#CharlestonShooting

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Good for them!

Agreed. It is nice to see people come together whenever a disruptive element tries to take advantage of a situation.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ebay now as well will add confederate flag items to the not allowed list.

Pretty soon, the only place you'll be able to buy this shit is on the black market.

[nol]

It would have been even better if these retailers sold the Confederate merchandise at an exorbitant markup and then donated the proceeds to a nonprofit like the Southern Poverty Law Center.

[Dutch]

When we finally get together for a beer, I'll start with..."Okay, this is a joke".

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Pretty soon, the only place you'll be able to buy this shit is on the black market.

Why it gotta be a BLACK market?

Now seriously regarding the flag on I-4, the group has a right and all the proper permits to fly the flag. They should not have to take it down just because it hurts someone's sensibilities. HOWEVER, I have seen Hillsborough county call many a special session in order to change local zoning laws to get rid of things that hurt the sensibilities of a few.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Dutch

When we finally get together for a beer, I'll start with..."Okay, this is a joke".

That didn't have much to do with the attempted joke (it was funnier the first 50 or so times I saw some variant of it yesterday ). It was just an attempt at spitballing an idea that would have gotten those retailers the same amount of good PR without as much hand-wringing about 1st amendment stuff. Now that I think of it more, I could totally imagine a bunch of people overtaking an Amazon page selling the Confederate flag with a bunch of comical 5 star reviews talking about how well it burns or how great a job it does at wiping one's ass.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

White racist comes to town trying to start a race war; Charleston comes together. Some black rabble-rousers (apparently from out of town, possibly from the New Black Panther Party) show up at the church being rude and disrespectful; they get "shouted" down by multiracial crowd of locals singing "We Shall Overcome." You go, Lowcountry!

Protesters attempt to disturb memorial at Mother Emanuel - WCBD-TV: News, Weather, and Sports for Charleston, SC

This is the path where we can overcome racism, not the "defeared" alternative.

Good job Charlestonians! (Charlestonites?)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

Can't you buy actually racist sambo type shit on eBay though?

Yeah, so I just looked and eBay is ztrange

Yeah you can buy Nazi stuff on there. Also a quick search shows tons of white power and KKK items too. Kind of weird where they draw the line.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by nol

That didn't have much to do with the attempted joke (it was funnier the first 50 or so times I saw some variant of it yesterday ). It was just an attempt at spitballing an idea that would have gotten those retailers the same amount of good PR without as much hand-wringing about 1st amendment stuff. Now that I think of it more, I could totally imagine a bunch of people overtaking an Amazon page selling the Confederate flag with a bunch of comical 5 star reviews talking about how well it burns or how great a job it does at wiping one's ass.

I figured it was too good to have been the first FOFC had heard it. And yes, its still a free country, capitalism is supposed to be blind to why you want to buy something.

[CU Tiger]

An article on a dear friend of mine and his stance...
http://www.durhamregion.com/news-sto...wilkins-urges/

Congrats BOD Chair Wilkins.

[Dutch]

One comment, off the beaten path a bit...the article mentions an "Indian-American". I can only hope that means a person from India and not a Native American. Right?

[RainMaker]

Apple removed a bunch of apps that had the confederate flag in it. Basically all the Civil War games. You can however still see Nazis in the app store.

I understand the decision but think it's really weird how the confederate flag is now considered much worse than the nazi flag.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Dutch

One comment, off the beaten path a bit...the article mentions an "Indian-American". I can only hope that means a person from India and not a Native American. Right?

Yes.
Nikki's father was born in India.

Or if I were to be more politically incorrect she is a gas station indian not a casino indian. or a dot not a feather.

Oh wait that is NOT funny and it is politically incorrect. I apologize. I'll remove a sock from my sock drawer for my offense.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Apple removed a bunch of apps that had the confederate flag in it. Basically all the Civil War games. You can however still see Nazis in the app store.

I understand the decision but think it's really weird how the confederate flag is now considered much worse than the nazi flag.

