NFL 2023 Offseason/Free Agency/Draft Thread

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by molson

The reports were that it was $133 million due at signing, but additional guarantees that would be paid later (totaling $200 million).

The 3 years/$133 million kind of makes sense though because that's Watson money per year, just for 3 years instead of 5. But maybe there were some kind of mechanics/cap tomfoolery/options whatever for years 4 and 5 which aren't easily tweetable.

I do think there was probably more, but Jackson was only concerned about the guaranteed money. Of course, who can blame him? That is the only money that is "real" in these contracts.

[GrantDawg]

I think Micheal Irving is going to lose that lawsuit. Without sound, there is no way for him to prove he didn't say what was claimed, and it is definitely believable by the video the woman was very uncomfortable and it was noticeable enough that two male co-workers ran interference.

[Thomkal]

Cards get their first off-team signing of free agency with LB Kyzir White who followed his coordinator from Philly to Arizona. Looking at the stats and I like what I see there.



Also sad to see they released LB Markus Golden who I think is another defensive player they gave up on too soon.

[Solecismic]

Tracking the quarterback situation:

Generally, I go with the sum-of-the-parts approach for the rest of a team. Fit can be difficult to assess because one player move or acquisition can change the responsibilities for several players.

Also, when you're talking about edge rushers, you need burst and you need more of it than two players can provide. Then on the interior line, defensive tackles tire out very quickly. And all that has a huge impact on what you're asking from the secondary.

Offense is more scheme and quarterback. So I track the quarterbacks and pay much less attention to the rest of it, though I've done some work on wide receivers beyond this and found that it's not as easy as it looks.

Here's what teams have today. Question marks are mostly for backup positions that likely need to be filled. Some starters, of course.

Arizona: Murray/McCoy
Los Angeles Rams: Stafford/?
San Francisco: Lance/Darnold/Purdy
Seattle: Smith/Lock

Atlanta: Ridder/Heinicke/Woodside
Carolina: ?(#1)/Dalton/Corral/Eason
New Orleans: Carr/Winston/Luton
Tampa Bay: Mayfield or Trask

Chicago: Fields/Walker
Detroit: Goff/?
Green Bay: Rodgers??/Love/Etling
Minnesota: Cousins/Mullins

Dallas: Prescott/Rush/Grier
New York Giants: Jones/Taylor
Philadelphia: Hurts/Mariota/Book
Washington: Brissett or Howell/Fromm

Denver: Wilson/Stidham/Guarantano
Kansas City: Mahomes/?/Oladokun
Las Vegas: Garoppolo/?/Garbers
Los Angeles Chargers: Herbert/?/Stick

Houston: ?(#2)/Mills/Keenum/Perry
Indianapolis: ?(#4)/Minshew/Foles (expect release)/Ehlinger
Jacksonville: Lawrence/Beathard
Tennessee: Tannehill/Willis

Baltimore: Jackson/Huntley/Brown
Cincinnati: Burrow/?/Browning
Cleveland: Watson/?/Mond
Pittsburgh: Pickett/Trubisky

Buffalo: J.Allen/K.Allen/Barkley
Miami: Tagovailoa/White/Thompson
New England: Jones/Zappe
New York Jets: ??/Wilson/Streveler

And here's what's available, along with career record and league entry. Maybe a handful of these guys can start, but it's not ideal.

Does Ryan have anything left? He'll be 38 this season. Until recently, that was Old in this league and he definitely looked old this past season. And 2021 and 2019 were subpar. He hasn't been above average for an NFL starter since 2018.

Does Indy trade with Arizona to prevent Arizona from getting a potential bonanza if someone falls in love with one of the QBs available at #3?

Ryan: 127-115-1 (2008)
Flacco: 109-85 (2008)
Wentz: 45-45-1 (2016)
Bridgewater: 32-34 (2014)
Hoyer: 14-24 (2009)
Siemian: 13-17 (2005)
Gabbert: 13-35 (2011)
Hodges: 4-3 (2019)
Rudolph: 4-5-1 (2018)
Daniel: 3-3 (2009)
Rypien: 2-1 (2019)
B.Allen: 2-7 (2016)
Driskel: 1-8 (2016)
Wolford: 1-2 (2018)

Editing with 3/17 changes...

