Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[Edward64]

No idea how legit the anonymous source is but assume some credibility since it's reported on timesofisrael.

Just a moment...

Reports citing anonymous Israeli officials in both AP and AFP say that the IDF believes the overall Gaza death toll claimed by Hamas is fairly accurate, and that more civilians have been killed than Hamas operatives. The comments appeared to emerge from an off-record briefing for foreign journalists conducted by military officials.

An unnamed IDF official cited by AP says that at least 15,000 Palestinians in Gaza have died since the outbreak of the war on October 7. The army says it estimates more than 5,000 of the Gaza deaths to be Hamas terrorists.

AFP quotes an unnamed Israeli official: “I’m not saying it’s not bad that we have a ratio of two to one,” noting that the use of human shields was part of Hamas’s “core strategy.”

“Hopefully, [the ratio] will be much lower” in the coming phase of the war, the official adds, noting that “in the south, because we have basically doubled the population, operations are much more precise.”

[CrimsonFox]

geeez there are THAT MANY hamas? how do they know that. wow.

Is there a registered club or something? Do they have smiley buttons that they wear?

[GrantDawg]

Hamas has an army that is somewhere between 20k to 45k, depending on the source. Around 25k would be considered well trained. That does not count volunteers that have joined since the attack. Probably another tens of thousands have been handed weapons and told to shoot at the other guys.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Their definition of who is Hamas or not is also very broad. They've accused the Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, World Health Organization, UN workers, journalists, and children of being Hamas. Some in the government consider anyone in Gaza as fair game. Heck, we have people who think half the college campuses in America are pro-Hamas.

The death numbers seem mostly in line with what independent agencies have cited (Euro-Med montitor has it well over 20,000). And I don't think it includes the last day or two which has seen massive casualties as they obliterated a residential block.

But we won't know the full extent for a while. There are so many bodies buried under rubble or just turned to dust. Limited access to water, food, and health care will pile up the bodies too. They're finding mass graves in neighborhoods. Reporting has been tough since journalists are targeted for execution, and I believe they've cut off all communication in the strip again. So we likely won't get a clear picture until the conflict is over or independent reporters are allowed to safely access the strip.

[Edward64]

Interesting tactic.

Just a moment...

Israel has readied plans to flood Hamas’s system of tunnels under the Gaza Strip with water pumped from the Mediterranean Sea, the Wall Street Journal reports.

Citing US officials, the report says the Israel Defense Forces last month set up five large water pumps near the al-Shati refugee camp in Gaza City, which are capable of flooding the subterranean network within weeks by pumping thousands of cubic meters of water per hour into the tunnels.

[RainMaker]

A double amputee toddler his limbs in a box, a burned child screaming for his mum-he doesn't know is dead- as there's no pain relief, an 8-yr-old his brain exposed. @ICRC surgeon describes treating the wounded in Israel's assault on Khan Younis, Gaza�� https://t.co/ffPLJY0SWZ

— Bel Trew (@Beltrew) December 7, 2023

[RainMaker]

Likely inevitable given his outspoken voice.

Israel killed Prof. Refaat al-Areer, one of Gaza's most prominent writers, poets & activists who spent his life trying to get Gaza's voice to the outside world.

He was killed in a targeted airstrike on his sister's home that also killed his brother, sister & her 4 kids... pic.twitter.com/kA16fkb6Mg
— Muhammad Shehada (@muhammadshehad2) December 7, 2023

[Edward64]

War is hell ... you've escaped your captors and get killed by your own side while holding a white flag. Some pretty bad finger discipline and those soldiers should be disciplined.

Doesn't change the situation but would like to know if the soldiers were just conscripted or already in the army on Oct 7.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-...-23/index.html

The three Israeli hostages who were killed Friday by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers in Gaza were shirtless and waving a white flag when they were shot, an IDF official said Saturday, calling the killings a “tragic, tragic event” and a violation of IDF rules of engagement.

The three men came out of a building “tens of meters from our soldiers’ position,” the official said. At least one of the soldiers “feels threatened and opens fire. Two are killed immediately. One is wounded and runs back inside. The soldiers hear a cry for help in Hebrew and the brigade commander issues a cease fire order but there is another burst of fire.”

The third hostage died later. It is not clear if the second burst of fire killed him, or which of the three it was.

More than one IDF soldier fired at the hostages, the official told CNN after briefing journalists.

[RainMaker]

Whatever you do, don't look up the bulldozer videos.

��Breaking: Israel raids Al-Awda Hospital, the last operational hospital in northern Gaza, arresting medical staff and demolishing buildings. Injured victims bleed on the streets, dozens reported dead amid media blackout.

— Ramy Abdu| رامي عبده (@RamAbdu) December 17, 2023

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Whatever you do, don't look up the bulldozer videos.

��Breaking: Israel raids Al-Awda Hospital, the last operational hospital in northern Gaza, arresting medical staff and demolishing buildings. Injured victims bleed on the streets, dozens reported dead amid media blackout.

