OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Sorry to run against the stream chaps ... but on the strength of the comments here I got the books.

I'm currently wading my way through them, the ideas are great but for me something is missing from the series - I think its the fact that he's weaving so many concurrent threads that its hard to get attached to the characters involved.

The first book wasn't as bad because it was focused heavily around the Stark family, but by book three there must be around 12 seperate threads weaving and while this is clever and interesting and all ... it just makes things confusing for me.

Even Tolkein who loved to be intricate kept things to a relatively small group of characters and ensured that they kept together in reasonably large groups instead of heading off seperately (and worse still then meeting someone who 'turns' into another main character who then seperates from them).

As such the books are 'readable' enough and I'll undoubtably read them all (mainly because I've got this far so I want to see how it ends) and I do think it'd make a cool strategy computer game

Well, if he stuck to a relatively small group of main characters, then I'm afraid there would not be much to write about

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, the series would be done fairly quickly that way .

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

You guys are harsh. Writing a book is hard. If people had pre-ordered I'd get the angst.

The thing that still stands out to me is that Storm came out when Clinton was president, and Feast came out in Bush's second term. Wow...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It certainly could be boredom, but I think it's just a case of something that's become difficult. If I'm at work and have a long, difficult project that I know will take a lot of energy and time to finish, I much more apt to turn to smaller, less important and less difficult things in an effort to remain productive while putting off the challenge.

Martin has never had anything near this big. This is his magnum opus. The pressure has to be intense.

I will agree with this. This exact thing just happened to me. Had to write a title report for a large tract of land, and I had to review public records going back to the 19th century. Huge pain the butt, with lots of little curve balls to make it more difficult throughout.

I finally finished it today, and I have been working on it for a month (these reports usually take a work week, all told, and that's not just me, that's our entire process). It would have been done a week or two ago, but, frankly, I kept getting handed smaller files to run through, and it was almost a relief to grab them and run through them before getting back to the big one.

So in that respect, I definitely see where Martin is coming from there.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I am not filled with angst over this. I am not upset at all really. I'd prefer to have the books, but oh well...

+1

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think the speculation that Martin got bored of the series after Book 3 may have some weight

I agree with Chief Rum & Honolulu_Blue that I don't think it's boredom so much as the enormity of the task. I think the first few books he was still finding his way and a lot of it was new and interesting. By now he may really have a good idea of how it's going to end, and he's looking at having to write everything in between to get there. That's daunting.

[ISiddiqui]

While it may be daunting, reading his blog, it seems like he's been taking on a load of side projects at the same time.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

While it may be daunting, reading his blog, it seems like he's been taking on a load of side projects at the same time.

Everyone does this when they procrastinate, though. And that's what I think he's doing, and he's doing it because of the enormity of the task (i.e. it's daunting).

I sympathize with him, and I'll be happy to get what I get in book form, whenever.

[sachmo71]

Maybe he saw how quickly everyone turned on Jordan, and how quickly his work went downhill, and doesn't want to repeat that.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Sorry to run against the stream chaps ... but on the strength of the comments here I got the books.

I'm currently wading my way through them, the ideas are great but for me something is missing from the series - I think its the fact that he's weaving so many concurrent threads that its hard to get attached to the characters involved.

The first book wasn't as bad because it was focused heavily around the Stark family, but by book three there must be around 12 seperate threads weaving and while this is clever and interesting and all ... it just makes things confusing for me.

Even Tolkein who loved to be intricate kept things to a relatively small group of characters and ensured that they kept together in reasonably large groups instead of heading off seperately (and worse still then meeting someone who 'turns' into another main character who then seperates from them).

As such the books are 'readable' enough and I'll undoubtably read them all (mainly because I've got this far so I want to see how it ends) and I do think it'd make a cool strategy computer game

+1

I think I've expressed a similar view somewhere in this thread. Too many characters with too many storylines. It becomes very hard to move the overall plot when you can only toss 3-4 chapters in an 800 page book to each of the main characters.

