Discussion on FL "Don't Say Gay" bill

[Flasch186]

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[Lathum]

The hypocrisy with the gop is staggering. Claim to be anti cancel culture. Freaked out about defund the police but want to defund the fbi. Etc.

[whomario]

Also, one parent complaining is apparently sufficient to pull a book off shelves:



https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...275671496.html

If you are wondering, these are pages 12 and 13:

(And no, this wasn't written by Oprah but by Amanda Gorman and the parent in question is of course not just a parent who happened to take umbrage with some books:

A quick look through the social media of Miami parent Daily Salinas who filed the book challenge would show she’s activist w far-right group Moms for Liberty.

But also her support for the Proud Boys + antisemitic “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” conspiracy content. 3/ pic.twitter.com/3etnQlu9Gv

— Miami Against Fascism ��☕️ (@MIAagainstFash) May 23, 2023

(Thread)

[Flasch186]

But her intentions are clearly laid out on the paper itself

Please don’t look into her past or assume anything about her motivations beyond what’s in the paper itself.


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[Lathum]

Florida is a lost cause at this point.

[RainMaker]

A bit old but it's coming out that Josh Hawley of the "protect the kids" crowd has financial ties to a Christian camp that covered up child sexual abuse for years.


Abuse at Kanakuk Christian camp unreported for decades, victims say


https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...suit-camp.html

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

A bit old but it's coming out that Josh Hawley of the "protect the kids" crowd has financial ties to a Christian camp that covered up child sexual abuse for years.


Abuse at Kanakuk Christian camp unreported for decades, victims say


https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...suit-camp.html

The problem is people that call everyone else groomers will continue to support him and anyone else with child sex allegations unless they're a democrat.

They completely tune this shit out.

[miami_fan]

I took my son to the pediatrician to get his athletic physical completed for next school year. Prior to this year, the office would just ask me if there were any changes from the year before, update the changes if there were any, slap a new date on there and print it out for me to sign. Of course this year we have a new form because Florida so I have to fill out a new one. The form is almost exactly the same as last year just arranged differently. The only real change is the box marked "Sex: Male or Female"now says "Sex Assigned at Birth" with a line next to it. Being the smart ass that I am, I looked at him and made a comment like "You guys are taking this god complex too far assigning the sex of kids nowadays." He did not laugh but not because my comment wasn't funny. Evidently, his receptionist was verbally and physically assaulted by a parent who took the receptionist's asking the question in order to fill out the form as an insult.

[Flasch186]

Deleted

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[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I took my son to the pediatrician to get his athletic physical completed for next school year. Prior to this year, the office would just ask me if there were any changes from the year before, update the changes if there were any, slap a new date on there and print it out for me to sign. Of course this year we have a new form because Florida so I have to fill out a new one. The form is almost exactly the same as last year just arranged differently. The only real change is the box marked "Sex: Male or Female"now says "Sex Assigned at Birth" with a line next to it. Being the smart ass that I am, I looked at him and made a comment like "You guys are taking this god complex too far assigning the sex of kids nowadays." He did not laugh but not because my comment wasn't funny. Evidently, his receptionist was verbally and physically assaulted by a parent who took the receptionist's asking the question in order to fill out the form as an insult.

I'm waiting to see if Trump jumps in on the "DeSantis signed a bill to have your child's genitals inspected before they can attend school or participate in sports.".

[cuervo72]

Everything's fine.

https://abc7.com/glendale-protesters...ting/13352652/

[Flasch186]

no no, violence is not escalating like it ALWAYS does:

"The days leading up to the assembly were marred by news that a small Pride flag on the campus was set on fire, further aggravating tensions."

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

no no, violence is not escalating like it ALWAYS does:

"The days leading up to the assembly were marred by news that a small Pride flag on the campus was set on fire, further aggravating tensions."

My understanding is that almost all the anti-LGBTQ protesters were shipped in. And of course once the fighting started, the police were protect them instead of the actual parents of students from the school.

[Flasch186]

shipped 'em in certainly and those parents def. needed protection from the groomers.

[Flasch186]

Groomers

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkaa...gbtq-community


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[Ghost Econ]

I guess we should change the thread to Don't Say Straight

Repeated, targeted harassment against any account will cause the harassing accounts to receive, at minimum, temporary suspensions.

The words “cis” or “cisgender” are considered slurs on this platform.