— Ramy Abdu| رامي عبده (@RamAbdu) December 17, 2023

re: bulldozer burying Palestinians, likely fake news.

This video does not show Israel bulldozing Palestinians at Kamal Adwan Hospital in Gaza - Truth or Fake

But at the same hospital ...

Just a moment...

The director of Gaza’s Kamal Adwan hospital in Jabaliya reveals in a Shin Bet interrogation that his northern Gaza hospital was turned into a military facility under Hamas’s control and that at one point it housed a kidnapped soldier.

In footage published on Tuesday by the Shin Bet and IDF, hospital director Ahmed Kahlot tells Israeli forces that Hamas had offices inside the hospital and used it as a base for operational activity.

According to Kahlot, who himself has been a lieutenant colonel in Hamas since 2010, some 16 members of the hospital’s staff – including doctors, nurses and paramedics – are also Hamas operatives who serve in the al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the terror organization.

EDIT:

Okay, with USA Today doing the fact check, let's just call it another too quick to believe, Twitterverse fake news.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...k/71971932007/

Our rating: False
The video is unrelated to the ongoing Israel-Hamas conflict. It was filmed during the Rabaa massacre in Egypt in 2013.

[Edward64]

Carefully worded.

So, guess it's not genocide (yet) as defined by the ICJ.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-...-24/index.html

The International Court of Justice said it has jurisdiction over the dispute between South Africa and Israel, over whether Israel’s actions in Gaza could amount to genocide.

“In the court's view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa, to have been committed by Israel in Gaza, appear to be capable of falling within the provisions” of the genocide convention, judge Joan Donoghue said.

Donoghue said the court had rejected Israel’s request to remove the case.

[GrantDawg]

Didn't call for a ceasefire, but didn't rule out it could possibility be or become a genocide. It is one of those "eyes of the beholder" rulings were both sides are trying to claim victory.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Didn't call for a ceasefire, but didn't rule out it could possibility be or become a genocide. It is one of those "eyes of the beholder" rulings were both sides are trying to claim victory.

Agree.

A definitive ruling either way would have full of (increased) finger pointing, denials, accusations etc.

[Edward64]

A surprise the UN actually did something about it. They should also toss some of the teachers that teach the more radical stuff to young kids.

No problem with UNWRA continuing their work, but they shouldn't do it under the UN banner ... maybe the Red Crescent or some Arab League. Maybe the US and much of the western world would take the UN more seriously.

Israel attacks: UNRWA head fires staff members allegedly involved in October 7 | CNN

UN agency fires staff members allegedly involved in October 7 attacks

The UN relief agency operating in Gaza said Friday that Israel had accused some of its staff of being involved in the October 7 attacks, and that their contracts would be “immediately” terminated.

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini said Israeli authorities provided the agency “with information” alleging several of its employees participated in Hamas’ murderous rampage into southern Israel, when the militant group killed at least 1,200 people and abducted more than 250 others.

[Edward64]

Continuation from Biden thread starting at #9227 - 9250.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - The Biden Presidency - 2020

[RainMaker]

You could leave this in the Biden thread too. The genocide is a huge part of his Presidency and will likely cost him the election.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Because there is Hamas in the West Bank. And the tensions in Gaza spills over into West Bank.

This is not a region with Hamas. It's a relatively nice neighborhood. Settlers want the land and homes so they go into those neighborhoods and terrorize the residents. This leads to lots of murders.

This has been happening long before October 7th. You can read about settler murders happening constantly before that date. I know you're just learning about this stuff, but it's been going on for awhile.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not my point? Israel is justified in using force for self-defense.

Arguably, it is now excessive force. But not right after Oct 7.

But you're a pacifist? Would you let people come into your house and hurt your loved ones without a response?

Israel has been in the Palestinian's house for 75 years. They've locked 2 million people in a concentration camp for over a decade. Aren't they justified in using self-defense too? Or is there a skin color chart to determine who has a right to self-defense and who doesn't?

[RainMaker]

Also, if someone breaks into your home, you don't have the right to kill everyone in your town just to be sure you got the intruder.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You could leave this in the Biden thread too. The genocide is a huge part of his Presidency and will likely cost him the election.

You've moved it into racism and IDF rather than Joe's support for the war. I mean, you have a chance to bring Joe into it but you still haven't answered my question ...

Did the IDF know he was an American?

If not, then an innocent American teenager wandering about in an active warzone that is in month 4 and you expect the US government to do what exactly?

re: genocide, pretty sure ICJ said it wasn't (yet, at least). Yes, it will make re-election harder. And it'll be fascinating to see the day(s) after Trump gets into the WH and what he does. But you'll blame it on Joe and not accept your own accountability helping Trump by not voting for Joe.

This is not a region with Hamas. It's a relatively nice neighborhood. Settlers want the land and homes so they go into those neighborhoods and terrorize the residents. This leads to lots of murders.

The city is in Area A & B. It may be a nice neighborhood, but I suspect tensions are high all around. There's been fights in Westbank areas. But, I have no problem believing IDF or settlers killed the kid. But if he wasn't knowingly killed because he was an American, that makes a difference from the US perspective.

