Star Wars: Episode VII

[Neon_Chaos]

The Disney Infinity Star Wars game has Kylo Ren calling Rey cousin.

[NobodyHere]

That would be a terrible way to get a spoiler

[molson]

Leonardo Di Caprio says he turned down the role of Anakin.

Leonardo Di Caprio: 'I turned down the chance to play Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars' | NME.COM

I wonder if he would have done with those lines.....

People online have pointed out how much Di Caprio looks like Jake Lloyd, so maybe they were really hopeful they could get him. Hayden Christenson wasn't cast until sometime after the Phantom Menace came out.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

The Disney Infinity Star Wars game has Kylo Ren calling Rey cousin.

Apparently,

Kylo Ren says "Face Me, Curses!"

Disney Infinity Didn't Actually Spoil Episode 8's Big Reveal - IGN

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

To be fair, I have no real issues in Rey beating Kylo Ren in lightsaber dueling, its in getting the lightsaber by overpowering Kylo Ren in the Force is something that I cannot suspend my disbelief enough for - though the whole, earthquake opens up a hole right in the middle of both of them when Rey has to decide if she wants to strike him down was laaaame.

I'm with you on the earthquake thing - hated that she avoiding making a decision about Ren's fate.

And I'll agree with you that aspects of the Ren-Finn-Rey showdown require some mental gymnastics to explain, but I'm not convinced the redirecting of the lightsaber is one of them. At least, there's one consideration that might allow the gymnastics involved to be minimally strenuous.

Remember, earlier in the movie we learned of a new property of lightsabers - this one called out to Rey, granted her a vision, and seemed to awaken her connection to the force. It would thus appear this lightsaber has a unique connection to her. Perhaps that connection helped to steer it into her hands when she and Ren both called for it?

Speculation, of course, but in light of this surprising revelation about lightsabers it would seem a reasonable explanation - at the somersault mental gymnastics level, maybe.

[Brian Swartz]

There have been a number of comments on the genetic force ability being something that Lucas introduced in the prequels. I really don't know why this perception is going around, it's a fundamental element of the original trilogy.

Yoda(when dying) tells Luke the force runs strong in his family and to pass on what he has learned. He later discusses this with Obi-Wan, confirms that Leia is his sister, and of course this is a big part of the climactic confrontation with Vader and Palpatine. "So you have a twin sister? Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will." This is the threat that sets Luke off into a rage, he attacks Vader and is about to kill him and fall himself, it appears, before regaining his composure.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Are we also ignoring that Rey was force slammed against a tree with such force that it knocked her unconscious, you know after Kylo Ren had got that gut shot (hence why Finn had to deal with Kylo Ren one on one)?

Clearly she has the innate force ability of Blunt Wood Impact Immunity.

Originally Posted by larrymcg

There is no evidence in the prior 6 movies that injuries have no effect on ability to use the force.

Why does the entirety of pretty much everything Vader does in 4-6(after being, you know, virtually dismembered and burned) not count?

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Kylo Ren was strong enough and had enough accomplishments to kill all of the other apprentices at Luke's Jedi Academy. And formidable enough that it sent Luke into exile rather than taking care of him.

This. Those facts alone mean that he was not just some neophyte dark jedi. It should also be pointed out that he has some abilities Vader didn't, such as ripping memories from people's minds -- would have been good for him in interrogating Princess Leia, no? No need for the imperial torture droid. And then there's freezing blaster shots in mid-air, whereas at Cloud City Vader had to block them with his hand. Incidentally this also goes to the point that Han or someone similar could hang in a fight with a force-user with a fair bit of training. Umm, no. I think clearly Kylo Ren is not close to Vader, but much closer to Vader than to, say, your average skilled fighter.

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Why can't Rey be the Star Wars equivalent of a Sorcerer?

Some good points on this have already been mentioned(comparisons to gifted athletes or gifted anything really needing years of training to develop their gifts, the Dooku fight and how Anakin/Yoda fared, etc.). And then there's what Yoda himself said:

"Eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind."

I mean, it's not something you just 'pick up', much like Bobby Fischer couldn't just walk into a room with the best Russians, he studied for years before taking out Spassky. Or pick another analogy, it's similar in most any field of endeavor. Some can learn faster than others, certainly, but none reach a high level without extensive study and training. It just doesn't happen, which is why to some like myself who are fans of the original movies is just looks and sounds farcical.

