NFL Week 4 Discussion Thread: McNabb returns to Philly..

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Not to mention Favre's reported love affair with playing with Moss and the Vikings' proven desire to coddle him when possible.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by molson

And he hasn't destroyed the Patriots locker room in the last three years or whatever the risk was.

This is what I don't get about your posts. Are you agreeing or disagreed that 3rd round pick is approrpriate value?

[stevew]

Will the Vikings still be broadcast in South Carolina cause of sidney Rice, tho?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

This is what I don't get about your posts. Are you agreeing or disagreed that 3rd round pick is approrpriate value?

I think it's the best, or about the best, you're going to get for him regardless of what's going on with Moss in the locker room right now.

But I'm mostly responding to the idea that Pats fans are clueless or in denial about Moss or something, or that it's ridiculous to say positive things about him, when he's clearly been great for them, both on and off the field (as evidenced by the fact that his draft value has gone up, or stayed the same, when he's 3 years older.)

[TroyF]

I think NFL contracts suck in some ways and are good in others.

It really depends on the team. A vast majority of teams reward players who outplay rookie deals and the like and give them fair market contracts with pretty big bonuses. (all of the signing bonus is a given don't forget)

When a team doesn't reward players for outplaying their rookie deals and give them fair market value, they are horrible. (Vincent Jackson is an example in my eyes of a guy who deserved more than he made and got screwed over by the organization who now won't even deal him)

The contracts in basketball and baseball are horrible for the organizations. They give the player too much power once they are signed. "I signed this 10 year 110 million dollar contract, I'm shuttin it down and you owe me EVERY dime"

I would rather have kind of a merged system. A palyer signs a deal and if a team wishes to cut ties with him they pay him half of the remainder on his contract and cut him loose. So Kenyon Martin signs a 7 year 92 million dollar contract with Denver. He has micro fracture after the second year. He's made 26 million on his deal so far. There is 66 million left on his deal. If the Nuggets wish to get out of the remaining five years of the deal, they are required to pay him 33 million dollars. (which could be paid out over the life of the regular deal) The player then gets to sign for as much as he can with someone else.

To me that gives teams the ability to get out of horrific deals while at the same time ensuring athletes get a good chunk of pay. (it'd be kind of hard to cry for Kenyon when he would be paid over 50 million dollars AND have the right to sign another deal.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

He's saying if Moss were so terrible he'd be getting released right now.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by stevew

Will the Vikings still be broadcast in South Carolina cause of sidney Rice, tho?

LOL, That is seriously why they had the Vikings game on in that area. Do you have a better explanation?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by espn

AccuScore's forecast through four weeks gives the Patriots a 40.4 percent chance of winning the AFC East and a 63.4 percent chance of reaching the playoffs with Moss on the roster.

Without him, their chances drop to 33.2 percent for the division title and 52.9 percent for the postseason.

errr...yikes.

who knows if the numbers are right, but if it happens it's going to mean that welker sees a ton more #1 CB's on him and defenses focused on shutting him down.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I think NFL contracts suck in some ways and are good in others.

It really depends on the team. A vast majority of teams reward players who outplay rookie deals and the like and give them fair market contracts with pretty big bonuses. (all of the signing bonus is a given don't forget)

When a team doesn't reward players for outplaying their rookie deals and give them fair market value, they are horrible. (Vincent Jackson is an example in my eyes of a guy who deserved more than he made and got screwed over by the organization who now won't even deal him)

The contracts in basketball and baseball are horrible for the organizations. They give the player too much power once they are signed. "I signed this 10 year 110 million dollar contract, I'm shuttin it down and you owe me EVERY dime"

I would rather have kind of a merged system. A palyer signs a deal and if a team wishes to cut ties with him they pay him half of the remainder on his contract and cut him loose. So Kenyon Martin signs a 7 year 92 million dollar contract with Denver. He has micro fracture after the second year. He's made 26 million on his deal so far. There is 66 million left on his deal. If the Nuggets wish to get out of the remaining five years of the deal, they are required to pay him 33 million dollars. (which could be paid out over the life of the regular deal) The player then gets to sign for as much as he can with someone else.

To me that gives teams the ability to get out of horrific deals while at the same time ensuring athletes get a good chunk of pay. (it'd be kind of hard to cry for Kenyon when he would be paid over 50 million dollars AND have the right to sign another deal.

