FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

My views on protests have changed significantly over the years. Having seen voting rights gutted and other peaceful means fail to create change. As seen from public polls, a lot of people have had their views changed as more evidence has come to light about police brutality (including my own city covering up a murder).

You're still just regurgitating talking points from whatever white supremacist outlet is on your reading list for the day.

Nope don't read any white supremacist stuff (not even any of your old stuff ). Just follow local news and watch it go national with huge pieces missing.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Nope don't read any white supremacist stuff (not even any of your old stuff ). Just follow local news and watch it go national with huge pieces missing.

Aren't you a big Ron Paul guy? Pretty sure you know about those newsletters.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Aren't you a big Ron Paul guy? Pretty sure you know about those newsletters.

Oh for Christ sakes the 1970's newsletters of a guy who has been retired from public office for what 10 years? Got me!

[panerd]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Listen, I really hate senseless violence. I was really only trying to add levity and the irony of a man with a cross tattoo on his arm hitting another person who is also supposedly 'religious'. I hate all of it. It's total bullshit. I despise street fight videos, I hate random acts of violence, I hate people who do those things, and I fear those things done to me, or to anyone I love. I think there's more underlying support for you than you're getting. I stopped hitting people when I was in grade school. It's disheartening to me on a human level.

Yeah I probably need to back down a little to. But I really am scared too. I mean I (used to) take my family to the places where this unrest is happening. All it would have taken is one protester to throw something at those people or one of those lawyer's finger to slip and who knows it there is coming back. I mean it wouldn't be the civil war but I bet St. Louis and it's surrounding areas would go up in smoke. It's just disgusting that the responses I get to a full out brawl in what was one of the safest areas of downtown St. Louis is "So what? 4th degree assault. Big deal." It's my city turning into a war zone.

[RainMaker]

That couple was not scared. That is not the reaction of scared people. It's two people who wanted to act like tough guys because they didn't like a march happening near their home.

If you consider that fight a "war zone", I don't know what to tell you. I've seen countless bar fights worse than that.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That couple was not scared. That is not the reaction of scared people. It's two people who wanted to act like tough guys because they didn't like a march happening near their home.

If you consider that fight a "war zone", I don't know what to tell you. I've seen countless bar fights worse than that.

Sorry man I have a family and we go to Forest Park and the St. Louis Zoo and don't expect "countless bar fights" in the middle of the day. But again I know you don't excuse violence but no big deal for that sort of shit to happen in a public park right because you have seen countless bar fights in mid day Chicago? Hell I remember a full out brawl at Cloud Gate last time I was in your town! Just countless bar fights everywhere!

Here is what used to be a 7-11 until a few weeks ago. Wonder what 2015 Rainmaker would have thought about this. Of course not a war zone right?

[RainMaker]

Comparing an actual war zone where bullets and bombs are blowing people up to a burned out 7-11.

[RainMaker]

The burned out Wendys in Atlanta was just like Waterloo.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by panerd

1) The mayor doesn't live in the gated community. Yet another thing surprisingly not really making the national stories. The protesters knew very well they were cutting through the gated part of town to get to her house and could have gone all sorts of other ways. (Which by the way they could have gone to city hall the next day but you know why do that when they can go shoot fireworks at her private residence and bring guns to intimidate)



5 On Your Side reporter says rioters pulled gun during protests | ksdk.com

2) Come on out to St. Louis and live among the people! Here is a great deal! Only $4000 (not monthly, not yearly, $4000 cash!) for a 2000 sq ft house! Of course you do have one of the highest murder rates in the country and something the police chief referred to as "Hayden's Rectangle" where 67% of the city's crime occurs. But why would anyone want to live in a safe community right?

Pardon Our Interruption

Fourth victim dies after shooting in "Hayden's Rectangle" | KMOX-AM

Or was it just faux outrage by you since you likely don't live in "the community" where you live either?

Again, i am not saying (at least did not mean to) it isn't the smart decision or that you shouldn't. I am saying it shouldn't be. I am saying it is fucked up that those are the options and that this becomes a development that is less and less likely to change the more it becomes divided up into seperate worlds.

And where do you see "outrage" in my post ? Incredulity, maybe. But then again, i am used to that.

And for what it's worth, your last sentence/accusation perfectly illustrates the point i was trying to make. The problem is the fact that it has become commonplace to have an inside and an outside of several seperate communities existing essentially without overlap. And obviously this didn't happen overnight or could be changed overnight. Nor am i going to claim i would know how.

