FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

It appears that the New York City police department is being proactive in the defund movement. Retirements are up 49% from last year, and they plan on striking on July 4th. This should be entertaining.

272 NYPD Cops File for Retirement and Others Play Sick in Response to Anti-Police Brutality Protests

People are attributing this to the protests but it's not a defiant resignation. They just got a ton of overtime and if they retire now, their pension is based on recent pay. It's beneficial to them to retire now financially. It's why a ton of cops retired after 9/11.

[RainMaker]

As #Aurora municipal security forces lost patience with how long it was taking to illegally evict us from the #ElijahMcClain violin vigil, they began deploying chemical agents directly into protesters faces and at protesters that were fleeing while attempting to make arrests pic.twitter.com/ElDeu8Q4LD

— dula lipa (@dulapalooza) June 28, 2020

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

People are attributing this to the protests but it's not a defiant resignation.

That's not what I got from reading the article.

“People have had enough and no longer feel it’s worth risking their personal well-being for a thankless position."

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

That's not what I got from reading the article.

“People have had enough and no longer feel it’s worth risking their personal well-being for a thankless position."

I know what the article says, just telling you that police retire after long periods of overtime all the time because it is beneficial for their pensions. The author likely doesn't know this or is being pushed a BS narrative.

[Vegas Vic]

I suppose time will tell.

If this does become a national trend, law abiding citizens will be required to take a more active role in protecting their homes and businesses.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I suppose time will tell.

If this does become a national trend, law abiding citizens will be required to take a more active role in protecting their homes and businesses.

Semi non sequitur, but this just reminded me that the one house that was broken into on my street growing up was the one where the future police chief lived. Might have even gotten it twice.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I suppose time will tell.

If this does become a national trend, law abiding citizens will be required to take a more active role in protecting their homes and businesses.

Well gun sales are said to be spiking recently. So I guess people are preparing.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I suppose time will tell.

If this does become a national trend, law abiding citizens will be required to take a more active role in protecting their homes and businesses.

Or you have an opportunity to fill good paying jobs with new bodies that you can educate and train in the manner that you expect everyone to maintain, addressing the overall culture of the profession, and making improvements where desired. Evolve or die as a profession.

[illinifan999]

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Or you have an opportunity to fill good paying jobs with new bodies that you can educate and train in the manner that you expect everyone to maintain, addressing the overall culture of the profession, and making improvements where desired. Evolve or die as a profession.

I think the goal in many municipalities is to eliminate many of these positions, not to refill them. There is no question that this will help reduce police brutality and discrimination against minorities.

With that being said, we can only hope that the drug dealers, organized crime members, white supremacists, gangbangers, anarchists, militias, carjackers, home invaders, arsonists, serial rapists and murderers will also have an epiphany and voluntarily discontinue their evil ways. Who knows, they might even start attending church regularly.

[RainMaker]

When NYPD had their little strike in 2014, crime actually went down.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Reading the twitter comments it is readily apparent how wide this rift is that has to be closed and how social media can quickly propel an incident to places that have no connection to the actual facts.

I saw people saying it was an unarmed man with his pregnant girlfriend, which I don't see in any of the videos and you can clearly see a gun when the officers get to him, wrapped in a bandanna. Every shooting should obviously be scrutinized and judged on evidence and outcome.

It is apparent from the beginning of the video that George Floyd was murdered, nobody can dispute that. This video to me shows a justified shooting, that people are still refuting, or asking questions like "why couldn't they use a taser?"

Being woke, requires being educated too and we will continued to see a divide on this issue until the "I support blue no matter what" people start to really dig into systemic racism, look at other perspectives and learn that many people of color still have far more barriers than most of us, as well as inherent bigotry to overcome because people fear them, which leads to anger, which leads to hate, which results in innocent black men dying.

conversely, the "Cops are all corrupt liars" people need to understand the demands of the job, that are not even close to being offset by comparable training. Stripping departments of money won't help, putting money into INTENSIVE training, even if that means adding fund is the solution. I am like a broken record, but it is not going to work any other way. Otherwise you will be left with understaffed depts that only have a pool of people to choose from that SHOULD NEVER be given a badge.

And for that mind blowing "why not use a taser?" remark I saw on twitter. The time from officers exiting their car to shots fired is 11 seconds and they were not even in dependable taser range when the gun came out, SMH.

If we are going to get real accountability and change, knowledge and trust is a two way street that both departments and civilians could stand to explore a lot deeper.

