Werewolf XLVI - Sun And Shadow (Game Thread) - Game Over! Cultists win!

[Barkeep49]

Alan's purposeful misconstruing of Chief's plan seems like the sort of evil undermining he would do. Therfore I'm gonna go ahead and cast my vote in his direction. After this plan period, I might, or might not, be available again later in the day, but it's a baseball game day and that makes my time limited under this time schedule.

Vote Alan T
Punishment

[DaddyTorgo]

have fun at baseball barkeep.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

have fun at baseball barkeep.

I normally do. Thanks for the good wishes.

[ntndeacon]

Well, I will go ahead and cast my vote. I don't have many strong views yetSo I might change this later. but for now.
Vote Kwhit
Vote Punishment

[Joe]

can someone post a new vote tally

[DaddyTorgo]

leaving work in a minute. same type of schedule as last night. not really any great idea of who to vote for yet, although i know who i won't be voting for, and i have that list with me.

adios

[Alan T]

Just got back in, here is current vote talley:

(2) Chief Rum - Lathum (360), Swaggs (379)
(1) Schmidty - Mustang (274)
(1) BrianD - Chief Rum (359)
(2) Kwhit - BrianD (388), Ntndeacon (404)
(2) Alan - Path (398), Barkeep (401)

(9) Punishment - Mustang, Chief Rum, Lathum, Mr. Wednesday, Tyrith, Swaggs, Path, Barkeep, Ntndeacon


I also have two new targets in path and Barkeep now for coming to the defense of someone whom I think is not on our team (Chief) by lying about my encouraging people to not follow Chief's poor plan this morning. Chief has done nothing but throw out bad plays for us and when I called him out on it, he backpedals faster than I've ever seen.

Vote Chief Rum

Very very suspicious of Barkeep and Path to rally to Chief's aide like this. Makes me wonder if they have better communication than we suspected. I also am leaning towards making sure one of this group can't do us any harm tonight either, just not sure which yet.

[KWhit]

Damn. How did I get near the vote lead? As a purely self preservation vote, I'll:

Vote Chief Rum


Vote Punishment

[KWhit]

And FYI, I may not make it back before 7:30, so I'll just have to make a quick statement on my own behalf.

I find it interesting that the 2 guys who voted for me didn't give a reason at all. What's up with that? Come on, guys. If you're going to kill me (errr... cleanse me) at least have a reason.

If anybody cares, last night I searched the ritual room, found an object, then slept in the ritual room.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Very very suspicious of Barkeep and Path to rally to Chief's aide like this. Makes me wonder if they have better communication than we suspected. I also am leaning towards making sure one of this group can't do us any harm tonight either, just not sure which yet.

Whatever. You always attack anyone who votes you. I welcome any of our fellow cultists to investigate me, you will find no shadow here.

[Tyrith]

Runaway prevention, and Alan's little misstep is slightly suspicious. Either Rum or Alan is fine by me, though.

VOTE ALAN T

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

3 different people? must have missed the other 2...regardless, their opinions don't inform my own. the only thing that informs my own is my own knowledge.

Originally Posted by path12

Whatever. You always attack anyone who votes you. I welcome any of our fellow cultists to investigate me, you will find no shadow here.

Well when you use flimsy reasoning like you are doing, of course I will attack back.

Makes perfect sense, instead of voting for someone who wanted to encourage everyone to tell if they had Mundane roles (the perfect targets for the shadows), instead of voting for someone who wanted to lynch good guy volunteers instead of trying to hunt out a shadow, you think its wise to vote the person who brought up what a bad idea those moves would be.

Makes perfect sense to me!

[SnDvls]

VOTE PUNISHMENT

my person vote is still pending.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Runaway prevention, and Alan's little misstep is slightly suspicious. Either Rum or Alan is fine by me, though.

VOTE ALAN T

Yep, always makes sense voting for the person who says point blankly what he did last night in a way thats easily verifiable by the Signifier validating at the least he couldnt have done the conversion last night.

[Mustang]

Seems to be alot of 'I know something but, I'm not going to tell anyone' going on.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well when you use flimsy reasoning like you are doing, of course I will attack back.