I simply come back to the main point i am making over and over that the USs problems seem to have more to do with the underlying/overarching system (s) and cultural norms (and of course, history) than somehow the people being uniquely terrible* and things doomed to stay a certain way. But imo the view of this being "normal" or "natural" needs to be challenged. And i am not saying you do or don't.

All of which i am not bringing up all the time to judge or look down or whatever, but because i feel like it offers a different perspective.

* Which is brought forward from both sides of every argument, btw. Do i think those 2 acted terribly ? Yes. Do i think they specifically are the problem rather than a manifestation of multiple systemic problems ? No.
The same can be said for any number of others. The US has a tendency to put all Problems down to people just choosing wrong or not working hard enough. When to me (and many much smarter people) the more relevant factor might be the circumstances enabling/forcing/influencing/prompting those actions.

And one example among others is indeed how crime has been fought for decades now in the US.

And my neighbourhood is not upscale in the slightest fwiw, but pretty much among the cheapest in town (which in itself is not fancy, Bochum had it's major industries go bust in the 90s and has decently high unemployment and large influx of refugees a few years back). Where i stay by choice, not because i couldn't afford 'prettier'. Because even this sort of neighbourhood has easy access to everything you'd ever need including terrific public transport and inhabitants that run the gammet of professions/wealth (jobless or student to big bucks), single to family or german to syrian.

Again, i have no idea how the US situation (s) feel from inside (though i spend a solid year in Cleveland if that counts ), i can only offer a take from far off and having some idea of a few different models in different countries
That may or may not be useful but also likely isn't as influenced by me being in the problem, so to speak. It is of course influenced by my experiences with 'my' systems.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Comparing an actual war zone where bullets and bombs are blowing people up to a burned out 7-11.

Yeah that does not look like the work of a civilized society.

[thesloppy]

I think that it's fairly easy to argue that the St. Louis couple got an undue amount of media attention simply because of the absurdity and sensational nature of those photos/video, more than any other kind of race based media bias/conspiracy. I imagine the exact same scenario, set in front of a $40,000 house, wouldn't have made national news.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by whomario

Again, i am not saying (at least did not mean to) it isn't the smart decision or that you shouldn't. I am saying it shouldn't be. I am saying it is fucked up that those are the options and that this becomes a development that is less and less likely to change the more it becomes divided up into seperate worlds.

And where do you see "outrage" in my post ? Incredulity, maybe. But then again, i am used to that.

And for what it's worth, your last sentence/accusation perfectly illustrates the point i was trying to make. The problem is the fact that it has become commonplace to have an inside and an outside of several seperate communities existing essentially without overlap. And obviously this didn't happen overnight or could be changed overnight. Nor am i going to claim i would know how.

I simply come back to the main point i am making over and over that the USs problems seem to have more to do with the underlying/overarching system (s) and cultural norms (and of course, history) than somehow the people being uniquely terrible* and things doomed to stay a certain way. But imo the view of this being "normal" or "natural" needs to be challenged.

All of which i am not bringing up all the time to judge or look down or whatever, but because i feel like it offers a different perspective.

* Which is brought forward from both sides of every argument, btw. Do i think those 2 acted terribly ? Yes. Do i think they specifically are the problem rather than a manifestation of multiple systemic problems ? No.
The same can be said for any number of others. The US has a tendency to put all Problems down to people just choosing wrong or not working hard enough. When to me (and many much smarter people) the more relevant factor might be the circumstances enabling/forcing/influencing/prompting those actions.

And one example among others is indeed how crime has been fought for decades now in the US.

And my neighbourhood is not upscale in the slightest fwiw, but pretty much among the cheapest in town (which in itself is not fancy, Bochum f.e. had it's major industries go bust in the 90s and has decently high unemployment and large influx of refugees a few years back). Where i stay by choice, not because i couldn't afford 'prettier'. Because even this sort of neighbourhood has easy access to everything you'd ever need including terrific public transport and inhabitants that run the gammet of professions/wealth (jobless or student to big bucks), single to family or german to syrian.

Again, i have no idea how the US situation (s) feel from inside (though i spend a couple years in Cleveland if that counts ), i can only offer a take from far off that may or may not be useful but also isn't as influenced by me being in the problem, so to speak. It is of course influenced by my experiences with our system.