[RainMaker]

Dalton just signed with Carolina.

I think the Commanders are going to let it ride with Howell this year.

[GrantDawg]

Ian Rapport says the Falcons are resigning Kaleb McGary. That's big.

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[Coffee Warlord]

David Montgomery to the Lions, at something like 6 million per. Not surprised the Bears didn't wanna go that high on him. Good runner, but awful pass blocker and was never a big receiving threat.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Looks like Lamar finally spoke out on what the Ravens offered him. 3 years/$133 million guaranteed. Slams all the reports they had offered $200 million guaranteed or $250 million guaranteed. May be misrepresenting what the offer was, but if not that is a pretty low-ball guaranteed money.

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CORRECTION: Lamar Jackson was offered a 6-year, $290 million deal with $133 million fully guaranteed

[JPhillips]

By the time the 2023 season starts, that might not be in the top ten of QB guaranteed money.

[miked]

The reporting is a bit favorable to BAL from Scheffler and dudes. I think it is funny that even though future amounts were not actually guaranteed, the reporters say it is because the cap hit would be too high to release. But in 2-3 years, who knows what the cap situation of the teams and league will be. Just because you think the terms are likely to produce a result, that does not mean it is actually fully guaranteed.

[GrantDawg]

That's not a correction. Read to the end of the article. That was a contract offer two years ago, and Rapport says the team did try offering Lamar a shorter term offer more recently, which was probably what Lamar was referring to.The big correction was the one Lamar gave, that he has never been offered $200-$250 million guaranteed.

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[GrantDawg]

Another thing about that article. They were listing Murray's guaranteed money at $103million, when everything I see has it $160 million. Others have it at $185 million. Wilson's guaranteed money is listed at $165 million.

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[miked]

Russell Wilson...$124M fully guaranteed at signing (signing bonus + 2022 salary/roster bonus + 2023 salary/option bonus + 2024 salary/option bonus) $37M 2025 salary fully guarantees the 5th league day of 2024. $4M of 2026 salary guaranteed for injury only. 2023 Option Bonus: $20M (guaranteed, must be exercised 3/15/23 - 3/19/23).

So like the previous article, one could argue that the last 20M is essentially guaranteed because it is in year 2 that would catastrophic to the cap if they cut him. The argument that the journalists are making is that things like that, which would be cap poison, are essentially guaranteed unless the team was really willing to implode for a year or two in dead cap.

[Atocep]

I think the last block on Jalen Carter's "how to destroy your draft stock" Bingo card is Instagram of yourself doing drugs or having a weapon.


He showed up to the Georgia pro day 9 pounds heavier than at the combine and had to drop out of portion drills because he was so out of shape and cramping.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think the last block on Jalen Carter's "how to destroy your draft stock" Bingo card is Instagram of yourself doing drugs or having a weapon.


He showed up to the Georgia pro day 9 pounds heavier than at the combine and had to drop out of portion drills because he was so out of shape and cramping.

Woof.

[albionmoonlight]

Leaving a lotta money on the table there

[GrantDawg]

Gotta wonder about his mental condition right now. I hope his agent is trying to get him in some counseling now. He may even need to go inpatient somewhere for a few weeks to help him sort some things out.

[Solecismic]

Rodgers with an unusual story about emerging from the darkness and feeling Green Bay didn't want him any more, wanting to retire, but feeling committed again and the Jets came out from New York to visit him in California.

If you watched Mad Men, this feels like Don Draper and the final plot arch and it's all going to wind up as a Coke commercial. I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.

So, does he get Namath's "12" in New York? Giving a quarterback 12, for a long time, was like giving your center-forward 9 in soccer.

