2010-11 Hot Stove League Thread - Grienke is a Baller

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Well, he didn't accept the 3/$45 million deal. So I am going out on a limb that he wants more than that. Which brings me back to my previous posts as to how the Yankees are handling this. Perhaps you are reading too much into what the Yanks are saying and not enough into what Jeter is not saying?

He probably does think he is worth more than that. I am guessing he isnt looking at himself and thinking that he is going to have a major decline in production over the next 3-4 years so he wants what he was just paid. He also probably feels he has done enough for the Yankees over the years that they would keep this negotiation "in house" and not try to turn the fanbase against him.

Its a tough situation for both sides as the Yankees would get crushed by their own fans for letting him go while Jeter is a Yankee icon and doesnt want to leave. The difficult part of this negotiation isnt the actual paper production but the X-factor which doesnt have a set monetary value.

Jeter sees all of these overpriced players come and go while he goes out every day and handles his business. He probably doesnt understand why some of these tools the Yankees bring in should get paid more than him.

[molson]

They're both holding each other hostage, really. The Yankees don't need Jeter, and the only downside to losing him is the potential fan reaction. Which can only be addressed by playing the media. "Keeping things in-house" benefits only Jeter. Jeter, through his agent, playing the "let's keep this classy" card is just his own negotiating ploy, to try to keep fan sentiment on his side (and thus increase his value). If it was to Jeter's benefit to play the media - I guarantee you his agent would be out there too.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

If Jeter was willing to show "respect" in taking a deal I'd think a deal would have been done before he was even a free agent. They very fact that this got to free agency shows there was a lot of disagreement and messiness here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Yankees have made it a practice not to negotiate during the season. It's why Rivera and Posada have always been technically free agents even though they tend to come to terms in what used to be the exclusive bargaining time (that's gone now right?). And if this deal was discussed a year ago, which I don't believe it was, it would have cost the Yankees much more in years/dollars after what Jeter did last year.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by molson

They're both holding each other hostage, really. The Yankees don't need Jeter, and the only downside to losing him is the potential fan reaction. Which can only be addressed by playing the media. "Keeping things in-house" benefits only Jeter. Jeter, through his agent, playing the "let's keep this classy" card is just his own negotiating ploy, to try to keep fan sentiment on his side (and thus increase his value). If it was to Jeter's benefit to play the media - I guarantee you his agent would be out there too.

Agreed

Jeter's agent isn't in a position to play up his production at this point so they're going to have to go other routes. Eventually Jeter's camp will attempt to put pressure on the Yankees to cave by turning to the fans and playing up how much he means to the organization. He's helped quite a bit by the fact that there's really no other SS option for the Yankees on the free agent market.

Both sides are obviously in a position where they need each other and what we'll probably see is Jeter get a 4th year as a reasonably easy to reach option while getting something in the neighborhood of $17-$20 mil per year.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Logan

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Yankees have made it a practice not to negotiate during the season. It's why Rivera and Posada have always been technically free agents even though they tend to come to terms in what used to be the exclusive bargaining time (that's gone now right?). And if this deal was discussed a year ago, which I don't believe it was, it would have cost the Yankees much more in years/dollars after what Jeter did last year.

You're right. They have a policy of not negotiating during the season and have traditionally allowed the players to go into free agency. I heard on Kaye's show once that they made exceptions two or three times: Paul O'Neill, one other significant player, and ....Chad Curtis.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by molson

They're both holding each other hostage, really. The Yankees don't need Jeter, and the only downside to losing him is the potential fan reaction. Which can only be addressed by playing the media. "Keeping things in-house" benefits only Jeter. Jeter, through his agent, playing the "let's keep this classy" card is just his own negotiating ploy, to try to keep fan sentiment on his side (and thus increase his value). If it was to Jeter's benefit to play the media - I guarantee you his agent would be out there too.

Originally Posted by Logan

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Yankees have made it a practice not to negotiate during the season. It's why Rivera and Posada have always been technically free agents even though they tend to come to terms in what used to be the exclusive bargaining time (that's gone now right?). And if this deal was discussed a year ago, which I don't believe it was, it would have cost the Yankees much more in years/dollars after what Jeter did last year.

Agree with both of these statements.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Jon

I heard on Kaye's show once that they made exceptions two or three times: Paul O'Neill, one other significant player, and ....Chad Curtis.

