyone would talk about how great he was. But we've seen him maybe 10 million times more than we ever saw, say, Bob Orton. Almost every week on national TV for almost 10 years, almost never in squash matches - Bob Orton would have had to be around for 100 years to get that much exposure the way they used to do things. Same with Cena. It's just too much. I think they should both be 2 of the top 3 or 4 guys, because they're so good, they just don't need to wrestle or even on be on TV every week. I think they have more than enough "stars". You don't need to push every 25 year-old guy with a pulse to the top right away. Everybody just needs to be on TV less often. Cena and Orton are just entering their wrestling primes now and we've already seen them do everything.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Now take Dolph Ziggler and make him a main eventer. The roster has never been so thin, and he's ready. It's time.

He was going to take Jericho's place in the Orton feud. Nothing for him really to do now, they'll probably keep him in that tag team a little longer.

[RainMaker]

I would say that hurts, but they haven't used Orton much. And it seems like the suspension of Jericho was going to put him in a holding pattern again. Miz was supposed to replace Jericho in that feud and they've had Miz jobbing every week for months. If anything maybe the 2 months will allow them to come up with something fresh for Orton.

I think one of their problems with guys like Orton and Punk who played the antihero so well is that they turn them babyface once the crowd is on their side. They forget what made them such a hot commodity. The crowd was into them for the anti-establishment thing, they don't want to see them kissing babies and smiling incessantly.

Daniel Bryan seems like a guy they could really showcase more. The crowd is absolutely into him whether you make him a face or a heel. Every heel plays arrogant and it looks the same, but somehow he's able to make that arrogant heel thing look new. Just a subtle trolling with all his mannerisms. Loved his match with Sheamus a couple months ago and how he played it out.

They blew their chance with Ziggler. Miz is dead. Not sure who else they can elevate to main event status these days.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

He was going to take Jericho's place in the Orton feud. Nothing for him really to do now, they'll probably keep him in that tag team a little longer.

I thought it was Miz who was going to replace him?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I thought it was Miz who was going to replace him?

Miz is being written off to film the Marine 3. It's possible he was going to squashed by Orton first, but he's supposed to be gone any week now. I think it was Meltzer that reported that Ziggler was going to take Jericho's place (Ziggler/Swagger teased a breakup on Monday).

[molson]

Did anybody see thing post from an alleged former WWE creative team member that was floating around? I don't know if this link is the original source, but it has the whole thing. I'm not 100% sure it's legit, but it's very detailed and it's a fun read, the IWC seems to be going with it, and a couple of big names have vouched for it as being accurate. I think my favorite thing in it is the rejected storyline of Alex Riley faking cancer to get sympathy from the fans. I can totally see him doing that.

WWE Creative Team: An Insightful Look at the Creative Process Within WWE

and part 2:

http://www.rspwfaq.net/2012/05/behin...part-deux.html

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting read, thanks for the linkage Molson.

The bit in the first part about how often stuff is used that's a rib on someone rings pretty true to me. That was said frequently about some of the things the Abyss character does/did being elements taken from Chris Parks' personality and I know that it's not uncommon in the indies, so it seems like a wrestling thing rather than a WWE thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Guy takes a lot of heat (and there's probably more coming his way with the divorce stuff) but this is a lot of good he's done & that's worth a nod.

WWE's John Cena grants 300th Wish - Entertainment, Pop Culture, Style and Hot Trends - Trending Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

[RainMaker]

Yeah, I don't think anyone denies he's a great guy. He also should be the face of the company. His character is just poorly written and he unfortunately has to take the blame for that.

For the crap WWE gets for their image and such, they do a lot of good that you don't see from other companies. The Make-a-Wish stuff has always been great and they are one of the only outfits that was actually making the trip overseas and into military zones to put on shows for the troops.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, I don't think anyone denies he's a great guy.

Other than perhaps his ex, Mickie James, Randy Orton and Ken Doane

[Mota]

Great interview with Matt Hardy on the Wrestling Observer yesterday. This guy finally seems to have identified that there's something wrong with him and has been trying to fix it. He said he's happy working a few times a week, letting his body recover, and not needing to go into that cycle of doom that he was in back in the WWE days. I haven't heard him this lucid in years. Good luck to Matt and I hope that he can keep on the right track.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Other than perhaps his ex, Mickie James, Randy Orton and Ken Doane

I wonder if that angle where he kissed Eve a few months ago is a reflection of reality? And then one of the wrestlers had to point out that he was married.