Makes perfect sense, instead of voting for someone who wanted to encourage everyone to tell if they had Mundane roles (the perfect targets for the shadows), instead of voting for someone who wanted to lynch good guy volunteers instead of trying to hunt out a shadow, you think its wise to vote the person who brought up what a bad idea those moves would be.

The flimsy reasoning is on your side this time, my friend, and isn't like you.

As I understood Chief's suggestion, he suggested that one of us with one of the magical roles of lesser importance volunteer to be cleansed so that we did not end up voting someone with a crucial role and forcing them to a) reveal or b) lose the benefit of their role.

It was a VOLUNTEER that he asked for. This makes eminent sense for today only -- we have various and sundry of our fellow cultists who are working behind the scenes at night to help find the shadows. It is to our total benefit to allow those people to work without either suspicion coming upon them or without forcing them to acknowledge their importance to point out to the shadows.

Instead you seemed to turn that into an everyday occurance and shot it down, like you have virtually any other idea that has been floated so far this game.......as well as neglecting to send in a night action that would supposedly help us also. You are the one who strikes me as not working for the benefit of good right now, not that suggestion by Chief.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Yep, always makes sense voting for the person who says point blankly what he did last night in a way thats easily verifiable by the Signifier validating at the least he couldnt have done the conversion last night.

Doesn't mean you couldn't have been converted though, does it?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

The flimsy reasoning is on your side this time, my friend, and isn't like you.

As I understood Chief's suggestion, he suggested that one of us with one of the magical roles of lesser importance volunteer to be cleansed so that we did not end up voting someone with a crucial role and forcing them to a) reveal or b) lose the benefit of their role.

It was a VOLUNTEER that he asked for. This makes eminent sense for today only -- we have various and sundry of our fellow cultists who are working behind the scenes at night to help find the shadows. It is to our total benefit to allow those people to work without either suspicion coming upon them or without forcing them to acknowledge their importance to point out to the shadows.

Instead you seemed to turn that into an everyday occurance and shot it down, like you have virtually any other idea that has been floated so far this game.......as well as neglecting to send in a night action that would supposedly help us also. You are the one who strikes me as not working for the benefit of good right now, not that suggestion by Chief.

Either way its still a bad idea to ask for a volunteer good guy to vote for to remove from the game instead of possibly getting a bad guy. We have a system here where if we end up guessing wrong on someone who reveals an important role that we can give them Mercy instead of punishment, and that not only doesnt lynch them but it PROTECTS them from conversion at night as well for that night. That along with the idea of trying to line up targets for the shadows to get by knowing which members have mundane abilities (the perfect targets) , its just way too many harmful ideas that he has floated out there.

If you fail to understand why either of these ideas are bad ideas, then I can't help you out here, and you're better off being cleansed next anyways to make sure we know what side you are really on.

Originally Posted by path12

Doesn't mean you couldn't have been converted though, does it?

Sure, Ive said all day that no one should assume that Im not converted or even one of the original two based on what I did or didnt do last night. However your jumping to protect faulty reasoning and someone who right now smells the most like a wolf, just is setting off all kinds of alarms.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by path12

The flimsy reasoning is on your side this time, my friend, and isn't like you.

As I understood Chief's suggestion, he suggested that one of us with one of the magical roles of lesser importance volunteer to be cleansed so that we did not end up voting someone with a crucial role and forcing them to a) reveal or b) lose the benefit of their role.

It was a VOLUNTEER that he asked for. This makes eminent sense for today only -- we have various and sundry of our fellow cultists who are working behind the scenes at night to help find the shadows. It is to our total benefit to allow those people to work without either suspicion coming upon them or without forcing them to acknowledge their importance to point out to the shadows.

Instead you seemed to turn that into an everyday occurance and shot it down, like you have virtually any other idea that has been floated so far this game.......as well as neglecting to send in a night action that would supposedly help us also. You are the one who strikes me as not working for the benefit of good right now, not that suggestion by Chief.

Alan, this sums up my feelings for agreeing with Chief over you. I think Chief's plan is a good one. You should know my strategy is to form a COT. I think the role reveals helps with this as does his plan. Plans which help us gain a COT are plans I support since they're plans that win.