This has been happening long before October 7th. You can read about settler murders happening constantly before that date. I know you're just learning about this stuff, but it's been going on for awhile.

I think I addressed this in previous post

I'll pick up a book after you read up on JDAM acoustics and flare "guided missiles".

Israel has been in the Palestinian's house for 75 years. They've locked 2 million people in a concentration camp for over a decade.

And I guess the Palestinians have been in the Israeli "house/land" for how long prior to the 75 years? It's easy to identify who is right or wrong depending on the point of time you want to start the discussion. It's certainly not as easy as you make it out to be.

re: locked 2M people in a concentration camp, because I like doing both sides, let's not forget the Egyptians and Jordanians were part of the recent equation.

Aren't they justified in using self-defense too?

Yes, they are justified to use self-defense too. No problem in a mano-v-mano. Just don't punch me the face and when I punch back, you yell "bully".

Or is there a skin color chart to determine who has a right to self-defense and who doesn't?

You see, this is why I think this is better in this thread. It always comes back to skin color with you.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Also, if someone breaks into your home, you don't have the right to kill everyone in your town just to be sure you got the intruder.

If someone kills/rapes my family member, then runs away and is hidden by his family ...

Yeah, those family members will get hurt if they get in the way when I come calling.

But back to my question ...

But you're a pacifist? Would you let people come into your house and hurt your loved ones without a response?

[RainMaker]

So you support collective punishment. A literal war crime.

And I'm not a pacifist. I am against genocide and the slaughter of innocent civilians. Something I think everyone should oppose. I don't think my tax dollars should support that or any ethnostate. I am opposed to my tax dollars going to Hamas as well.

If someone came in my home and harmed me, I would be fine with going after them. I don't believe I have the right to murder everyone in the vicinity of them to do so (neither do any domestic or international laws). But I also wouldn't have imprisoned that person on a 22-mile stretch of land for over a decade. Or spent the last 75 years stealing their land and terrorizing them. That tends to anger people and create blowback.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You see, this is why I think this is better in this thread. It always comes back to skin color with you.

So what's the reason? Israel has committed far more terrorism over the past few decades than Palestinians. The civilian death toll is incredibly lopsided. We have forced imprisonment, forced sterilization, and torture too.

If it's not about ethnicity, what is it about? Religion?

Originally Posted by Edward64

The city is in Area A & B. It may be a nice neighborhood, but I suspect tensions are high all around. There's been fights in Westbank areas. But, I have no problem believing IDF or settlers killed the kid. But if he wasn't knowingly killed because he was an American, that makes a difference from the US perspective.

Tensions are high because settlers are coming into Palestinian neighborhoods and terrorizing them. This has been going on for a long time. Do you know what would stop that tension? Not killing Palestinians so some settlers can steal their homes. Fuck, even Biden told Israel to knock that shit off and he's about as cucked as you can get for a country. I don't know how you still support that.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yes, they are justified to use self-defense too. No problem in a mano-v-mano. Just don't punch me the face and when I punch back, you yell "bully".

That's not what they're doing. They basically imprisoned Palestinians for over a decade, got punched in the face by a small group of them, then decided to kill innocent people who had nothing to do with it in retaliation.

Collective punishment is a war crime. If they want to root out Hamas (a group Israel has supported), fine. But you don't get to kill a bunch of innocent civilians because they share the same skin color.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So you support collective punishment. A literal war crime.

So you support indiscriminate rocket attacks, a literal war crime?

The 7 October attack included at least 3,000 rockets aimed toward Israel, with over 8000 being fired since the war began.[77][78] The rockets hit as far away as Tel Aviv and the outskirts of Jerusalem.[79] Human Rights Watch termed the rocket attacks as indiscriminate.[13][80] These have included repeated direct strikes on medical facilities, such as the Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon, including pediatric facilities at the Child Development Institute.[81] Human right organizations and scholars have condemned indiscriminate rocket attacks as a war crime.[80][82]

And, of course, for more raw evidence of Hamas war crimes ...

Spoiler

2nd chance

Spoiler

https://www.memri.org/reports/special-announcement-%E2%80%93-hamas-atrocities-documentation-center-hadc

Let's be honest here. Both sides are guilty of war crimes. No doubt. For a list, see our friend wiki.

War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

And I'm not a pacifist. I am against genocide and the slaughter of innocent civilians. Something I think everyone should oppose.

Yes, indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians is a bad thing. "Both sides" have clearly done this.

I don't think my tax dollars should support that or any ethnostate.

I don't have an opinion but would be interested in getting into this discussion. I've seen "ethnostate" tossed around and by wiki's definition, the definition seems very broad and could apply to the US, western Europe, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, China, India etc. But then the nuance is probably something like socialism vs democratic socialism.

So, provide a reputable link (e.g. not twitter or tiktok) and highlight if you want to get into a discussion. Otherwise, I'll assume it's just one of those fancy word-de-jour being tossed around.