I think GRRM does know how it will end, in that he knows who will wear the crown(s) and what will happen to many of the characters. And I also agree with those that are saying that he is a little sick of his own work.

[Arctic Blast]

Originally Posted by molson

You guys are harsh. Writing a book is hard. If people had pre-ordered I'd get the angst.

Well, yeah, when the guy says "Hey, the next one is half written, and should be out quick", and yet is hasn't appeared, AND the guy has written 2 OTHER books that are totally unrelated, it's a little annoying.

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

+1

I think I've expressed a similar view somewhere in this thread. Too many characters with too many storylines. It becomes very hard to move the overall plot when you can only toss 3-4 chapters in an 800 page book to each of the main characters.

I think GRRM does know how it will end, in that he knows who will wear the crown(s) and what will happen to many of the characters. And I also agree with those that are saying that he is a little sick of his own work.

My thoughts were just the opposite. Each time I'd finish one of the books I'd think back to how things were at the start and be amazed at just how much transpired. Davos in A Clash of Kings is the only character I can think of that had as few as 3-4 chapters. The main characters would have up to 3 at a time during specific events... like Arya at the Red Wedding or Tyrion and Sansa at Joffrey's wedding.

I do think it was a bit frustrating at those moments, though, after something big would happen. I'd want to read about the aftermath and such, but ithe story would suddenly switch characters and move thousands of miles away. For instance, not knowing Ned's fate after Joffrey/Cersei seized the throne, killed all his men, and stuck a spear at his back. It was hard to switch focus to other characters with that still unresolved. But ultimately that made me want to keep reading even more in order to get to whatever chapter the secret would be divulged. Though usually I'd get so caught up in the subsequent chapters that I would forget I was even trying to get to that point.

I'm not sure if I really explained it well, but that effect was one of my favorites aspects of the series.

[ISiddiqui]

Same with me. Martin has this brilliant method of leaving you with a cliffhanger that makes you want to see what happens next and then abruptly switching away... and then leaving that story with a cliffhanger that makes you want to see what happens next. Instead of one main story that you really want to know about and the rest all filler, Martin juggles a number of stories that you really want to find out more about.

I remember when Martin said Feast for Crows wouldn't have Tyrion's or Dany's or Jon's story and the anguish (though most understood) about not being able to follow those stories.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

+1

I think I've expressed a similar view somewhere in this thread. Too many characters with too many storylines. It becomes very hard to move the overall plot when you can only toss 3-4 chapters in an 800 page book to each of the main characters.

I think GRRM does know how it will end, in that he knows who will wear the crown(s) and what will happen to many of the characters. And I also agree with those that are saying that he is a little sick of his own work.

As a huge fan of the series, I obviously don't mind this at all. I've read/listened to each book in the series at least 3 times. I love the complexity of it all. Each time I read through a book, I pick up on something that I missed before, some small plot device, a character who showed up later, a character who's related toanother. It just feels like such a rich, deep and complete world. Not only are there dozens upon dozens upon dozens of characters in the present, you also have all of these characters, some of which have been long dead, who seem as deep and three dimensional as any "main character" in your standard fantasy novel.

Another thing I like about having so many characters is that it's really hard, for me at least, to figure out how they all fit into the grand scheme. Other than Dany and Jon, I really have no clue what role Jamie, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Davos, Tyrion, etc. will eventually end up playing. Unlike your typical fantasy fare with your small group of heroes, the fates and destines of these characters just is not that clear.

I just eat this stuff up.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Same with me. Martin has this brilliant method of leaving you with a cliffhanger that makes you want to see what happens next and then abruptly switching away... and then leaving that story with a cliffhanger that makes you want to see what happens next. Instead of one main story that you really want to know about and the rest all filler, Martin juggles a number of stories that you really want to find out more about.

I remember when Martin said Feast for Crows wouldn't have Tyrion's or Dany's or Jon's story and the anguish (though most understood) about not being able to follow those stories.

The cliffhanger is a pretty standard plot device used in a lot of media, although I would agree that Martin uses it effectively.

