Game of Thrones on HBO

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by bob

Stolen from elsewhere:

Over the course of one episode she went from “I’m for the people” to “fuck the people.” It’s not that most people didn’t see her turn. It’s the break-neck speed at which it happened.

Maybe the felt they needed the time to amass the shear volume of destruction to get Jon to turn against her? It seems pretty well set up, Dany + Grey Worm, vs Jon and the Starks + Tyrion.

At the start of the show I was saying to my wife that I hope the whole ring the bells thing didn't turn into a Lannister double cross, but the way that it went I'm wondering if it would have been better to go that way. I didn't see Dany's heel turn coming but probably should have.

[Logan]

I just didn't really like it. Hard to explain I guess, I didn't think Dany's turn was unearned or anything. But I guess it just sort of bummed me out that it was the direction they took so that was the feeling I was left with for pretty much the rest of the episode.

My wife was falling asleep 20 mins in so I'll rewatch it tonight and maybe feel differently this time around.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I definitely want to re-watch it, but I really, really enjoyed that episode. While the buildup to Danaerys becoming a "bad guy" was pretty ham-fistedly obvious, I didn't think they would go full-on mad queen with her. Agree with most in the thread that the ultimate turn felt rushed, but that doesn't bother me so much because of the foreshadowing.

I think if you could take out the sex with Brienne thing that Jaime's arc was pretty much perfect. And the full-on breakdown by Cersei at the end was really, really well done. I'm not sure how much of that scene resonating well with me is because I've seen crippling anxiety attacks in-person several times. Jaime somehow being able to make it all the way to Cersei after two knife-wounds to the guts was pretty lame, but I enjoyed the Euron/Jaime dustup far more than I would have expected, and Euron's final line was incredible.

My biggest gripe from a plot perspective was the absolutely ludicrous thought that Danaerys would allow Tyrion anywhere near Jaime Lannister once he was captured. It allowed for a great scene, but the weight of it was thrown off by the absurdity of its implausibility. I also understand the goofiness of using that word in a show where someone riding a dragon burned down an entire city of 1,000,000 people in less than a day.

Did not enjoy Arya making a journey of incredibly epic proportions to be turned away less than 100 feet from her goal by Sandor Clegane asking her nicely. Seemed super forced. And while I really enjoyed the idea (as whomario posted last page) of using a character to follow around and give some scope to the destruction within the city, I feel like that was much better suited to someone like Davos. I was surprisingly touched by Arya using Sandor's name at the end, though.

Tyrion...feels like a shell of his former self. His scene with Varys at his execution was excellent, and I actually really enjoyed that lead-in. But damn it, Tyrion has made a mistake in literally every decision he has made for two and a half seasons now.

I'm also kind of disappointed that Cersei's big plan was "I hope we shoot down the dragon" with no backup. The political intrigue is just gone, and that's sad because it was such a huge part of the series and done so artfully in the show...while they were working with Martin's source material.

I have more thoughts, but I'll cover them later.

[Izulde]

Re: the Jamie/Cersei mutual death thing - that felt positively Shakespearean tragedy to where I literally thought that to myself as I was watching it. It did indeed feel like a fitting end.

Still not all that bothered by the sex with Brienne thing. It was drunk rebound/relief sex that offered a snapshot what-if scenario for another Jamie route.

Agreed re: Arya using Sandor's name. Nice final bit of humanity before Cleganebowl (which itself was hilarious in a good way - Qyborn getting his neck broken with a single toss by The Mountain, The Hound saying "Fucking die already!"

Only bit I didn't like about Cleganebowl: That unmasked The Mountain was a dead ringer for unmasked Darth Vader. I'm like, really? You couldn't go with something more original?

[Surtt]

Danny gets it from Arya.

John goes back to reform the Nights Watch (for reasons...), officially giving up any claim to the thrown.

Gendry ends up on the thrown by being the last person with any claim to it.

[MrBug708]

Jaime/Brienne is like someone with an addiction and it was Jaime getting clean for a short while and seeing some success but in the end, old urges can't be resisted

[Vince, Pt. II]

I really like that analogy.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by bob

Stolen from elsewhere:

Over the course of one episode she went from “I’m for the people” to “fuck the people.” It’s not that most people didn’t see her turn. It’s the break-neck speed at which it happened.