LOL

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

he's playing an important position at which he's sucked and will continue to suck, with the added bonus of apparently having too much pride to allow himself to be moved despite his deficiencies.

Would a poor defensive SS have won 5 gold gloves? Would a declining one have won GG's the past 2 years? Clearly not.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Would a poor defensive SS have won 5 gold gloves? Would a declining one have won GG's the past 2 years? Clearly not.

Gold gloves are a poor indicator of ability. They are mostly given based on past reputation instead of actual defensive ability. There's no way Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in the AL right now. No way.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Would a poor defensive SS have won 5 gold gloves? Would a declining one have won GG's the past 2 years? Clearly not.

well now youre just trying to start a SABR stats fight.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Would a poor defensive SS have won 5 gold gloves? Would a declining one have won GG's the past 2 years? Clearly not.

I hope this is tongue-in-cheek or something. I think this thread had a post that showed he actually was the worst defensive SS in the AL and baseballreference.com couldn't resist putting something like "yeah we can't believe it either?"

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Would a poor defensive SS have won 5 gold gloves? Would a declining one have won GG's the past 2 years? Clearly not.

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Gold gloves are a poor indicator of ability. They are mostly given based on past reputation instead of actual defensive ability. There's no way Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in the AL right now. No way.

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I hope this is tongue-in-cheek or something. I think this thread had a post that showed he actually was the worst defensive SS in the AL and baseballreference.com couldn't resist putting something like "yeah we can't believe it either?"

+2 (Oilers9911 and Mikevic each get one)

[stevew]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Would a poor defensive SS have won 5 gold gloves? Would a declining one have won GG's the past 2 years? Clearly not.

good work

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Would a poor defensive SS have won 5 gold gloves? Would a declining one have won GG's the past 2 years? Clearly not.

I'm feeling bullied.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I hope this is tongue-in-cheek or something. I think this thread had a post that showed he actually was the worst defensive SS in the AL and baseballreference.com couldn't resist putting something like "yeah we can't believe it either?"

Originally Posted by BishopMVP in the 2008-09 offseason thread

In a shocking upset, the "Derek Jeter Memorial Great Hitting, Terrible Fielding AL Shortstop Gold Glove" went to Michael Young this year.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP in the 2009-2010 offeason thread

complaining about Jeter winning is so 2003. Now all the cool kids are decrying Franklin Gutierrez's snub.

[/takes off SABR Bully Robe and Wizard Hat]

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

[/takes off SABR Bully Robe and Wizard Hat]

I'm disappointed. Where are the other 3 gold glove quotes?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

[/takes off SABR Bully Robe and Wizard Hat]

I hope Jeter signs to be the Red Sox starting SS and clean-up hitter.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I'm disappointed. Where are the other 3 gold glove quotes?

Unfortunately the only other ones I can find outside the archive only involve Nate McLouth.

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I hope Jeter signs to be the Red Sox starting SS and clean-up hitter.

I hope not... we've got Marco Scutaro and 35 (+!) year old David Ortiz to take care of those spots. :yay?:

I actually wouldn't mind Jeter emotionally (beyond that disgraceful fake HBP last summer I've respected him) but there is no way we should (or will) pay him more than 2/18-20 - and even that is assuming a bounce-back. (Healthy) Jed Lowrie is better than him. Marco Scutaro might be as well. So unless the Yankees are pulling off an epic con (and Jeter is going along with it for some reason) there is no way we would offer even half of what he "means" to the Yankees.

[sovereignstar v2]

Twins secure negotiating rights for Tsuyoshi Nishioka with a 5 million dollar bid. Hope he pans out.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Does that make JJ Hardy available? It'd be nice for the Giants to get him if Uribe doesn't come back/is too expensive.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Twins secure negotiating rights for Tsuyoshi Nishioka with a 5 million dollar bid. Hope he pans out.

I'm a little surprised the M's weren't willing to bid higher than $5M for him.

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Does that make JJ Hardy available? It'd be nice for the Giants to get him if Uribe doesn't come back/is too expensive.

Personally, I hope not unless the Twins are totally sold on his ability to play SS. It sounds as if he might be a better fit at 2B. And I don't want Alexi Casilla to play SS if that's the case.