SOME story juggling is great. But I don't care a bit about several characters, and would gladly trade you some Sansa and Arya chapters for more Tyrion or other characters I find to be far more interesting. Aren't multiple Greyjoy storylines a little superfluous? Like a "play within a play," I only have so much patience with a minor power struggle when the greater power struggle is supposed to be the point of the series.

Obviously, Martin's schizophrenia has great appeal to a number of readers out there. Ultimately, though, I believe this problem will lead to a series that has an unsatisfying conclusion.

But, like Marc, I'll be there at the end just like the rest of you palookas.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

The cliffhanger is a pretty standard plot device used in a lot of media, although I would agree that Martin uses it effectively.

My point wasn't that Martin uses cliffhangers effectively, but that he uses cliffhangers effectively in multiple story lines, instead of just one or two.

SOME story juggling is great. But I don't care a bit about several characters, and would gladly trade you some Sansa and Arya chapters for more Tyrion or other characters I find to be far more interesting. Aren't multiple Greyjoy storylines a little superfluous? Like a "play within a play," I only have so much patience with a minor power struggle when the greater power struggle is supposed to be the point of the series.

Oh. I kind of like the fact that the greater power struggle has the minor story lines intersperced. Mostly because, the Sansa story is going to be HUGE! And because I love seeing Littlefinger scheme. I also have a feeling that Arya is going to be playing a big part too.

And I do like all the Greyjoys and their different personalities and the power struggle among them. It makes it kind of like an actual history. There is a "main theme" but that doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't move forward. Martin shows you what is going on with the rest of the world. I was very intrigued by the Greyjoy story arc and the different society they've built... and of course it was integral to control of the North... which may be important in Book 6 and 7 for a certain reason .

[chesapeake]

I'd argue that constantly using cliffhangers ends up becoming formulaic; but, hey, it's not like we're discussing Shakespeare and Tolstoy here.

I'm not saying that the minor storylines are all uninteresting; but I am saying that they become excessive.

The events leading up to the death of Dain Ironfoot, who died defending the body of King Brand of Dale during the War of the Ring, were probably quite fascinating. But I can't tell you how glad I am that Tolkein chose not to include this story in the LotR.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

The events leading up to the death of Dain Ironfoot, who died defending the body of King Brand of Dale during the War of the Ring, were probably quite fascinating. But I can't tell you how glad I am that Tolkein chose not to include this story in the LotR.

Yes, because I am so much happier that he decided to include all of those jaunty tunes instead.

[Fidatelo]

ASoIaF > LotR

That said, there are a couple too many ongoing plots. Each time a new book comes out I spend the first half of it trying to remember who the hell everyone is.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yes, because I am so much happier that he decided to include all of those jaunty tunes instead.

LOL!

I guess to each his own. I love the background stuff of the Iron Islands in a Feast for Crows. It was just fascinating to see the power struggle and their attempts to pick the next leader. I also love (which is also a background story, though has directly impacted the main on a number of occasions) Stannis Baratheon and his Melisandre.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Of course, I think A Storm of Swords was as many words as the first 3 or 4 Harry Potter books.

In case anyone wasn't sure, this was not an exaggeration. According to the Amazon text stats, A Storm of Swords is a 425,000 word book, which is just unbelievably long. As a comparison books like Fight Club, Fahrenheit 451 and Slaughterhouse Five are under 50,000. The first 4 Harry Potter books tally up to a hair under 460,000. Only one HP book, Order of the Phoenix, is over half the length of ASOS, at 250k.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Here is the latest from Martin on the potential HBO series:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/

The latest news on HBO front is that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have turned in the second draft of the pilot script for A GAME OF THRONES, and their rewrite is presently being read and evaluated by the powers-that-be at HBO. In other words, it's the normal process, which is long and often slow. So far, the reports are good, and HBO seems to like what they're seeing... but no, there's no greenlight yet, A GAME OF THRONES remains a script in development, not a series in production.

The one hard bit of news is that HBO has reached agreement with the BBC for them to come in as a partner on the series... IF it goes ahead. That's very cool news, and I'm excited and pleased to have the BBC involved... but even so, we're still in the crossed fingers stage here, not the shooting-off-fireworks stage.