Meanwhile, Tampa Bay gave Mayfield backup money and a one-year deal. They're behaving like they believe in Trask.

My guess at this point is that QBs are going 1-4 and Arizona will get a nice haul to trade down. Maybe Tampa Bay, then, though I think Washington's situation is probably the worst - assuming Draper still has his fastball.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Gotta wonder about his mental condition right now. I hope his agent is trying to get him in some counseling now. He may even need to go inpatient somewhere for a few weeks to help him sort some things out.

I did misdemeanor criminal defense for a while, and there are a lot of people who engage in self sabotage that could have been avoided if they had just had the resources/willingness/whatever to go into therapy.

[GrantDawg]

Brissett going to the Redskins.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Brissett going to the Redskins.

Spotrac has him signing with Cleveland, but the text says Washington. I'm guessing the latter - Sportrac is very accurate in the end, but a human is entering the data as it comes in and they make typos and other little human errors.

Interesting modern-ish example of the crazyness out there right now. I was on some sports information site, forget which, and it included a pane of information extracted from google. The player had played for the Redskins.

So the information pops up in the pane, and then goes blank. Didn't do that for dozens of other players. I tested it on other former Redskins players - did the same thing. Now that they're the Commanders, it's like they never were anything else and Winston Smith is working as we search.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Spotrac has him signing with Cleveland, but the text says Washington. I'm guessing the latter - Sportrac is very accurate in the end, but a human is entering the data as it comes in and they make typos and other little human errors.

Interesting modern-ish example of the crazyness out there right now. I was on some sports information site, forget which, and it included a pane of information extracted from google. The player had played for the Redskins.

So the information pops up in the pane, and then goes blank. Didn't do that for dozens of other players. I tested it on other former Redskins players - did the same thing. Now that they're the Commanders, it's like they never were anything else and Winston Smith is working as we search.

I just realized I said Redskins. I will never get used to that. I don't even really hate the whole Commanders thing.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Gotta wonder about his mental condition right now. I hope his agent is trying to get him in some counseling now. He may even need to go inpatient somewhere for a few weeks to help him sort some things out.

This was my thought as well when I read the story. If that's what he's dealing with, I hope he's getting help and being open about that in his interviews. Evaluators will be understanding if he's having problems and he's open about it. Otherwise, they may assume the talk about him not being committed to the work and other character issues is closer to the truth.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I just realized I said Redskins. I will never get used to that. I don't even really hate the whole Commanders thing.

I feel the same way. It became a distraction. The explanation that local tribes were fine with it and the team was committed to a positive image worked for a long time, and it doesn't today so they made a change. Same with the Cleveland Indians.

It's interesting reading the CBS live free agency feed. Their reporter really, really, really hates Rodgers. It's a deep, personal thing.

That's the kind of thing that back when I was in journalism school, would have gotten you fired from a small weekly paper. Now it's everywhere, even where hundreds of thousands of people will be reading you.

So, Carter... I'm not sure that someone who has reached this point and is making this kind of mistake is going to benefit from counseling like it's a magic cure. Counseling works if you admit you have a problem and genuinely recognize your mistakes and want to change. He seems more like he's at a stage where he's unaware it's a problem and just doesn't like getting caught.

As much as I like the reform and excel story, and who doesn't, I'd probably give him the red star if I were drafting for a team.

[RainMaker]

He was out of shape in the CFP too. The guy has immense talent and is worth the risk at some point in the draft. But I get the feeling that maybe his heart just isn't in it. If you can't get in shape for a day that will determine how many millions you'll get, what are the odds you're getting in shape for the season?

[miami_fan]

Wasn't one of Aaron Rodgers' complaints about the Packers that he did not have quality receivers to work with? Why is he requesting (demanding?) the Jets bring in former Packer receivers if they weren't good enough for him in GB?

[Danny]

He's turning into homelander. Guys got off the rails

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

As much as I like the reform and excel story, and who doesn't, I'd probably give him the red star if I were drafting for a team.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I don't think I would draft him at this point, at least not in the first round.