[RomaGoth]

The Jeter-Yankee drama is getting better everyday:

Source: New York Yankees want Derek Jeter to take 'reality potion' - ESPN New York

[molson]

Where can I get some of this "reality potion"?

Or do they just mean booze?

[ISiddiqui]

Isn't that unreality potion?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Isn't that unreality potion?

I think it is a combination of "greedier than shit" potion and "full of himself" potion. No way in a million years that Jeter is worth $23-25 million/year.

[Young Drachma]

Here's the 2010 postseason playoff shares breakdown. The 4 second-place non-qualifiers have always received playoff shares since the Wild Card came into play for the first time in 1995, in case people saw that and were confused by it.

A full postseason share for the 2010 World Series Champion San Francisco Giants totaled $317,631.29, while a full share for the American League Champion Texas Rangers amounted to $246,279.55, Major League Baseball announced today. Last year’s share amounts were $350,030.00 for the World Series Champion New York Yankees and $265,357.50 for the National League Champion Philadelphia Phillies.

The players’ pool, formed from 60 percent of the gate receipts from the first three games of the Division Series and 60 percent of the gate receipts from the first four games of the League Championship series and the World Series, was divided among 12 clubs: the World Series participants, the League Championship Series and Division Series runners-up, and the four regular season second-place clubs that were not Wild Card participants.

The club-by-club breakdown follows:

World Series Champions

San Francisco Giants (Share of Players’ Pool: $19,764,779.19; value of each full share: $317,631.29) – The Giants awarded 50 full shares, 9.89 partial shares and 5 cash awards.

American League Champions

Texas Rangers (Share of Players’ Pool: $13,176,519.46; value of each full share: $246,279.55) – The Rangers awarded 44 full shares, 8 partial shares and 12 cash awards.

League Championship Series Runners-Up

Philadelphia Phillies (Share of Players’ Pool: $6,588,259.73; value of each full share: $123,140.50) – The Phillies awarded 43 full shares, 10.42 partial shares and 1 cash award.

New York Yankees (Share of Players’ Pool: $6,588,259.73; value of each full share: $110,302.97) – The Yankees awarded 43 full shares, 15.75 partial shares and 1 cash award.

Division Series Runners-Up

Minnesota Twins (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,647,064.93; value of each full share: $30,883.43) – The Twins awarded 42 full shares, 10.17 partial shares and 16 cash awards.

Atlanta Braves (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,647,064.93; value of each full share: $29,510.57) – The Braves awarded 48 full shares, 7.03 partial shares and 35 cash awards.

Tampa Bay Rays (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,647,064.93; value of each full share: $28,141.51) – The Rays awarded 45 full shares, 10.48 partial shares and 20 cash awards.

Cincinnati Reds (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,647,064.93; value of each full share: $26,910.27) – The Reds awarded 48 full shares, 10.01 partial shares and 20 cash awards.

Second-Place Finishers (Non-Wild Card Clubs)

Chicago White Sox (Share of Players’ Pool: $549,021.64; value of each full share: $10,885.57) – The White Sox awarded 43 full shares, 6.33 partial shares and 9 cash awards.

San Diego Padres (Share of Players’ Pool: $549,021.64; value of each full share: $10,118.84) – The Padres awarded 47 full shares, 6.75 partial shares and 1 cash award.

Oakland Athletics (Share of Players’ Pool: $549,021.64; value of each full share: $9,832.05) – The A’s awarded 43 full shares, 12.5 partial shares and 3 cash awards.

St. Louis Cardinals (Share of Players’ Pool: $549,021.64; value of each full share: $9,679.42) – The Cardinals awarded 44 full shares, 12.05 partial shares and 4 cash awards.

[stevew]

I wonder if Molina got a full share from both the Giants and the Rangers. Probably?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by stevew

I wonder if Molina got a full share from both the Giants and the Rangers. Probably?

I was thinking prorated from each team.

I wonder why 2nd place clubs get a piece of this pie.

[SirFozzie]

Ok, Rockies, i can understand wanting to keep Tulowitzki around longer.. but um, he's already yours for the next FOUR years(three plus option), and you're going to sign him to a SIX YEAR EXTENSION? That's right, You can probably pencil in Troy Tulowitzki to the SS position for the Rockies in 2020.. when he's 36, and making something like $20 million (6 years, $115-120 Million is the rumored extension to the existing contract)

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I was thinking prorated from each team.

