The Beginning of the Death of Online Poker in the US

[Marc Vaughan]

This statement is borderline insulting to anyone who takes poker seriously. Sorry is a child's board game. All this info is in front of you and you have a very basic set of decisions to make, all with having complete knowledge of your opponents pieces.

Not meaning to be insulting - but I think you underestimate 'Sorry' - it can be played strategically (like poker) and is largely under your control with an element of chance (again like poker) ... you can using maths and probability turn things slightly to your advantage (again like poker).

What you fail to understand is over time if you are more skilled at all the things I just mentioned, none of which involves luck at all, it is impossible to lose. That is how the Phil Ivey's of the world make millions at it and were doing it long before sponsorships. They are just better than everyone else.

I agree that with physical tells involved Poker talent is more obvious - but online such things are largely removed from the equation taking out one of the larger elements.

I will also speak from experience as someone who has been playing for 17 years, including paying a good chunk of college tuition, among other things from winnings. There are times when you sit at a table and withing 30 minutes you know you are they best player. It isn't a matter of feeling "lucky," you know you are more skilled and short of other players getting lucky you can't lose. Play at that table long enough and you can't lose, the math and skill eventually take over.

There is definitely 'some' skill to poker, don't get me wrong and playing against people who are inept at it or feeling impulsive a good player can normally beat them BUT its not 100% certain (whereas competing against a world class sprinter for instance you've no chance ever unless he's got a broken leg) - thats all I'm indicating is that I don't believe its got as large an element of skill as most other games which are considered 'skill based'.

For instance 'Backgammon' is a popular means of gambling in some countries* - its similar in basis to the game 'Sorry' which you called a 'kids game' and ridiculed .. yet people believe thats skill based and so bet huge amounts on it ...

Is it skill based, yes to some degree, there is strategy involved and better players will generally beat worse players - so similar to poker in that respect ... but again there is a large element of luck once you get above a certain level of talent in it.


I enjoy playing Poker myself, I'm not great at it - but sometimes I can recognise when players are poor and when they'll be milked by others; however I don't see this as that far different than playing Backgammon or Sorry against my sons - I can beat them nearly every time if I wanted to; just by analyzing the probabilities involved and playing towards them.

When I play poker I play probabilities and use aggression to intimidate opponents into giving in, when playing board games against my family they will sometimes gang up on me (especially at Risk) and in those cases I'll use exactly the same sort of approach - again do I view Risk as a game of skill, partially - however not in the same manner as say Chess or a mainstream sport.

(thats all I was trying to say)

*Give http://www.thegoodgamblingguide.co.u...backgammon.htm a read ...

[CleBrownsfan]

Not really sure what regulations have changed for the state of Ohio but I am now unable to use e-checks for a deposit on PokerStars. Looks like my online poker days are all but over

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by CleBrownsfan

Not really sure what regulations have changed for the state of Ohio but I am now unable to use e-checks for a deposit on PokerStars. Looks like my online poker days are all but over

There are some pre paid gift cards you can use. There is one from Netspend that works IIRC.

[Lathum]

dola- I would check 2+2, if something did change you can likely find what did on there. In either the legislature forum or the internet poker forum.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Total sidenote, but I'll be helping Greg Raymer run a poker seminar here in KC next week. It's over at the Microsoft campus here in KC. He'll do a teaching segment and then have a full tournament with some prizes being awarded by Microsoft. Should be fun.

[CleBrownsfan]

Thanks Lathum - I'll have to check that out...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Total sidenote, but I'll be helping Greg Raymer run a poker seminar here in KC next week. It's over at the Microsoft campus here in KC. He'll do a teaching segment and then have a full tournament with some prizes being awarded by Microsoft. Should be fun.

Very cool!

I have heard he is about as nice a guy as there is.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Very cool!

I have heard he is about as nice a guy as there is.

Definitely is. I haven't seen him turn down many appearances despite his busy schedule. Does a good job of scheduling family time as well. Great dad.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Total sidenote, but I'll be helping Greg Raymer run a poker seminar here in KC next week. It's over at the Microsoft campus here in KC. He'll do a teaching segment and then have a full tournament with some prizes being awarded by Microsoft. Should be fun.

That sounds like an awesome experience - fantastic

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Thought I'd toss up some pics. Greg and I before the event starts......



Greg chatting with the table about his fossil that he used for the event. Said it came from Morocco originally......



Signed his fossil and gave it to the lady who knocked him out.........



He gave me a pair of his signature glasses that he wore during the event. If you ever get a chance to meet him, do so. I've met and chatted with him on several occasions and he's as down-to-earth as you'll ever find in poker. Just a really nice guy.