Teams dont have to give them these long contracts you know. They do it to themselves in that aspect.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Do you need it spelled out? He wants to be PAID. He's always wanted to be PAID. Winning always has and always will be secondary to the guy. You think after last night he'd have been thrilled to be with a Super Bowl contending team with Brady, right? Wrong. He was/is a time bomb. I think everyone outside of NE saw this at the beginning of the season.

If the Vikings don't get a good QB after Farve, he'll just do what he did with the Raiders. He'll go into shutdown mode. As long as the checks keep coming, he doesn't care.

I'm glad we have folks like you around on this messageboard to spell things out to me. Thanks.

Since Moss is going to be a free agent at the end of the season (and will have the opportunity to get PAID at that time), my question was actually more about the decision, by the Vikings and Moss, to make a long-term commitment at this time (knowing that Favre is likely done and that Moss can probably get PAID twice the money by the Redskins or Cowboys or Jets or Giants as an unrestricted free agent).

If I were him, I would be "demanding" that he doesn't get franchised (if it even exists at the end of the season) rather than an extension.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I hear that the average record of the Patriots in Madden simulations will also go down.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I hear that the average record of the Patriots in Madden simulations will also go down.

lol

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

errr...yikes.

who knows if the numbers are right, but if it happens it's going to mean that welker sees a ton more #1 CB's on him and defenses focused on shutting him down.

I really think though Bellichick just looks at it as another challenge, and really believes that the team can actually be better without Moss. That's his arrogance, and I think that's why he's willing to unload anybody fairly quickly, long before it gets to the point where a guy is refusing to take road trips or whatever.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Teams dont have to give them these long contracts you know. They do it to themselves in that aspect.

Yes, they do. And that's why in my system they don't get out of a bad contract for free. They don't just get to wipe the books clean when they screw up. On the other hand, a player has to play hard to get the full value of the deal. He can't go into shut down mode and get everything he wants. Both parties should have some risk. In baseball/basketball, only the owners are at real risk. In football, the players deal with a majority of the risk. I think it should equalize.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I'm glad we have folks like you around on this messageboard to spell things out to me. Thanks.

Since Moss is going to be a free agent at the end of the season (and will have the opportunity to get PAID at that time), my question was actually more about the decision, by the Vikings and Moss, to make a long-term commitment at this time (knowing that Favre is likely done and that Moss can probably get PAID twice the money by the Redskins or Cowboys or Jets or Giants as an unrestricted free agent).

If I were him, I would be "demanding" that he doesn't get franchised (if it even exists at the end of the season) rather than an extension.

Moss could play out the year in a better situation than he would be going to. The Patriots have a better QB, a better head coach and would likely have went further in the playoffs than the Vikings would have.

He wants his money now, he doesn't want to take the risk of getting hurt or having an off year and hurting his market value. He wants his extension now (along with the bonus that will come with it) He doesn't give a damn if he goes to a worse team to get it, if he has a scrub throwing him the ball next year or if he's traded back to the Raiders. The goal is to get the cash right now.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Yes, they do. And that's why in my system they don't get out of a bad contract for free. They don't just get to wipe the books clean when they screw up. On the other hand, a player has to play hard to get the full value of the deal. He can't go into shut down mode and get everything he wants. Both parties should have some risk. In baseball/basketball, only the owners are at real risk. In football, the players deal with a majority of the risk. I think it should equalize.

I agree. I find it funny that is the NFL that the players deal with the risk being that is the most dangerous sport which is why I tend to take the side of the player over the owner in NFL contract disputes. You even pointed out some examples like Vincent Jackson. Certain owners are just treating their players unfairly. Bellichek as the man in charge is one of the worst at not being very loyal to his players. One of the best QBs the game has ever seen had to wait until his final season to get his extension.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Moss could play out the year in a better situation than he would be going to. The Patriots have a better QB, a better head coach and would likely have went further in the playoffs than the Vikings would have.

He wants his money now, he doesn't want to take the risk of getting hurt or having an off year and hurting his market value. He wants his extension now (along with the bonus that will come with it) He doesn't give a damn if he goes to a worse team to get it, if he has a scrub throwing him the ball next year or if he's traded back to the Raiders. The goal is to get the cash right now.

I think the Pats are in a reloading time. Their defense is brutal. I think Bellichek realizes this.