I get emails about the HBO adaptation of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE almost daily, by the way, so let me say a few words about that.

Look, guys and girls, I appreciate all the enthusiasm and interest, but please stop sending me your resumes, your head shots, your audition tapes. We're not hiring anyone as yet. We won't be hiring anyone for some time, most likely. And should that day arrive when the show gets the greenlight and we start looking for a cast and crew, it won't be me doing the hiring and casting. I'll visit the set from time to time, I'm sure (how often may depend on whether we're shooting in Ireland, the Czech Republic, New Zealand, Rumania, or wherever), but the final decisions on these matters will be made by HBO, the BBC, the showrunners, and the director. I can't help you. Especially if you're not actually professionally involved in film and television, but are still "desperate to be involved in the show in any capacity, even just standing around in the background." I get a lot of those emails too. Those people who stand around in the background are called "extras," for what it's worth, and I'm not in charge of hiring them either. Again, we thank you for the love, but that's not how television works.

I also get a constant stream of emails asking me for news about the HBO project. Guys, that's why I have a News page on my website, and that's why I post here. When there's some news to share, I share it. Honest. No news is no news. Sometimes long periods pass when nothing is happening, or things are happening behind the scenes that even I am not aware of. Whenever there is a significant development -- like the BBC coming aboard -- I will post it here. I'm not going to try to disseminate it in individual emails to whoever happens to write that day to ask what's new with HBO.

Thanks for your patience. Thanks for your understanding. Keep your fingers crossed.

[ISiddiqui]

please stop sending me your resumes, your head shots, your audition tapes

I love that people are trying to get GRRM to get them a part on the show. That's hilarious!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Least. Surprising. News. Ever.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/

Well, I've made it across the ocean safe and sound. Typing this from an internet cafe.

No, I didn't finish the novel, though not for want of trying. Nothing to be done about that but push on when I return.

Ah well...

[flere-imsaho]

LOL

[Zelig]

I guess you get sick of fans after awhile. At least it comes across that way.

I know Tom Mix felt this way.

[flere-imsaho]

I think GRRM may be striking a blow for every writer who felt pressured by his/her fans to produce more stuff, faster.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Zelig

I guess you get sick of fans after awhile. At least it comes across that way.

I know Tom Mix felt this way.

Who?

[Bad-example]

Tom Mix...middle name Collins.

[Coder]

was just at Amazon.co.uk and figured I'd swing by the A Dance with Dragons title to see what's up..

this has now been added:

From the publishers:
"George R R Martin has let us know that he will be later than expected delivering A Dance with Dragons, so we're sorry to say that we've had to postpone publication. Based on the new delivery date, we are very much hoping to be able to publish in Spring 2009. Thanks for your patience!"

Amazon lists April as the release month.

[ISiddiqui]

LOL

What a shock!

[DaddyTorgo]

least. surprising. news. ever.

[Honolulu_Blue]

A bit of good news

http://grrm.livejournal.com/

I have some exciting news to share.

(But please, guys and gals, don't get TOO excited. This is what it is, and so far that's all it is, so don't make any assumptions).

HBO has just exercised its option, and purchased the television rights to A GAME OF THRONES.

For those of you who don't know Hollywood, an option gives a production company the right to buy a property (a book, a screenplay, whatever) at a certain agreed-upon price for a certain period of time (a year, six months, whatever). When that time runs out, they can let the option lapse, renew the option, or exercise the option and buy the property. The last is what HBO has just done.

What they have NOT done is greenlight the project. A GAME OF THRONES remains in development. They're still budgeting, still looking at locations (Spain and the Czech Republic at present, I hear). No decision has been reached, so any celebration would be premature. In Hollywood it is always best not to assume something is going to happen until it actually happens.

Even so... this is a very encouraging sign, and one that suggests a continued high level of enthusiasm and commitment for A GAME OF THRONES at HBO.

So keep your fingers crossed.