Just a knee jerk reaction. Once things calm down I imagine those games will come back.

[Dutch]

http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/...-from-appstore

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Dutch

http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/...-from-appstore

I don´t buy that letting "kids experience one of the most important battles in American history from the Commander's perspective." is actually a milestone for education.

Not claiming that it makes sense to pull the game, just saying that this is not really a leg to stand on (and i totally buy that the kids love it and it might even pique their interest, but it is certainly bullshit that "seeing it from the commander´s perspective" is actually a valuable addition to the curriculum unless there are future generals or presidents in there and the world reverts back to pre-1900 technology soon)

As someone studying both History and Media Science this just irks me on both accounts

[Dutch]

But you are against this game with confederate flags being pulled from Apple's app store. That's all that matters.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

But you are against this game with confederate flags being pulled from Apple's app store. That's all that matters.

Since the app store isn't an American government place of business, I have no problem with them selling these. Seems silly actually. They probably have no idea what the content of the games are.

[Dutch]

So, the influence (we'll call it that) of the massacre wasn't private owned confederate flags, but the flag on a pole in the yard of a govt building. That honestly doesn't make sense to me.

Seems like a half-assed response to the out-cry for banning the flag. If the flag is hurtful, why should we stop a publicly owned? If not a banning now, when? After the next massacre?

[Jukeman]

Lets see, 4 million dollars have be raised for Roof's legal fees and at least 6 other black churches have been burned down since this incident... (In a span of a week)

Coincidence or terrorism?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Lets see, 4 million dollars have be raised for Roof's legal fees

Hmmmm...

Dylann Roof Donations : snopes.com

[Jukeman]

There is a group that is call CofCC that Roof mention that is known for raising money.

The white rights whatever thing may be false or misinformed but when there is smoke there is a fire somewhere. There is always some truth in a lie.

[Schmidty]

I am going to be honest: People use the flag that lost? And was traitorous? Wow.

Ok, Resume.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I am going to be honest: People use the flag that lost?

Well people still wave the French flag as well.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Well people still wave the French flag as well.

But France still exists. The Confederacy, not so much.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

at least 6 other black churches have been burned down since this incident... (In a span of a week)

what?! surprised that wasn't bigger news.

[Jukeman]

In each report no one knows what caused the fire.

The latest fire (in SC) was blamed on lightening but again no one officially knew the cause.

[Ben E Lou]

I think three are suspected arson as of right now. Feds are involved. No suspects have been made public. Hate crimes not ruled out, but no evidence of that yet either.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Lets see, 4 million dollars have be raised for Roof's legal fees and at least 6 other black churches have been burned down since this incident... (In a span of a week)

Coincidence or terrorism?

Make that 7, another in SC last night.

edit: Sorry didn't check full thread to see last night's had been covered.

[nol]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

what?! surprised that wasn't bigger news.

We were all up to date on that CVS in Baltimore though.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by nol

We were all up to date on that CVS in Baltimore though.

[Ben E Lou]

Time to do some cypherin'...

[Ben E Lou]

(Dola: I already pretty much loathe the modern media--both the "conservative" and "liberal" branches. If this turns out the way I suspect it will...just damn.)

[Ben E Lou]

Ok. Anyone want to guess--statistically speaking, without trying to look it up--how many black churches in the Deep South* we would expect to burn during any normal two-week period since 2010 or so?

*--I just looked at FL, GA, NC, TN, AL, SC, LA, MS, and AR.

[miked]

5?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Coincidence or terrorism?

At least terrorism.

[stevew]

I would suspect that churches in poorer and/or ethnic* communities are often 60+ years old and do not have the operating budget to do major overhauls in safety. Likely not many sprinklers and out of date wiring. So, yeah, a lot of them burn.