Out until after deadline.

[Mr. Wednesday]

While I don't have a general problem with the Chief Rum vote (after all, I voted for him yesterday), I remain a little concerned about his likely non-presence near the deadline.

[Barkeep49]

Alan: CR never asked for a good guy with an important role, rather a good guy with an unimportant role to fufill the role. I can't believe you continue to misrepresent what was proposed. I would recommend finding CR's original post and rereading it, rather than just shooting off incorrect facts from your hip.

Out for real now.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

If the punishment vote ends in Mercy, another spell is placed on the player, the Circle of Sleep. This magical cirle will prevent them from taking any night actions that night (including Shadow attempts,) or being targeted by any night actions other than Search, Steal, or Dose.

For anyone having as difficult time as Path in understanding why Chief's idea is bad, here it is again for you. We absolutely have to try for a shadow player every day. Voting for people we assume are good only does three things 1) Confirm they are good (Good for us), 2) Remove their magical role (Bad for us), 3) Bring the shadow one step closer to reaching their goal for victory.

I've pushed the entire game that punishment should be our default vote, however you all are voting punishment waaaaay too early. I've said all along, we should be picking 1-2 people each day whom we think are the most likely shadow players at that point and putting pressure on them with the vote as the threat to speak up more, to find out what they do bring to the table and see if they make any misteps or mistakes. Worst case scenerio, they end up being an important role, we choose to give them mercy, and they are protected from conversion that night, and our other roles who can protect will have to decide when or where to use their role to try to protect them through the remainder of the game.

Instead everyone is just throwing out names for the most part (not even talking about just the votes for me), just throwing out punishment without using it as a tool to try to make an educated decision, and pretty much trying to help the shadow win.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

We have a system here where if we end up guessing wrong on someone who reveals an important role that we can give them Mercy instead of punishment, and that not only doesnt lynch them but it PROTECTS them from conversion at night as well for that night.

We do, eh? You've been arguing against mercy from the very beginning and you see how the votes stand. Don't give me that mercy, you're on record for voting punishment unless someone reveals.

Sure, Ive said all day that no one should assume that Im not converted or even one of the original two based on what I did or didnt do last night. However your jumping to protect faulty reasoning and someone who right now smells the most like a wolf, just is setting off all kinds of alarms.

And you keep attacking anyone who votes for you. I've already welcomed anyone on the side of good to investigate me.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Alan: CR never asked for a good guy with an important role, rather a good guy with an unimportant role to fufill the role. I can't believe you continue to misrepresent what was proposed. I would recommend finding CR's original post and rereading it, rather than just shooting off incorrect facts from your hip.

Out for real now.

What are you talking about? You made no sense yesterday and less sense today. Who cares about important or unimportant role? Who is even arguing that? I say purposely voting a good guy off, important or unimportant role is just dumb and harmful. Its like in any other WW game asking someone to say they are good and volunteer to die. Who would ever try to push such a silly idea?

Stop trying to bring up points that arent even in discussion to try to make people think Im arguing something I'm not. Point blank its simple.. If you knowingly vote for a good guy, then you're just helping the shadow win. I can't believe you are even arguing this.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Instead everyone is just throwing out names for the most part (not even talking about just the votes for me), just throwing out punishment without using it as a tool to try to make an educated decision, and pretty much trying to help the shadow win.

I haven't just thrown out your name, I've been quite clear in my reasoning for voting you, and I see more people agreeing with what I'm saying than what you are. Does that mean they are all bad, also?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

We do, eh? You've been arguing against mercy from the very beginning and you see how the votes stand. Don't give me that mercy, you're on record for voting punishment unless someone reveals.



And you keep attacking anyone who votes for you. I've already welcomed anyone on the side of good to investigate me.

Ok Sherlock, go and see how I handled the vote yesterday with Imthecrew.

Before you start making up stuff about me, maybe have your facts in order.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

I haven't just thrown out your name, I've been quite clear in my reasoning for voting you, and I see more people agreeing with what I'm saying than what you are. Does that mean they are all bad, also?

