FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

To be clear, you're equating "tailgating" by a person in a gated apartment complex to a mass demonstration with hundreds of people storming a private community without the consent of the property owners?

Yes.

I'm not inclined to assault people in either way.

I have a sneaking suspicion these folks realized how bad it looked for them and decided to break the gate to give them a boo-hoo story.

[thesloppy]

It seems worth mentioning that while the protestors were on private property they were not on those people's property & they were loudly advertising exactly what house they were going to. These folks might have the legal right to point guns at folks that dared walked past their house, but I don't know why anyone would want or try to defend them anymore than that.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It seems worth mentioning that while the protestors were on private property they were not on those people's property & they were loudly advertising exactly what house they were going to. These folks might have the legal right to point guns at folks that dared walked past their house, but I don't know why anyone would want or try to defend them anymore than that.

I agree that they overreacted, and pointing guns at the protestors was ill advised. What is being overlooked is that the protestors had no right to be there in the first place. If a private property owner wants to lead a demonstration on his/her property or gives explicit consent for the demonstrators to occupy their property, that's fine. Allowing this to take place without consent is a slippery slope that if allowed to continue unabated is going to end up with tragic outcomes.

Similarly, there should be no objection to protests on public streets or sidewalks. There should be no objection to removing racially insensitive statues or monuments on government property. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for people to grasp.

[Edward64]

Yup, the guy looks as if he's taken some training. The woman not so much.

From what I've read, they technically are probably in the right with the castle doctrine with a bunch of "undesirables" invading the subdivision and I assume their front yard. But I would just have stayed in the house with my AR, taken the pistol away from the wife, called 911 (unless I was in a CHOP zone) and let insurance pay for damages.

[whomario]

This seems borne out of the same sentiment that makes gated communities a thing in the US in the first place: The desire not to have any of that real world shit infiltrate their little slice of artificial paradise and/or be afraid as hell of that. You move there to be isolated, so of course you freak when you are not suddenly. I would freak if 'they' entered my buildings hallway banging on doors (walking past my building, not so much), they freak if they enter their neighbourhood. (Heck, others freak if 'they' enter the city or even country. See the great Antifa-in-busses panic of 2020 or the ongoing murderous-foreigners panic).
Everybody has that sort of 'bubble' , except here it gets pushed out and/or duplicated and formalised by a sort of border/physical barrier.

As an aside: people always talk about "the community" and how it is important to be a part of it or how glad they are of being so and then you have a decent number of folks, including in this case apparently the Mayor of all people, literally chosing not to be, given that option. When people get that 'Out', it seems foolish to expect them to have any desire to actually improve things, by and large. This is human nature. The more insulated you are, the more issues become other peoples problems.

This whole de-facto segregation/separation (be it by race or by class/income) at both ends of the 'spectrum' is a problem, not just in the US of course but i would say it is more distinct a problem than elsewhere.

[Drake]

If you just booby trap your property in advance, you can't be accused of overreacting.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It seems worth mentioning that while the protestors were on private property they were not on those people's property & they were loudly advertising exactly what house they were going to. These folks might have the legal right to point guns at folks that dared walked past their house, but I don't know why anyone would want or try to defend them anymore than that.

Theoretically, didn't the protestors have a right to feel that their lives were threatened and use lethal force? I mean, haven't we argued about less before?

it's one thing to brandish a weapon, but to actively point it at people who are not ON your property is another. Isn't it?

[RainMaker]

It's a crime from what I've seen most lawyers say. The street wasn't their private property. I lived in a private condo complex many years ago that had a pool. I couldn't take my gun down and wave it at people I thought weren't residents. And the way they acted did not seem at all like they were afraid for their lives.

She has never held a gun in her life I'm guessing. And he doesn't seem to have taken a class either since in one of the photos he is clearly aiming the rifle at his wife.

Now maybe the classes I took were wrong, but we were taught to keep the muzzle in a safe direction. Usually means at the ground where there is no chance of ricochet.

The whole thing does show the disparity because a black couple coming out with guns aimed at people would have been shot immediately by police.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by whomario

This seems borne out of the same sentiment that makes gated communities a thing in the US in the first place: The desire not to have any of that real world shit infiltrate their little slice of artificial paradise and/or be afraid as hell of that.

I don't think the "fear" factor is the predominant issue, at least not for me. I've lived in gated/private communities and non-private communities.