I am from the outside on Europe but from what I have read and seen the minorities (especially the Muslims) are not treated that great nor live in that great of conditions over there either. Maybe the shows I watch are over dramatized but I seriously have no doubt there are European ghettos that are just as bad or worse as the United States. Especially the UK but maybe you consider them their own little problem.

And I do think it is important where somebody lives. Sorry about calling you out directly and I love your stuff in the COVID thread so I hope it isn't taken personal but some of the biggest liberals on this board I guarantee live in the nicest communities. It's liberal racism, I know better than poorer black people on what they want as I type from my keyboard of my million dollar home nowhere near any of them.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I think that it's fairly easy to argue that the St. Louis couple got an undue amount of media attention simply because of the absurdity and sensational nature of those photos/video, more than any other kind of race based media bias/conspiracy. I imagine the exact same scenario, set in front of a $40,000 house, wouldn't have made national news.

Yeah probably just the tucked in pink shirt vs if he was wearing a cardinals t-shirt or camo.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I think that it's fairly easy to argue that the St. Louis couple got an undue amount of media attention simply because of the absurdity and sensational nature of those photos/video, more than any other kind of race based media bias/conspiracy. I imagine the exact same scenario, set in front of a $40,000 house, wouldn't have made national news.

They would probably have been shot by police if it was in front of a $40k home.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They would probably have been shot by police if it was in front of a $40k home.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Get out and vote. Get other people out to vote. Convince people to vote for the people you want in power. That's how you get leadership in your town that you want and that represent the things you want.

As for what can be done, I'd start with addressing some of the problems in the community. The high crime levels, lack of Fathers involvement, lack of education, and so on. And when someone does bring that up not calling them an Uncle Tom if they're black or racist if they're white. That would go a lot farther in improving the situation over waiting for white people to wave a magic wand and do whatever it is you think they have the mystical power to do.

I see a lot of complaining and excuses out there. I see almost no solutions. I think sitting around and waiting gets people nowhere. But that's sort of been the approach for awhile now.

The Rainmaker newsletters.

[ISiddiqui]

It's almost as if people can evolve and change in 6 years!!

[RainMaker]

Like I said, my views have changed a lot over the past few years. Seeing the levels of brutality on video and the amounts of voter suppression has changed my view. Consistent with a lot of people in this country.

You're still doing your white supremacist wrapped in a libertarian bit.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

In a gated community you're much less likely to encounter inconsiderate neighbors and door to door solicitors/salespersons. People are willing to pay higher HOA fees if they know that other residents will maintain their property appropriately. Being in a gated/private community also mitigates the risk of losing property value during market fluctuations. A gated community adds value and is simply a good investment.

I agree with this especially maintaining property value. Assuming you can afford to live in a gated community.

Our subdivision is not gated but we talked about having one. We ultimately decided against it.

[RainMaker]

Off topic but how can anyone stand having an HOA? There seems to always be one person in it that makes everyone's life a living hell.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's almost as if people can evolve and change in 6 years!!

Yep....

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Aren't you a big Ron Paul guy? Pretty sure you know about those newsletters.

Yeah just a half hour ago he is referencing a newsletters from 1992 that supposedly fuel my world outlook. What is that 28 years ago?

[RainMaker]

So you don't support Ron Paul? You're not a libertarian?

It's good if you came around on that bigot.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like I said, my views have changed a lot over the past few years. Seeing the levels of brutality on video and the amounts of voter suppression has changed my view. Consistent with a lot of people in this country.

You're still doing your white supremacist wrapped in a libertarian bit.

How exactly? By digging up your white supremacist views? Mine was about violence that is hardly more than a bad bar fight according to you.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So you don't support Ron Paul? You're not a libertarian?

It's good if you came around on that bigot.

LOL. The newsletter has come up and been discussed in about 3-4 threads here. Do a search as I'm sure you and Daddytorgo and I were the main ones involved. However the 1994 crime bill from Joe Biden actually had an effect on people's lives.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Few fistfights? You have to click sensitive option to see the video and people being chased, kicked, and beaten with baseball bats.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1277299862938288129

I clicked on the tweet... yeah, a few fistfights. That's, what, two separate fist fights? Exactly as reported by the police according to the St Louis Post-Dispatch.

Like if you don't think that is a fistfight, what exactly do you think fistfights are? I mean it looked like a bar fight. Not saying bar fights are great either, but do you really think that's something that should be national news?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yep....