Ethnocracy - Wikipedia

An ethnocracy is a type of political structure in which the state apparatus is controlled by a dominant ethnic group (or groups) to further its interests, power, dominance, and resources. Ethnocratic regimes in the modern era typically display a 'thin' democratic façade covering a more profound ethnic structure, in which ethnicity (race, religion, language etc) – and not citizenship – is the key to securing power and resources [1]

An ethnocratic society facilitates the ethnicization of the state by the dominant group, through the expansion of control likely accompanied by conflict with minorities or neighbouring states.

I am opposed to my tax dollars going to Hamas as well.

Does UNRWA fall under this?

If someone came in my home and harmed me, I would be fine with going after them. I don't believe I have the right to murder everyone in the vicinity of them to do so (neither do any domestic or international laws).

Someone comes into your home and harms you family. They kidnap your child and takes him away. You come looking and find out the kidnapper's family is aiding the kidnapper. If the kidnapper's family don't cooperate and tell me where the kidnapper is, you better believe I'm doing to do harm to the kidnapper's family to get my child back.

But I also wouldn't have imprisoned that person on a 22-mile stretch of land for over a decade. Or spent the last 75 years stealing their land and terrorizing them. That tends to anger people and create blowback.

Asked & answered earlier.

And I guess the Palestinians have been in the Israeli "house/land" for how long prior to the 75 years? It's easy to identify who is right or wrong depending on the point of time you want to start the discussion. It's certainly not as easy as you make it out to be.

re: locked 2M people in a concentration camp, because I like doing both sides, let's not forget the Egyptians and Jordanians were part of the recent equation.

I'd toss in the West Bank was doing relatively well and before Hamas/Gaza decided the spoil the party. Or that PA should have been better guests and not try to overthrow Jordan. Or that PA should have taken one of the numerous deals on the table etc. Lots of missed opportunities and blame on both sides.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So what's the reason? Israel has committed far more terrorism over the past few decades than Palestinians. The civilian death toll is incredibly lopsided.

Both sides have committed senseless acts and atrocities. By raw count, I can concede you are right. However, it's not from a lack of trying from PA (historically) and Hamas (currently). If Israel was weak and Hamas was strong, then the counts would go the other way.

Bottom-line. It's pretty clear cut that Hamas wants the destruction of Israel and the Jews.

Israel has provided plenty of evidence she is willing to live in peace with Palestinian people. It's definitely NOT under terms the Palestinian people would 100% like. However, it is much better than what Hamas would do to the Jews. Historically, the group with the bigger stick wins most fights and surrender terms.

We have forced imprisonment, forced sterilization, and torture too.

Provide a link, I'd like to read more. Is this specific to the Ethiopian migrants?

If it's not about ethnicity, what is it about? Religion?

Er no? Survival as a country and protection of her citizens.

Another piece of evidence that it all goes back to skin color as the root cause of all problems for you. Your default argument for all things.

Tensions are high because settlers are coming into Palestinian neighborhoods and terrorizing them. This has been going on for a long time. Do you know what would stop that tension? Not killing Palestinians so some settlers can steal their homes. Fuck, even Biden told Israel to knock that shit off and he's about as cucked as you can get for a country. I don't know how you still support that.

Tensions have always been there. Tensions are much, much higher now than recent past because of Oct 7.

I don't know how you can support the killing, raping & kidnapping of women, children and old people. Is it because it's okay to do it to the Jews?

That's not what they're doing. They basically imprisoned Palestinians for over a decade, got punched in the face by a small group of them, then decided to kill innocent people who had nothing to do with it in retaliation.

Asked and answered, see prior response.

Collective punishment is a war crime. If they want to root out Hamas (a group Israel has supported), fine. But you don't get to kill a bunch of innocent civilians because they share the same skin color.

Asked and answered, see prior response.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So you support indiscriminate rocket attacks, a literal war crime?

No. I don't support my tax dollars funding terrorists or war criminals. My tax dollars are not going to Hamas, nor do I want it to. My tax dollars are going to Israel. It's that fucking simple.

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't have an opinion but would be interested in getting into this discussion. I've seen "ethnostate" tossed around and by wiki's definition, the definition seems very broad and could apply to the US, western Europe, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, China, India etc. But then the nuance is probably something like socialism vs democratic socialism.

So, provide a reputable link (e.g. not twitter or tiktok) and highlight if you want to get into a discussion. Otherwise, I'll assume it's just one of those fancy word-de-jour being tossed around.

They openly admit it. They passed a fucking law a few years back expressing this sentiment.

This reminds me of Trump defenses when he proudly expresses something and people rush in to say that's not what he believes. You can take them at their word on this one man.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Someone comes into your home and harms you family. They kidnap your child and takes him away. You come looking and find out the kidnapper's family is aiding the kidnapper. If the kidnapper's family don't cooperate and tell me where the kidnapper is, you better believe I'm doing to do harm to the kidnapper's family to get my child back.