In a gated community you're much less likely to encounter inconsiderate neighbors and door to door solicitors/salespersons. People are willing to pay higher HOA fees if they know that other residents will maintain their property appropriately. Being in a gated/private community also mitigates the risk of losing property value during market fluctuations. A gated community adds value and is simply a good investment.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The street wasn't their private property.

Technically, it is their property. The streets and sidewalks are private, owned by the HOA. Every owner has an undivided interest in common.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's a crime from what I've seen most lawyers say. The street wasn't their private property. I lived in a private condo complex many years ago that had a pool. I couldn't take my gun down and wave it at people I thought weren't residents. And the way they acted did not seem at all like they were afraid for their lives.

Likely not a crime so much as a misdemeanor. It's the textbook definition of assault. And no they didn't seem like they were afraid (why would they be the protesters were walking on the street obviously going to the Mayor's house), but rather wanted to intimidate.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Technically, it is their property. The streets and sidewalks are private, owned by the HOA. Every owner has an undivided interest in common.

They have an interest in the HOA, not the property. The property is still owned by the HOA, that doesn't entitle the owners within the HOA as owners of the property. The property still belongs to the HOA.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

They have an interest in the HOA, not the property. The property is still owned by the HOA, that doesn't entitle the owners within the HOA as owners of the property. The property still belongs to the HOA.

They don't own the streets and sidewalks. They have an undivided interest in common (e.g. HOA). The city does not maintain or repair the streets or sidewalks, the homeowners do as part of their HOA assessment. Hence they are not public streets or sidewalks.

If they wanted to protest against the mayor and call for her ouster, they should have lawfully demonstrated in front of her office building instead of trespassing in a private community and forcing the other homeowners to be subjected to this.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Technically, it is their property. The streets and sidewalks are private, owned by the HOA. Every owner has an undivided interest in common.

I have an interest in Apple in my stock portfolio but can't hold people at gunpoint on their property.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by whomario

This seems borne out of the same sentiment that makes gated communities a thing in the US in the first place: The desire not to have any of that real world shit infiltrate their little slice of artificial paradise and/or be afraid as hell of that. You move there to be isolated, so of course you freak when you are not suddenly. I would freak if 'they' entered my buildings hallway banging on doors (walking past my building, not so much), they freak if they enter their neighbourhood. (Heck, others freak if 'they' enter the city or even country. See the great Antifa-in-busses panic of 2020 or the ongoing murderous-foreigners panic).
Everybody has that sort of 'bubble' , except here it gets pushed out and/or duplicated and formalised by a sort of border/physical barrier.

As an aside: people always talk about "the community" and how it is important to be a part of it or how glad they are of being so and then you have a decent number of folks, including in this case apparently the Mayor of all people, literally chosing not to be, given that option. When people get that 'Out', it seems foolish to expect them to have any desire to actually improve things, by and large. This is human nature. The more insulated you are, the more issues become other peoples problems.

This whole de-facto segregation/separation (be it by race or by class/income) at both ends of the 'spectrum' is a problem, not just in the US of course but i would say it is more distinct a problem than elsewhere.

1) The mayor doesn't live in the gated community. Yet another thing surprisingly not really making the national stories. The protesters knew very well they were cutting through the gated part of town to get to her house and could have gone all sorts of other ways. (Which by the way they could have gone to city hall the next day but you know why do that when they can go shoot fireworks at her private residence and bring guns to intimidate)



5 On Your Side reporter says rioters pulled gun during protests | ksdk.com

2) Come on out to St. Louis and live among the people! Here is a great deal! Only $4000 (not monthly, not yearly, $4000 cash!) for a 2000 sq ft house! Of course you do have one of the highest murder rates in the country and something the police chief referred to as "Hayden's Rectangle" where 67% of the city's crime occurs. But why would anyone want to live in a safe community right?

Pardon Our Interruption

Fourth victim dies after shooting in "Hayden's Rectangle" | KMOX-AM

Or was it just faux outrage by you since you likely don't live in "the community" where you live either?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have an interest in Apple in my stock portfolio but can't hold people at gunpoint on their property.

What part of Chicago's hood do you live in again?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

If they wanted to protest against the mayor and call for her ouster, they should have lawfully demonstrated in front of her office building instead of trespassing in a private community and forcing the other homeowners to be subjected to this.