I'm for the people... that I want to burn because I feel they are backing Cersei by not immediately surrending until Tyrion points out they are flocking to the Red Keep because they are scared?

This "I'm for the people" hasn't really applied to King's Landing over the last few episodes. She has had a viewpoint that they are actually collaberating and had to pushed by Varys and Tyrion to see otherwise (and right before she goes violent, she's been betrayed by Varys and feels she can't trust Tyrion at all - cause she can't).

Thinking more about this episode, this has felt like the most GRRM episode in YEARS. I can easily see GRRM telling the showrunners this is how the series is going to end and going into details - of course in the books Dany, Jon, Tyrion are all POV characters with internal decision making. I thought that when Dany was waiting on the wall of KL, hearing the bells, looking at the Red Keep is where GRRM would have her going through an inner dialogue before deciding to "Burn Them All".

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Did not enjoy Arya making a journey of incredibly epic proportions to be turned away less than 100 feet from her goal by Sandor Clegane asking her nicely.

I actually liked that a lot. Sandor made her remember her humanity again.

This story is not about down pat character arcs, and I found it refreshing and more realistic that way.

[molson]

Thinking more about this episode, this has felt like the most GRRM episode in YEARS. I can easily see GRRM telling the showrunners this is how the series is going to end and going into details - of course in the books Dany, Jon, Tyrion are all POV characters with internal decision making. I thought that when Dany was waiting on the wall of KL, hearing the bells, looking at the Red Keep is where GRRM would have her going through an inner dialogue before deciding to "Burn Them All".

I also think we just witnessed GRRM's ending. He'll (maybe) get there a different way, but I think the instructions were that the ending revolves around: the others are defeated by a coalition of humans, Jon Snow discovers his true parentage, Daenerys burns King's Landing.

And (stolen from elsewhere), there's other fingerprints like the northmen who were introduced as the "good guys" are now the rapists. The unsullied who were the liberators now kill unarmed civilians. Danerys who was going to rise above the curse of her family actually is a mad queen. There are all kinds of hints in the books and show that this was her destiny.

The show got to that ending pretty quickly, but, GRMM hasn't been able to produce any ending at all. There's too much to cover, too much detail to get everything right, I bet GRMM wrote, threw away, wrote, threw away again, all because he has the luxury of not generating a product that he doesn't think is perfect. Probably because a perfect last act of his story just isn't possible. In January 2016, GRRM reported that in May 2016, he thought he could easily finish by October 2016. Either he wasn't being truthful about that or he's ripped up a lot of his completed work along the way. The show doesn't have that luxury.

I'm loving this season. I think with exception of some of the stuff on Essos in the middle seasons, no show has ever flown by for me like this. I knew going in how long this episode was, but I had absolutely no clue how much time had passed until it was over.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Jaime somehow being able to make it all the way to Cersei after two knife-wounds to the guts was pretty lame, but I enjoyed the Euron/Jaime dustup far more than I would have expected, and Euron's final line was incredible.

Yeah, I think this was the biggest eyeroll scene of the show for me. Firstly, what a casual and coincidental way for them to find each other, then a pretty cliche "I stab you, you are dying, wait you stabbed me" hollywood fight scene trope, followed by a pretty good final line completely ruined by the fact that he was then proved to be 110% wrong as Jaime apparently doesn't have internal organs.

I loved everything Jaime was involved in after that, I just don't understand why they did that there. I think it would have been much more powerful and satisfying to have Euron catching up to and threatening Cersei before Jaime got there and then have an abbreviated fight scene at that point without the need for Jaime becoming Edward Ironsides. Pretty minor quibble though.

[ISiddiqui]

Also Euron just wading up as Jamie is walking to the back entrance was just ridiculous. They could have done a much better job just having Euron laying there as he's washed up on shore and Jamie comes across him. That speaks to a lot of the issues with the show lately though - a minor change (or one additional line) could make things far better.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Thinking more about this episode, this has felt like the most GRRM episode in YEARS. I can easily see GRRM telling the showrunners this is how the series is going to end and going into details - of course in the books Dany, Jon, Tyrion are all POV characters with internal decision making. I thought that when Dany was waiting on the wall of KL, hearing the bells, looking at the Red Keep is where GRRM would have her going through an inner dialogue before deciding to "Burn Them All".