Im having a real hard time believing someone would argue what you are arguing being good. I've always felt you are a pretty smart player, so the stance you are taking about how we should handle this strategy is just dumbfounding me. I can't possibly think you are anything but bad right now. I definitly don't think you are dumb which is the alternative.

[Schmidty]

Just woke up.

[BrianD]

I'm sad to see the path12/Alan T fight today. I'm also sad to see that the KWhit vote didn't get more attention. We can probably look back over the conversations today to see if there are any clues, but I'll share what I know.

KWhit was converted to Shadow last night. I used a Potion of Alertness and stayed in the ritual room last night. I saw a shadow member - who I could not identify - cast a spell on KWhit. I assume this has to be a conversion spell. I have already voted for him, but I will now...

Vote Punishment

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

It appears that mercy won't tell us much about who is affected by the shadow, and definitly won't help us release people from that corruption. As always, our most powerful tool for fighting the evil is the punishment. Those that are afraid to inflict that punishment are the doorways for the shadow to enter.

The only time mercy should be shown is in the case of a person's neck being on the line and giving indisputible last minute evidence that they are not affected by the shadow.

Originally Posted by Alan T

Vote Swaggs

Voting for anyone with the intent of giving them mercy anyhows without hearing more from them seems redundant and counter-productive.

When we have someone on the block, they by all means should give us a reason to not punish them, and at that time we can choose to give them mercy instead of punishment.

Originally Posted by Alan T

If you vote for mercy always, then you never will rid yourself of the shadow. If you vote punishment, you might end up stripping someone useful of their power, but also could remove the shadow influence from them.

Worst case is you target someone who is useful, they give you enough of a convincing of that and you can then give them mercy and buy more time to look at them a bit more in depth before stripping them of their powers. It is my belief that with the tools we have available, its even more benefitial for us than normal to go heavy at the punishment.

If you feel no one will ever be able to convince you they are good or bad, and thus will always vote mercy, you're not helping us at all.

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well I guess the scenerio I bring up is:

What if the person who is up for punishment/mercy ends up coming out and saying "I'm the Medium, or I'm the Spiritualist" or something along those lines. It appears that all of the magical roles are from the list there, and some of them might be handier than others. I think if someone came out saying they were a role that might be pretty useful in our effort to clense people of the shadow, I might reconsider being merciful.

If someone chooses to not defend themselves, or end up with some expendable role, I still say I likely will choose to punish. I just know my mind hasn't been made up until people have had their chance to defend themselves.

So, what here says that you would be willing to vote mercy without a reveal??

[Mr. Wednesday]

Brian's reveal seems pretty conclusive.

VOTE KWHIT

[Schmidty]

Just read my PMs:

KWHIT IS 100% SHADOW!!!!!

I used my ability to track shadow or sun back to it's source, and that source was KWhit. My ability only gives me a chance to find this information out each night, and I can't target anyone in particular, just the shadow or sun.

I know that I am kind of risking things by revealing this, but we have a 100% chance to get a bad guy, and I want us to take full advantage!!!

Vote KWhit

Vote Punishment

[path12]

UNVOTE ALAN T
VOTE KWHIT

Punishment vote remains as is. Good job, Schmidty & Brian!

[Mustang]

I understand the desire to cleanse a volunteer but, all that does is guarantee 99% that someone good is cleansed (I can't see a Shadow volunteering unless there were like 6-7 volunteers) and there will be zero percent chance of even remotely cleansing a shadow.

[SnDvls]

Works for me Brian

vote KWHIT

[Mr. Wednesday]

The point, as put forward, was to get someone whose analysis is good in a known trusted position. The opportunity cost of doing so is debateable.

[Mustang]

Unvote Schmidty

Vote KWhit


I'd recommend seeing if they are telling the truth. Would be a very good ploy by the original Shadow to convert someone, say they found out they were Shadow the next day and then sit back with 100% trust by everyone. If KWhit was converted last night, he would have no knowledge of anything so.. easy way to gain trust IMO.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

The point, as put forward, was to get someone whose analysis is good in a known trusted position. The opportunity cost of doing so is debateable.

I understand, I just don't fully agree with it.