[RainMaker]

If this is about investing more money in policing, why do countries that spend far less than us also have far less crime?

[Butter]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

If we are going to get real accountability and change, knowledge and trust is a two way street that both departments and civilians could stand to explore a lot deeper.

I agree that there is a lot of room for nuance, and social media takes away the nuance in situations like this.

HOWEVER, I also feel that the burden of change falls largely (not solely) on the police. Especially in communities that feel they have been terrorized up until now.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Butter

HOWEVER, I also feel that the burden of change falls largely (not solely) on the police. Especially in communities that feel they have been terrorized up until now.

100% agree with this, there is a reason the trust is not there with the public and communities need to see tangible change. My only point was the needle has strayed so far now, that it seems to be an automatic assumption the Police are in the wrong, which again you can understand, but there needs to be perspective.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If this is about investing more money in policing, why do countries that spend far less than us also have far less crime?

I think we both know that is due to culture, socioeconomic oppression and the massive amount of guns that flood our streets.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I think we both know that is due to culture, socioeconomic oppression and the massive amount of guns that flood our streets.

I was told more guns make us safer.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I was told more guns make us safer.

Safer from ourselves I guess counts, until it doesn't, shrug.

[Vegas Vic]

The LA City Council voted 11-3 today to move forward with a study to cut approximately $150M out of the law enforcement budget.

LA County CEO Sachi Hamai's proposed budget recommends the following LASD units be eliminated: Safe Streets Bureau (Gang Enforcement), Parks Bureau, Special Victims Bureau (Sexual/Physical Abuse of Children, Rape, Human Trafficking), Community Partnership Bureau (COPS Team), Fraud & Cybercrimes Bureau, and the Major Crimes Bureau.

There has been no official comment yet from the Crips and Bloods, but reliable sources say they are expected to strongly support these measures.

DEFUNDING THE LASD BUDGET 145.4M Dollars

[tarcone]

My thoughts on police forces in the USA.

Pay them more but get rid of unions. Have a board that oversees their actions but does not protect them.

[JPhillips]

It's a study that would cut less than 10% of their budget. Given the budget crisis almost every state and local government is going to have to deal with, it doesn't amount to much, IMO.

One area I agree with police is that they are expected to be all things for all people. That should change and limit what is actually the job of the police, but doing that will have to mean cutting funding, especially over the next few years of lower tax revenue.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Pay them more but get rid of unions. Have a board that oversees their actions but does not protect them.

100%

More training, better pay, no unions

[Brian Swartz]

Wait, so we're ok with the average citizen having a union but not police officers? How does that make sense?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Wait, so we're ok with the average citizen having a union but not police officers? How does that make sense?

Because Police unions have allowed a toxic culture to prosper in many departments. How is that okay? Do you really think Bob Kroll is someone who is fit to be a leader of any Police union?

Replace the unions with oversight committees and arbitration if there is discipline, but make the process completely neutral. It is far from that now with unions involved. And with law enforcement the stakes are a little higher than with pipe fitters local 107

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Wait, so we're ok with the average citizen having a union but not police officers? How does that make sense?

I mean, if the average citizen were able to commit acts of brutality and hide behind their union to escape the consequences, we might be having a different conversation about civilian unions, also.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Because Police unions have allowed a toxic culture to prosper in many departments. How is that okay? Do you really think Bob Kroll is someone who is fit to be a leader of any Police union?

Replace the unions with oversight committees and arbitration if there is discipline, but make the process completely neutral. It is far from that now with unions involved. And with law enforcement the stakes are a little higher than with pipe fitters local 107

What I was trying to say but better.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by BYU14

And with law enforcement the stakes are a little higher than with pipe fitters local 107

I don't see how that's relevant. I'm just against double standards in general. Lots of other unions have negative aspects as well. If we're going to impose a non-union approach to the police, we need to impose it on everybody. Somebody shouldn't have fewer rights (collective bargaining or whatever) just because they are a police officer.

Originally Posted by Sack Attack

if the average citizen were able to commit acts of brutality and hide behind their union to escape the consequences, we might be having a different conversation about civilian unions, also.

The way to respond to police getting away with brutality is to convict more of them. Removing unions is treating them as second-class citizens; both those who are guilty, and those who aren't. I won't acquiesce to throwing a profession under the bus in total just because of the way the political winds are blowing.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I don't see how that's relevant. I'm just against double standards in general. Lots of other unions have negative aspects as well. If we're going to impose a non-union approach to the police, we need to impose it on everybody. Somebody shouldn't have fewer rights (collective bargaining or whatever) just because they are a police officer.



