WW LII -- Clue (SOCIALITES WIN) - Page 9

Telle · 08-15-2007, 04:10 PM

I'm leaving work soon so I'm going to put in my vote..

VOTE NO LYNCH

DaddyTorgo · 08-15-2007, 04:12 PM

order submitted

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:13 PM

Hrm, yeah the next couple hours may well be hectic with dinner and errands to run.

VOTE NO LYNCH

just because its already a landslide. Why fight fate.

DaddyTorgo · 08-15-2007, 04:14 PM

RendeR...might be helpful if you posted that along with like...the available choices for all the different things? i know i just had 3 windows open to send in my action (1 pm to Pass, 1 on page 1, and one on telle's list).

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

My point being, who really cares if all the socialites win or if just one does?

I see it as the whole village wins (we get all the wolves)

Or we have a village hero (makes the correct accusation)

I don't see how either of those is a bad thing? Seriously.

100% with you here, Render. People going for the individual victory to the point that they are completely unhelpful to the rest of the village are selfish gits, IMO. If the wolves and murderer are dead, we villagers all win, and I could give a flying crap if Pass says "X Player wins, you all lose" (no offense emant, Pass).

Schmidty · 08-15-2007, 04:21 PM

Back from lunch.

No Lynch

This is the only game I would ever do this in, as I HATE No Lynches.

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

RendeR...might be helpful if you posted that along with like...the available choices for all the different things? i know i just had 3 windows open to send in my action (1 pm to Pass, 1 on page 1, and one on telle's list).

What is it you want me to post? Telle's list has the same info mine does, or are you looking for the complete lists of each group of info along with what we know thus far?

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I am very inclined to have a team victory, but if some other socialite makes an accusation and wins, I will feel like I've lost. Especially considering that there was a way for me to have won.

Yup, and there's the disconnect for me. People who think like this and me are two completely different people, and I don't understand them. No offense, BK, different shakes, you know? But I don't understand this thinking. It's just not the way my mind works.

DaddyTorgo · 08-15-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

What is it you want me to post? Telle's list has the same info mine does, or are you looking for the complete lists of each group of info along with what we know thus far?

not for me mind you. my order is already in. but the second maybe? i mean if you have it handy and you can just cut n paste or whatever. if not...hell...we're all big boys. someone else can do it or people can do their own legwork.

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yup, and there's the disconnect for me. People who think like this and me are two completely different people, and I don't understand them. No offense, BK, different shakes, you know? But I don't understand this thinking. It's just not the way my mind works.

Its like there are two groups of people, those that have to BE the hero or feel like they failed, and those who simply want to find a hero wether it is themselves or someone else in their group.

I'm in the latter group, as long as the winner is on the good side, I'm jazzed.

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:32 PM

Bold items we have been told are NOT the murder weapon.

Quote:

Weapons

Rope

Lead Pipe

Knife

Revolver

Wrench

Candlestick

Poison

Hammer

Frying Pan

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:35 PM

There are also 2 people that say they have weapon clues but have not given them out as yet.

Schmidty · 08-15-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Anyone advocating a bandawagon accusation is either a fool or a wolf.

I freaking HATE BS like that, and it makes me lose respect for people that use that card, even if they are good or bad. There are many ways to play the game without being blatantly insulting. I have gotten mad in the past, and understand people being vociferous and emphatic, but to call people names because they don't agree with you is garbage.

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 04:35 PM

Barkeep suggested it earlier, and I agree with him on the need for a lynch. We need to be able to verify information from people, and right now, death is the only way to do it.

I understand where Alan is coming from, but I don't think it works as well with this game, because in the other games we weren't given all of this information to start, and there was very limited value in lynching. In this game, though, there is value.

Too many people have voted for No Lynch, so I suspect it will be for naught, but I also have said I would hold as most wolfish those who hold their information. I have to make that threat real if I am to be taken seriously.

My three prime "resistance" candidates are Lathum, saldana and st.cronin. Lathum, of course, had to leave the game. I think st.cronin is more likely right now to be a bad guy than saldana.

So...

LYNCH ST.CRONIN

Schmidty · 08-15-2007, 04:37 PM

So anyway, other than knowing who Mrs. Peacock is, I know 3 socialites who do NOT commit the murder. Should I share, or not?