[stevew]

I wonder if BB rocks this as his Facebook profile picture.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think the Pats are in a reloading time. Their defense is brutal. I think Bellichek realizes this.

I disagree. I think their defense was brutal two years ago. It was better last year. And this year it's probably better again, as the Pats replace the old players with new, young talents like Merriweather, Mayo and Chung.

It's still a defense that needs to mature more, but it's hardly brutal. And if Brady works his magic, the defense only needs to be passable to make the Pats a serious threat again.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I think it's funny that all the talk is of the off-field ramifications of Moss wearing purple again. Is he the player with the cleanest record? No. But he hasn't been the same pain that he was 5 years ago either. He's not alone in what his gripes have been... don't seem to hear all the chatter about Mankins though. Moss is out there on the field for "only" $6 million.

Moss back in Minnesota would change that entire offense. I don't think it would take long for Favre to look his way. His presence alone opens things up for the other receivers and 28 running with one less man in the box is a scary thought. It would also allow Rice to ease back in when he comes back. He won't have to be the savior. Then if he gets back to full strength... Favre throwing to Moss, Rice, Shiancoe, Harvin & even Camarillo? What DC wants to defend that? Oh yeah, remember 28...

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't like the look of the Pats offense without Moss. You're talking making Welker your #1 and Brandon Tate your deep-threat/#2. Edelman your #3. Gronkowski and Hernandez will see less open space because they won't have the threat of Moss deep to clear out underneath for them, Welker will draw #1 corners and probably double-teams...I predict it will look ugly.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but not sure I will be at all.

[Desnudo]

Brady threw deep to Moss a number of times against the Jets, including that crazy one handed catch. He threw 24 times for a total of 153 yards against Miami, so no one had a big game.

He's the second most targeted receiver behind Welker, just like he was last year



Moss' value is depreciated because he only has a half-year left on his contract and he's 33. No one is going to give up a first rounder for a 33-year old player at a speed position.

The move is classic Patriots and Moss' attitude probably has little or nothing to do with it as they've done this over and over again with veterans. They know he won't resign at a value they want to pay, so they'll sacrifice some performance this season for a future gain.

[bhlloy]

Come back off the ledge DT. I think Brandon Tate is easily good enough to replace Moss' 34.8 YPG. We need to employ a full-time FOFC councellor to deal with you every time there is a hint of remotely bad news for a Boston sports team

I don't think Belicheck will ever think his team needs to rebuild, I just think he recognizes that a Randy Moss who doesn't really want to be there any more is not worth having on the field and he's just trying to get value for him now before he has to shut him down in week 10 for not running out his routes and trashing the team in the media. Moss will now go to Minnesota and dominate for the rest of the season - that's just how he works. He needs the slights (real or perceived) and the new start every now and again.

If you are the Vikings, why wouldn't you make this additional gamble? You are already letting it all ride on Favre and the veteran defense. Tell Randy whatever he needs to hear to keep him motivated for the rest of the year and hope it's enough to get you back in the SB discussion.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I disagree. I think their defense was brutal two years ago. It was better last year. And this year it's probably better again, as the Pats replace the old players with new, young talents like Merriweather, Mayo and Chung.

It's still a defense that needs to mature more, but it's hardly brutal. And if Brady works his magic, the defense only needs to be passable to make the Pats a serious threat again.

They are actually worse right now than they were two years ago.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2010 DEFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS

They were 30th prior to this past Dolphins game. Any decent QB will pick that secondary apart. Its not as if they've been playing the best offenses in the world either(Cincy, Jets, Bills, Dolphins)

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I disagree. I think their defense was brutal two years ago. It was better last year. And this year it's probably better again, as the Pats replace the old players with new, young talents like Merriweather, Mayo and Chung.

It's still a defense that needs to mature more, but it's hardly brutal. And if Brady works his magic, the defense only needs to be passable to make the Pats a serious threat again.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

They are actually worse right now than they were two years ago.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2010 DEFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS

They were 30th prior to this past Dolphins game. Any decent QB will pick that secondary apart. Its not as if they've been playing the best offenses in the world either(Cincy, Jets, Bills, Dolphins)

Interesting that you bring up FO where the Patriots are 1st in offensive efficiency and 1st overall (despite getting no credit for the ST blocks since those are considered non-predictive events). Are they a SB favorite? No - FO only has them with a 26% chance for a bye and a 74% chance of making the playoffs, and they definitely have some serious flaws, but in a year with this much parity I think they have as good a chance as anyone right now. One interesting stat regarding the Patriots youth on defense - the league average is 23% of plays by players 25 or younger, and partially due to injuries to Ty Warren and Leigh Bodden the Patriots are at a full 50% through four weeks.