[JAG]

Vader was able to read Luke's mind in their final battle to find out about Leia, but he wasn't able to read Leia's to find the location of the secret Rebel base. Do we have an explanation for how this was possible?

[Neon_Chaos]

I was under the impression that Kylo was busy using the force keeping his innards from spilling out after that bowcaster shot.

Did you what that motherfucking weapon did earlier in the movie? He took one straight in the gut.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by wade moore

If you like Star Wars and didn't like this, IMO, you'll never be satisfied.

This is assumption and just plain wrong. There seem to be a lot of people here who simply don't get what people like myself liked about Star Wars. The point has been made the plot wasn't air-tight. True about basically all movies, but of course true for 4-6 also. It did, IMO, stay true to the basic rules of the universe that had been set up though. Space travel, the nature of the force, good vs. evil, master/apprentice relationship, etc. all these elements don't fundamentally contradict so far as I know.

Here's the thing; I tried to like TFA. In the theatre I found myself smiling at things I didn't really like in retrospect, and laughing at things that weren't that funny. The next morning I had a sort of 'sinking feeling' after that initial few minutes where I forgot I'd gone to see it when I remembered having watched the movie the day before. It's not going to ruin my life or even my week, I'm over it and I'll go into the next one with reduced expectations hopefully, but the point is I really did try to like it. I just think the mentioned flaws are just horrible and fatal. I give the movie a lot of freedom on a number of points, such as:

** Han/Chewie/Leia. Thought some of the interactions were good, some of them quite forced particularly on Leia's side. But ya know whatever.
** Han dying the way he did, or dying at all. Fine with this, would have been fine if a different choice had been made.
** Continuing the Skywalker family tree with Kylo Ren and(if true), Rey. Again, ok with either way. Luke disappearing was a decision that initially surprised me.
** Kylo Ren having powers Vader didn't have. I'm sure he doesn't have some Vader did as well. No problem here.
** People have talked about a simpler story compared to the more complicated prequels. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight. could go either way.


Point being, on a lot of this stuff I'm pretty much whatever, the story has to evolve things go on and change, my preferences are not everybody's preferences, movies are made for mass market, and so forth. I really think I have a pretty big box all things considered.

The issue is, the story didn't evolve. As I mentioned, I have A New Hope. Most others do too. I expected the saga to continue, not repeat itself. And I would have been ok with it continuing in almost any direction. Could have killed off Luke. Story being about Luke starting up a new jedi academy and rebuilding the order was a possibility, which of course happened and failed apparently. But that could have been Ep. 7. Luke and/or Leia could have gone dark and had a new generation secretly opposing them, or dozens/hundreds of other possibilities -- the point is, the story could have been taken in any direction.

But it wasn't, it just repeated itself, and then juvenile additions like Rey being guarded by one stormtrooper with that ability to leave the door unlocked. Was there any point in A New Hope where getting Leia out of the detention block that easily seemed like a remote possibility(no, and it's a very tired cinematic silliness, the kind which Star Wars hasn't tended to employ, Jar Jar excepted). The 'they're splitting up now, on levels 1, 4, and 5' call back to a similar line, except ... they hadn't split up! Han, Chewie, and Finn are all standing right next to each other! Etc. Much as I tried to fight it, the distinct impression I got was that of a slap in the face, a parody repeat of A New Hope. Virtually any kind of new story would have been ok, at least in the broad strokes. Some ideas better than others of course, but my criticisms would have been much more muted. There was no continuation. Same type of weapon, same design flaw, same type of attack, same ... so very, very, many things. It's not at all like the law & order example given, in which(as a fan myself) you have police work and trial work but many different types of crimes, motivations, types of investigations, and so on -- I can't think of any two law & order episodes, ever, that have the same level of copycat as this.