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:38 PM

Code:

             Rooms   
     Lounge    Den    Parlor Room      Library   
     Basement    Hall    Kitchen    Study   
     Ballroom    Dining Room    Bathroom    Livingroom   
     Conservatory    Billiard Room    Bedroom    Attic

Items in bold italics are NOT the locations, there are 7(yes SEVEN) more rooms that people are not giving out as yet.

We could be down to 2 weapons and 3 rooms tonight and possibly have the murder mapped by day 2.

Players to come.

Schmidty · 08-15-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmidty

So anyway, other than knowing who Mrs. Peacock is, I know 3 socialites who do NOT commit the murder. Should I share, or not?

That should be "did NOT", as opposed to "Do NOT".

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmidty

So anyway, other than knowing who Mrs. Peacock is, I know 3 socialites who do NOT commit the murder. Should I share, or not?

Yes, please share Schmidty. I had you as a clue so I trust your information.

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I freaking HATE BS like that, and it makes me lose respect for people that use that card, even if they are good or bad. There are many ways to play the game without being blatantly insulting. I have gotten mad in the past, and understand people being vociferous and emphatic, but to call people names because they don't agree with you is garbage.

keep reading the thread and get over it, I explained that I wasn't trying to be insulting later on.

Schmidty · 08-15-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Yes, please share Schmidty. I had you as a clue so I trust your information.

The murder was not committed by Neon_Chaos, Barkeep49, or Swaggs.

Schmidty · 08-15-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

keep reading the thread and get over it, I explained that I wasn't trying to be insulting later on.

Again with the snide crap. Bah, whatever. Let's play the game.

DaddyTorgo · 08-15-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmidty

So anyway, other than knowing who Mrs. Peacock is, I know 3 socialites who do NOT commit the murder. Should I share, or not?

YES

everyone agrees people-information needs to be shared. preferably ASAP so i can change my night-action before i leave work

DaddyTorgo · 08-15-2007, 04:44 PM

dola

i see you're one step ahead of me. thanks schmidt-man...none of those people were the person i chose so it's all good.

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Lathum	Not Murderer
st.cronin
Jonathan Ezarik	Not Murderer
Swaggs	Not Murderer
Chief Rum
path12
DaddyTorgo	Not Murderer
LoneStarGirl	Not Murderer
Barkeep49	Not Murderer
oliegirl	Not Murderer
Neon_Chaos	Not Murderer
SnDvls	Not Murderer
saldana	Not Murderer
ntndeacon
Crim
RendeR	Not Murderer
Schmidty	Not Murderer
Telle	Not Murderer
Alan T

Please let me know if I have something wrong in my lists.

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 04:58 PM

Now as for how trustworthy the data is, I can only point out that the only person with a good reason to lie is the murderer, and as we go through night 1 guesses and get responses from PASS we should be able to detect lies that came out.

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Now as for how trustworthy the data is, I can only point out that the only person with a good reason to lie is the murderer, and as we go through night 1 guesses and get responses from PASS we should be able to detect lies that came out.

I wouldn't accept it all on faith. It needs corroboration.

No, the wolves don't need to lie, but why would they tell the truth either? Even if there is no reason in the rules for them to lie, I could see them lying simple because they're wolves and we're villagers.

And it has already been shown we have some more selfish people here who only want the individual victory. It's a sad statement that I must admit these people are in the game and might be lying as well.

No, we need to build on what we have. Nothing is certain unless we have at least two separate people to corroborate it (and even then it will depend on the people furnishing the clues).

ntndeacon · 08-15-2007, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

True enough SC, but think about it. IF the villagers all pool their information and do so with anything new they find on night 1, he could be accused and the game over on day 2. its probably a longshot, but with so many socialites it IS possible if we pool all our knowledge.

If that happens, the wolves lose. I can't fathom the wolves taking a chance on losing day 2. I just can't see the logic in leaving ANY loophole that shortens the game against them. If I were a wolf I'd already have sent in the PM to kill him and spread the kill spots out to cover all but 1 room *assuming 3 wolves, if there are 4, he's dead*

Why do you assume that they can cover all but one room? Just from the fact they can each cover 5/16th of the rooms? This is clearly NOT the case SInce I was bored at work I tried to come up with a plan to do what you are saying and failed. With the assumption of 3 wolves, I only saw ways for them to cover 13/16 ths of the rooms. of course this isn't much better odds, but is a little.