Looking back at all this chaos, seems weird that it was placed on there, probably when it was all coming down before we knew about it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Magazine - Wrestlemaniac - The Atlantic

The story (and the result) of an interview with Abdullah the Butcher.

[RainMaker]

Disappointed that they are making the Raw MitB Cena, Show, Kane, and Jericho. None of them can really take advantage of the setup and give some big spots. MitB also seemed to be a great showcase for up and coming talent. And at worst a match with some big spots showing off the more athletic part of the roster.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Magazine - Wrestlemaniac - The Atlantic The story (and the result) of an interview with Abdullah the Butcher.

Never a dull moment with Abby around I suspect.

Has he got Hep? Beats the hell outta me, I figure he's the only person who (maybe) knows for sure. But I hope he's clean, too important a showman for me not to wish that he's just a beautiful bit of kayfabe.

[RainMaker]

Never thought I'd say this, but TNA has been sort of good lately. Outside of the hilariously bad AJ-Dixie storyline of course. Roode has been a surprisingly great champion.

[Toddzilla]

Nice surprise seeing Kenny King last night - ROH wasn't happy about it, though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Nice surprise seeing Kenny King last night - ROH wasn't happy about it, though.

No they weren't.

Then again, considering the circumstances (according to their version of the story at least) I can't say that I blame them much.

[Mota]

On that note, the 1000th episode of Raw is over. What were your thoughts?

[Matthean]

The AJ thing continues to make no sense.

[RainMaker]

Turned the wrong guy heel.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Turned the wrong guy heel.

Yeah, but I don't think it was scripted. I think they went with the tweets of who the fans wanted to fight the Rock. CM "won" that contest so he turned heel. It could have gone Cena or the Show......

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Matthean

The AJ thing continues to make no sense.

The final payoff of the CM Punk / Kane / Daniel Bryan story with AJ is that she becomes GM? To me that's the equivalent of "Hornswoggle was the Anonymous GM" in terms of payoff quality.

And if you were the chairman of a large corporation, wouldn't she be the last person on the entire roster that you would put in charge of a highly rated TV show?

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Turned the wrong guy heel.

We're watching the wrong show if we're expecting John Cena to turn at this point.

But at least the hardcores had an alternative to cheer for in CM Punk. Who are they going to cheer for now? Or are they just going to continue cheering for Punk and make it hard on the WWE?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mota

The final payoff of the CM Punk / Kane / Daniel Bryan story with AJ is that she becomes GM? To me that's the equivalent of "Hornswoggle was the Anonymous GM" in terms of payoff quality.

They haven't been able to produce a good payoff in some time. Punk/Nash/Laurinitis angle, Nexus, Lesnar/Cena, and so on. Do a decent job of getting people into angles, but then go down in flames.

I know they'll never turn Cena or tweak his character. Just saying if they are looking for a way to liven up the show now that it's going to be 3 hours, that would be the way to do it. Punk has swerved so many times that it doesn't really matter. He's like Jericho in that respect. I don't watch every week but do fast forward through the occasional Raw. No idea how they are going to make 3 hours interesting when they can't make 2.

I did like the show last night. Some good nostalgia. The AJ bit was dumb and the ending didn't make a lot of sense either. Thought the HHH/Lesnar storyline would be better if Lesnar was treated as a credible threat. Probably should have had him pummel HHH again and leave Stephanie crying and wondering what she had just done. I really don't have much interest in the angle though. Think they should be using Lesnar to push active talents (sort of like how they would use Foley in the past).

Speaking of Foley, he has definitely put on the pounds. Was good seeing Bradshaw and Simmons together and Slater really sold that clothesline.

[RainMaker]

I also think they'll cheer for Punk still. WWE does a decent job of ignoring the fan reactions and or lying about them. They were pumping in a ton of crowd noise for the taped Smackdowns to temper the cheers for Bryan awhile back.

[Matthean]

Undertaker was nice seeing return, but it felt like there wasn't anything there once he appeared. After he and Kane did their movies, you can tell they are literally just standing around waiting for something that never seems to happen.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

Yeah, but I don't think it was scripted. I think they went with the tweets of who the fans wanted to fight the Rock. CM "won" that contest so he turned heel. It could have gone Cena or the Show......