Then on the training issue to wrap up, doesn't matter whether you look at original trilogy or prequels, the training issue is ever-present and whether it's Yoda/Luke or the Jedi Council/Anakin both times it's discussed as a major issue that ability alone is never enough. The right mindset, age(Yoda initially argues that Luke is too old), temperament, and so on are needed for there to be even a chance for someone to become a Jedi. There is a very nice common theme running through Luke/Anakin/Rey in which they have natural abilities in various things. This was particularly well done in TFA, if I may mention a strong point, her outsmarting Han and the interactions between them on a couple of occasions. Qui-Gon says of young Anakin that 'he sees things before they happen. It's a Jedi trait'. But nobody goes from there to 'I got this'. And by the by, where did Rey even find out that the Jedi Mind Trick was a thing? Nobody told her what the jedi powers are(she knows rumors and stories only). Never mind succeeding with it, how does she even know it as a possibility(note that in ANH, Obi-Wan demonstrates it to Luke who doesn't even try it for some time ... ). And on and on it goes.

Anyway, this will almost certainly be my last long post in this thread, but I thought there might be a chance to clear up my perspective on this at least a bit.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by JAG

Vader was able to read Luke's mind in their final battle to find out about Leia, but he wasn't able to read Leia's to find the location of the secret Rebel base. Do we have an explanation for how this was possible?

I think the answer is that he can't read minds, but can sense feelings to a degree. Obi-Wan warns Luke to 'bury his feelings deep down', Vader senses Luke's feelings are strong, especially for his sister, Luke in his turn senses the conflict between light and dark in Vader. I've always understood it as sensing feelings being naturally a quite different thing than reading(or tearing out!) specific thoughts.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

Leonardo Di Caprio says he turned down the role of Anakin.

I wonder if he would have done with those lines.....

Hard to say. An entire cast of objectively good actors (Portman & Neeson in particular) could do nothing with the script. But on the other hand McGregor and MacDiarmid managed to wring something from the script.

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There have been a number of comments on the genetic force ability being something that Lucas introduced in the prequels. I really don't know why this perception is going around, it's a fundamental element of the original trilogy.

Yoda(when dying) tells Luke the force runs strong in his family and to pass on what he has learned.

The Force can run strong in one's family yet still be available to others.

The movie, after all, is called "The Force Awakens". My theory is that the Force itself ebbs and flows, and this movie is set at a time of flow, granting some people access to the Force who might not normally, and making others more powerful in the force than others previously. It's even possible that the Force itself may favor some individuals over others.

If you look at it this way, it accounts for all of the complaints about Ren & Rey people are apparently having.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mota

Well, she is as powerful as a Sith who hasn't completed his training, and who was very wounded from a gut shot from Chewie's crossbow who they deliberately pointed out many times that it was much more powerful than a blaster.

Also, Kylo had just finished fighting against Finn and also killing his dad. The deck was pretty stacked against him. I'm sure if it was an even fight, she would have fared much worse.

Yeah, I don't understand how people are missing this. That blaster is shown earlier hitting people with such force that it knocks them yards away. Ren presumably uses the force to not only keep from being knocked back, but to temporarily stem the flow of blood and organs from what's almost certainly a very significant wound.

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

On the one hand I was sort of all "why is Rey able to so quickly learn the force?" while I was watching the movie. But then on the other hand when I thought about it, why couldn't she? Someone was the first person to discover the force and how to manipulate it; the first Jedi (or Sith). These people have been around for hundreds of years, right? Why can't some of them be more adept at 'feeling' their way into the force powers than training?

What if all that Jedi training was more about keeping Jedi from falling into the Dark Side, and less about developing their own abilities, besides some basics. This would explain:

1. How Luke defeats Vader (he's naturally more powerful in the Force) despite the fact that he doesn't really get a lot of training, and the main thing he really takes away from Yoda is an initial ability to still his mind so as to not turn to the Dark Side.

2. How Luke fails in training other Jedi (i.e. keeping them from the Dark Side), since he really didn't get a lot of training himself.

Heck, it would also explain:

3. Why Luke exiles himself: he knows he's very Force-sensitive, but also poorly-trained in comparison to Jedis of the past (trained to avoid falling to the Dark Side). He's held up as a mythical and powerful Jedi, a status he knows he's not going to be able to uphold. Thus he's more of a liability than an asset.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I think the answer is that he can't read minds, but can sense feelings to a degree. Obi-Wan warns Luke to 'bury his feelings deep down', Vader senses Luke's feelings are strong, especially for his sister, Luke in his turn senses the conflict between light and dark in Vader. I've always understood it as sensing feelings being naturally a quite different thing than reading(or tearing out!) specific thoughts.