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

Why do you assume that they can cover all but one room? Just from the fact they can each cover 5/16th of the rooms? This is clearly NOT the case SInce I was bored at work I tried to come up with a plan to do what you are saying and failed. With the assumption of 3 wolves, I only saw ways for them to cover 13/16 ths of the rooms. of course this isn't much better odds, but is a little.

Really? I'll have to give this a shot. I had thought I had worked in my mind how they could do it, but I'll be happy if I am wrong.

What if there are four wolves, though?

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 05:15 PM

Four wolves, they could get it all. You're right, though, it only works out to 13/16. Still, practically an automatic kill, but at least there's a little more of a chance of survival.

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 05:15 PM

13/16 with three wolves, that is.

ntndeacon · 08-15-2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

I understand exactly what you're saying, what I'm saying is that isn't a requirement for me, i don't care how the good guys win or WHICH good guy wins as long as NONE of the bad guys win.

I'd love to catch all the wolves and get the murderer too, that'd be great, but if we can get a good guy win without having to do ALL of that and costing the lives of god's know how many socialites. I think thats a BETTER answer.

Less death == BETTER than more death and a fluffy chest for having caught all the goobers.

You're way is fine if you could care less how many of us get crushed under foot so it can happen. I'd rather have 12+ villagers alive and the game won personally. That is a VILLAGE victory, having a whole VILLAGE left alive.

Not sure why you're against that.

No. That is not a village victory. In terms of this game it is an individual victory in that case. If I put in the winning accusation or Crim or olliegirl, and you don't. you lose.

SnDvls · 08-15-2007, 05:31 PM

Okay I feel there is enough information out there that I can release my player info.

I know path is not the murderer...I'll continue to hold onto my room location at this time.

Alan T · 08-15-2007, 05:32 PM

I fully encourage Mr.Green to make use of the player list that is available. I see that it seems like most people are disagreeing with my point of view here, but I think if we keep sharing murderer clues, we'll enable Mr.Green to do his job to narrow down the murderer as well as tell us if someone else lied.

Even though I am on the list of people that haven't been cleared as murderer, I think its a good thing that the list is narrowed down for Mr.green. I also think Mr.Green should reveal as soon as he finds the murderer so we can lynch him.

PASSACAGLIA - one more question.. what happens if someone makes an accusation for the murderer, are correct but we lynch the murderer before the 12 hours are up? Does the lynch supercede the accusation, or do we still lose the game?

SnDvls · 08-15-2007, 05:33 PM

we also need to realize that just because a person isn't the murderer doesn't mean they aren't a wolf correct?

Passacaglia · 08-15-2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

PASSACAGLIA - one more question.. what happens if someone makes an accusation for the murderer, are correct but we lynch the murderer before the 12 hours are up? Does the lynch supercede the accusation, or do we still lose the game?

The person making the accusation wins at the time the murderer is lynched.

Alan T · 08-15-2007, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

we also need to realize that just because a person isn't the murderer doesn't mean they aren't a wolf correct?

Correct, the rules say the wolves got initial clues as well. Thats why when I originally suggested for us to all share the clues, I made sure to state that we couldn't give trust to anyone for doing so.

All we do with the clues is narrow down who the murderer is either to lynch him or to lose the game if someone makes a correct accusation and we don't

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

No. That is not a village victory. In terms of this game it is an individual victory in that case. If I put in the winning accusation or Crim or olliegirl, and you don't. you lose.

ntn, be sure to recognize the potato-potAto discussion going on here. The results are the sim. What is different is how different people view them. Perhaps you see that as a loss. Render doesn't.

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 05:39 PM

Results are the same, that is.

ntndeacon · 08-15-2007, 05:54 PM

oh by the way Crim is not the murderer

Neon_Chaos · 08-15-2007, 05:56 PM

Jeez. With Mrs. White, the Murderer, and the Wolves... we might have a potential 4-5 dead. Yeesh.

Neon_Chaos · 08-15-2007, 05:56 PM

I meant in one given night.

Passacaglia · 08-15-2007, 06:02 PM

The line is dead.