How big do you think Hamas is? The overwhelming majority of people in Gaza aren't part of Hamas. This isn't killing someone who is aiding your kidnapper (newborn children don't offer much assistance there). This is just slaughtering innocent civilians in hopes you might kill the small fraction of people responsible.

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'd toss in the West Bank was doing relatively well and before Hamas/Gaza decided the spoil the party. Or that PA should have been better guests and not try to overthrow Jordan. Or that PA should have taken one of the numerous deals on the table etc. Lots of missed opportunities and blame on both sides.

No it wasn't. Holy shit man, read a fucking book or any piece of news coverage on the West Bank over the past 20 years. The whole point in Israel supporting Hamas was so they could break Fatah and increase the illegal settlements.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Provide a link, I'd like to read more. Is this specific to the Ethiopian migrants?

Yes, Israel has a "law of return" that lets you immigrate if you are Jewish. They love it when white Americans and white Europeans immigrate under this and increase their population.

When black Ethiopians used that law, they sterilized them without their knowledge. Pure Nazi eugenics shit based solely on the color of their skin.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No. I don't support my tax dollars funding terrorists or war criminals. My tax dollars are not going to Hamas, nor do I want it to. My tax dollars are going to Israel. It's that fucking simple.

This question wasn't specific to your tax dollars. It was in response to your comment that wasn't specific to tax dollars.

So forget tax dollars, it's your red herring. The question is, regardless of whether or not your tax dollars is going to Hamas (a small bit is going to UNRWA btw). Simple question.

So you support indiscriminate rocket attacks, a literal war crime?

They openly admit it. They passed a fucking law a few years back expressing this sentiment.

This reminds me of Trump defenses when he proudly expresses something and people rush in to say that's not what he believes. You can take them at their word on this one man.

Provide a link or it didn't happen.

I honestly don't know so I want to read more, but I can't take your word for it. I mean after all, we've now come to find out that the Dems really didn't have a filibuster proof majority in 2009-2011 when you claimed they did. You know, sloppy research and loose definitions results in incorrect conclusions.

How big do you think Hamas is? The overwhelming majority of people in Gaza aren't part of Hamas. This isn't killing someone who is aiding your kidnapper (newborn children don't offer much assistance there). This is just slaughtering innocent civilians in hopes you might kill the small fraction of people responsible.

You mean how many Hamas fighters there are (e.g. the kidnappers) or are you also including Hamas sympathizers (e.g. the family members supporting or hiding them)?

Taken in totality, the majority of Palestinians in Gaza are Hamas or sympathizers.

Palestinians support Hamas decision to go to war with Israel, survey suggests, with no political solution on horizon | CNN

The survey, which has a four-point margin of error (rather than the usual three-point), found that almost three-quarters (72%) of all respondents believe Hamas’s decision to launch its attack on Israel on October 7 was “correct.”

Less than a quarter (22%) said it was “incorrect.”

No it wasn't. Holy shit man, read a fucking book or any piece of news coverage on the West Bank over the past 20 years. The whole point in Israel supporting Hamas was so they could break Fatah and increase the illegal settlements.

Above was in response to my below comment. I don't know what you are saying so tell me again which sentence below is the "no it wasn't"?

I'd toss in the West Bank was doing relatively well and before Hamas/Gaza decided the spoil the party. Or that PA should have been better guests and not try to overthrow Jordan. Or that PA should have taken one of the numerous deals on the table etc. Lots of missed opportunities and blame on both sides.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yes, Israel has a "law of return" that lets you immigrate if you are Jewish. They love it when white Americans and white Europeans immigrate under this and increase their population.

When black Ethiopians used that law, they sterilized them without their knowledge. Pure Nazi eugenics shit based solely on the color of their skin.

(Still more evidence that it all goes back to skin color as the root cause of all problems for you. Your default argument for all things).


Okay, so it was re: the Ethiopian women. I was just checking. Below is the article that revealed the scandal.

Just a moment...

I was confused because you were using the word "sterilization" which I believe implies "permanent". I wasn't sure if there was another incident. re: Ethiopian women, what Israel did was give birth control Depo-Provera (3 months birth control) to the women without consent. This is not "permanent". Still bad but not as bad.

Because I like "both sides", the below link questions the veracity of the claim. Note it does not deny it was done, however it questioned how many were impacted, whether it was unknowingly done, and the reasons.

Assessing Claims That Ethiopian Immigrants to Israel Received Birth Control Shots Without Consent - Alex Demas - The Dispatch

From the available evidence, it appears likely that some Ethiopian women were given contraceptive injections without fully understanding the potential side effects or their alternative options. However, there is no clear evidence indicating that the Israeli government or humanitarian organizations involved purposefully coerced women into receiving ...

If you have another article (besides your twitter & tiktoks) with more details, I would like to read it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This question wasn't specific to your tax dollars. It was in response to your comment that wasn't specific to tax dollars.

So forget tax dollars, it's your red herring. The question is, regardless of whether or not your tax dollars is going to Hamas (a small bit is going to UNRWA btw). Simple question.