Nah it was Sunday night why wait until morning and go protest at city hall when you can do it much more peacefully shooting fireworks at her private residence? At least they aren't breaking her windows and throwing peaceful paint like after the last set of riots. Peaceful paint,peaceful protests of course! Why would the two be scared though? The members of FOFC who more than likely live in nice neighborhoods themselves know so much more about St. Louis than the people who actually live there right?

‘Agitators’ break windows and smear red paint on Mayor Krewson’s home | FOX 2

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I don't think the "fear" factor is the predominant issue, at least not for me. I've lived in gated/private communities and non-private communities.

In a gated community you're much less likely to encounter inconsiderate neighbors and door to door solicitors/salespersons. People are willing to pay higher HOA fees if they know that other residents will maintain their property appropriately. Being in a gated/private community also mitigates the risk of losing property value during market fluctuations. A gated community adds value and is simply a good investment.

Desire/need/preference then. The financial aspect walks that line as well though, doesn't it ?

I am not saying it isn't the smart play or it is bad to do it, just saying it is driven by that 'need' to not be subject to 'normal' reality, over which you have much less controll. And in terms of society it is much easier to ignore deterioration when it does not affect you. By and large money creates power, so if well-off people are more and more removed from those that are not and thus do not share a reality, that isn't a good thing. That is why urban planning and housing is important.
If you let everything just "adjust itself" and let everything be determined entirely by desire and opportunity, things will only get more extreme.

I mean, while this is obviously a segway: that is also part of the problem regarding police, no ? People and groups of people have vastly different overlap with the police, even within the same city, at least in significant parts predetermined by the different realities of living (and working, too) and perception of that reality. And by and large some parts of society have more choice here than others.

Or take public transit in most areas. Certain problems can't be solved without targeted Interventions. That's sth other countries have figured out by and large, whereas 'the US' still kinda hopes that things will work itself out as need be.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

What part of Chicago's hood do you live in again?

Lincoln Park/Lakeview

Nothing in the legal code that says you're allowed to break the law if you're in certain neighborhoods.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Nah it was Sunday night why wait until morning and go protest at city hall when you can do it much more peacefully shooting fireworks at her private residence? At least they aren't breaking her windows and throwing peaceful paint like after the last set of riots. Peaceful paint,peaceful protests of course! Why would the two be scared though? The members of FOFC who more than likely live in nice neighborhoods themselves know so much more about St. Louis than the people who actually live there right?

‘Agitators’ break windows and smear red paint on Mayor Krewson’s home | FOX 2

They weren't scared. If you're scared you find a defensive position and call for help.

[panerd]

Wasn't shocked this news story made the national news and this one didn't? A few weeks ago the whole country was flabbergasted at the old guy in Buffalo. Not a peep about this though from the same day as the pink polo gun guy...






Can't imagine why?

[Vegas Vic]

Once again, I'm not defending the actions of the homeowners who pointed guns at the protestors.

The point that is apparently being missed is that if the protestors had legally marched on public property (e.g. the Mayor's office) instead of trespassing in a private residential neighborhood, this never would have happened.

We had a similar situation in early June in Las Vegas, albeit on commercial property instead of residential. BLM decided to hold a protest in Downtown Summerlin, which is a large outdoor mall with shops and restaurants. However, the property is owned by the Howard Hughes Corporation, including the interior drive isles and sidewalks. The protestors were prohibited from trespassing on the commercial property, and instead they assembled on Pavilion Center Drive (a public street on the perimeter of Downtown Summerlin) where they exercised their constitutional right to peacefully protest.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lincoln Park/Lakeview

Nothing in the legal code that says you're allowed to break the law if you're in certain neighborhoods.

I applaud your supposed 180 on this topic but you are the one for the first 50 pages of this thread talking about crime in Chicago. Apparently it's no longer an issue in Chicago or even St. Louis now! Great news!

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They weren't scared. If you're scared you find a defensive position and call for help.

Well they are Democrats and she is the Democratic Mayor from the same party the city of St. Louis has elected for the past 70 years. Only real choice in November is to stuff those ballot boxes and vote Democrat again!

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by panerd

Can't imagine why?

You can't imagine why more attention was given to the violent actions of someone collecting a government paycheck in riot gear that had taken an oath to protect and serve vs that of a random civilian?

[cuervo72]

More on this story.