If he falls to the Lions at 6, I can't see them taking him. Not because of the legal issues, but everything else.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am loving every moment of this Aaron Rodgers stuff and he's not even officially a member of the Jets yet. Once he gets there and the New York media can really sink their teeth in... Delightful.

[JPhillips]

I did not expect the Bengals to land Orlando Brown Jr.

[weegeebored]

I was kind of hoping the Bears would land him. Yes, Brown insisted on playing LT. But he's not going to be worse than Braxton Jones there, and probably better. Move Jones to RT. GMs tend to fall in love with the guys they pick in the draft, though -- for better or worse. Still wondering what they do with the #9 pick.

[Solecismic]

Jalen Carter had his wrist thoroughly slapped in Atlanta. His lawyer appears extraordinarily adept at tap-dancing.

"First, Jalen Carter's actions on Jan. 15, 2023, did not cause the cause the tragic accident involving Chandler LeCroy, Devin Willock, Victoria Bowles, and Warren McClendon," Carter's attorney, Kim T. Stephens, said in a statement (via NFL Media). "If the investigation had determined otherwise, Mr. Carter would have been charged with far more serious offenses of vehicular homicide and serious injury by vehicle under Georgia law, both felony offenses, and would have faced a lengthy prison sentence.

"Second, Mr. Carter never left the scene of the accident without being told that he could leave. He stopped his car immediately after the accident occurred and ran toward the wrecked vehicle while his passenger called 911. Even after being informed that he could leave, Mr. Carter returned to the scene at the request of the Athens-Clarke County Police Department to answer additional questions and continue to cooperate throughout the investigation.*

"Finally, Jalen Carter had not been drinking alcohol and was not under the influence of alcohol or any other illegal substance at the time of the wreck. If there had been any suspicion that Mr. Carter had consumed alcohol or used an illegal substance when Athens-Clarke County police officers and investigators spoke to him at the scene, following the accident, they would have arrested him for DUI."

Why outlaw drag racing at all? As long as you're good at it and only the people you're racing against cause harm, you're just a fine, upstanding young person who is always willing to call for an ambulance if necessary.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by weegeebored

I was kind of hoping the Bears would land him. Yes, Brown insisted on playing LT. But he's not going to be worse than Braxton Jones there, and probably better. Move Jones to RT. GMs tend to fall in love with the guys they pick in the draft, though -- for better or worse. Still wondering what they do with the #9 pick.

Still not really sure what the plan is for the Bears this offseason. They have a ton of money to spend and the only big signing was a middle linebacker. This after they told their fans they don't value the position much and is the reason they had to trade Roquan.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Still not really sure what the plan is for the Bears this offseason...

I'm guessing this isn't the first year you've said this.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Jalen Carter had his wrist thoroughly slapped in Atlanta. His lawyer appears extraordinarily adept at tap-dancing.



Why outlaw drag racing at all? As long as you're good at it and only the people you're racing against cause harm, you're just a fine, upstanding young person who is always willing to call for an ambulance if necessary.

His attorney did a good job laying out what Georgia law is. You might not like the law, but they can't retroactively change the law to punish some one beyond what that law allows. People that are familiar with what these charges usually bring say this was actually the upper end of the punishment that people usually face.

Should racing be made felonies? Maybe. I would be for creating felony racing charges if a death occurred during the race. Right now there is no such escalator. And they can't charge him with vehicular homicide unless he was the direct cause of the accident. They determine he was not. A woman driving while heavily intoxicated was driving recklessly at a high rate of speed. She wasn't hit by anyone. She was not pushed off the road by anyone. She was the responsible party. She sadly paid with her life, and took a passenger with her.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

If he falls to the Lions at 6, I can't see them taking him. Not because of the legal issues, but everything else.