No, I don't support indiscriminate rocket attacks. I don't support terrorism. Said this a million times in this thread. Like I said before, can't tell if just stupid or trolling.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Provide a link or it didn't happen.

I honestly don't know so I want to read more, but I can't take your word for it. I mean after all, we've now come to find out that the Dems really didn't have a filibuster proof majority in 2009-2011 when you claimed they did. You know, sloppy research and loose definitions results in incorrect conclusions.

It's called something like the Nation-State law. Was a pretty big deal and condemned around the world. I know you're catching up on like 100 years of history in 20 minutes, but you should be able to access Google like the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Edward64

You mean how many Hamas fighters there are (e.g. the kidnappers) or are you also including Hamas sympathizers (e.g. the family members supporting or hiding them)?

Taken in totality, the majority of Palestinians in Gaza are Hamas or sympathizers.

Palestinians support Hamas decision to go to war with Israel, survey suggests, with no political solution on horizon | CNN

Above was in response to my below comment. I don't know what you are saying so tell me again which sentence below is the "no it wasn't"?

Hamas is like 20000-30000 people in a population of over 2 million people. It's barely 1% of residents.

I'm sure people who have been locked in a prison and indiscriminately killed for years will side with anyone willing to help them fight for freedom. Did you expect Gaza residents to support Israel while they genocide them? That's why this method of war is incredibly dumb and leads to blowback.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

(Still more evidence that it all goes back to skin color as the root cause of all problems for you. Your default argument for all things).

Okay, so it was re: the Ethiopian women. I was just checking. Below is the article that revealed the scandal.

Just a moment...

I was confused because you were using the word "sterilization" which I believe implies "permanent". I wasn't sure if there was another incident. re: Ethiopian women, what Israel did was give birth control Depo-Provera (3 months birth control) to the women without consent. This is not "permanent". Still bad but not as bad.

Because I like "both sides", the below link questions the veracity of the claim. Note it does not deny it was done, however it questioned how many were impacted, whether it was unknowingly done, and the reasons.

Assessing Claims That Ethiopian Immigrants to Israel Received Birth Control Shots Without Consent - Alex Demas - The Dispatch

If you have another article (besides your twitter & tiktoks) with more details, I would like to read it.

They received the shots every 3 months. They were not told it sterilized them. The birth rates among this one sector plummeted. None of the white immigrants were being given Depo.

And this isn't even new stuff. Netanyahu's comments about Ehtiopians have been very clear for everyone to understand. They would dump out all the Ethiopian blood donations at one point (I think they recently stopped this). They made a fucking law specifically for African asylum seekers that lets them detain them in prison for up to a year without trial. You're talking about a country that trained Apartheid South Africa soldiers and tried to help them build a nuclear bomb.


And good lord you're trying to defend outright eugenics on some moronic technicality. How fucking sick in the head are you? I know you have a history of racist comments here, but defending eugenics is a new low.

Now follow up with a Websters dictionary definition of some term you just learned or claim I love Hamas because you can't defend our tax dollars going to this country. In 10 years, you'll pretend you never supported this stuff just like all the people who supported South Africa in the apartheid days.


It was dumb of me to get into another one of your concern trolling threads.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No, I don't support indiscriminate rocket attacks. I don't support terrorism. Said this a million times in this thread. Like I said before, can't tell if just stupid or trolling.

It's like the "kettle is calling the pot black". I was just responding in kind. If you don't like it, then don't do it.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So you support collective punishment. A literal war crime.

It's called something like the Nation-State law. Was a pretty big deal and condemned around the world. I know you're catching up on like 100 years of history in 20 minutes, but you should be able to access Google like the rest of us.

Thanks, I googled on "nation state law ethnostate". I found articles on Nation-State law but didn't find the tie to ethnostate. The 3 principles are below. What's the issue with them and how does this tie it to an ethnostate? Is it any different from Palestinians "from River to Sea"?

1. It states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.”
2. It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language, and downgrades Arabic — a language widely spoken by Arab Israelis — to a “special status.”
3. It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.”

Hamas is like 20000-30000 people in a population of over 2 million people. It's barely 1% of residents.

And hence, why I provided the poll to show you Hamas and sympathizers are 72%+.

I'm sure people who have been locked in a prison and indiscriminately killed for years will side with anyone willing to help them fight for freedom. Did you expect Gaza residents to support Israel while they genocide them?

Okay, so we are at mano-v-mano. Like I said above, I'm good with it.

Originally Posted by Edward64
Yes, they are justified to use self-defense too. No problem in a mano-v-mano. Just don't punch me the face and when I punch back, you yell "bully".

That's why this method of war is incredibly dumb and leads to blowback.

Yeah, I'm figuring Hamas is realizing no one is coming to help them.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They received the shots every 3 months. They were not told it sterilized them. The birth rates among this one sector plummeted. None of the white immigrants were being given Depo.

And this isn't even new stuff. Netanyahu's comments about Ehtiopians have been very clear for everyone to understand. They would dump out all the Ethiopian blood donations at one point (I think they recently stopped this). They made a fucking law specifically for African asylum seekers that lets them detain them in prison for up to a year without trial. You're talking about a country that trained Apartheid South Africa soldiers and tried to help them build a nuclear bomb.