On the rumored trade, I wouldn't put it past Belichick to think he could win without Moss because he has multiple TE's and a RB that runs downhill, but I agree that a lot of those players success is due to the extra room provided by Moss drawing extra help over the top - which Brandon Tate would not draw. The new emphasis on 2 TE sets (~64% of snaps in 2010) at the expense of 3+ WR sets means you don't have as much a need for decent 3rd/4th WR's - not that you can suddenly expect to stay #1 on offense without a #1 WR. And Moss has still been on the field for 80% of the snaps - easily more than any non OL/Tom Brady.

I'll also wait until something is confirmed before assuming that the rumored 3rd round pick is actually accurate - I remember back when we acquired Moss the big rumor was that he was being cut the last day of training camp. 23 regular season TD's, a 16-0 record and a Super Bowl berth later, everyone had forgotten about it, but multiple people (including some of the same ones reporting now) were predicting that at the time. Then of course we weren't going to re-sign Moss in the offseason. Maybe I am misreading this whole situation and TroyF is entirely right - but one part I do know I am right on is that most of the writers reporting shit don't know any more than we do. (Adam Schefter being the notable exception that makes me think the trade is possible.) I do hope that the reason they are contemplating this trade is as much because the Vikings are semi-desperate and willing to overpay and not just that Belichick wants to prove (again) that he can win a SB with an emphasis on schemes and only one all-pro player at QB. Remember - if Moss leaves as a FA, the Patriots don't come away empty-handed, but instead end up with a 3rd or 4th round compensation pick in 2012.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Nope, woke up this morning to see multiple confirmations of a 3rd round pick. So basically they trade 12 games of Moss so they can make that 3rd round pick a year earlier.

This is to get him off the team, stat.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by stevew

Will the Vikings still be broadcast in South Carolina cause of sidney Rice, tho?

As a resident of South Carolina, I sure hope not.

[Thomkal]

Interesting Fact if the Moss trade goes down-The Patriots will have two picks in each of the first four rounds next year.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

(despite getting no credit for the ST blocks since those are considered non-predictive events)

The Dolphins ST coach should have used that line to avoid getting fired. "Not my fault, dudes -- those were non-predictive events!"

[Passacaglia]

A buddy just brought up an interesting point -- Minnesota has 13 games left on their schedule, and NE has already played 4. Would Moss play 17 games?

[stevew]

Mike Rozier did once.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

A buddy just brought up an interesting point -- Minnesota has 13 games left on their schedule, and NE has already played 4. Would Moss play 17 games?

Too bad for his fantasy owners that with his bye last week, they get no additional benefit.

[miked]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Moss could play out the year in a better situation than he would be going to. The Patriots have a better QB, a better head coach and would likely have went further in the playoffs than the Vikings would have.

He wants his money now, he doesn't want to take the risk of getting hurt or having an off year and hurting his market value. He wants his extension now (along with the bonus that will come with it) He doesn't give a damn if he goes to a worse team to get it, if he has a scrub throwing him the ball next year or if he's traded back to the Raiders. The goal is to get the cash right now.

I love how you have become an expert in the inner workings of the minds of both Belichick and Moss. Maybe Moss wasn't causing any problems but the Pats just felt like getting something for him in case he started to whine and distract. Who knows except Moss, Belichick, and the Pats. Oh, and you.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Moss could play out the year in a better situation than he would be going to. The Patriots have a better QB, a better head coach and would likely have went further in the playoffs than the Vikings would have.

He wants his money now, he doesn't want to take the risk of getting hurt or having an off year and hurting his market value. He wants his extension now (along with the bonus that will come with it) He doesn't give a damn if he goes to a worse team to get it, if he has a scrub throwing him the ball next year or if he's traded back to the Raiders. The goal is to get the cash right now.