I thought his exact line was "Your thoughts betray you, my son."

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

And by the by, where did Rey even find out that the Jedi Mind Trick was a thing?

I would suspect from one of the myriad of stories told about Luke, who is clearly a mythical figure by this point in time.

Kid 1: Remember the time Ben Kenobi saved Luke by using the Force to convince the Storm Troopers not to look at the droids?

Kid 2: Yeah, that was awesome! Let's do it - you be the Storm Trooper, I'll be Kenobi!

Kid 1: Not fair! I always have to be the Storm Trooper.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

But it wasn't, it just repeated itself, and then juvenile additions like Rey being guarded by one stormtrooper with that ability to leave the door unlocked.

Kylo Ren's clearly an unstable young man with a) only a passing interest in real security measures and b) a real talent for underestimating others. It's absolutely credible that he would think 1 Storm Trooper would be enough.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Nobody told her what the jedi powers are(she knows rumors and stories only). Never mind succeeding with it, how does she even know it as a possibility

You're describing the force as if it's a bunch of abilities/spells to be used in a game assigned to hotkeys. Force Push, Force Lightning, Jedi Mind Control, etc....

Instead, view the Force as some extra, and more powerful, er, "force" that allows you to do thing you wouldn't normally be able to do. Rey was in a desperate situation, but had clearly just been able to resist a Force user. Why not see if she could replicate a story from myth in a situation almost directly analogous to said myth?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Anyway, this will almost certainly be my last long post in this thread, but I thought there might be a chance to clear up my perspective on this at least a bit.

It's been 30 years since ROTJ. TFA needed to a) serve as an origin story for new characters since Ford / Hamill / Fisher are too old to carry a new trilogy and besides new characters are fun and b) provide a basis/introduction for any new world-building JJ Abrams needed for the subsequent films.

In this light, recycling part of the ANH plot (and I think you're being really uncharitable to say the whole plot's recycled) does two things: 1) establishes familiarity and patterns, which is good storytelling and 2) pays homage to the original.

There's also one critical way in which TFA is not like ANH: it's not a standalone movie, which ANH absolutely could have been (and presumably was created) in the event that it was not profitable. The purpose behind both movies is significantly different.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I expected the saga to continue, not repeat itself.

But then you also complain about anything that's not done the exact same way as it was in the previous movies. You're not giving the saga and the Star Wars world the chance to evolve. You're deriving rules from the original movies that were never spelled out, applying them to new characters and new stories, and complaining when they don't fit. That's just not a mindset that's going to lend itself to ANY soft-sci-fi series of movies which, by definition of the genre, is going to play around with and evolve the rules of the universe and not necessary emulate Earth. Which is cool, Star Wars is not for everyone.

[stevew]

Max Von Sydow's character has to be in Rogue One, right?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

Which is cool, Star Wars is not for everyone.

This is an asshole-like comment. Stop doing it. People can disagree with you while being fans of Star Wars. Star Wars can be for them as well - in fact their love of Star Wars animates the disappointment. Don't act as if your view makes you superior in the fandom.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

What if all that Jedi training was more about keeping Jedi from falling into the Dark Side, and less about developing their own abilities, besides some basics.

Then why do Dark Side practitioners also need training? Why are their Sith apprentices?

At the end of ESB, when Vader is convinced that he's just got Luke into carbonite and Luke force jumps out, he is impressed and says "Obi-Wan has taught you well" - indicating that training is more than just basics and don't turn to the dark side, but you have to be taught how to manipulate the Force - it's not just something that comes automatically.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This is an asshole-like comment. Stop doing it. People can disagree with you while being fans of Star Wars. Star Wars can be for them as well - in fact their love of Star Wars animates the disappointment. Don't act as if your view makes you superior in the fandom.