It also showed that there really are no good guys, which is what Martin is about. The northerners had no problem raping and pillaging when the opportunity was there. Tyrion betrays Daenerys to try to save Cersei. The unsullied start killing people who had surrendered. Daenerys killing thousands of civilians.

There were still dumb things in this episode (why is the Golden company outside the gates and they may have been the only thing in the show more pointless than Brian's story arch), but this pulled us closer to ASOIAF than I expected.

EDIT: Molson hit on a lot of the things I mentioned. Posting from work sucks.

[JPhillips]

I didn't like the Golluming of Dany. Why was she suddenly turning physically ugly?

I would have preferred her to be less obviously evil. What if the fires from the scorpions spread to the city and started a conflagration? Then the Red Keep could have been destroyed by fire while showing the thousands being killed. That would have made Dany less obviously a villian, but still a war criminal.

Then the show could have used the fear me/love me idea, which was a good line, as justification for killing or threatening to kill people from the other kingdoms. It probably would have taken more time than they gave themselves, but it would have made Dany more believable and the decision to ill her less obvious, but ultimately still necessary.

dola: And why don't fires started with dragon fire seem to ever spread?

[AnalBumCover]

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...-rodgers-cameo

[Radii]

Originally Posted by whomario

Personally i never thought that 'tension' was the point here in a "will she die or not" sort of way, more that she served as a sort-of POV character to get a comprehensive view of the chaos/devastation on the ground.

I didn't see it this way at first but after reading some discussion this makes sense and she's the perfect character to do that with, it works for me.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I didn't like the Golluming of Dany. Why was she suddenly turning physically ugly?

I would have preferred her to be less obviously evil. What if the fires from the scorpions spread to the city and started a conflagration? Then the Red Keep could have been destroyed by fire while showing the thousands being killed. That would have made Dany less obviously a villian, but still a war criminal.

Then the show could have used the fear me/love me idea, which was a good line, as justification for killing or threatening to kill people from the other kingdoms. It probably would have taken more time than they gave themselves, but it would have made Dany more believable and the decision to ill her less obvious, but ultimately still necessary.

Yeah, or if she'd just burned the Red Keep to kill Cersei not caring about collateral damage instead of just strafing civilians while making no effort to make sure Cersei was killed or captured. I think making her ugly in the opening scene was to show she's not eating/sleeping, but again that was something just thrown out and rushed in one scene when it would've made more sense as a slower buildup.

I will concur that the one death I loved and that felt like perfect GRRM was Qyburn. Important scheming character makes the wrong calculation and just gets killed. No cutting away during what could be the end, no surviving multiple mortal wounds, just a quick death out of nowhere to an important character, by another important character, for a very plausible reason.

[JPhillips]

Yeah, Qyburn was great and it almost made up for the ridiculousness of Cersei slowly walking away unharmed.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I actually liked that a lot. Sandor made her remember her humanity again.

This story is not about down pat character arcs, and I found it refreshing and more realistic that way.

That was one of the few parts I liked too. He's kind of been a father figure to her throughout the series. His advice was great. Telling her that she didn't want to be like him who was consumed by revenge to the point it destroyed their life.

They'll ruin that all by having her try to kill Dany next episode but for a few minutes the writing was good.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I think making her ugly in the opening scene was to show she's not eating/sleeping, but again that was something just thrown out and rushed in one scene when it would've made more sense as a slower buildup.

Yes. It was also done so fast that most people didn't realize Varys was trying to poison Dany, but her not eating foiled that plan.

Why didn't those idiots take the two 10 episode final seasons that were offered?

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That was one of the few parts I liked too. He's kind of been a father figure to her throughout the series. His advice was great. Telling her that she didn't want to be like him who was consumed by revenge to the point it destroyed their life.

They'll ruin that all by having her try to kill Dany next episode but for a few minutes the writing was good.