I agree that being out of shape for the pro day will be a greater factor in where he is drafted. I still expect him to be drafted in the first half of the first round. Maybe the thinking in NFL front offices have changed but I just don't see teams ignoring three years of game tape, especially for a defensive player over this issues he has had over the last two months.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

His attorney did a good job laying out what Georgia law is. You might not like the law, but they can't retroactively change the law to punish some one beyond what that law allows. People that are familiar with what these charges usually bring say this was actually the upper end of the punishment that people usually face.

Should racing be made felonies? Maybe. I would be for creating felony racing charges if a death occurred during the race. Right now there is no such escalator. And they can't charge him with vehicular homicide unless he was the direct cause of the accident. They determine he was not. A woman driving while heavily intoxicated was driving recklessly at a high rate of speed. She wasn't hit by anyone. She was not pushed off the road by anyone. She was the responsible party. She sadly paid with her life, and took a passenger with her.

I don't dispute your assessment of the law. It's an interesting question. If you're street racing, you're not responsible for anything that happens during your race that you did not directly cause.

This is in line with a libertarian view of lawmaking, which I'm usually sympathetic to in many ways. In an ideal world, people who are really good at street racing and can avoid pedestrians and other obstacles can street race to their heart's content.

Laws are about protecting rights in an area we have to share. Civilization requires law. If people have fewer rights, then we need fewer laws. Everything's less complicated. The more freedom we have, the more laws we need to protect that freedom, which in turn limits our freedom.

So I'm not as certain as Potter Stewart (in Jacobellis v. Ohio). And I have a strong mistrust of government. At the same time, I don't want to live in a place where people are street racing nearby. Oh, well. Still wouldn't draft him.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Laws are about protecting rights in an area we have to share. Civilization requires law. If people have fewer rights, then we need fewer laws. Everything's less complicated. The more freedom we have, the more laws we need to protect that freedom, which in turn limits our freedom.

They can't street race to their hearts content. It is illegal. Georgia statute puts it as a misdemeanor and it bears certain punishment. If you are convicted 3 times, it then becomes a felony with even greater weight of penalties. It is a close equivalent to DUI. First offense fines and such, but increases if you are convicted more than once, and I believe three times of that becomes a felony.

Vehicular homicide, at least in this state, can only be charged if the driver was directly responsible for the accident. You can say racing indirectly caused the accident here, but the direct cause was a drunk driver.

I get not liking that he isn't charged with more. Almost anytime there is a death we want harsh justice from someone. If the woman driving had survived, she would have faced some pretty heavy charges. But she did sadly pay the ultimate penalty in the end.

[cuervo72]

but they should be FREEEE don't rein in the Harrison Bergerons of street racing with your unjust laws

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

They can't street race to their hearts content. It is illegal. Georgia statute puts it as a misdemeanor and it bears certain punishment. If you are convicted 3 times, it then becomes a felony with even greater weight of penalties. It is a close equivalent to DUI. First offense fines and such, but increases if you are convicted more than once, and I believe three times of that becomes a felony.

Vehicular homicide, at least in this state, can only be charged if the driver was directly responsible for the accident. You can say racing indirectly caused the accident here, but the direct cause was a drunk driver.

I get not liking that he isn't charged with more. Almost anytime there is a death we want harsh justice from someone. If the woman driving had survived, she would have faced some pretty heavy charges. But she did sadly pay the ultimate penalty in the end.

Obviously, already attracting the trolls here, so I'll limit this response and leave it at that. It's not about liking or disliking. It's about balancing rights. Which is far more complex than one can have in a judicial system.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Obviously, already attracting the trolls here, so I'll limit this response and leave it at that. It's not about liking or disliking. It's about balancing rights. Which is far more complex than one can have in a judicial system.

1. I fully understand that no matter how I may present something, your long-held opinion of me won't change.

2. I am using the amount of seriousness I feel discussion of "libertarianism" deserves.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

1. I fully understand that no matter how I may present something, your long-held opinion of me won't change.

No. My opinions of many posters have changed many times.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

2. I am using the amount of seriousness I feel discussion of "libertarianism" deserves.

Why troll? This is about the spectrum of political opinion. Small L, not large L. So even if your default response to Libertarianism is that it's beneath your contempt, I don't understand your response. I clearly used a different, but tangentially related word as an adjective. It would be like slamming Democrats if someone made a comment about democracies.