Settle down. You're the one lecturing everyone about the right way to think (like you do in every thread). I'm just trying to clarify that I'm not disagreeing with people that didn't like the movie. You're entitled to your opinion. I totally understand how some people aren't going to "buy" the silliness of the Star War universe, and that doesn't make them wrong about anything. I just don't need your permission to like it. Your criticisms aren't the objective truth, they're actually touching upon things a lot of us LIKE about these movies. You just have a really difficult time accepting anyone looking at this, or anything, differently than you do.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

Settle down. You're the one lecturing everyone about the right way to think (like you do in every thread). I'm just trying to clarify that I'm not disagreeing with people that didn't like the movie. You're entitled to your opinion. I totally understand how some people aren't going to "buy" the silliness of the Star War universe. I just don't need your permission to like it. Your criticisms aren't the objective truth, they're actually touching upon things a lot of us LIKE about these movies.

Well if you stop being as condescending as Hell, maybe I'd 'settle down'.

I have criticisms about the movie. Just because I have criticism doesn't mean that the fictional universe 'isn't for me'. I avoided this thread for pages because I didn't want to toss bombs - it was only when people started claiming that the people that didn't like would never be satisfied by any SW I jumped back in to show the falsity of that statement.

As for lecturing about the right way to think - oh sweet, sweet irony.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well if you stop being as condescending as Hell, maybe I'd 'settle down'.

I have criticisms about the movie. Just because I have criticism doesn't mean that the fictional universe 'isn't for me'. I avoided this thread for pages because I didn't want to toss bombs - it was only when people started claiming that the people that didn't like would never be satisfied by any SW I jumped back in to show the falsity of that statement.

As for lecturing about the right way to think - oh sweet, sweet irony.

Let's remember that you're the first one to resort to personal attacks in a discussion about STAR WARS. There's no need to "toss bombs" at anyone here, it's just a movie

I respect your opinion, you don't respect mine.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

I respect your opinion, you don't respect mine.

Bullshit. You don't respect the opinions of anyone who doesn't agree with you, though you loudly like to proclaim you do. Being condescending shows with all apparentness the lack of respect you have.

[molson]

And I sincerely apologize for coming off as condescending when all I'm trying to do is emphasize that there's no correct opinions about whether someone likes a movie or not. There's plenty of movies and movie genres that "aren't for me." That's all I meant. That doesn't make those genres and movies objectively bad or unworthy, they're just "not for me". Lots of people really enjoyed Star Wars, obviously. They're not "incorrect" for doing so. I was aware that people didn't like this movie, I just jumped into this thread when someone made a post about how he didn't understand how certain plot elements could be "vaguely tolerated". So I expressed why I liked the movie and "tolerated" those things. I think the poster is wrong about those things just being objectively bad, but it's certainly cool that those things bothered him personally, I can't disagree with that angle of it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Bullshit. You don't respect the opinions of anyone who doesn't agree with you, though you loudly like to proclaim you do. Being condescending shows with all apparentness the lack of respect you have.

I try really hard to see where other people are coming from. I'm not perfect at it, but it's a value I work on. Here, it's actually pretty easy, I do totally get why people don't like Star Wars and can't buy into the weirdness of these universes. It's harder to respect people who come at you with personal attacks, but your opinions on a movie are still perfectly valid.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

And I sincerely apologize for coming off as condescending when all I'm trying to do is emphasize that there's no correct opinions about whether someone likes a movie or not. There's plenty of movies and movie genres that "aren't for me." That's all I meant. That doesn't make those genres and movies objectively bad or unworthy, they're not "just for me." Lots of people really enjoyed Star Wars, obviously. They're not "incorrect" for doing so.

There are no correct opinions and people who both liked and disliked a movie can still have the universe be "for them". It felt exclusionary. I kind of get what you may have been trying to do, but perhaps saying it more like the movie wasn't for them rather than the universe wasn't for them would work better. I was fine with the rest of your post until that last sentence.

[Edward64]

On a lighter note ....

Kids and I watched 4, 5, 6 the past couple days. We are going to see 7 again now that they have the background story (should have done this originally).

How many times have folks seen 7 so far?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Then why do Dark Side practitioners also need training? Why are their Sith apprentices?

At the end of ESB, when Vader is convinced that he's just got Luke into carbonite and Luke force jumps out, he is impressed and says "Obi-Wan has taught you well" - indicating that training is more than just basics and don't turn to the dark side, but you have to be taught how to manipulate the Force - it's not just something that comes automatically.