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) June 21, 2023

[flere-imsaho]

Unfettered free speech sure is confusing.

[Edward64]

Interesting situation & conundrum for Google. Successful corporations should value employee talent regardless of color, gender sexual preference, national origin etc. This includes welcoming diversity.

But inevitably, one group will be offended by another group, and I'm sure it's not easy keeping everyone somewhat happy in this day and age of strong opinions & differing values.

Don't know what the right answer is but whatever it is, the policies should be transparent and consistent (e.g. elaborate Christmas displays? Maybe tree is okay but not a cross, nativity scene etc?)

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/27/goog...-petition.html

Google has distanced itself from a planned drag show after some employees signed a petition opposing the Pride event.

A few hundred employees signed the petition opposing the drag performance, claiming it sexualizes and disrespects Christian co-workers, and accused Google of religious discrimination, according to the petition viewed by CNBC.

The company said the drag performance remains open to the public, but is encouraging employees to attend a social gathering at Google offices instead.

A few hundred employees signed the petition opposing the drag performance, claiming it sexualizes and disrespects Christian co-workers, and accused Google of religious discrimination, according to the petition viewed by CNBC. “Their provocative and inflammatory artistry is considered a direct affront to the religion beliefs and sensitivities of Christians,” the petition stated, referring to the drag performer.

[Lathum]

Christians are really the worst

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Christians are really the worst

Jesus Christ dude, I hope this is a poor attempt at sarcasm.

But hopefully, just dry humor over a Jack & Coke.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Interesting situation & conundrum for Google. Successful corporations should value employee talent regardless of color, gender sexual preference, national origin etc. This includes welcoming diversity.

But inevitably, one group will be offended by another group, and I'm sure it's not easy keeping everyone somewhat happy in this day and age of strong opinions & differing values.

Don't know what the right answer is but whatever it is, the policies should be transparent and consistent (e.g. elaborate Christmas displays? Maybe tree is okay but not a cross, nativity scene etc?)

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/27/goog...-petition.html

I am not sure how this event sexualizes Christians. Is Google forcing Christians to be in drag as well? Do the few hundred who signed the petition speak for all Christians that work at Google? For all the employees?

Based on this case the Google policy does seem clear now. Any event that "is considered a direct affront to a person's religious beliefs and sensitivities of any group of people should be cancelled." The lack of religious beliefs should also be given the same preference as well IMO.

That policy is consistent in not having any event that is considered a direct affront to any group of people. If you allow events that do offend other groups, that has to mean those groups as less valued in your company as this group whose sensitivities have been just been protected, right? Or is it acceptable to hold events that are an affront to those groups and not this particular group? What the hell did Google hold all those other Pride events all month for if this was going to be the end result?

Of course this once again allows both sides to make the proverbial mountain out of a mole hill. We all know what the simple solution is. It is probably one that most people have used and would have used for other events throughout the year that would be a direct affront to their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and sensitivities. Now? Let the petitions reign!

This year, the closing event was a “Pride and Drag Show” featuring popular performer “Peaches Christ,” who was scheduled to perform Tuesday at LGBTQ+ bar Beaux in San Francisco to “wrap up this amazing month,” according to a now-removed internal description of the event viewed by CNBC.

I preface this by saying I don't know if this was a mandatory attendance event. That would be a foolish thing for a company to do and one that I would definitely understand the Christian employees signing a petition to make it optional to attend. Outside of that, this is political theater. Let's be honest. The simple answer is don't go to the event. But now that this has gone on. I have a few questions

Am I supposed to believe that the Christian (their chosen descriptor, not mine) employees who signed that petition were actually going to the LGBTQ+ bar Beaux that was going to be open to employees and the general public in San Francisco for this event in support of PRIDE but the drag performance was such an affront to their religious beliefs and sensitivities they could no longer support it and had to force Google to remove its name from it? They were going to the LGBTQ+ bar in San Francisco and that wasn't an affront for them? They were choosing to be among members of the LGBTQ+ community in the LGBTQ+ bar in San Francisco and that wasn't an affront for them? The drag show was the forbidden line? After a month of Pride events again IN SAN FRANCISCO??!!!!

Well...

An internal team planned the closing drag event “without going through our standard events process,” said spokesperson Chris Pappas in a statement to CNBC. “While the event organizers have shifted the official team event onsite, the performance will go on at the planned venue — and it’s open to the public, so employees can still attend.”