Not necessarily. The 'problem' isn't killing in and of itself i would argue but the motivation behind it. She wouldn't attempt to kill Danerys because of a personal vendetta and her being on a list. This really wouldn't be about revenge as such.
Plus she was only told to let it be when it was pretty clear Cersei was done for regardless and it didn't matter wether Arya is the one actually killing her. That's where Sandor and her path are diverging, not before when it was still a question of if rather than who.

[MrBug708]

I used to think that the series was going to kill the need for the remaining two unreleased books. Now I think they’ll be hugely popular for people yearning for alternate endings to the TV series.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I used to think that the series was going to kill the need for the remaining two unreleased books. Now I think they’ll be hugely popular for people yearning for alternate endings to the TV series.

I guarantee the endings will be the same, but the paths to get there will be different (and will take the time to make more sense of the actions done)

[RainMaker]

- Jaime's character arc over 7 seasons was totally pointless in the end

- Bran turned out to be worthless in the show

- Golden Company was built up and wiped out in like 10 minutes

- Iron Fleet was built up over multiple seasons and wiped out in 30 seconds

- There is almost no point to Jon having learned his heritage. He's been a non-factor in the story all season.

- The brilliant Tyrion has been wrong about everything for like 2 seasons

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

- Golden Company was built up and wiped out in like 10 minutes

- Iron Fleet was built up over multiple seasons and wiped out in 30 seconds

Also disagree on Jaime, but to these two above: Very much in line with the show generally showing time and time again that military might as such is not a big factor bordering on irrelevant or at best being temporary/fleeting. Especially in the face of mythical/magical opponents but not even only then. Mereen being conquered from within, 2nd sons being largely irrelevant, Kings Landing being saved from Stannis due to a rediscovered wonder-weapon, undefeated Rob being killed by betrayal same as the Blackfish etc, etc.


This never aspired to be some sort of alternate history or ancient/medieval warfare, as much as some people seemed to want it to be just that. The battles itself never mattered other than as a visual vehicle, imo.

[Pyser]

I'm enjoying the final season, but it seems they just didn't know what to do with the Lannisters by the end.

Cersei would have had a plan in GRRM's world. She also would have had more than 5 lines of dialogue the entire last season.

Tyrion is so basic at this point - you expect everything to be a trap but nothing is. The bells could easily have been a false surrender. Releasing Jaime could have been a trap. It just doesn't ring true, what he's been doing with Dany lately.

I know Dany and Cersei aren't fighters, but to not have any moment between them this episode was weird.

Now only 1 episode left before Bran's entire storyline and Arya's face stealing become HUGE time wasters. Arya especially has had opportunities every single episode to use that skill to her advantage. Bran should've died in the NK attack.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Pyser

I'm enjoying the final season, but it seems they just didn't know what to do with the Lannisters by the end.

Cersei would have had a plan in GRRM's world. She also would have had more than 5 lines of dialogue the entire last season.

Tyrion is so basic at this point - you expect everything to be a trap but nothing is. The bells could easily have been a false surrender. Releasing Jaime could have been a trap. It just doesn't ring true, what he's been doing with Dany lately.

I know Dany and Cersei aren't fighters, but to not have any moment between them this episode was weird.

Now only 1 episode left before Bran's entire storyline and Arya's face stealing become HUGE time wasters. Arya especially has had opportunities every single episode to use that skill to her advantage. Bran should've died in the NK attack.

Now that's some pretty blatant 'pick and choose', no ? To concentrate on one aspect of that phase of her story (which also already reaped benefits) and make it sound like some sort of massive omission in the face of everything else associated with that story.
It also to me seems that the whole 'thing' of "face stealing" is requiring quite a bit of preperation and the right circumstances. It didn't even occur to me that the middle of the apocalypse after having just arrived would even have the possibility of her making use of that specific skillset/gimmick (same as with the NK).

[ISiddiqui]

She used the face stealing to kill the Freys, so I think that worked out well.

[Arles]

I blame Sam for the ending. Without the reveal, does Dany rush out of the North? does Varys betray Dany? Does Jon pull back from Dany? does Dany finally fly off the hinges? I don't think so.