*around here it seems like several of the old school Italian churches have merged, shut down

[Ben E Lou]

Not quite that high if *all* things were equal. If that were the case, it would be around 3.25. However, the one number that I could not find would be either the number of black congregations, or simply the average comparative sizes. In other words, I suspect that there are significantly more black congregations per capita in the south than white ones, but I can't find numbers to support or refute that thought. If that is true, it would increase that expected number. (And that's also not factoring in black churches being poorer and therefore more likely to have fires caused by faulty wiring, etc. That 3.25 number is purely based on the total number of American churches that catch fire per day, filtered down to those states based on population and race percentages.)

Either way, though, with the sample size of only two weeks, from a purely mathematical perspective, the number we've seen lately isn't all that alarming. (By the way, it looks like the total is down to six. Subtracted the Pres church in TN.)

BOTTOM LINE: while I wouldn't put it past some flag supporters to take out their frustrations on black churches, the numbers we are seeing so far don't support that it's anything remotely resembling the near-epidemic that the press seems to want us to think. Sadly, it may stir up paranoia in black people. I happen to be in Georgia with relatives this week, and have already heard some "listen to 'em trying to say it's lightning!" talk. Roughly one in size church fires in America are arson. If it turns out to be 0 or 1 in 6 in these cases, that is perfectly normal statistically, but will no doubt cause cries of "cover-up." And given that under perfectly normal conditions, a black church in the South catches fire at least once or twice a week without any foul play, the press will have plenty of opportunities to keep this stirred up even if there's nothing to it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by stevew

I would suspect that churches in poorer and/or ethnic* communities are often 60+ years old and do not have the operating budget to do major overhauls in safety. Likely not many sprinklers and out of date wiring. So, yeah, a lot of them burn.


*around here it seems like several of the old school Italian churches have merged, shut down

cross post. Yeah, I couldn't find any numbers specific to black churches, so I just took overall numbers and applied them equally to get the 3.25. There's no question in my mind that the rates are higher in the poorer demographics.

[Dutch]

I've seen plenty of churches throughout the south that look like they could catch on fire because the sun was out. I'm more interested in how they aren't knocked over by a strong breeze.

And I wouldn't be surprised if some little racist fuckers...probably dirt poor, mind you...set a church or two on fire. Some of the white boys just don't realize that if they wanted to, they could convert their privilege from hate into cold hard cash like them northern white boys do. Or at least convert it into hating other white folks.

[Edward64]

I know its not his sisters fault but this is obviously not appropriate at this time (and probably never will). To ask the public, strangers to help her get married is weird. Do an affordable marriage, defer the honeymoon and start your lives together.

Charleston shooting: Sister of gunman makes wedding appeal - BBC News

A fundraising website launched by the sister of a gunman who killed 9 people at a US church has been taken down after heavy criticism on social media.

A page set up in the name of Amber Roof had called for donations to pay for her wedding, which was cancelled after the attack on the church in South Carolina.

She said her wedding day had been "tainted by the actions of one man".

Dylann Roof was charged with nine counts of murder for the attack on African-American church in Charleston.

Ms Roof was due to marry her partner Michael on 21 June, four days after the attack on the Emanuel AME Church.

Writing on their fundraising page, the couple said their "lives were forever changed" by the event, adding that the media "abused our privacy" by publishing details about their wedding.

They said they had cancelled their wedding "to protect our family and mourn the lives of those lost".

The money would help "to cover lost wedding costs, to pay bills, and to send us on our dream honeymoon", they wrote.

The couple added that they would give 10% of funds raised to the church in Charleston.

[RainMaker]

That family seems like a real piece of work.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

In other words, I suspect that there are significantly more black congregations per capita in the south than white ones, but I can't find numbers to support or refute that thought.

Hrm, I dunno about that one. I mean, take where I grew up (Pickens Co, GA), there's somewhere around three dozen white churches for a 30k population (96% white) even to this day. And the actual number may be more than that if I really started digging into it. There's around two dozen of my sub-denomination alone.

It's not that I doubt a low per capita number for black congregations, it's that I figure the per capita number for white congregations is pretty low in a lot of OTP-type areas too.

edit: OTP = Outside The Perimeter, an Atlanta-area reference that SD will understand immediately. For the rest of you, think suburban & exurban.