I wonder why 2nd place clubs get a piece of this pie.

No one seems to have any official word on it. But it's probably a concession from the expansion of the postseason back when they approved the deal to add the wild card to both leagues. It's possible in baseball that a team could finish with a better record than a division winner and miss the postseason because the wild card played in a division where they had more wins. I don't think it's happened yet.

It's part of why I think adding another wild card isn't a bad idea. We pay them like they made the playoffs anyway, might as well make them play for it even if it's just a game.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by stevew

I wonder if Molina got a full share from both the Giants and the Rangers. Probably?

Yup.
Who Profits From Baseball’s Postseason? - SportsMoney - news on the business of sports - Forbes

One of the more interesting provisions of Major League Rule 45 is with regards to a player who has been with more than one club during the season. If more than one of his clubs from that season is in the postseason, he can actually receive a share from each club that participated in the postseason. However, there are provisions that limit his total amount received to the amount he would have received if given a full share as a player who was eligible and with the team prior to June 1.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ok, Rockies, i can understand wanting to keep Tulowitzki around longer.. but um, he's already yours for the next FOUR years(three plus option), and you're going to sign him to a SIX YEAR EXTENSION? That's right, You can probably pencil in Troy Tulowitzki to the SS position for the Rockies in 2020.. when he's 36, and making something like $20 million (6 years, $115-120 Million is the rumored extension to the existing contract)

He's REALLY popular in Denver and with Helton about to be finished, they need someone to take over the mantle of "face of the franchise" and if anyone is apt to do it, it's Tulo.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

It's possible in baseball that a team could finish with a better record than a division winner and miss the postseason because the wild card played in a division where they had more wins. I don't think it's happened yet.

Dating back to 2001, Texas was better than the AL Central winner last year, Yankees were better than the Central winner in 2008, and Seattle was better than the Central winner in 2003. In the NL, SF was better than the East winner in 2001, in 2005 3 NL East teams that missed the playoffs had a better record than the NL West Champ, Philly was better than the Central winner (and eventual WS winner) in 2006, SD and the Mets were better than the Central winner in 2007, in 2008 the West winner was worse than NY, Florida, Houston and St Louis. So that's 14 teams in 10 years, including multiple 3rd place teams and even a 4th place team that have missed the postseason despite a better record than a playoff team in their league.

[Young Drachma]

I didn't do the research, but it would make sense that it's happened. Still it doesn't really explain the playoff money thing...I just thought it might be one rationale since it's been the case since the inception of the Wild Card.

[Ksyrup]

Dunn for 4/$56M to the White Sox. Bye-bye Konerko.

[Crapshoot]

Nice deal for WhiteSox - I like the move, and Dunn is a great hitter (the glove, not so much). There's some talk that they are still looking at Konerko however - put him at 1B, Have Dunn DH (or other way around).

[Neuqua]

Been hearing the same thing Crapshoot said.

Looks like Reinsdorf is opening up his wallet.

[Izulde]

Yep. Dunn will DH and they're still planning on Konerko back at 1B. That'll be a HUGELY improved offense if Paulie comes back too.

On a sad personal note, they didn't offer Jenks a contract. It's not going to be the same without Bobby closing, even if he struggled last year.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Burrell to the Giants for 1 year, $1,000,000 + Incentives supposedly. Amazingly good deal for the Giants.

[RomaGoth]

I will be looking for a new MLB team to follow (or going back to the Tigers) if the Yankees fuck this Jeter thing up, which it is looking more and more like they are going to do.

Just like with the ARod fiasco, they are going to overpay Jeter and raise the offer when they are the only bidders.

At some point I really just have to shake my head and walk away from that team, including my 30-something years of fandom.

Sources: New York Yankees tell Derek Jeter they'll improve offer - ESPN New York

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Burrell to the Giants for 1 year, $1,000,000 + Incentives supposedly. Amazingly good deal for the Giants.

I'll take that deal!

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I will be looking for a new MLB team to follow (or going back to the Tigers) if the Yankees fuck this Jeter thing up, which it is looking more and more like they are going to do.