The way to respond to police getting away with brutality is to convict more of them. Removing unions is treating them as second-class citizens; both those who are guilty, and those who aren't. I won't acquiesce to throwing a profession under the bus in total just because of the way the political winds are blowing.

Other professions have unions AND exceptional federal oversight and extremely high professional standards that are policed from within the group and outside the group. It's not apples to apples at all. If the Union, vis a vis, allowing a culture that is literally dangerous to certain groups, is part of the problem, then the Union must be stripped down, and rebuilt. In this case, the government goes to the Union and says you're a part of the solution or your not. You choose.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Other professions have unions AND exceptional federal oversight and extremely high professional standards that are policed from within the group and outside the group.

I'm far from a union expert, but even I know this just plain isn't true at all of a lot of professions. I'm sure it is of some, but often it isn't. There's a big difference between saying a particular union is doing something illegal (in which case let's absolutely start there and prosecute those who are in need of it) and saying what is being advocated here, which is get rid of the union and no, they don't get another one.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's a study that would cut less than 10% of their budget. Given the budget crisis almost every state and local government is going to have to deal with, it doesn't amount to much, IMO.

Exactly. If you really want to see government agencies getting shafted for funds, just look at school budgets next year.

And allow me to roll my eyes at the LASD. Blaming the LA City Council for buying into “defund the police” by ONLY leaving with a $3.5 BILLION budget. The the most adequate response I can think of to respond to that is: Fuck off.

[thesloppy]

I think a job like police officer could probably use the ostensible benefits of a worker's union more than anybody else, the problem is the underlying thin-blue-line culture, the redundant/conflicting leadership structure and acting as a willful buffer/impediment to any & all discipline. If it's possible to fix/remove all of those things while leaving police with all the other trappings of a union then I think practically everybody would be fine with that.

[RainMaker]

Unions are also representative of the people in them. They vote to put these people in charge. So if Philly or Chicago continuously votes to out a white supremacist in charge of their union, maybe you aren't hiring the right people.

[thesloppy]

Yeah, it probably distracts from the point, but for what little my third-hand experience with a handful of unions is worth, every one that I'm familiar with are shitty and corrupt organizations that actively work against the quality & quantity of whatever product or service their members are producing....but as far as the workers in those industries are concerned it's still certainly preferable to getting boned by their employers.

...and again, I dunno where that really fits into the point, other than to say even as a relatively far-left progressive I personally look at the modern American unions as more of a necessary evil than any kind of sacred cow & I wouldn't be against the slippery prospect of reassessing unions entirely.

[Edward64]

Don't have the full story yet (at least I don't think so) about the MO couple brandishing AR and pistol against protesters that allegedly broke through the gates.

I'm all for protecting your property/life (e.g. guy with AR) but there was a picture of wife pointing pistol with figure on trigger. That's bad trigger finger discipline and made me wince.

[RainMaker]

Photos Taken By Aurora Police At Elijah McClain Memorial Under Investigation – CBS Denver

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Photos Taken By Aurora Police At Elijah McClain Memorial Under Investigation – CBS Denver

Yes, because the photos of a couple of cops re-enacting are the real problem! Not that they ran out dozens of riot cops armed with batons and pepper spray to break up a peaceful protest. A few bad apples, indeed.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I don't see how that's relevant. I'm just against double standards in general. Lots of other unions have negative aspects as well. If we're going to impose a non-union approach to the police, we need to impose it on everybody. Somebody shouldn't have fewer rights (collective bargaining or whatever) just because they are a police officer.



The way to respond to police getting away with brutality is to convict more of them. Removing unions is treating them as second-class citizens; both those who are guilty, and those who aren't. I won't acquiesce to throwing a profession under the bus in total just because of the way the political winds are blowing.

I think I'm with Brian here. Yes, the police unions are a problem. But you can't just deny them unions. I think PilotMan has it right - looks, you can have a union but you're still going to be strongly regulated and go from there.

SI

[bob]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

LA County CEO Sachi Hamai's proposed budget recommends the following LASD units be eliminated: Safe Streets Bureau (Gang Enforcement), Parks Bureau, Special Victims Bureau (Sexual/Physical Abuse of Children, Rape, Human Trafficking), Community Partnership Bureau (COPS Team), Fraud & Cybercrimes Bureau, and the Major Crimes Bureau.