I said "What if all that Jedi training was more about keeping Jedi from falling into the Dark Side, and less about developing their own abilities, besides some basics", not that the former was to the exclusion of the latter.

And anyway, that was in response to the proposal that one couldn't really do much with the Force without training, which seems to be the core issue.

All 7 films clearly show a wide variety of natural Force ability among Force users. Clearly a part of the reason for all that Jedi Training at the Academy was to get people to exploit and control their natural Force abilities. Clearly a big part of the reason for all that training was to avoid the Dark Side (more important for those more naturally talented in the Force, maybe?).

But in a galaxy of billions or trillions, there's nothing to suggest it would actually be impossible for someone to develop and naturally use their own latent Force powers to some sort of extent. Again the analogies to athletes and/or child prodigies/geniuses, etc....


There seems to be some orthodox dogma here that because neither Anakin nor Luke used their latent Force powers in any significant way prior to being "trained", that it's not kosher to have Rey be able to do so. But, there's also no particular evidence to show that she can't. In addition, as I mentioned before, The Force has Awakened, and perhaps this means in VII (and 8, 9, etc...) the rules are different. Is that so bad?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

How many times have folks seen 7 so far?

Only once so far, but booked to go see it a 2nd time on Saturday. Just a super-entertaining movie and also I feel I'll catch more stuff the 2nd time around.

[flere-imsaho]

And anyway, anyone complaining about the nuances of the rules behind Force usage in TFA should realize that's a frivolous argument compared to the fact that spaceships in this Universe still do not adhere to Newtonian (or even Einsteinien) physics.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

There seems to be some orthodox dogma here that because neither Anakin nor Luke used their latent Force powers in any significant way prior to being "trained", that it's not kosher to have Rey be able to do so. But, there's also no particular evidence to show that she can't. In addition, as I mentioned before, The Force has Awakened, and perhaps this means in VII (and 8, 9, etc...) the rules are different. Is that so bad?

It simply strains disbelief for some of us. As Brian Swartz pointed out, seemingly establishing some ground rules for a universe and then pulling those rules out from underneath 'just because' just feels cheap to some of us - interestingly, its exactly what fan fiction is notorious for doing.

The Force awakens seemed to me to be more of a there are going to be new Jedi - not that the Force has randomly decided to change the rules.

[Neon_Chaos]

Is the general assumption that Rey did not have previous training before being left in the sand planet?

Perhaps The Force Awakens alludes to the fact that it also has laid dormant for quite some time?

It's clear that Rey touching Luke's lightsaber triggered something in her.

Lots of mystery boxes still left to be opened... which is JJ Abram's style of storytelling anyway. I'm sure we'll have answers in the coming movies.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It simply strains disbelief for some of us. As Brian Swartz pointed out, seemingly establishing some ground rules for a universe and then pulling those rules out from underneath 'just because' just feels cheap to some of us - interestingly, its exactly what fan fiction is notorious for doing.

I guess I don't see it that way. IMO, nothing in TFA diverges significantly from the world built in Episodes 1 through 6, unless one ascribes more black-and-white limitations/definitions to most of the world's "rules". In fact, we could hark back to Episode I and just assume Rey has a ton more midichlorians than either Anakin or Luke as a way to explain her early facility with the Force.

Which is ironic, because IMO the introduction of midichlorians in Episode I did exactly the thing about which you are complaining, essentially erasing the mystery of the Force as introduced in Episodes IV & V. All Abrams has done is return us to that mystery state, which actually makes some logical sense in a post-Jedi Academy universe.


Yoda & Kenobi were quite clear when describing the Force (at least in IV & V), that it was a mysterious force that flowed through every living thing. I think the plot point that TFA is making, and that I actually enjoyed, was the idea that after a period of relative dormancy, the Force is "waking back up" and rousing those with the natural talent/inclination/ability to use it.

That opens up all sorts of possibilities, which both a) will make the other movies even more intriguing and b) doesn't, IMO, significant detract from the mythos as established in IV through VI.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Which is ironic, because IMO the introduction of midichlorians in Episode I did exactly the thing about which you are complaining, essentially erasing the mystery of the Force as introduced in Episodes IV & V.

Which, if you'll recall, was pilloried all over the place. Decried by just about everyone.