[Joe]

I was going to vote elsewhere, but with that..

vote kwhit and punishment

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by path12

The flimsy reasoning is on your side this time, my friend, and isn't like you.

As I understood Chief's suggestion, he suggested that one of us with one of the magical roles of lesser importance volunteer to be cleansed so that we did not end up voting someone with a crucial role and forcing them to a) reveal or b) lose the benefit of their role.

It was a VOLUNTEER that he asked for. This makes eminent sense for today only -- we have various and sundry of our fellow cultists who are working behind the scenes at night to help find the shadows. It is to our total benefit to allow those people to work without either suspicion coming upon them or without forcing them to acknowledge their importance to point out to the shadows.

Instead you seemed to turn that into an everyday occurance and shot it down, like you have virtually any other idea that has been floated so far this game.......as well as neglecting to send in a night action that would supposedly help us also. You are the one who strikes me as not working for the benefit of good right now, not that suggestion by Chief.

There are two problems with this idea:
1. You shrink the number of people who may have an important role by coming out and saying your role is good but trivial
2. You ensure that we do not get a shadow if you are being truthful

Those are the problems I've seen with the idea from the outset. Just wish I had a little more time today to participate in the discussion.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

So, what here says that you would be willing to vote mercy without a reveal??

Why would I want to vote mercy without some reason? I have said many times that people need to put some consideration into their mercy/punishment vote and not just throw them out blindly. I've repeated this many times. THanks for making my point for me.

Unvote Chief
Vote Kwhit

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Unvote Schmidty

Vote KWhit


I'd recommend seeing if they are telling the truth. Would be a very good ploy by the original Shadow to convert someone, say they found out they were Shadow the next day and then sit back with 100% trust by everyone. If KWhit was converted last night, he would have no knowledge of anything so.. easy way to gain trust IMO.

The only thing though is Schmidty pretty much revealed what his role was by his reveal. If we believe that the shadows don't have magical roles (Since converted players lose their roles when converted), it would be a stretch to accuse Schmidty of this.

[DaddyTorgo]

home

[DaddyTorgo]

wow! stunner of a revelation there. This bodes VERY well for the good guys. We could very well have this wrapped up quickly guys!

VOTE KWHIT

VOTE PUNISHMENT

[hoopsguy]

Caught up on reading now. And will likely be out until well after deadline. Nice to have an easy choice, backed by two people.

VOTE KWHIT/PUNISHMENT

[DaddyTorgo]

really hope we get one. That would be great. Way to go brian+schmidty

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Alan T

The only thing though is Schmidty pretty much revealed what his role was by his reveal. If we believe that the shadows don't have magical roles (Since converted players lose their roles when converted), it would be a stretch to accuse Schmidty of this.

I get a little skeptical when 2 people are able to point the finger at one person this early.

[path12]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

There are two problems with this idea:
1. You shrink the number of people who may have an important role by coming out and saying your role is good but trivial
2. You ensure that we do not get a shadow if you are being truthful

Those are the problems I've seen with the idea from the outset. Just wish I had a little more time today to participate in the discussion.

Well, you do shrink it by one, true. My argument is that one person who doesn't have an important role would have been sacrificing that for the greater good, which is not to put any of the important roles in a position where they have to either reveal or make themselves known as important for the shadows to choose at night.....especially if the only way that we're going to vote mercy is with a credible reveal. It would suck to have say the crafter or one of the seer types be working behind the scenes and then lose their power to help the cultists...

However, it's moot for now since we seem to have come up with a good candidate. I maintain that it was not a bad idea though.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Why would I want to vote mercy without some reason? I have said many times that people need to put some consideration into their mercy/punishment vote and not just throw them out blindly. I've repeated this many times. THanks for making my point for me.

You're also making my point for me. If you don't want to have the important roles reveal, wouldn't it be better for someone of relative non-importance take the hit since you're not in favor of mercy without revealing?

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I get a little skeptical when 2 people are able to point the finger at one person this early.

I'm guessing this is how the good guys get to have a shot in this game. There will be lots of bad guy conversions and hopefully plenty of chances to identify bad guys. I'm expecting this to be a sprint on both sides.