[JPhillips]

In my hometown of Greenfield, Ohio I count nineteen predominantly white churches for a population under 4100.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hrm, I dunno about that one. I mean, take where I grew up (Pickens Co, GA), there's somewhere around three dozen white churches for a 30k population (96% white) even to this day. And the actual number may be more than that if I really started digging into it. There's around two dozen of my sub-denomination alone.

It's not that I doubt a low per capita number for black congregations, it's that I figure the per capita number for white congregations is pretty low in a lot of OTP-type areas too.

edit: OTP = Outside The Perimeter, an Atlanta-area reference that SD will understand immediately. For the rest of you, think suburban & exurban.

Oh, I'm not saying that there aren't a metric buttload of white churches per capita in the South. I'm just saying that I suspect that there are, oh 1.25 to 2.5 metric buttloads of black churches per capita in the South.

Let's take the Pickens County example, because I tend to suspect it's actually fairly representative of what I'm speculating here. The numbers you mention indicate that there's maybe 1 predominately white church per 800 white people, possibly down to maybe 500 or 600 if you're missing a fairly significant number of churches.

But let's compare that to the number of black churches in Pickens.

It appears that the county is 1.27% black and .84% "from two or more races." Let's assign all of that second group to "black" and round it off to 2%, or 600ish black people. A quick Google search for black churches in Pickens County pulls up this article:

Black History in Pickens Part IV: Historic Black Churches

That indicates that there are five historic black churches in the county--1 per 120 people. One of the blurbs speaks to one of the specific things I was thinking about that I suspect is more prevalent in black Southern culture than white Southern culture. From the article:

Miracle Friendship Holiness Church
The Methodist church was vacant for about 15-20 years and then, in the 1970s, the Holiness believers took over. Three ladies, Pastor Moss, Mother Thurman and Gladys Glover, are responsible for starting the services.

Pastor Mamie Sue Moss found the church in a deplorable condition. She collected money in order to do some refurbishing to the inside of the church. The walls were paneled, carpet came from Calhoun Nelson Baptist Church gave some pews and E.L. Howell built the restrooms.

A piano was donated by a lady from Marietta, Edna Glover; chairs were donated by friends from Marietta and W.L. Stephens built the pulpit. Pastor Moss purchased the drums and had the communion table build. Joyce Dorsey donated an organ and The Marietta Housing Authority provided heaters. Services were held on Wednesday and Friday nights and on each Sunday.

Pastor Moss wanted the frosted windows changed. They were painted red and white which gives the checker board appearance.

From Pickens Progress, Smoky Hollow Church in need of repair 9/9/2010, Jeff Warren.

How Mamie Moss ended up leading a church in Pickens County when she lived in Marietta and had never seen the church or the community is an amazing story, one that I enjoyed hearing from Miss Mamie during my interviews of her and Joy Dorsey.

Mamie Moss had a reoccurring vision in which she saw a large group of people, unpainted houses, and people running up a hill. She prayed to the Lord for understanding. Later at a church gathering in Marietta she was invited to begin a home Bible Study in the Pickens County community of Smoky Hollow. It was 1967 and she accepted the invitation. When she began to visit the Smoky Hollow community she was visiting near The Stand and she recognized that this was the place she had seen in her visions.

Knowing the Lord wanted more of her than just a Bible Study, Mamie Moss knew she needed to open a church and that the abandoned Tate Methodist Church was where it should be located. “The windows and doors were gone. It was in bad shape,” she recalled. Her first sermon was in January of 1971.

Pastor Moss served this church for seventeen years before moving to Kentucky. Joyce Dorsey over as pastor of the church in her absence. After seven years in Kentucky and eight years in Texas, Joy convinced Rev. Moss to return. Rev. Dorsey is now the assistant pastor.

Today the congregation is very small, with about five church members attending. “Most of the church members died or moved away to Atlanta,” Rev. Moss explained. She holds Sunday services on the first, third and fifth Sundays at noon.