Getting an extension this year could mean a difference of several million dollars especially if there is no football next year. I could see something along the lines of 4/20 with 8 guaranteed if he signs an extension now. If there's no football in 2011 and he comes back as a 35 year old looking for a contract he might get 2/5 with 1.5 guaranteed.

In a similar situation how many of us would turn down that much money just because you should be loyal to a team that's already made it clear they don't want you after six months?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by miked

I love how you have become an expert in the inner workings of the minds of both Belichick and Moss. Maybe Moss wasn't causing any problems but the Pats just felt like getting something for him in case he started to whine and distract. Who knows except Moss, Belichick, and the Pats. Oh, and you.

Well, I stated before the year started that his comments before the week one game was a first salvo. All the Pats fans jumped on me for being an idiot and stating he'd be fine in NE this year. I was overreacting.

Now he's being shipped out in week 4 with the Patriots 3-1.

I'd bet the house he was being a jerk. A trade demand after week one? Really? Classy guy Randy, classy guy.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Getting an extension this year could mean a difference of several million dollars especially if there is no football next year. I could see something along the lines of 4/20 with 8 guaranteed if he signs an extension now. If there's no football in 2011 and he comes back as a 35 year old looking for a contract he might get 2/5 with 1.5 guaranteed.

In a similar situation how many of us would turn down that much money just because you should be loyal to a team that's already made it clear they don't want you after six months?

Well, if I was in the final year of a 9 million dollar a year contract? I'd honor the damned deal.

[JPhillips]

Good for you. Most of humanity wouldn't bust ass for a guy that's already made it clear he's letting you go especially when doing so will cost you several million dollars.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Seriously!! Call a fucking cab you dumb ass!!!

Another DWI charge for Panthers WR Dwayne Jarrett - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Jarrett has been released and the Panthers have signed David Clowney who the Jets released. Clowney might actually be an improvement there.

Yet another shining example of the Panthers inability to develop WR talent.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Well, if I was in the final year of a 9 million dollar a year contract? I'd honor the damned deal.

Easy to be an outsider and say that.

Imagine you having to go to your current job not knowing if you will have a job next year, having the boss show know no interest in keeping you, and probably realizing you are going to a new company in 6 months. Are you really going to bust your ass for your final 6 months with the company that doesnt want you?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Easy to be an outsider and say that.

Imagine you having to go to your current job not knowing if you will have a job next year, having the boss show know no interest in keeping you, and probably realizing you are going to a new company in 6 months. Are you really going to bust your ass for your final 6 months with the company that doesnt want you?

And if you don't try to leave now you'll make 50% or less of what you could make over the next four or five years.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Jarrett has been released and the Panthers have signed David Clowney who the Jets released. Clowney might actually be an improvement there.

Yet another shining example of the Panthers inability to develop WR talent.

Jarrett got what he deserved. With Smith hurt, do the Panthers really have anyone reliable? Maybe time to make a call to the Chargers, I think Vincent Jackson is available.

I think Smith has developed into a top receiver, but, that's the only one that I can think of though. You definitely need a solid core of WRs or it's just going to kill your quarterbacks.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Jarrett got what he deserved. With Smith hurt, do the Panthers really have anyone reliable? Maybe time to make a call to the Chargers, I think Vincent Jackson is available.

I think Smith has developed into a top receiver, but, that's the only one that I can think of though. You definitely need a solid core of WRs or it's just going to kill your quarterbacks.

They have a couple young guys-including QB Armanti Edwards who they are trying to convert into receiver-that's how badly they need WR's, but nobody good, and Clowney will likely be better than them given his playing time in NY. Trading for Jackson is pointless at this point. They aren't going anywhere this season, and its unlikely Jackson would want to sign with them long-term given their QB situation and likely new coach next year.

[Passacaglia]

Why would the 0-4 Panthers trade anything this season for Vincent Jackson?

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And if you don't try to leave now you'll make 50% or less of what you could make over the next four or five years.

Not to mention you could get injured next Sunday and then have no value at all.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

They have a couple young guys-including QB Armanti Edwards who they are trying to convert into receiver-that's how badly they need WR's, but nobody good, and Clowney will likely be better than them given his playing time in NY. Trading for Jackson is pointless at this point. They aren't going anywhere this season, and its unlikely Jackson would want to sign with them long-term given their QB situation and likely new coach next year.

Ok yes, that makes sense. Didn't know there was that much going on with the Panthers.