[Radii]

good stuff

[HeavyReign]

The websites for Pokerstars, Full Tilt, and UB were seized by the FBI today. People going nuts over at 2+2.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...852516194.html

[Lathum]

I'm at work so I can't acess 2+2 but I can only imagine. Thank god bodog is so shitty I can still play there.

[RainMaker]

Thank god we are finally going after serious criminals. With this and Barry Bonds taken care of, I can finally sleep well tonight.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Thank god we are finally going after serious criminals. With this and Barry Bonds taken care of, I can finally sleep well tonight.

Sure, because gambling has NEVER caused serious, major problems before.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Sure, because gambling has NEVER caused serious, major problems before.

What people do in their own home, with their own money, is their business.

Especially when they can drive down the street and legally partake in the same activity.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Thank god we are finally going after serious criminals. With this and Barry Bonds taken care of, I can finally sleep well tonight.

A glass half full kind of person can at least take some small solace in the fact that Absolute Poker is one of the ones hit.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Sure, because gambling has NEVER caused serious, major problems before.

I heard it caused the financial collapse. Glad we are finally putting these criminals behind bars for good.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I can't tell who's being serious, who's being sarcastic, and who's just being a dick.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I can't tell who's being serious, who's being sarcastic, and who's just being a dick.

I'm being serious. Absolute Poker had a massive cheating scandal a few years back where it was revealed that a couple people who work for the site including one very very high up (I forget if it was the CEO but it was damn close if not) had access to accounts that showed all hole cards and were taking large amounts of money with these accounts.

They suffered virtually no repercussions for it. Fuck them.

[Marmel]

Online poker and gambling should be perfectly legal in the states, but these guys who got shut down (see Radii's post) are all dirtbags and I'm glad they are getting nailed.

[MJ4H]

Yowza, this is not good.

[larrymcg421]

I'm a big supporter of online poker but it sounds like (if the accusations in the article are true) the sites were doing some shady things to get around existing laws. There's no reason the FBI shouldn't have taken action.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm being serious. Absolute Poker had a massive cheating scandal a few years back where it was revealed that a couple people who work for the site including one very very high up (I forget if it was the CEO but it was damn close if not) had access to accounts that showed all hole cards and were taking large amounts of money with these accounts.

They suffered virtually no repercussions for it. Fuck them.

I remember that happening. Out of the past few comments, yours was the only one that I could 100% put in the serious, sarcastic, or dick category. The others? Not so much.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Whoo......2+2 server is slowing to a CRAWL!

[digamma]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'm a big supporter of online poker but it sounds like (if the accusations in the article are true) the sites were doing some shady things to get around existing laws.

Like existing and serving US customers?

There's no reason the FBI shouldn't have taken action.

Well, the administration could certainly make a policy judgment to reduce the staff, time and budget devoted to enforcing the UIGEA.

[lcjjdnh]

Originally Posted by digamma

Like existing and serving US customers?



Well, the administration could certainly make a policy judgment to reduce the staff, time and budget devoted to enforcing the UIGEA.

About to say something similar. People break laws all the time, even as simple as speeding, littering, etc. They don't always gets punished. Prosecutors need to make choices about how to most efficiently allocate our resources when it comes to enforcement.

[stevew]

Does this mean that everyone lost all their money, too?

[HeavyReign]

Online poker has been one of the major other sources of income for me. Needless to say I'm applying for a bunch of jobs today. It will be interesting to see how difficult it is to get money out in the near future.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by stevew

Does this mean that everyone lost all their money, too?

I doubt it.

Someone who has better access can correcrt me, but my understanding is just the website and domain was shut down, not the ability to use the software and play.

[HeavyReign]

Software still works. I was able to log in and request a withdrawal. I've seen people mention that Pokerstars is preventing US players from joining tables but can't confirm. Full tilt will still let you play right now.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Funny, I can get to both the Full Tilt and PokerStars websites from the browser on my phone. So what's this about the websites being shut down?

[HeavyReign]

DNS servers take up to 48 hours to update. Absolutepoker is the only website showing the seizure notice for me right now.

[RainMaker]

Creepy how the U.S. can go and shutdown businesses in other countries without being convicted of a single crime.

[CU Tiger]

and full tilt's software is now down.
When I launch it gives the software update is required then fails to find the server...worked fine around lunch time

[Comey]

That may be a smaller issue, CU. I am on Tilt now (I logged in when I saw your comment). I also sat down at a cash table and was able to get chips.