Pappas added, “We’ve long been very proud to celebrate and support the LGBTQ+ community. Our Pride celebrations have regularly featured drag artists for many years, including several this year.”

So all the other drag performances were not a direct affront to the religion beliefs and sensitivities of Christians but this one here was? Curious.

And the end result of all this? The drag show is still going to go on. Employees who want to attend the drag show can still attend and will attend the drag show as opposed to the Christian approved official team event. And about that official team event that was moved onsite to distance itself from the drag show? The one that I assume was approved by the Christian employees because it can not be a direct affront to the religion beliefs and sensitivities of Christians. That one? Yeah sure. I guess employees will go and celebrate PRIDE, if it is HIGHLY suggested they go by the bosses. And if the bosses are taking attendance. One more thing, since it is a team event, we should expect all the Christian employees to be there as well right? I mean they have to come since everything was changed so as to not be a direct affront to the religion beliefs and sensitivities of Christians right?

[Edward64]

Lots of good questions, I assume most of them are rhetorical. The article doesn't provide enough info for me to have a discussion with you on this specific event. I'd want to know what the group found offensive and Google's rationale & policies.

I've tried googling for more details, searched Reddit (used "Google Pride") and haven't found much at all. I am surprised that Reddit did not blow up because of this decision.

If you find more details, provide a link.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Jesus Christ dude, I hope this is a poor attempt at sarcasm.

But hopefully, just dry humor over a Jack & Coke.

No. They are the worst.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

No. They are the worst.

Okay. All 2.5B Christians (approx).

Saved for future reference so there is no "taken out of context" argument.

[Lathum]

Religion in general is pretty horrible. It’s caused more deaths than anything else combined

[Lathum]

Dola- glad you’re saving posts for reference so you can make arguments in the future. Nothing weird or troll like at all.

[Edward64]

Troll like? You gotta be kidding especially when you make an overarching statement condemning Christians (and Religion in general). Look in the mirror.

If I was to make an overarching statement like that for (race), (gender), (sexual preference) etc. I'd be rightly condemned. But here, nada from your bros.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Troll like? You gotta be kidding especially when you make an overarching statement condemning Christians (and Religion in general). Look in the mirror.

If I was to make an overarching statement like that for (race), (gender), (sexual preference) etc. I'd be rightly condemned. But here, nada from your bros.

If you said that white people are a problem and non-whites are at risk constantly as a result, you'd be right. It doesn't mean that all white people are actively a threat, but falling into that argument detracts from the real issues.

If you said that black people are a problem, you're racist as shit.

If you said that men are a problem and women are at risk constantly as a result, you'd be right. Hopefully we are all aware that most women we know have been sexually harrassed or worse and that most women we know have to be constantly aware of their surroundings, where men are around them, whether it's safe to walk to their car after dark, how to hold their keys to try to fight back if attacked on the way to their car. I'm not a threat, you're not a threat, but enough men are that it is a PROBLEM.

If you say that women are a problem, you're sexist as shit.


Apply that to Christianity. Your "not all christians" argument detracts from a very real point that an incredible number of Christians are an active threat to those around them. If nothing else, Roe V Wade? Women are less safe today than a year ago because of Christianity. That doesn't mean any given Christian is an active threat, but the ones supporting this shit, and the ones saying "not all christians" are a problem.


So yea, you made a perfect point, presumably without realizing it. If you're not aware, there are huge portions of social media where people are sharing their process of unlearning the harm of their christian upbringings from parents who thought they had the best of intentions but scarred their children for life, and that's not getting into actively harmful and cult-like behavior in many, many churches.

If you're not part of the problem, great, congrats. But most of our conservative political landscape in the united states that is actively putting lives at risk is being driven by Christianity. A lot of the fascist movement in America is currently being called "Christian Nationalism" by those living in fear of it.

[Radii]

dola, I would think any good Christian would be constantly appalled at what is being done on a daily basis in the name of their God and their Jesus and would be fighting constantly against the Christians doing these horrible things. If your concern is non-christians generalizing instead, fuck you.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Troll like? You gotta be kidding especially when you make an overarching statement condemning Christians (and Religion in general). Look in the mirror.

If I was to make an overarching statement like that for (race), (gender), (sexual preference) etc. I'd be rightly condemned. But here, nada from your bros.