And what was the point for Jon? He was never going to take the Iron Throne. Without the reveal, Dany stays happy with him, doesn't go full mad queen and we probably end up with Dany ruling in King's Landing and Jon/Sansa ruling the North.

Think of the Star Wars ejected shuttle moment where they don't shoot the pod with the droids - Sam gets killed on the road to Winterfell in season 6. Imagine what a "happier" ending we get...

[Honolulu_Blue]

I found the events that unfolded in terms of Dany's actions in last night's episode to be problematic.

Yes, there have been many scenes and incidents where Daenerys has been pretty ruthless and harsh and has said that she will turn cities and people "to ash" and take what is hers with "fire & blood", but I just felt like, even with all of that, we witnessed a huge leap from coldly watching your husband kill your pathetic, abusive dick of a brother or roasting two Tarlys who refused to bend the knee - to ruthlessly and coldly killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children.

Those actions are not consistent with the actions of the Daenerys I've followed through six books or through 69 episodes of television. We seemed to get all of 1.25 episodes worth of Dany "going mad" which led to the butchering of innocents. It felt about as right as when Anakin Skywalker turned to the Dark Side and then went off to butcher a bunch of younglings, like, 10 minutes later. Things escalated quickly for the sake of shock and horror, and not organically or consistently for the character.

If this is what George RR has planned, I hope it comes across more clearly in her POV chapters, because what I witnessed Dany do last night just did not work for me and my sense of the character.

These excerpts really sum the main issues I have with what Dany did last night very nicely (Here's the link to the article: ‘Game of Thrones’: Why Daenerys’s Mad Queen Turn Feels So Unearned - The Ringer

"What Thrones seemed to be setting up for years was a conflict between Daenerys’s compassion and her dogged pursuit of the Iron Throne. What decision would she make when winning the crown required the loss of thousands of innocent lives? Yet this episode didn’t give us that dilemma. When Daenerys chooses to burn King’s Landing, it’s after the people of the city are ringing the bells and the Lannister soldiers have thrown down their weapons. The war is won—Dany just had to wait a bit for her armies on the ground to (peacefully) mop up before she can finally take the Red Keep. Yet it’s at that moment that Dany decides to lay waste to the city, indiscriminately pointing Drogon at both the Red Keep and innocent families.

It’s one thing to be ruthless, as Daenerys has always been; it’s another to be truly cruel and evil. Daenerys’s actions in “The Bells” were the latter.

It’s one thing to be ruthless, as Daenerys has always been; it’s another to be truly cruel and evil. Daenerys’s actions in “The Bells” were the latter. She instigated a completely unnecessary mass killing, a vicious act that is entirely outside her established character. Maybe Dany, who has much of the same foreshadowing in George R.R. Martin’s books, was always destined to become the Mad Queen—it just doesn’t make sense for it to happen without the show demonstrating any internal conflict or nuance. Yes, Daenerys recently lost two of her dragons in Rhaegal and Viserion, two of her closest friends in Jorah and Missandei, and Jon’s affections. All of that adds fuel to her rage, but it’s not clear what sparks it. If Dany had caused so much collateral damage as a byproduct of her quest for the throne, her heel turn would at least have been consistent with her character. Instead, she blindly kills thousands with no clear goal in mind. Say what you will about Dany’s inherent tyrannical tendencies, but murdering innocent children and families in their homes has never been who she is. The broad strokes may have been suggested earlier, but the specifics came out of nowhere.

Given all the foreshadowing, Daenerys’s transformation into the Mad Queen was always a possibility, and there surely were ways to make the turn feel earned. But as she inexplicably laid waste to King’s Landing on Sunday, one thought kept running through my mind: Not like this."

More of my thoughts:

I loved a lot of the visuals and spectacle of it all.

I thought the scene with Jamie and Tyrion in the tent was really good.

I thought both Lena Heady and Jamie (actor's name is long and hard to spell) were great in their final moments. It was beautifully acted.

No one wanted or needed to see Euron and Jamie fight.