A legal assessment of the level of personal responsibility for something that causes harm can be addressed in many ways, depending on where you think the right place on the spectrum is for this sort of event. I think this is a complicated issue, and whether I like this particular judicial result is irrelevant - though I think Carter's actions and reactions have a lot to do with my assessment of him as a player I'd want on my football team.

[NobodyHere]

Can someone please point me the way to the non-political NFL thread?

[Solecismic]

... and sometimes they don't.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I was thinking the exact same thing. I don't think I would draft him at this point, at least not in the first round.

If he falls to the Lions at 6, I can't see them taking him. Not because of the legal issues, but everything else.

If you're the Lions, do you take a QB at #6? Goff seems fine for now, but he's not the long term answer. The way the Lions are trending, they may not have a pick this high for awhile. Do you take Richardson or Levis and let them sit behind Goff?

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If you're the Lions, do you take a QB at #6? Goff seems fine for now, but he's not the long term answer. The way the Lions are trending, they may not have a pick this high for awhile. Do you take Richardson or Levis and let them sit behind Goff?

In truth, I don't disagree with you, but playing devil's advocate here: do we know Goff isn't the answer? He's already taken a team to the super bowl. He's under 30. He finished last year top-6 in practically every passing category. What hypothetical are we hunting for that Goff has proven he doesn't have?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Why troll?

In this case, the idea that "This is in line with a libertarian view of lawmaking, which I'm usually sympathetic to in many ways. In an ideal world, people who are really good at street racing and can avoid pedestrians and other obstacles can street race to their heart's content." just struck me as particularly...silly both ideologically and in the context of the thread. I felt (for whatever reason) that I wanted to make that known, but also didn't really want to expend the energy to do so in anything other than a pithy manner.

"Ideally." I mean, why even posit this? It's an impossibility. Even in the hypothetical -- one, you are relying on people to make accurate assessments of their driving abilities. Two, you are relying on them to be truthful about the assessments. (Well, probably also three that people will even care not to hit pedestrians.) In reality you get part Carmageddon and part Dunning-Kruger Racing Team. It doesn't work because there's a segment of the population that you just can't trust.

(On a larger level, it's why I am not on board with the "don't trust government" wagon, at least as an absolute. No, you obviously don't want to trust all governments -- it depends on who's running it. Too often the problem with them is that they are run by the above segment of the population that you just can't trust. Again, "in theory" a democracy/republic is supposed to guard against this, if as representation increases those people who can practice good, fair judgement outnumber the bad actors. Unfortunately we're not there yet, either.

I always come back to FOF as a microcosm of why libertarianism doesn't work [though I feel like you actually touched on this with the more freedom/more laws/less freedom paradox?]. If everyone was a good actor, we could play in a league without rules. But here comes Chubby, mucking up that idea. So we put in some rules. Then we have Ben and Quik and MalcPow, bending the game in ways that were not "intended." So we have patches and code revisions -- more laws. Because by nature we are always going to have bad actors and angle shooters.)

As regards Georgia's law...I don't know, but it seems like racing should bear some responsibility. Usually the whole idea of racing is to go faster because someone else is pushing you to go faster. *shurg*

Anyway, back to football talk.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

In truth, I don't disagree with you, but playing devil's advocate here: do we know Goff isn't the answer? He's already taken a team to the super bowl. He's under 30. He finished last year top-6 in practically every passing category. What hypothetical are we hunting for that Goff has proven he doesn't have?

With Goff, I see someone who is good, not great, at just about everything. Statistically, he looks remarkably similar to Russell Wilson without the running threat. So the question is whether that adds up to great or not. He apparently wasn't great at prep work with the Rams, and so his coach wanted him out. That's a negative, but something he can presumably fix.