And good lord you're trying to defend outright eugenics on some moronic technicality. How fucking sick in the head are you? I know you have a history of racist comments here, but defending eugenics is a new low.

Now follow up with a Websters dictionary definition of some term you just learned or claim I love Hamas because you can't defend our tax dollars going to this country. In 10 years, you'll pretend you never supported this stuff just like all the people who supported South Africa in the apartheid days.

It was dumb of me to get into another one of your concern trolling threads.

Yes, next time don't bother if you can't provide independent sources besides your twitters & tiktoks opinions. Your constant race baiting is tiresome.

[RainMaker]

Is the tiktok fascination from that weird answer Haley gave at a debate? I know she got made fun of for it but maybe there were people who like it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is the tiktok fascination from that weird answer Haley gave at a debate? I know she got made fun of for it but maybe there were people who like it.

Nope. It's from your pattern of quick, unsubstantiated got-cha's.

Source (JDAM acoustics): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)
Source (the infamous R9X ninja chopper): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)
Source (bulldozers): https://forums.operationsports.com/f...&postcount=410

And, of course, a bunch of other inaccuracies and poor choice of words/definitions from various posts.

[RainMaker]

I don't know man. I think after Israel has wiped out like 14 hospitals, they may have been responsible for that other one that they said they would bomb too. They're not exactly shy on bombing hospitals.

Although maybe it was another Hamas HQ that is totally there and not some lazy justification for imbeciles to eat up.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know man. I think after Israel has wiped out like 14 hospitals, they may have been responsible for that other one that they said they would bomb too. They're not exactly shy on bombing hospitals.

Although maybe it was another Hamas HQ that is totally there and not some lazy justification for imbeciles to eat up.

Let's not go off on a tangent or redirect.

So, are you saying your 3 accusations below are accurate?

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nope. It's from your pattern of quick, unsubstantiated got-cha's.

Source (JDAM acoustics): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)
Source (the infamous R9X ninja chopper): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)
Source (bulldozers): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

And, of course, a bunch of other inaccuracies and poor choice of words/definitions from various posts.

[RainMaker]

I think Israel bombed the hospital just like they bombed the others. I think they intentionally launch missiles at civilians and are reckless with their weaponry.

I don't know about the bulldozer one. If it's an old video you're talking about, then it's not them. But they've been bulldozing a lot of stuff lately. Using bulldozers is part of their MO for a long time.

At least 16 cemeteries in Gaza have been desecrated by Israeli forces, satellite imagery and videos reveal | CNN

It's be easier to find out what happened if we had journalists in the region. But Israel keeps assassinating them. I wonder why?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think Israel bombed the hospital just like they bombed the others. I think they intentionally launch missiles at civilians and are reckless with their weaponry.

I don't know about the bulldozer one. If it's an old video you're talking about, then it's not them. But they've been bulldozing a lot of stuff lately. Using bulldozers is part of their MO for a long time.

You just don't like answering tough (well, actually easy) questions do you? Like the other previous answer-non-answer, let me split it into 3 parts to make it easy.

Accurate or not?

Source (JDAM acoustics): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

Accurate or not?

Source (the infamous R9X ninja chopper): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

Accurate or not? I'll take your answer above as no, it was not accurate.

Source (bulldozers): Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

At least 16 cemeteries in Gaza have been desecrated by Israeli forces, satellite imagery and videos reveal | CNN

It's be easier to find out what happened if we had journalists in the region. But Israel keeps assassinating them. I wonder why?

Yup, like I was saying below. Why don't we finish one topic/accusations before moving to another?

Originally Posted by Edward64

Let's not go off on a tangent or redirect.

[Flasch186]

Is this when it should go to the other thread?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

I'm okay with that. I'll defer to RM as he was hesistant to come to this one from the Biden thread.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You could leave this in the Biden thread too. The genocide is a huge part of his Presidency and will likely cost him the election.

Originally Posted by Edward64

You've moved it into racism and IDF rather than Joe's support for the war. I mean, you have a chance to bring Joe into it but you still haven't answered my question ...

But hey, thanks for the reminder. It's been about 4 months now since the last really big blowup.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You just don't like answering tough (well, actually easy) questions do you? Like the other previous answer-non-answer, let me split it into 3 parts to make it easy.

Accurate or not?


Accurate or not?


Accurate or not? I'll take your answer above as no, it was not accurate.

Yup, like I was saying below. Why don't we finish one topic/accusations before moving to another?

I have no clue. I wasn't there. I'd trust the words of those who were there over the IDF which incessantly lies. And I'd argue a country with a history of this kind of violence likely committed those atrocities.

It would be great if we had journalists on the ground to report on this but again, Israel has assassinated most of them. Something you definitely do if truth is on your side.