Just like with the ARod fiasco, they are going to overpay Jeter and raise the offer when they are the only bidders.

At some point I really just have to shake my head and walk away from that team, including my 30-something years of fandom.

Sources: New York Yankees tell Derek Jeter they'll improve offer - ESPN New York

Do you really think the Yankees want to let him walk? Even if he isnt worth it they are going to keep him.

As a Yankees fan why wouldnt you want to keep him? I dont get it. You overpay for shitty pitchers and over the the hill hitters all the time but you dont want to keep a player involved in 5 championships I believe. Not to mention he is an icon to the city and a first ballot HOF'er.

Its not like your paying his salary. And its not as if the Yankees are ever short on cash to waste on players.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Braves re-sign free agent Hinske, cut ties with Diaz | Atlanta Braves

Dang I hate to see Diaz go.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Braves re-sign free agent Hinske, cut ties with Diaz | Atlanta Braves

Dang I hate to see Diaz go.

He would crush leftys. Would make a nice platoon player in the AL with Jim Thome.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Do you really think the Yankees want to let him walk? Even if he isnt worth it they are going to keep him.

No way is he worth even close to their original offer. It is a joke.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

As a Yankees fan why wouldnt you want to keep him? I dont get it.

I have always liked Jeter, but this concept that he is larger than life, or some sort of fucking baseball God, is just ridiculous. It is just media propaganda being shoved down our throats, and as fans we sometimes need to just say enough is enough already. There is absolutely nothing Jeter can do for the Yankees that another average SS can't do at least as well at this point. Financially, it makes no sense at all to pay a guy for what he did in the past, when he earned what he was perceived to be worth during that time.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

You overpay for shitty pitchers and over the the hill hitters all the time but you dont want to keep a player involved in 5 championships I believe. Not to mention he is an icon to the city and a first ballot HOF'er.

So? What he did 10 years ago means nothing now, it won't help them win one game in 2011. What you say above though is really the brunt of the problem with the Yankees, and is something that has been festering with me more and more over the years:

You overpay for shitty pitchers and over the the hill hitters

I just can't keep watching this team overpay for guys like A.J. Burnett, Kevin Brown, Nick Johnson, Jorge Posada (retire already!), and now it appears, Derek Jeter.

As a Yankees fan, I am worn out.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I just can't keep watching this team overpay for guys like A.J. Burnett, Kevin Brown, Nick Johnson, Jorge Posada (retire already!), and now it appears, Derek Jeter.

As a Yankees fan, I am worn out.

I feel for you here. Im just looking at things from an outsider perspective.

The Yankees could use their money so much better than they do but it doesnt appear to me that they can find a way to restrict themselves financially where they cant buy their way out of it.

Jeter and Rivera are the only two Yankees that I dont mind so I guess Id like to see him stay there. I think you will miss him when you dont have him despite his flaws and age.

No I wouldnt the Twins signing Jeter for 15 million because they cant afford to overpay a player like this but the Yankees, I think they can

[stevew]

In the 2008 offseason the Pirates offered arb buyout extensions to ryan Doumit, paul maholm, and nate mcclouth. I probably praised this decision. Cause they were all players that seemed to bettter than average.

Anyways, all 3 would be nontendered at this point. Kind of makes a good example for why young players should take the money/why teams should go year to year in arbitration.

[JetsIn06]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Unfortunately the only other ones I can find outside the archive only involve Nate McLouth. I hope not... we've got Marco Scutaro and 35 (+!) year old David Ortiz to take care of those spots. :yay?:

I actually wouldn't mind Jeter emotionally (beyond that disgraceful fake HBP last summer I've respected him) but there is no way we should (or will) pay him more than 2/18-20 - and even that is assuming a bounce-back. (Healthy) Jed Lowrie is better than him. Marco Scutaro might be as well. So unless the Yankees are pulling off an epic con (and Jeter is going along with it for some reason) there is no way we would offer even half of what he "means" to the Yankees.

But that fake foul off V-Mart's leg was perfectly okay, right?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Been hearing the same thing Crapshoot said.

Looks like Reinsdorf is opening up his wallet.

I read they only had money for 2 of Dunn, Konerko, and Buehrle, and they were going to re-up Buehrle.

I guess as a Tigers fan, I wouldn't be opposed to them paying both of those guys in 2014.