I think this is a window for the Lions if they make big improvements on defense. Which brings us back to the Carter debate. Now that it looks like he'll slip, do you gamble on the talent and risk a big zero when it's your window to win? Or do you go next best DL available and hope for someone as disruptive as Hutchinson?

[B & B]

Im on record.

Stating that I would throw (functional) electronic off my balcony if the Lions drafted Harrington in the first round back in 2002.

Launched a CRT 26" panasonic with impunity. Like gone, into the lake. Sounds odd but back then was a 300 buck normal living room TV.

Decades later, Im re upping with the INSANE idea of drafting ARich (Even at 18) Gonna toss 2kTVs


Televisions are at stake !!!
Trust In Holmes.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

In this case, the idea that "This is in line with a libertarian view of lawmaking, which I'm usually sympathetic to in many ways. In an ideal world, people who are really good at street racing and can avoid pedestrians and other obstacles can street race to their heart's content." just struck me as particularly...silly both ideologically and in the context of the thread. I felt (for whatever reason) that I wanted to make that known, but also didn't really want to expend the energy to do so in anything other than a pithy manner.

"Ideally." I mean, why even posit this? It's an impossibility. Even in the hypothetical -- one, you are relying on people to make accurate assessments of their driving abilities. Two, you are relying on them to be truthful about the assessments. (Well, probably also three that people will even care not to hit pedestrians.) In reality you get part Carmageddon and part Dunning-Kruger Racing Team. It doesn't work because there's a segment of the population that you just can't trust.

But isn't this a far better way to express that? Why engage if it's just to try and make someone feel bad on such a superficial level?

There's a long tradition of framing philosophical discussions in this manner. It didn't even start with More's Utopia. I'm not saying it's the best way to frame this discussion, but the idea I was trying to get across is exactly that - no one can reliably assess whether their actions deprive others of rights. Therefore we have laws that often replace the notion that everything should be decided on personal responsibility for direct harm. Leading toward potential support of laws that crack down harder on street racing.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

(On a larger level, it's why I am not on board with the "don't trust government" wagon, at least as an absolute. No, you obviously don't want to trust all governments -- it depends on who's running it. Too often the problem with them is that they are run by the above segment of the population that you just can't trust. Again, "in theory" a democracy/republic is supposed to guard against this, if as representation increases those people who can practice good, fair judgement outnumber the bad actors. Unfortunately we're not there yet, either.

Hence "strong mistrust of" rather than "absolute". And yes, we're not there and I think we're getting further and further away lately.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I always come back to FOF as a microcosm of why libertarianism doesn't work [though I feel like you actually touched on this with the more freedom/more laws/less freedom paradox?]. If everyone was a good actor, we could play in a league without rules. But here comes Chubby, mucking up that idea. So we put in some rules. Then we have Ben and Quik and MalcPow, bending the game in ways that were not "intended." So we have patches and code revisions -- more laws. Because by nature we are always going to have bad actors and angle shooters.)

I've come to dislike these leagues. My own experience was terrible, and that's partially my fault as well - I decided I wanted to compete rather than fluff away and bugs aside, I can see things others can't because I know the code. So I have nothing to gain from playing to win.

If I ever had to do it again, I would not have private leagues. It has to be impersonal and managed by an impartial central server that can grow with the community. No easy task. Maybe that's the Utopia. EA wanted it and gave up. I think their initial design was terrific, though. And at least ten years ahead of its time.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

As regards Georgia's law...I don't know, but it seems like racing should bear some responsibility. Usually the whole idea of racing is to go faster because someone else is pushing you to go faster. *shurg*

Yep. That's the whole notion of assigning percentages of blame. Then what percentage constitutes felony, etc. And I don't know those answers, just that it's part of framing the discussion. Carter has some real blame in what happened and my feeling from what he's said is that he doesn't see it.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Anyway, back to football talk.

Yes. It's hard for me to know when to stop. Because of my hearing impairment, I generally don't try to talk to people. I write. I've been writing for decades. So my tolerance for long, nuanced debate is much higher than just about anyone's.