[RainMaker]

I also genuinely have no idea what you're talking about half of this shit. I know you get pedantic with little details when you don't understand something but want to act like you do. But sitting around arguing about whether giving shots of Depo to unsuspecting immigrants fits the Websters definition of sterilization or some other term is mostly a waste of time.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have no clue. I wasn't there. I'd trust the words of those who were there over the IDF which incessantly lies. And I'd argue a country with a history of this kind of violence likely committed those atrocities.

Okay, I'm going to conclude you are not going to answer. No problem.

Actually, you had a clue. You weren't there but you still made those accusations without waiting or independent verification.

So now you have the answer for your below question and why I associate you as the twitter & tiktok guy.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is the tiktok fascination from that weird answer Haley gave at a debate? I know she got made fun of for it but maybe there were people who like it.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nope. It's from your pattern of quick, unsubstantiated got-cha's.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I also genuinely have no idea what you're talking about half of this shit.

Ditto. You and I live in different worlds. Maybe it's because you use words with made up definitions and wallow in "woe is me, racism this, racism that" etc. ad-nauseum.

I know you get pedantic with little details when you don't understand something but want to act like you do. But sitting around arguing about whether giving shots of Depo to unsuspecting immigrants fits the Websters definition of sterilization or some other term is mostly a waste of time.

If you don't see the difference between Mengele-like eugenics & sterilization vs bad idiots doing Depo and Israel citizens outraged it was done, I don't know what to tell you.

[RainMaker]

We've all seen you make racist comments to members here like DaddyTorgo. You can play dumb but I and others know exactly what you are.

[Edward64]

With this now getting personal, I copied and pasted my response in the other "catch-all-don't-bother-the-others" thread.

Come join me there.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Thread to hold extended & contentious Discussions

[RainMaker]

A Pediatrician’s Two Weeks Inside a Hospital in Gaza | The New Yorker

In the first few hours of my work, I treated an approximately one-year-old boy. His right arm and right leg had been blown off by a bomb, and flesh was still hanging off the foot. He had a bloodstained diaper, which remained, but there was no leg below. I treated the baby while he lay on the ground. There were no stretchers available because all the beds had already been taken, considering that many people were also trying to use the hospital as a shelter or safe space for their families. Next to him there was a man who was on his last breaths. He had been actively dying for the last twenty-four hours, and flies were already on him. All the while, a woman was brought in and was declared dead on arrival. This one-year-old had blood pouring into his chest cavity. He needed a chest tube so he wouldn’t asphyxiate on his own blood. But there were neither chest tubes nor blood-pressure cuffs that were available in pediatric sizes. No morphine had been given in the chaos, and it wasn’t even available. This patient in America would’ve immediately gone to the O.R., but instead the orthopedic surgeon bandaged the stumps up and said he couldn’t take him to the operating theatre right now because there were more pressing emergencies. And I tried to imagine what was more pressing than a one-year-old with no hand and no legs who was choking on his own blood. So that, to me, was symbolic of the impossible choices inflicted on the doctors of Gaza, and how truly cataclysmic that situation is.

[Edward64]

Behind paywall so only grabbed headlines. Don't see any other MSM reporting this and not much details.

Hopeful sign but devil in the details e.g. US-SA defense agreement for some sort of SA-Israel agreement.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Saudi Arabia has resumed talks with the US about forging closer defense ties after a pause following the start of the Israel-Hamas war in early October, according to people familiar with the discussions.

[Edward64]

I'll wait for independent verification from western MSM. Lots of articles qualify by saying "according to IDF ..." right now.

Israel-Hamas war: Israel unveils tunnels under UN Gaza headquarters | AP News

The Israeli military says it has discovered tunnels underneath the main headquarters of the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees in Gaza City, alleging that Hamas militants used the space as an electrical supply room.

The unveiling of the tunnels marked the latest chapter in Israel’s campaign against the embattled agency, which it accuses of collaborating with Hamas.

Recent Israeli allegations that a dozen staff members participated in the Hamas attack on Israel Oct. 7 plunged the agency into a financial crisis, prompting major donor states to suspend their funding as well as twin investigations. The agency says that Israel has also frozen its bank account, embargoed aid shipments and canceled its tax benefits.

Yup, let's see what the journalists say and the investigation comes out with.

The army invited journalists to view the tunnel on Thursday.

It did not prove definitively that Hamas militants operated in the tunnels underneath the UNRWA facility, but it did show that at least a portion of the tunnel ran underneath the facility’s courtyard. The military claimed that the headquarters supplied the tunnels with electricity.

UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini said the agency had no knowledge of the facility’s underground, but the findings merit an “independent inquiry,” which the agency is unable to perform due to the ongoing war.

[miked]

Why is this surprising to anyone? The West Bank and Gaza strip get tons of aid, yet their people live in squalor while their government fires thousands of missiles at civilian populations. The fact that they have more underground tunnels for smuggling people and weapons than most major cities have for transportation is the least shocking thing to come out.

This is the same organization that had China and Russia on the human rights council.

[RainMaker]

There are no words. pic.twitter.com/47DQo3FqXC

— UNRWA (@UNRWA) February 17, 2024