Catholics and protesters clash over Louis IX statue in Forest Park | News Headlines | kmov.com

Guy has been fired from his job.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Wasn't shocked this news story made the national news and this one didn't? A few weeks ago the whole country was flabbergasted at the old guy in Buffalo. Not a peep about this though from the same day as the pink polo gun guy...

Because the police found no one was seriously hurt and took a report for assault in the 4th degree against the man who slapped the old guy (the old guy reported he was slapped in the head).

Circuit Attorney's Office says blows thrown at protest of St. Louis statue are under investigation | Law and order | stltoday.com

[cuervo72]

Dola - but yeah, there is a difference between a crackpot and someone delegated a position of authority.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

You can't imagine why more attention was given to the violent actions of someone collecting a government paycheck in riot gear that had taken an oath to protect and serve vs that of a random civilian?

Complete lawlessness in downtown St. Louis. Wasn't only one random civilian just a good picture of the old man being beaten with brass knuckles. Nothing to see here!

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because the police found no one was seriously hurt and took a report for assault in the 4th degree against the man who slapped the old guy (the old guy reported he was slapped in the head).

Circuit Attorney's Office says blows thrown at protest of St. Louis statue are under investigation | Law and order | stltoday.com

There's video at this link. I saw it on twitter. Don't know the type website this is from (newsbreak?) but can't find it on any of the major news networks in St. Louis for some reason. Complete lawlessness.

Catholics Attacked By BLM At Prayer Event at Statue of St. Louis [VIDEO] | News Break

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by panerd

Complete lawlessness in downtown St. Louis. Wasn't only one random civilian just a good picture of the old man being beaten with brass knuckles. Nothing to see here!

I honestly don't even know what point you're trying to make now, but I can assure you it's definitely not what I am hearing.

[tarcone]

In Missouri you can openly carry a weapon. That law has changed. Do not need a permit. So what this guy is doing is not illegal.

Do not know about pointing it at people, but Im sure that was not illegal, also.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

There's video at this link. I saw it on twitter. Don't know the type website this is from (newsbreak?) but can't find it on any of the major news networks in St. Louis for some reason.

Catholics Attacked By BLM At Prayer Event at Statue of St. Louis [VIDEO] | News Break

People have literally linked to KMOV (CBS station), and St Louis Post Dispatch reporting on it but there is still this strange victimization of the major news networks aren't reporting it.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I honestly don't even know what point you're trying to make now, but I can assure you it's definitely not what I am hearing.

The story of two idiots holding guns on their porch with no violence whatsoever makes national news everywhere. The story of an old mean being beaten because he was part of a group praying at the St. Louis statue hardly a peep from local media and crickets nationally.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Wasn't shocked this news story made the national news and this one didn't? A few weeks ago the whole country was flabbergasted at the old guy in Buffalo. Not a peep about this though from the same day as the pink polo gun guy...






Can't imagine why?

Random civilian? lol



https://www.facebook.com/PaulMetzgerIII

Few nuggets from this poor guy:

I’ld like to see them try, I have a sharp knife and a loaded shot-gun, and a big ass mouth

Here is the truth about the knife, yes I had a knife in my pocket at the rally, I did not brandish it until I was leaving after I was hit and flex my biceps as a show of strength and resolve against the Radical Muslim Group that organized the counter protest against the catholic prayerful. It has nothing to do with black people, I love black people. I applaud the guy for hitting me; because he was told that I was a KKK member by Regional Muslim Action Network and Tishaura Jones (our treasurer for St Louis).

Again: Umar Lee, I challenge you to a dual of swords, where you or I can be a martyr to the glory of Almighty God.

This story was covered a lot in St. Louis where it happened. Not defending violence at all, but this wasn't some random guy walking around who was assaulted. His mouth likely wrote a check his ass couldn't cash.

Might not have seen it on Ron Paul's white power newsletter or wherever you saw it.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

People have literally linked to KMOV (CBS station), and St Louis Post Dispatch reporting on it but there is still this strange victimization of the major news networks aren't reporting it.

Same exact day as the vigilante lawyer incident. Just shows what the national media chooses as it's narrative. Nothing happening vs senseless violence and anarchy in downtown St. Louis. Also would explain why one might want to defend their home since this is occurring several blocks the street.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by panerd

The story of two idiots holding guns on their porch with no violence whatsoever makes national news everywhere. The story of an old mean being beaten because he was part of a group praying at the St. Louis statue hardly a peep from local media and crickets nationally.