The Cleganebowl felt like a bit of fan service. I feel like the Hound’s story had evolved past that, but I suppose not. The battle looked very cool, as did much of the episode, but it lacked something. I think the fact that Gregor was an undead zombie thing made it less than, even if they tried to make him “still Gregor” at the end there. The Hound's acting was great in those scenes. Even if I didn't quite need Cleganebowl, he was awesome and it was beautiful, fitting way for them to close that plot point out (which I didn't feel I really needed).

All of the scenes of Arya running through the burning and crumbling city were really amazing, but, once again they went for the spectacle this time at the cost of Dany. It wasn’t shocking or cool, it was just stupid.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

- Jaime's character arc over 7 seasons was totally pointless in the end

- Bran turned out to be worthless in the show

- Golden Company was built up and wiped out in like 10 minutes

- Iron Fleet was built up over multiple seasons and wiped out in 30 seconds

- There is almost no point to Jon having learned his heritage. He's been a non-factor in the story all season.

- The brilliant Tyrion has been wrong about everything for like 2 seasons

I don't agree with a lot of this.

-Jon having learned his heritage was pretty much the reason Dany "went mad." If that had never come to light, presumably he and Dany would have stayed in love and she could have chosen "love" over "fear" and never killed all of those people. Jon was in love with Dany right up until he found out she was his aunt and then he couldn't go there anymore. It was, also, the reason Varys betrayed Dany and another reason she felt so alone and threatened, because Jon had the stronger claim and everyone liked him and everyone who liked her was pretty much dead or a foreigner.

-Bran was the reason Jon learned of his heritage, so, he, too served a purpose.

-As for Jamie's arc. First, the journey was well worth it. They were amazing scenes. Also, I think his 180 degree turn at the end there seemed really weird due to the show rushing things way too quickly. I totally understand a situation where Jamie tries to live the happy life with Brienne in Winterfell. He's trying to stay on the good path, be the man who Brienne thinks he is and all of that. But, he soon has doubts about that. He's a pretty damaged dude, did a lot of bad things, and doesn't think he's worthy of deserves this "good life." Also, he's at Winterfell, surrounded almost entirely by people who don't like him and see him only as the Kingslayer. So, that eats at him and finally he, unfortunately, decides he is not worth of or deserves this life, and runs back off to King's Landing to the one person with whom he ever felt right. That's a tragic, but sensible arc for the character. We never saw that. Brienne and Jamie were together for all of 20 minutes and a few scenes. He got the news about Cersei. He sat brooding. Decided to leave. Said a bunch of hateful stuff and left. With more time and more scenes we could have reached the same point in the relationship without it feeling a bit off.

-The Iron Fleet did plenty. It captured Yara. It killed one-third of all dragons in the world. It did a bunch of other things. That said, Euron in the show was terrible. He was the worst. Whenever he was doing something or involved, it was likely stupid and/or annoying.

-The brilliant Tyrion has not been very brilliant of late. This is true.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

That's a tragic, but sensible arc for the character.

Yes. This is a tragedy, not a heroic epic (though even in those, the heros suffer tragedy). This is more Illiad than Lord of the Rings.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes. This is a tragedy, not a heroic epic (though even in those, the heros suffer tragedy). This is more Illiad than Lord of the Rings.

I'd say it's more Beowulf than either of those.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I don't agree with a lot of this.

-Jon having learned his heritage was pretty much the reason Dany "went mad." If that had never come to light, presumably he and Dany would have stayed in love and she could have chosen "love" over "fear" and never killed all of those people. Jon was in love with Dany right up until he found out she was his aunt and then he couldn't go there anymore. It was, also, the reason Varys betrayed Dany and another reason she felt so alone and threatened, because Jon had the stronger claim and everyone liked him and everyone who liked her was pretty much dead or a foreigner.

-Bran was the reason Jon learned of his heritage, so, he, too served a purpose.