This historic church is in desperate need of repair. To offer assistance or for more information call Rev. Moss at 706-301-9025. Donations can be made to the Miracle Fellowship Church account (#638261) at Jasper Banking Company.

Five people coming to church, but a whole building--one in terrible repair.

One of the others appears to have been empty at the time the article was written, but I would imagine at some point (possibly now,) a black person will be "called to preach" and have a tiny congregation in there again. Two of the others only meet twice a month. But clearly there are at least five "black church" buildings and four active churches serving 600 people or less, depending on how many of the multiracial people there are culturally black.

I don't think that's unique to Pickens County or even Southern exurbia in general. The black community (at least in the Deep South) seems to be more willing to attend church in run-down buildings in very small numbers, even in more metropolitan areas. This week two of my siblings and I were talking about this with regard to the recent burnings, and they rattled off more than a dozen black churches in Columbus (over 200K people, little over 45% black, so 90000+ black people not counting the biracials) that usually have ~30 people or less per week. That sort of thing can really skew the per capita numbers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

That sort of thing can really skew the per capita numbers.

You may have addressed this already but ... do we count rented storefronts as "church buildings"?

Yep, I'm far afield of the original topic here, sorry.

edit to add: Point being I'm not sure if they're counted in various stats or not but it could be enough to be statistically significant.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You may have addressed this already but ... do we count rented storefronts as "church buildings"?

Yep, I'm far afield of the original topic here, sorry.

edit to add: Point being I'm not sure if they're counted in various stats or not but it could be enough to be statistically significant.

No real idea with regard to the national average number I found, though It *seemed* to be talking about traditional "church buildings" and not just congregations. I intentionally am excluding those in my thinking (and the siblings and I excluded them in thinking now about them in Columbus.) Lord knows that there are a ton of those, both black and white. After all, where else would Apostle Jimmy convene the Victorious Pentecostal Holiness Church Of The Living God if we didn't have storefront rentals???

But no, unless I am really missing something, all five of the churches in that article are actual buildings. And they fit a pattern that seemed to be fairly common: land was cheap, especially in the South, so someone (same guy for multiple black churches in Pickens, per the article,) donated land and sometimes building materials for a black church. Four walls, a roof, and a steeple go up on said land--the kind of church where you walk up two or three steps from outside, open the door, and you're standing in the back of the church--the kind of place where you had dinner on the grounds 'cause you didn't have a fellowship hall.

Point being, there seem to be a lot of those old churches that survive with tiny congregations because the pastor has another job and there's no mortgage or rent.

(And yes, if for some reason storefront rentals are included in the main 1800ish per year stat, it's most certainly going to be statistically significant. All of my cypherin' that drilled it down to 3.25 per two weeks was based on that one number combined with plain ol' population numbers.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

After all, where else would Apostle Jimmy convene the Victorious Pentecostal Holiness Church Of The Living God if we didn't have storefront rentals???

In the interest of education, what people outside the South may not realize is that the church referenced here actually belongs to a 60 year old white dude who found religion while in jail. On three different occasions in fact.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I've seen plenty of churches throughout the south that look like they could catch on fire because the sun was out. I'm more interested in how they aren't knocked over by a strong breeze.

And I wouldn't be surprised if some little racist fuckers...probably dirt poor, mind you...set a church or two on fire. Some of the white boys just don't realize that if they wanted to, they could convert their privilege from hate into cold hard cash like them northern white boys do. Or at least convert it into hating other white folks.

Originally Posted by Dutch

How is Brown vs the Board of Education working out in those northern inner cities. Fully integrated?

In a few months' time you have gone from kind of pretending/wishfully thinking that racism doesn't exist (or at least thinking that anti-white racism is a problem of the same magnitude) to admitting to the presence of both overt racial hatred (as evidenced in Charleston and its aftermath) and more subversive, systematic racism. Impressive!

[Dutch]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.