Fair enough. Let me add that to the very bottom of my list of legitimate concerns.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not defending violence at all.

lol. Talk more about the lawyers who did nothing.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Random civilian? lol



https://www.facebook.com/PaulMetzgerIII

Few nuggets from this poor guy:




This story was covered a lot in St. Louis where it happened. Not defending violence at all, but this wasn't some random guy walking around who was assaulted. His mouth likely wrote a check his ass couldn't cash.

Might not have seen it on Ron Paul's white power newsletter or wherever you saw it.

This the same Rainmaker who posted about blacks for the first 50 pages of this thread? Wasn't sure because you sure are sanctimonious now.

[RainMaker]

Also one incident involved an innocent man being seriously harmed by the state. The other is two protesters scuffling.

Can't figure out why this would be different?

[PilotMan]

I don't know, a tattoo of a cross on his arm? Looks more like a religious battle than anything else. Perhaps the fist of god working through him? I got nothing.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Same exact day as the vigilante lawyer incident. Just shows what the national media chooses as it's narrative. Nothing happening vs senseless violence and anarchy in downtown St. Louis. Also would explain why one might want to defend their home since this is occurring several blocks the street.

A few fistfights at a protest where no one got seriously hurt is barely a news item - heck the guy who got smacked a few times seemed almost energized by it. Random people even brandishing guns gets a lot more play - during the Atlanta protests local reporting focused on like 4-5 Black Panther people packing as they were marching (they never pointed their guns at anyone or even shot anyone).

[panerd]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I don't know, a tattoo of a cross on his arm? Looks more like a religious battle than anything else. Perhaps the fist of god working through him? I got nothing.

I mean I don't know why I bother.. but I will try again... actual senseless violence (there is a riot in the video I linked, the picture was just an old guy getting beat up which was the end of the world a few weeks ago) draws laughs and jokes here. The actual non-story of two idiots with guns is of major interest and concern.

[RainMaker]

More from this poor man who I'm sure was just an innocent bystander.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A few fistfights at a protest where no one got seriously hurt is barely a news item - heck the guy who got smacked a few times seemed almost energized by it. Random people even brandishing guns gets a lot more play - during the Atlanta protests local reporting focused on like 4-5 Black Panther people packing as they were marching (they never pointed their guns at anyone or even shot anyone).

Few fistfights? You have to click sensitive option to see the video and people being chased, kicked, and beaten with baseball bats.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1277299862938288129

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I agree with everything here. I'd add that the people who are stopping traffic don't care about this issue. It's attention seeking behavior from people who don't have the ability to garner attention for real accomplishments. Like a child throwing a tantrum till their parents will look their way.

Rainmaker circa 2015.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A few fistfights at a protest where no one got seriously hurt is barely a news item - heck the guy who got smacked a few times seemed almost energized by it. Random people even brandishing guns gets a lot more play - during the Atlanta protests local reporting focused on like 4-5 Black Panther people packing as they were marching (they never pointed their guns at anyone or even shot anyone).

And I get it. I mean I really am aware of why one makes the news and one doesn't. It's also why the country is so divided. Not the reason, not the cause, but just more fuel on the fire about a nothing news story. Same as the Black Panther thing you are talking about, its disgusting and we buy right into it.

[Vegas Vic]

At the 1:30 point in this video, Anders Walker, a Constitutional and Criminal Law Professor at St. Louis University articulates the point that I was trying to make.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Rainmaker circa 2015.

My views on protests have changed significantly over the years. Having seen voting rights gutted and other peaceful means fail to create change. As seen from public polls, a lot of people have had their views changed as more evidence has come to light about police brutality (including my own city covering up a murder).

You're still just regurgitating talking points from whatever white supremacist outlet is on your reading list for the day.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by panerd

I mean I don't know why I bother.. but I will try again... actual senseless violence (there is a riot in the video I linked, the picture was just an old guy getting beat up which was the end of the world a few weeks ago) draws laughs and jokes here. The actual non-story of two idiots with guns is of major interest and concern.

Listen, I really hate senseless violence. I was really only trying to add levity and the irony of a man with a cross tattoo on his arm hitting another person who is also supposedly 'religious'. I hate all of it. It's total bullshit. I despise street fight videos, I hate random acts of violence, I hate people who do those things, and I fear those things done to me, or to anyone I love. I think there's more underlying support for you than you're getting. I stopped hitting people when I was in grade school. It's disheartening to me on a human level.