-As for Jamie's arc. First, the journey was well worth it. They were amazing scenes. Also, I think his 180 degree turn at the end there seemed really weird due to the show rushing things way too quickly. I totally understand a situation where Jamie tries to live the happy life with Brienne in Winterfell. He's trying to stay on the good path, be the man who Brienne thinks he is and all of that. But, he soon has doubts about that. He's a pretty damaged dude, did a lot of bad things, and doesn't think he's worthy of deserves this "good life." Also, he's at Winterfell, surrounded almost entirely by people who don't like him and see him only as the Kingslayer. So, that eats at him and finally he, unfortunately, decides he is not worth of or deserves this life, and runs back off to King's Landing to the one person with whom he ever felt right. That's a tragic, but sensible arc for the character. We never saw that. Brienne and Jamie were together for all of 20 minutes and a few scenes. He got the news about Cersei. He sat brooding. Decided to leave. Said a bunch of hateful stuff and left. With more time and more scenes we could have reached the same point in the relationship without it feeling a bit off.

-The Iron Fleet did plenty. It captured Yara. It killed one-third of all dragons in the world. It did a bunch of other things. That said, Euron in the show was terrible. He was the worst. Whenever he was doing something or involved, it was likely stupid and/or annoying.

-The brilliant Tyrion has not been very brilliant of late. This is true.

All the stuff that happened in the last 2 episodes would have been better if they happened over the course of a season. You have a 7 and a half season story arc of Jaime seeking redemption and then just do a complete 180 over the course of 20 minutes. It's just dumb.

[Coffee Warlord]

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

All the stuff that happened in the last 2 episodes would have been better if they happened over the course of a season. You have a 7 and a half season story arc of Jaime seeking redemption and then just do a complete 180 over the course of 20 minutes. It's just dumb.

How exactly are those things even connected ? How exactly would "staying the hell in bed and wait things out" have been redemption ? Maybe i missed sth (only watch once so far), but he didn't go back to help Cersei win the war or anything. I really don't see how him doing what he did at the end cheapens anything that he did before. I really think that has more to do with preconception and/or having a fixed idea of what redemption would have to look like.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

-Bran was the reason Jon learned of his heritage, so, he, too served a purpose.

Bran was completely useless. He served no point in furthering the plot, which wouldn't have been so bad if we hadn't spent so much time following him around North of the wall being led to believe what he's doing along with the deaths of Hodor, Jojen, and Summer actually meant something.

Jon learned of his heritage from Sam, who got it from the Citadel's books. Bran was used for confirmation. That's it. So Jojen, Hodor, Summer, and how many others died just so Bran could confirm the citadel books were correct?

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

-The Iron Fleet did plenty. It captured Yara. It killed one-third of all dragons in the world. It did a bunch of other things. That said, Euron in the show was terrible. He was the worst. Whenever he was doing something or involved, it was likely stupid and/or annoying.

The Iron Fleet made zero sense because it wasn't consistent from episode to episode and although the actor that played Euron did a solid job, his character was the worst written major character in the show. "Horny Jack Sparrow" as he's been referred to on Reddit is incredibly accurate. Zero depth and terrible dialogue for most of the show. But sex with the queen.

In one episode the Iron Fleet can wipe out an entire navy and capture Yara. In another episode it takes 5 people to rescue Yara from Euron's flagship. In one episode it takes out a dragon and forces a 2nd to retreat. In the very next episode the entire fleet is wiped out in seconds without landing a shot because the dragon flew higher.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by whomario

How exactly are those things even connected ? How exactly would "staying the hell in bed and wait things out" have been redemption ? Maybe i missed sth (only watch once so far), but he didn't go back to help Cersei win the war or anything. I really don't see how him doing what he did at the end cheapens anything that he did before. I really think that has more to do with preconception and/or having a fixed idea of what redemption would have to look like.

He walked away from her and her child to fight for the living. He made the decision that he had to leave her finally and move on.

Proceeds to put his life on the line defending Winterfell. Knighs Brienne. Sleeps with Brienne. Then just decides he's bad and hops on his horse to go back to Cersei.

Like what was the point of the last 7 years for him? Wouldn't it have made more sense if he had killed Cersei to save the thousands of people in Kings Landing? Or died valiantly protecting Brienne? Just seems like a better ending to his character than deciding between episodes he's a bad guy again and dying with her in his embrace.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Pyser

I'm enjoying the final season, but it seems they just didn't know what to do with the Lannisters by the end.

Cersei would have had a plan in GRRM's world. She also would have had more than 5 lines of dialogue the entire last season.