This goes alongwith something McMahon said in and earlier interview or something where he said they wanted to use social media to help influence storylines. I guess that works in terms of giving people what they want but it really sucks in terms of givign awaywhat is about to happen. As soon as I saw Punk won the vote I knew Cena was going to lose.

However, they did a nice job with the turn - or should I say Punk made the most out of what they gave him.

[molson]

Ya, that was a really well crafted turn, and they planted the seeds the last few weeks, I'm sure next week he'll do his "I don't main event PPVs even though I'm the champion" speech.

And heel/face divide obviously isn't as rigid and important as it used to be, Rock/Punk will flow a little better with Punk playing a heel, but he'll be cheered plenty too and that's fine. Heels on TV are almost always faces with the internet fans anyway.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Speaking of Foley, he has definitely put on the pounds. Was good seeing Bradshaw and Simmons together and Slater really sold that clothesline.

I KNOW! Slater took that clothesline into a headstand or something like that. It was insane. Everybody nearly cracked up watching it.

[molson]

Wrestling is such a sleazy business. Two big examples of that going on in the last week or two.

Dawn Marie has this "charity" that she alleges supports older wrestlers with their medical bills, but it's been quite clear for years it's a total scam. They've run benefit shows for Steve Williams, Jerry Lynn, and some other guys who have never seen a penny. Instead, they'll find some sick kid in England or Germany who's a wrestling fan, and blow the whole budget on visiting them to "raise their spirits" (and get a free vacation). More recently, they and some New England indy promotion took some donations and ran some shows to support Kamala, who has lost both of his legs to diabetes. Kamala posted a youtube video saying he hasn't seen a cent. Dawn Marie's charity and the New England indy respond, insulting Kamala, blaming his lifestyle for his health problems, and claiming payments were sent via postal mail, through some intermediary, but the evidence they post of this seems suspect. Especially considering Dawn Marie's right-hand-lady just exudes total scam artist. She posts clearly photo-shopped photos of herself with celebrities and passes them as real on twitter. Rob Feinstein, of all people, comes forward with Kamala's legit email address so that people can donate directly to him - so at the end of the day, the voice of reason and sanity in all this is a guy who was caught by pervertedjustice.com trying to screw someone he thought was an underage boy.

And then there's Davey Richards, indy wrestler extrodinare and former ROH champion, who I don't really follow, but I guess he's some kind of big deal. He shows up with another wrestler for a show in Iowa. They're booked and advertised for singles matches, but they're tired, so they demand the promoter change everything and book an 8-man tag instead so they don't have to work as hard. The promoter refuses. There's some negotiation, and eventually Richards settles for a lesser payout for a regular tag team match. He takes the cash, and flees in his car, ripping off the promoter and the fans in attendance. Maybe this is normal low-level wrestling stuff, but I think this guy is supposed to be some kind of big deal. The IWC explodes, and the money eventually gets sent back to the promoter, but ROH de-books Richards and the other guy from upcoming shows.

So there's a lot of douchebags in in wrestling. That shouldn't come as a surprise, but it's still kind of startling to see it all play out. I think the WWE does a decent job in trying to weed out the real criminal element, but the big stars outside of the WWE are entirely willing to destroy their reputations for a quick $350. But still, I think there's a reason they bring in some guys and not others.

The good news - Adam Ryland has announced TEW '13 with a ton of new features. Looking forward to that. That guy is a machine.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by molson

The good news - Adam Ryland has announced TEW '13 with a ton of new features. Looking forward to that. That guy is a machine.

Will you be able to book some assclown taking the cash and no-showing an indie event?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

They've run benefit shows for Steve Williams, Jerry Lynn, and some other guys who have never seen a penny.

Actually, Jerry Lynn has defended DM this week and thanked her for helping.

Jerry Lynn made the following statement regarding Dawn Marie and her Wrestler’s Rescue organization:

“Since a lot of the talk regarding Wrestler’s Rescue has centered around what was done to help me when I injured my back, I felt it necessary to speak out.

Did Wrestler’s Rescue raise any money for me directly? No. However, Dawn Marie put me in touch with Karl Lauer of the Cauliflower Alley Club, which did help me financially on several occasions during the period I was hurt and needed help.