Passacaglia · 08-15-2007, 06:14 PM

Vote Count:

NO LYNCH 14 -- st.cronin (98), Alan T (114), Neon_Chaos (117), DaddyTorgo (122), Crim (251), Jonathan Ezarik (263), Swaggs (265), ntndeacon (266), LoneStarGirl (324), path12 (338), SnDvls (367), Telle (401), RendeR (403), Schmidty (406)
st.cronin 1 -- Chief Rum (414)
Neon_Chaos 1 -- oliegirl (327)

A couple people shout out names of who we might be the murderer, or maybe a wolf, but for the most part, the socialites are content to gather their clues.

You spend the night sometimes sleeping, but mostly sneaking around for more clues. But, when you wake up, you realize that two people are missing.

You all run to the Basement, where you find that Jonathan Ezarik has been eaten by wolves! Looking through his belongings, you see nothing out of the ordinary. Jonathan Ezarik was a Socialite!

When you return, you find that Lathum has been murdered. Again, looking through his things, you find nothing special. Lathum was a Socialite!

A bit shaken, you dust yourselves off, and try to see what sort of discussion awaits you today.

(JE, now that you're dead, your next assignment is to find out if this is the longest Day 1 we've ever had).

saldana · 08-15-2007, 06:18 PM

gang, bunch of crap came up at work and i just walked in the door, sorry i missed the deadline

fwiw, i would have voted no lynch. (not like it would have mattered)

i will be out tonight as well, but should be able to catch up during the morning and day tomorrow....sorry again...my job blows

SnDvls · 08-15-2007, 06:19 PM

I can verify that the revolver was not the murder weapon

oliegirl · 08-15-2007, 06:21 PM

And I can verify that the victim wasn't poisoned

Alan T · 08-15-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I can verify that the revolver was not the murder weapon

I know another room that was not where the murder happened. However until someone convinces me why that is useful to give out I won't do so.

RendeR · 08-15-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

I know another room that was not where the murder happened. However until someone convinces me why that is useful to give out I won't do so.

If I say please?

SnDvls · 08-15-2007, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

I know another room that was not where the murder happened. However until someone convinces me why that is useful to give out I won't do so.

you're keeping your info for probally the same reasons I am on a room.

Chief Rum · 08-15-2007, 06:30 PM

I also found a room where the murder did not happen, but I am not immediately sharing for an entirely separate reason. I found a secret passageway from it to another room, and it was not the room I anticipated.

Meaning that how we judge the "adjacent rooms" for rooms on the edge could very well be flawed.

BTW, knowing his situation, I won't harp too much on Lathum's passing here, but it should be noted that in dying, he takes his information with him. Information he could have freely offered up before this came to pass.

08-15-2007, 04:13 PM	#403
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	Hrm, yeah the next couple hours may well be hectic with dinner and errands to run. VOTE NO LYNCH just because its already a landslide. Why fight fate. __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

08-15-2007, 04:35 PM	#412
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	There are also 2 people that say they have weapon clues but have not given them out as yet. __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

08-15-2007, 04:58 PM	#425
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	Now as for how trustworthy the data is, I can only point out that the only person with a good reason to lie is the murderer, and as we go through night 1 guesses and get responses from PASS we should be able to detect lies that came out. __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

08-15-2007, 05:56 PM	#440
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	Jeez. With Mrs. White, the Murderer, and the Wolves... we might have a potential 4-5 dead. Yeesh. __________________ Come and see.

08-15-2007, 05:56 PM	#441
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	I meant in one given night. __________________ Come and see.

08-15-2007, 04:10 PM	#401
Telle College Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Buffalo, NY	I'm leaving work soon so I'm going to put in my vote.. VOTE NO LYNCH

08-15-2007, 04:12 PM	#402
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	order submitted

08-15-2007, 04:14 PM	#404
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	RendeR...might be helpful if you posted that along with like...the available choices for all the different things? i know i just had 3 windows open to send in my action (1 pm to Pass, 1 on page 1, and one on telle's list).

08-15-2007, 04:21 PM	#406
Schmidty Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Early, TX	Back from lunch. No Lynch This is the only game I would ever do this in, as I HATE No Lynches.