Tyrion is so basic at this point - you expect everything to be a trap but nothing is. The bells could easily have been a false surrender. Releasing Jaime could have been a trap. It just doesn't ring true, what he's been doing with Dany lately.

I know Dany and Cersei aren't fighters, but to not have any moment between them this episode was weird.

Now only 1 episode left before Bran's entire storyline and Arya's face stealing become HUGE time wasters. Arya especially has had opportunities every single episode to use that skill to her advantage. Bran should've died in the NK attack.

Show Cersei is a lot more important than book Cersei from what I remember.

[RainMaker]

Does anyone remember the bathtub scene where he explains why he killed the King? To save the innocent lives in the city. How he went to Winterfell to fight for the innocent lives that would be lost? Now he's in a tent telling Tyrion he doesn't care much for innocents.

I get that he's a complex character. Just seems odd to do such a 180 over the course of half an episode.

[RainMaker]

What was his arc? Selfish asshole who only cared about Cersei in Season 1 to selfish asshole who only cared about Cersei at the end.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What was his arc? Selfish asshole who only cared about Cersei in Season 1 to selfish asshole who only cared about Cersei at the end.

Why does he need a down-pat character 'arc'? He was a guy who even though he tried to do good and make up for his wrongs, could not leave a toxic relationship. He was always enslaved to it. Far better, IMO, than villain heroically atones for his sins by killing the evil woman he once loved.

Why does anyone think a (positive) transformative character arc is even going to happen considering GRRM is not a fan of them?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Why does he need a down-pat character 'arc'? He was a guy who even though he tried to do good and make up for his wrongs, could not leave a toxic relationship. He was always enslaved to it. Far better, IMO, than villain heroically atones for his sins by killing the evil woman he once loved.

Why does anyone think a (positive) transformative character arc is even going to happen considering GRRM is not a fan of them?

They spent 7 seasons building up that transformative character arc and abandoned it in 20 minutes. If you don't want a character to have an arc, why not just let him be the selfish asshole he was throughout all 8 seasons?

[ISiddiqui]

If you didn't notice that he kept going back to Cersei and then seemingly turning away and then coming back, then I don't know what to say.

It's kind of like all the hints of the mad Queen. They were always there.

People don't always keep advancing. They backslide quite often.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Vince, Pt. II]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: there is NO WAY IN FUCKING HELL Daenerys would ever let Tyrion anywhere near Jaime. That almost completely ruined the Jaime/Tyrion scene for me. Almost.

[bronconick]

Re: Jaime's "arc"

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Pyser

Tyrion is so basic at this point - you expect everything to be a trap but nothing is. The bells could easily have been a false surrender. Releasing Jaime could have been a trap. It just doesn't ring true, what he's been doing with Dany lately.

I was definitely expecting the bells to be a false surrender play.

I do agree that Jaime's arc makes a lot of sense, even if I think the Brienne scenes were unnecessary and a bit gratuitous. It's also worth noting that he did go for the bells first rather than choosing to head directly to Cersei via the backdoor that Tyrion told him about. I think it's perfectly logical to think he was conflicted until the very end and at least made an effort to avoid the massacre - even if most of the motivation was selfish.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: there is NO WAY IN FUCKING HELL Daenerys would ever let Tyrion anywhere near Jaime. That almost completely ruined the Jaime/Tyrion scene for me. Almost.

Yeah, that was a bit forced. Hey character who I've just made completely clear I do not trust in the slightest and will execute the next time you fail me, we have your brother, he's over there. We've just left him with a couple low level guards who will just get the hell out of the way when they realize who you are.

Anyway, just though I'd mention that before turning in for the night. See you in the morning.

[Izulde]

Video: Rockets Mascot Bends Knee to Game of Thrones Star Emilia Clarke at Game 6 | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights

I love everything about this.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes. It was also done so fast that most people didn't realize Varys was trying to poison Dany, but her not eating foiled that plan.

Why didn't those idiots take the two 10 episode final seasons that were offered?

Wait, was the point of that Varys scene with the little girl that he was trying to poison Daenerys? I thought he was just getting updates about how she was emotionally unstable and acting irrationally, and deciding he had to approach Jon Snow when he arrived on Dragonstone.