I am deeply thankful to Dawn for making that connection for me and obviously, to the CAC as well as everyone else who supported me in any way during that time period. Thank you.”

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

And then there's Davey Richards, indy wrestler extrodinare and former ROH champion, who I don't really follow, but I guess he's some kind of big deal. He shows up with another wrestler for a show in Iowa.

Just for the indy grognards here at the FOFC, the main other wrestler in question was Tony Kozina (although Kyle O'Reilly and a 4th lesser known cohort were apparently involved as well). Kozina also shot on some teenage trainee earlier in the day as well, reportedly choking him out legit.

The story gets a little more bizarre with both Richards & Kozina (aka "Team Ambition") doing a fair bit of social media without really denying any of the basics of the story. Instead, Kozina has gone the route of "maybe we weren't completely ethical but we felt disrespected so we did what we did"

More on that stuff, plenty of quotes & other accounts from backstage here

The disappearance of Richards from ROH however appears likely to be more connected to some recent shoot comments he made ripping Jim Cornette for being out of touch & basically over the hill. (He vanished from their shows before this weekend's stuff happened)

One other sidebar to the story that caught my eye though, after reading the additional versions of the tale. It sounds as though the $350 wasn't DR's pay, it was the pay for the entire group of four. That has nothing to do with whether what they did was really shitty, but I mention it just to highlight how unimaginably bad the finances are on the indy circuit these days. Kozina is a vet, Richards is a legit indy-level star (almost but not quite indy superstar), and they making maybe $100-$150 a show.

As for whether all of this is normal, certainly not the specifics (this is pretty extreme stuff, which is why it's making news), but I'd say the fact that there was a dispute over pay & some shenanigans (by either wrestler or promoter or both) is fairly common at this level. I've seen wrestlers & promoters have to be separated physically, I've seen legit fights out on at least two occasions over this kind of stuff, I've seen guys leave after an argument only to return at a future show looking for a legit fight. It's a very nasty business with a number of lowlifes on all sides, and the more transient the roster is the worse it is.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Saw this bit floating around one of the millions (and millions) of online "news" sites

Todd Grisham and The Coach hosted ESPNEWS Sportscenter together for the first time together. They started the show off with Grisham saying "Welcome to Sportscenter alongside The Coach I'm....." Coach cut him off "Does it really matter who you are?" Their first story together was about WR Mike Wallace showing up to the Pittsburgh Steelers, They talked about his money showing up. Coach: "His millions.." Grisham: "And millions...." Coach: "And Millions." Later, they joked about who would read one story, then when they did a live cut in to tennis they sarcastically joked about how exciting it was. At the end of the show Coach told a story about two tennis players who are dating eating snow cones, Todd said "Interesting story." Coach: "Well, that's what I get paid for." Grisham posted a picture on Twitter of them together at the desk, noting it was their first time together on TV in five years.

Ex-WWE Writer Rips Stephanie, Gabriel & Kidds ...

[Grover]

Oh hey there, Ring of Honor wrestling.

[Mota]

You mean Ring of Honor still exists?

To be honest if I'm looking for the future of pro wrestling these days, it's Evolve / Dragon Gate USA. That roster is still full of guys that have a ton of charisma and can wrestle. In RoH, they got completely cherry picked and have little left. Their top guys have a big lack of charisma and I don't think their future stars have progressed the way the company would like.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

You mean Ring of Honor still exists?

One of only three companies with a national TV deal. Of course, being owned by a TV station ownership group kinda helps with that.

[RainMaker]

Does anyone watch TNA? It's actually good lately.

[IlliniCub]

Netflix added a lot of classic ECW today, as well as a WWE compilation of falls count anywhere matches

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Does anyone watch TNA? It's actually good lately.

Audience is essentially flat at hell, right around 1.5 million total viewers a week.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by Mota

You mean Ring of Honor still exists?

To be honest if I'm looking for the future of pro wrestling these days, it's Evolve / Dragon Gate USA. That roster is still full of guys that have a ton of charisma and can wrestle. In RoH, they got completely cherry picked and have little left. Their top guys have a big lack of charisma and I don't think their future stars have progressed the way the company would like.

Stumbled upon it on the local CBS affiliate. It runs opposite SNL, apparently.