I admittedly don't have any experience in running a police force, but the majority of these groups aren't the ones I would have started with first in terms of cuts.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Don't have the full story yet (at least I don't think so) about the MO couple brandishing AR and pistol against protesters that allegedly broke through the gates.

I'm all for protecting your property/life (e.g. guy with AR) but there was a picture of wife pointing pistol with figure on trigger. That's bad trigger finger discipline and made me wince.

Not to mention the wife looks like she has never held a gun in her life

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Not to mention the wife looks like she has never held a gun in her life

She does look like she's seen a lot of bad 80s action movies, though

SI

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Don't have the full story yet (at least I don't think so) about the MO couple brandishing AR and pistol against protesters that allegedly broke through the gates.

I'm all for protecting your property/life (e.g. guy with AR) but there was a picture of wife pointing pistol with figure on trigger. That's bad trigger finger discipline and made me wince.

There are some other facts that are conveniently left out of many of the news accounts, most of which have headlines like "St. Louis Couple Point Guns at Peaceful Protesters" or "White Couple Point Guns at Protestors Marching for Police Reform in Missouri."

The "peaceful" protestors in question destroyed the entry gate to their home, and were trespassing on private property.

Central West End couple explains why they pointed guns at protesters who demanded Krewson's resignation | News Headlines | kmov.com

[cartman]

Still doesn't absolve extremely poor trigger discipline. Only time your finger is on the trigger is when you are firing, not just thinking about firing.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

There are some other facts that are conveniently left out of many of the news accounts, most of which have headlines like "St. Louis Couple Point Guns at Peaceful Protesters" or "White Couple Point Guns at Protestors Marching for Police Reform in Missouri."

The "peaceful" protestors in question destroyed the entry gate to their home, and were trespassing on private property.

Central West End couple explains why they pointed guns at protesters who demanded Krewson's resignation | News Headlines | kmov.com

LOL, sure, from the article:

Despite his claims, video circulating on social media shows protesters opening and walking through the unbroken gate. It is unclear when it was actually damaged or who destroyed it.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

The "peaceful" protestors in question destroyed the entry gate to their home, and were trespassing on private property.

Central West End couple explains why they pointed guns at protesters who demanded Krewson's resignation | News Headlines | kmov.com

"Despite his claims, video circulating on social media shows protesters opening and walking through the unbroken gate. It is unclear when it was actually damaged or who destroyed it."

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

There are some other facts that are conveniently left out of many of the news accounts, most of which have headlines like "St. Louis Couple Point Guns at Peaceful Protesters" or "White Couple Point Guns at Protestors Marching for Police Reform in Missouri."

The "peaceful" protestors in question destroyed the entry gate to their home, and were trespassing on private property.

Central West End couple explains why they pointed guns at protesters who demanded Krewson's resignation | News Headlines | kmov.com

No, those are all details that have been in every single news account I have read. It's a pretty fascinating story, particularly in the follow-up interviews with the couple.

What's not clear to me is whether that was a gate to a private neighborhood, or they used that property as a cut-through to get to another property. Also was the gate unlocked or was it damaged before, during, or (conspiracy time!) after the fact.

Look, they overreacted. Just shows how the whole "trespassing" and stand your ground bs combine to completely exacerbate a lot of situations.

[Vegas Vic]

You folks do realize that this is a private, gated community, right? The streets and sidewalks are not public, and the "peaceful" demonstrators had no right to be there in the first place.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

You folks do realize that this is a private, gated community, right? The streets and sidewalks are not public, and the "peaceful" demonstrators had no right to be there in the first place.

You do know that Rosa Parks, a "peaceful" demonstrator refused to give up her seat to a white man, in violation of existing racial segregation law. She broke the law! She had no right to be there in the first place!

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Subby

You do know that Rosa Parks, a "peaceful" demonstrator refused to give up her seat to a white man, in violation of existing racial segregation law. She broke the law! She had no right to be there in the first place!

You're comparing trespassing on private property to the wrongful discrimination against Rosa Parks on public property? That's a line that I don't think we want to cross.

[ISiddiqui]

I know that when people walk through the door behind someone in my private gated apartment complex, I bring my gun out and point it at them (also known as assault, btw) as they walk through.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I know that when people walk through the door behind someone in my private gated apartment complex, I bring my gun out and point it at them (also known as assault, btw) as they walk through.

To be clear, you're equating "tailgating" by a person in a gated apartment complex to a mass demonstration with hundreds of people storming a private community without the consent of the property owners?