Who exactly was I trolling?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Radii

dola, I would think any good Christian would be constantly appalled at what is being done on a daily basis in the name of their God and their Jesus and would be fighting constantly against the Christians doing these horrible things. If your concern is non-christians generalizing instead, fuck you.

If you have ten people at a table and one is a nazi you have ten Nazis.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

If you said that white people are a problem and non-whites are at risk constantly as a result, you'd be right. It doesn't mean that all white people are actively a threat, but falling into that argument detracts from the real issues.

If you said that black people are a problem, you're racist as shit.

If you said that men are a problem and women are at risk constantly as a result, you'd be right. Hopefully we are all aware that most women we know have been sexually harrassed or worse and that most women we know have to be constantly aware of their surroundings, where men are around them, whether it's safe to walk to their car after dark, how to hold their keys to try to fight back if attacked on the way to their car. I'm not a threat, you're not a threat, but enough men are that it is a PROBLEM.

If you say that women are a problem, you're sexist as shit.

Apply that to Christianity. Your "not all christians" argument detracts from a very real point that an incredible number of Christians are an active threat to those around them.

The not all Christians is because there wasn't any qualifications of any sort made, even after an offer to clarify or restate. If the original statement was "extremist Christians" or "a large number of Evangelicals" etc. that is perfectly acceptable to me. It was the total generalization that I considered wrong.

Let's put it this way - if I said LGBTQ+ are groomers, and you called me out and asked me to clarify, and I restated LGBTQ+ are groomers without any qualifications ... would you not believe I mean to include all/most LGBTQ+?

So when you say it distracts, I agree with you. If you want to talk about a minority subset, then we can have a discussion.

If nothing else, Roe V Wade? Women are less safe today than a year ago because of Christianity. That doesn't mean any given Christian is an active threat, but the ones supporting this shit, and the ones saying "not all christians" are a problem.

So yea, you made a perfect point, presumably without realizing it. If you're not aware, there are huge portions of social media where people are sharing their process of unlearning the harm of their christian upbringings from parents who thought they had the best of intentions but scarred their children for life, and that's not getting into actively harmful and cult-like behavior in many, many churches.

If you're not part of the problem, great, congrats. But most of our conservative political landscape in the united states that is actively putting lives at risk is being driven by Christianity. A lot of the fascist movement in America is currently being called "Christian Nationalism" by those living in fear of it.

From the above paragraphs, I'm believe you are in Lathum's camp of all/most Christians are the worst? Is this correct?

Glad to have a discussion about Christianity/Religion as a whole. If you are blaming a minority subset, no issues. If you are blaming the all/most, then I'd like to understand that before proceeding.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If you have ten people at a table and one is a nazi you have ten Nazis.

If you have ten LGBTQ+ at a table and one is a groomer, you have ten groomers?

Without additional qualifications/context, the generalization doesn't make sense to me.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

dola, I would think any good Christian would be constantly appalled at what is being done on a daily basis in the name of their God and their Jesus and would be fighting constantly against the Christians doing these horrible things. If your concern is non-christians generalizing instead, fuck you.

Nevermind on above post & question then. I believe I understand where you stand under "all/most Christians are the worst".

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If you have ten LGBTQ+ at a table and one is a groomer, you have ten groomers?

Without additional qualifications/context, the generalization doesn't make sense to me.

Not the same. Nice try.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Not the same. Nice try.

Looks like the same to me ... aka poorly worded statement.

[Lathum]

Wait. I do have one friend who is a pretty devout Christian. He’s a pretty good guy. Funny enough his name is Christian.

[Edward64]

Congrats.

There are alot of good Christians out there for sure. I'd say the majority of them are pretty good people.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Let's put it this way - if I said LGBTQ+ are groomers, and you called me out and asked me to clarify, and I restated LGBTQ+ are groomers without any qualifications ... would you not believe I mean to include all/most LGBTQ+?

I would call it out because it's not correct as a minority generalization. It's a false narrative spread by the Christian Right, funnily enough. I have personally learned that the "not all " conversation is just blatantly harmful in almost all cases.

Great evil in the United States is being done in the name of Christianity, great attacks on marginalized Americans. Whether most Christians are actively in agreement or passively/tacitly complicit I really don't care.