08-15-2007, 04:35 PM	#414
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Barkeep suggested it earlier, and I agree with him on the need for a lynch. We need to be able to verify information from people, and right now, death is the only way to do it. I understand where Alan is coming from, but I don't think it works as well with this game, because in the other games we weren't given all of this information to start, and there was very limited value in lynching. In this game, though, there is value. Too many people have voted for No Lynch, so I suspect it will be for naught, but I also have said I would hold as most wolfish those who hold their information. I have to make that threat real if I am to be taken seriously. My three prime "resistance" candidates are Lathum, saldana and st.cronin. Lathum, of course, had to leave the game. I think st.cronin is more likely right now to be a bad guy than saldana. So... LYNCH ST.CRONIN

08-15-2007, 04:37 PM	#415
Schmidty Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Early, TX	So anyway, other than knowing who Mrs. Peacock is, I know 3 socialites who do NOT commit the murder. Should I share, or not?

08-15-2007, 04:44 PM	#423
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	dola i see you're one step ahead of me. thanks schmidt-man...none of those people were the person i chose so it's all good.

08-15-2007, 05:15 PM	#429
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Four wolves, they could get it all. You're right, though, it only works out to 13/16. Still, practically an automatic kill, but at least there's a little more of a chance of survival.

08-15-2007, 05:15 PM	#430
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	13/16 with three wolves, that is.

08-15-2007, 05:31 PM	#432
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	Okay I feel there is enough information out there that I can release my player info. I know path is not the murderer...I'll continue to hold onto my room location at this time.

08-15-2007, 05:32 PM	#433
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	I fully encourage Mr.Green to make use of the player list that is available. I see that it seems like most people are disagreeing with my point of view here, but I think if we keep sharing murderer clues, we'll enable Mr.Green to do his job to narrow down the murderer as well as tell us if someone else lied. Even though I am on the list of people that haven't been cleared as murderer, I think its a good thing that the list is narrowed down for Mr.green. I also think Mr.Green should reveal as soon as he finds the murderer so we can lynch him. PASSACAGLIA - one more question.. what happens if someone makes an accusation for the murderer, are correct but we lynch the murderer before the 12 hours are up? Does the lynch supercede the accusation, or do we still lose the game?

08-15-2007, 05:33 PM	#434
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	we also need to realize that just because a person isn't the murderer doesn't mean they aren't a wolf correct?

08-15-2007, 05:39 PM	#438
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Results are the same, that is.

08-15-2007, 05:54 PM	#439
ntndeacon Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Alabama	oh by the way Crim is not the murderer

08-15-2007, 06:02 PM	#442
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	The line is dead.

08-15-2007, 06:14 PM	#443
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	Vote Count: NO LYNCH 14 -- st.cronin (98), Alan T (114), Neon_Chaos (117), DaddyTorgo (122), Crim (251), Jonathan Ezarik (263), Swaggs (265), ntndeacon (266), LoneStarGirl (324), path12 (338), SnDvls (367), Telle (401), RendeR (403), Schmidty (406) st.cronin 1 -- Chief Rum (414) Neon_Chaos 1 -- oliegirl (327) A couple people shout out names of who we might be the murderer, or maybe a wolf, but for the most part, the socialites are content to gather their clues. You spend the night sometimes sleeping, but mostly sneaking around for more clues. But, when you wake up, you realize that two people are missing. You all run to the Basement, where you find that Jonathan Ezarik has been eaten by wolves! Looking through his belongings, you see nothing out of the ordinary. Jonathan Ezarik was a Socialite! When you return, you find that Lathum has been murdered. Again, looking through his things, you find nothing special. Lathum was a Socialite! A bit shaken, you dust yourselves off, and try to see what sort of discussion awaits you today. (JE, now that you're dead, your next assignment is to find out if this is the longest Day 1 we've ever had).

08-15-2007, 06:18 PM	#444
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	gang, bunch of crap came up at work and i just walked in the door, sorry i missed the deadline fwiw, i would have voted no lynch. (not like it would have mattered) i will be out tonight as well, but should be able to catch up during the morning and day tomorrow....sorry again...my job blows

08-15-2007, 06:19 PM	#445
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	I can verify that the revolver was not the murder weapon

08-15-2007, 06:30 PM	#450
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	I also found a room where the murder did not happen, but I am not immediately sharing for an entirely separate reason. I found a secret passageway from it to another room, and it was not the room I anticipated. Meaning that how we judge the "adjacent rooms" for rooms on the edge could very well be flawed. BTW, knowing his situation, I won't harp too much on Lathum's passing here, but it should be noted that in dying, he takes his information with him. Information he could have freely offered up before this came to pass.

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