[terpkristin]

That is indeed cool news, HB, but really, I can't get excited about much ASOIAF stuff until he releases the next book...and those that are to follow, it, too.

I mean, seriously. I love that he loves his fans. I love that he takes what he's doing so seriously that he wants to make it PERFECT. But he's not exactly a spring chicken, and never appears to me to be one in the greatest of health...

/tk

[ISiddiqui]

HBO should greenlight it, seeing as how its original programming dramas in the future is looking bleak (while I do like "Big Love" and "True Blood" looks interesting, it isn't like we have a "Deadwood" or "Sopranos" around)

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Maybe he saw how quickly everyone turned on Jordan, and how quickly his work went downhill, and doesn't want to repeat that.

Just scanning this thread, I'm seeing pretty much the exact complaints that were mentioned about The Wheel of Time series. It got over bloated and I started to lose track of various things. Considering how I got lost in The Stand, I thought I was doing rather well for how far I got into The Wheel of Time series before that started to happen. But it did happen. I had also falsely heard a well known author got deep into a series and then died. It become my fear with the Wheel of Time series and since that series was becoming a long winded mess, I figured I would hold off on the Song of Fire and Ice series until it was done.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Just scanning this thread, I'm seeing pretty much the exact complaints that were mentioned about The Wheel of Time series. It got over bloated and I started to lose track of various things. Considering how I got lost in The Stand, I thought I was doing rather well for how far I got into The Wheel of Time series before that started to happen. But it did happen. I had also falsely heard a well known author got deep into a series and then died. It become my fear with the Wheel of Time series and since that series was becoming a long winded mess, I figured I would hold off on the Song of Fire and Ice series until it was done.

I am not sure that is exactly what's happening here.

But if you got lost in The Stand, you will be utterly confused in this series. It's a cast of thousands. I've read each book at least 3 times and I still pick up new things I missed or connections I didn't get.

[Senator]

Everytime I see this thread updated, I think someone is going to say he died.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Senator

Everytime I see this thread updated, I think someone is going to say he died.

Maybe we should all make a pact then to promise to start a new thread when that unfortunate incident happens.

[JeeberD]

Bite your tongue, Sen!

[ISiddiqui]

Same here... either that or another release date that is going to get ignored.

[Senator]

I don't even know how old he is, but for some reason there is the thread of fear going through the supporters of this series. Maybe Wheel of Time made some of us this way.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Senator

I don't even know how old he is, but for some reason there is the thread of fear going through the supporters of this series. Maybe Wheel of Time made some of us this way.

Martin isn't very young and has had health issues in the past.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Senator

I don't even know how old he is, but for some reason there is the thread of fear going through the supporters of this series. Maybe Wheel of Time made some of us this way.

He was born in 1948 so he is 60 years old.

[GrantDawg]

I'm afraid at this point that I might die of old age before the next book comes out.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Galaril

He was born in 1948 so he is 60 years old.

he doesn't look all that healthy, tho.

[Blade]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

he doesn't look all that healthy, tho.

I actually met him at a book signing a few years back...all I can say is he does not look very healthy in the least, and I was a bit scared he would die of a heart attack while at the signing...

[Grammaticus]

If the series goes live, then Martin may actually have the motivation he needs to finish it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Awesome!

Not A Blog
Huge, Huge News

HBO has given the production order.

They will be filming the pilot episode of A GAME OF THRONES.

It's just the pilot so far. They'll need to see that before they decide whether to proceed with a full season's episodes. So let's all hope the pilot will kick serious ass.

It should. David Benioff and Dan Weiss did a terrific job with the script. And yes, all of you can relax, it's very faithful. Dan and David will be the executive producers for the pilot and (we hope) the eventual series.

More details when I have 'em. The news is very fresh. HBO just issued their own press release, which should be up on their website soon, if it's not there already.

Winter is coming to HBO. Hot damn.

[ISiddiqui]

Damn you! I thought this was another (to breeze by) release date had been set!

[3ric]

Maybe there should be a separate thread for news related to the HBO show.