If I find out someone is a Christian early in my first conversation with them, I change how I act and how I talk around them, and i will forever keep them at arms length. I will say that with full confidence and comfort. I fully expect many people learn things about me that cause them to do the same. I'm ok with that.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nevermind on above post & question then. I believe I understand where you stand under "all/most Christians are the worst".

Hopefully I answered in my previous post, but this isn't exactly or entirely true, though I'm not interested in fighting the idea very hard, as I really don't care if I'm judged this way and am happy to elaborate on my thoughts and feelings, but not past one or two posts to say "this is what I believe, do with that what you will". There's no convincing or back and forth to have here IMO.

I have always felt it to be critically important to call out the evildoers on "my side" - I have always held that Bill Maher is an awful piece of shit and I fucking hate that he used to be "on my side" of political discourse. That was worse to me than the fact that Rush Limbaugh existed. I have always felt it to be extremely important to call out shitty behavior in people who I feel are representative of my beliefs and to distance myself from them and to try to change those behaviors. That feels more productive to me than trying to change a Trumper's mind. That's folly, they're part of the class struggle and if they'll come along, great, but fuck 'em. But the leftist who is with me on most of my ideas but is Transphobic? Well we have to deal with that aggressively.


So if you call yourself a Christian (generic you, not Edward you), you're against Roe V Wade being overturned, you're against trans genocide and the hate thrown at drag queens and marginalized folks, but you're putting more energy into "not all christians" than working to root out that kind of awful christian in your own circle, then I think you are complicit in allowing those awful things to happen and to be accepted. And I firmly believe that I practice what I preach strongly enough to make that call.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

I would call it out because it's not correct as a minority generalization. It's a false narrative spread by the Christian Right, funnily enough.

Okay, I think this is the crux of my disagreement with you. We'll agree to disagree.

[larrymcg421]

LGBT and grooming have nothing in common. Hatred towards LGBT has a direct connection to the Christian religion.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

LGBT and grooming have nothing in common. Hatred towards LGBT has a direct connection to the Christian religion.

yeah and it's not even PEOPLE they hate. It's "rules" and "directive". They are told by leaders and edicts that "christianity says this is bad" so they take it as writ without thinking about it. Not realizing that half the people that do their hair are LGBTQ

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Radii

I would call it out because it's not correct as a minority generalization. It's a false narrative spread by the Christian Right, funnily enough.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Okay, I think this is the crux of my disagreement with you. We'll agree to disagree.

Wait. Are you really saying that grooming is a correct generalization of LGBT people?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Okay, I think this is the crux of my disagreement with you. We'll agree to disagree.

Wow. That's actually insane. You're aware that religious leaders are the largest section of groomers in the nation, correct? We can TRACK this. Holy shit.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Wait. Are you really saying that grooming is a correct generalization of LGBT people?

Oh sorry. Thank you for the callout and appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

I used the LGBTQ+ & Grooming example as a parallel of "Christians are the worst" and how I didn't feel it was valid to generalize either (1) LGBTQ+ & Grooming in the same way as (2) Christians are the worst.

I believe where I differ from Radii is that he believes all/most Christians are enabling/doing the bad stuff; whereas I believe its a minority.

[Radii]

https://www.tiktok.com/@newgirlny_fl...404394?lang=en

This woman has been diligently tracking "sex crimes against children" since the drag queen bills started making the news.

In 16 weeks of tracking this, 566 total arrests for sex crimes against children:


124 church employees (79 of those pastors)
police officers and teachers appear every single week as well.
2 transgender people
0 drag queens


Who's Making NewsÂ* - Who's Making News For Sex Crimes Against Children

The data they're using to forumlate these numbers are publicly available. How fucking loony do you have to be to actually think it's the LGBTQ community that's harming children. What the actual fuck man. This isn't new.

[Radii]

I'll just point out that this is how Edward trolls us all constantly into discussing off topic things and minutae to the point of losing all sight of everything important and I'm done engaging. I encourage the same from the rest.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'll just point out that this is how Edward trolls us all constantly into discussing off topic things and minutae to the point of losing all sight of everything important and I'm done engaging. I encourage the same from the rest.

When there are over generalization statements, often times you have to get into the details to understand the assumptions, scope of discussion, context etc.

Yes, I would encourage others to not get to respond to my posts if they don't want to get into a discussion. No problem.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Wait. Are you really saying that grooming is a correct generalization of LGBT people?

That’s how I read it.