[flere-imsaho]

I certainly recall that. My point is that Abrams is taking us away from that shambolic mess by setting up a universe with less hard-and-fast rules, and I expect those stories will be, as a result, more creative and fun.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I certainly recall that. My point is that Abrams is taking us away from that shambolic mess by setting up a universe with less hard-and-fast rules, and I expect those stories will be, as a result, more creative and fun.

Well, they certainly got off to a poor start in the 'creative' attribute . Then again, it is Abrams who is decidedly known for his derivativeness. Thankfully his role in the movies is basically done (he's just a producer for 8 and 9).

[flere-imsaho]

I thought it was plenty creative, to be honest. I get what Brian's saying about it not taking off in a completely different direction but, as I said before, this needed to be the film that set up the others. I guess we'll know in a few years how creative it'll get.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Molson

But then you also complain about anything that's not done the exact same way as it was in the previous movies. You're not giving the saga and the Star Wars world the chance to evolve. You're deriving rules from the original movies that were never spelled out, applying them to new characters and new stories, and complaining when they don't fit.

Except that's not what I've done at all. First of all, the only things I complained about were spelled out, as a I showed. Also as I stated, there are a lot of things that I mentioned which are not the exact same way as the original movies and I am totally fine with. Nothing I said prevents the story evolving, but there's a difference between the story advancing and changing fundamental parts of the Star Wars universe. A rather massive difference.

[Dutch]

Lets not forget that JJ Abrams is a rookie at Star Wars. The mere fact that I did not have to endure JarJar Binks is enough to get me to go back for round 2. As far as I'm concerned, the man is a genius. Although, that Harry Potter looking dork better get his act together in the next movie if he plans on being Darth Vader v2.

[BillJasper]

I think Dutch was referring to Kylo Ren.

[NobodyHere]

I like how BillJasper's sig has a new meaning when viewing this thread :P

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I like how BillJasper's sig has a new meaning when viewing this thread :P

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I think Dutch was referring to Kylo Ren.

I dont know their names yet...I have no idea...I think so...maybe?

[booradley]

Originally Posted by chinaski

Saw it last night, completely underwhelmed. That was some piss poor basic fanboy writing. Im boggled by the amazing reviews of the movie. Just an overly polished version of the original. Pretty bummed out about it, im a massive Star Wars fan too.

In all honesty, don't you think a bunch of those amazing reviews were paid for? I mean, with the huge investment in this franchise, Disney had to do everything it could to make sure it got off to a hot start.

I didn't care for this movie because I felt it was just an attempt to mash together as many plot devices/scenes as possible from the original trilogy for merchandising purposes. Guess I'm just too old and jaded to appreciate this stuff anymore, but I knew that going in ...

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Although, that Harry Potter looking dork better get his act together in the next movie if he plans on being Darth Vader v2.

I think that was maybe my favourite part of the movie - it took the 3rd movie to make Darth Vader look like anything other than 'stereotypical bad guy', where as the evil/good struggle for Kylo Ren was the first film in the new Star Wars.

As much as I loved both Finn and Rey, Kylo was probably my favourite character of ep 7. He was everything that Annakin should have been, but wasn't.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by booradley

In all honesty, don't you think a bunch of those amazing reviews were paid for? I mean, with the huge investment in this franchise, Disney had to do everything it could to make sure it got off to a hot start.

In "real life" I've spoken to a lot of people who have seen this film. I honestly haven't heard even one negative complaint outside of 'I wish X happened a little differently, but I still thought it was an awesome film'. I think that's a lot less to do with Disney bribes than it is to do with the fact that it was a pretty darn entertaining movie.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

He was everything that Annakin should have been, but wasn't.

+1

Although Rey was my favorite character.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think that was maybe my favourite part of the movie - it took the 3rd movie to make Darth Vader look like anything other than 'stereotypical bad guy', where as the evil/good struggle for Kylo Ren was the first film in the new Star Wars.

As much as I loved both Finn and Rey, Kylo was probably my favourite character of ep 7. He was everything that Annakin should have been, but wasn't.

When he took off his mask, the first thing I thought was "is his hair permed?".

I would have picked someone else or at least make him look less ... er, dorkish?

Looks aside, I enjoyed his acting with Han just before the patricide.