[Lathum]

Just tried starting Full Tilt and the same happened for me as CU Tiger

[RainMaker]

Not sure if I've mentioned it, but one of the reasons it's personal for me is that my company does work for Full Tilt. Not enough to signifigantly hurt the company, but money is still money. Just wondering if they'll avoid everything in the U.S. going forward and if we'll be able to get paid for outstanding work.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Just wondering if they'll avoid everything in the U.S. going forward and if we'll be able to get paid for outstanding work.

Given their somewhat shaky status in the U.S. I certainly hope your company didn't let them get too much past 30 days outstanding.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Given their somewhat shaky status in the U.S. I certainly hope your company didn't let them get too much past 30 days outstanding.

No, I don't think so. I don't think our transactions would come under any scrutiny since everything we did for them was legal. It's not like we got paid by some shady 3rd party bank.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No, I don't think so. I don't think our transactions would come under any scrutiny since everything we did for them was legal. It's not like we got paid by some shady 3rd party bank.

I figured it was up & up, I was just thinking about limiting the exposure to eventually unrecoverable billing.

In media, there's three categories of clients who always have to pay cash up front for advertising: bars, lawyers, and politicians. I'm thinking that online poker services might need to be a 4th for pretty much everyone

[Ragone]

good thing i got my money out a few weeks back.. had to pay for the family trip to disneyland.. paid in full thanks to online poker.. whew.. sucks though.. i generally put 50 bucks into account in january and play sit and gos to get cash up for a vacation..

[Lathum]

So has anyone tried sitting at a ring game or entering a sit and go?

[RainMaker]

Yeah, it's just part of business I guess. You'll always have some clients who are not able to pay. I personally will never touch a lawyer and would turn any work down no matter how much they want to pay. A company I used to work for used to deal with them from time to time and it never ended well.

In fairness to them though, they are a solid company. People look at some of the old gambling sites and think shady offshore companies, but not them (and not most of the others). They are based in Ireland and have a professional setup. Always paid quick, been real professional, and a pleasure to work with. I've dealt with countless other companies, including well-known names that have been much more difficult.

Edit: As I was writing that response I got to see an ad for the local riverboat casino followed by one for the Illinois Lottery. Thought that was funny.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, it's just part of business I guess. You'll always have some clients who are not able to pay. I personally will never touch a lawyer and would turn any work down no matter how much they want to pay. A company I used to work for used to deal with them from time to time and it never ended well.

And on the other end of things, a regional/national firm that we've worked with occasionally over the past few years are one of the easiest clients we've ever dealt with AND the most reliably prompt at paying their bills (because they're accustomed to paying in advance, anything else seems like a bonus to them).

In fairness to them though, they are a solid company.

Yeah, my thought was more along the lines of having assets frozen or being unable to pay through circumstances beyond their control.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So has anyone tried sitting at a ring game or entering a sit and go?

I'm playing .50/1 on Tilt right now. Tried to cash out and was denied. So, they're play chips to me now.

[Radii]

I started up a withdrawl on full tilt around 6:30, not declined yet! I'm thinking back to the Neteller shutdown here, it was months and months, but everyone got their money eventually.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Comey

I'm playing .50/1 on Tilt right now. Tried to cash out and was denied. So, they're play chips to me now.

Thx, still getting through the 2+2 thread but seems like a lot of people not able to sit in any cash games

[Ragone]

you all do realize that this has probably started a run on all poker sites of people trying to get their money out.. akin to the banking runs of the great depression.. should be interesting to see how this pans out..

[lcjjdnh]

Originally Posted by Ragone

you all do realize that this has probably started a run on all poker sites of people trying to get their money out.. akin to the banking runs of the great depression.. should be interesting to see how this pans out..

Not quite the same thing. When banks take deposits, they don't let the money sit around doing nothing, they loan it out. The bank has far less money on hand then it would need to pay every depositor.

At most times, though, that's not a problem, because only a fraction of depositors want to withdraw their deposits at any given time. But when everyone wants to withdraw, the bank's weakness is exposed: it has short-term liabilities (deposits) and long-term assets (loans). Depositors have the right to take back their money whenever they want; the bank can't demand people pay back their loans. Because the bank has only a fraction of the money it needs on hand, if people get worried about its condition, it can create a "run" on the bank, even though the bank itself is otherwise safe-everyone wants to get their cash before the bank runs out of what it has on hand. (Insurance deposit, of course, solves this problem because depositors don't need to worry if the bank fails. They get their money back no matter what).

So, to get back to the situation here, it shouldn't be an issue. PokerStars should have all the money on hand-it's not lending money out. Even if everyone withdrew at the same time, it wouldn't create a problem. The only impediment will be whatever the legal issues are, not the mere fact that everyone is trying to take their money out.