Yeah just a half hour ago he is referencing a newsletters from 1992 that supposedly fuel my world outlook. What is that 28 years ago?

I mean are you still a Ron Paul guy? Because as far as I know, he never disavowed them.

If you've sworn off Paul for that, then cool. Going after that is not appropriate, but if you are still a Paul guy...

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by panerd

The Rainmaker newsletters.

Good read. I agree with the paragraph.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I clicked on the tweet... yeah, a few fistfights. That's, what, two separate fist fights? Exactly as reported by the police according to the St Louis Post-Dispatch.

Like if you don't think that is a fistfight, what exactly do you think fistfights are? I mean it looked like a bar fight. Not saying bar fights are great either, but do you really think that's something that should be national news?

I think it's a bigger story than the two lawyers. For sure locally. And yet the lawyers go national.

I think you are from Atlanta right? So it would be like a giant fistfight in Ansley Park in the middle of the day. I take it that happens all the time right?

[whomario]

Originally Posted by panerd

I am from the outside on Europe but from what I have read and seen the minorities (especially the Muslims) are not treated that great nor live in that great of conditions over there either. Maybe the shows I watch are over dramatized but I seriously have no doubt there are European ghettos that are just as bad or worse as the United States. Especially the UK but maybe you consider them their own little problem.

And I do think it is important where somebody lives. Sorry about calling you out directly and I love your stuff in the COVID thread so I hope it isn't taken personal but some of the biggest liberals on this board I guarantee live in the nicest communities. It's liberal racism, I know better than poorer black people on what they want as I type from my keyboard of my million dollar home nowhere near any of them.

Fair.

And yes, of course every country has issues.
The mainly irritating thing about the US is the seeming standstill on issues that have been there for a looooong time. We tend to switch issues every few decades, at least and it just seems so universal and widespread in the US and of course the violence and number of deaths sticks out.
And as big as problems are, there is a bigger recognition of how it is a societal/systematic problem and not a people problem. Is that universal ? Of course not. Do we have racists and biggots ? Latent racism in the population ? Absolutely and way too many and with a bad trend in that direction until recently.* But i would say there are also better safeguards against that being 'expressed' by both private citizens and institutions and thus have less crass consequences.
If nothing else we are alao helped by differences on stuff like guns. Which is why the UK has a knive violence problem, but of course you have much less violent deaths with knives than you'd have with guns (Germans love guns too btw. But they love then in private, they are not part of public life. Most germans that don't personally know someone that has one or own one will never see a gun wielded by a private citizen. Or even more than a handgun in the holster on a police officer)

I wouldn't presume to know better what people want i know little about. (Which does not preclude me trying to understand what motivates them). That's precicely why i tend to not really go that route, aside from thinking that in the grand scheme of things people as such really have limited options to change things themselves (for them or any one community). At some point change has to be on an institutional level.

France might actually be the closest analogue to the US in Europe btw.

* But due to the more robust systems it had less of an effect (seriously, some stuff in the US just screams to be exploited) and i was pretty positively surprised about the massive pushback from all parties and parts of society after the right wing AFD got record numbers during the refugee crisis, near 20% in elections and polls, and now they are back to 8.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I mean are you still a Ron Paul guy? Because as far as I know, he never disavowed them.

If you've sworn off Paul for that, then cool. Going after that is not appropriate, but if you are still a Paul guy...

He goes after it every time like a broken record. Here's a link to the most detailed discussion (from 2013, I guess his darker years) if you want...

400 Bad Request

Post 21034 if you really want to read a recap.

Like if I said Joe Biden's 1994 crime bill any time a liberal board member posted anything. At first it would be discussed and then it would likely get old and eventually just be blown off.

[RainMaker]

Joe Biden sucks. I'd vote for him over Trump but he's been wrong about just about every single major decision in our nation over the past few decades. So if you think I'm going to rush to defend him, check the Democrat Primary thread.

Why does it matter where the fight takes place? I am lucky enough to live in a nice neighborhood these days but if I saw a fight like that, I wouldn't be setting up an armory in my home. It looks like two sets of protestors getting into a fight which happens all the time at protests.

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, for Rainmaker you'd have to point out Bernie voted for the 1994 Crime Bill .

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think you are from Atlanta right? So it would be like a giant fistfight in Ansley Park in the middle of the day. I take it that happens all the time right?

Not all the time, but probably not unheard of either (there are plenty of bars around the area). And if it did happen, it'd probably be on the AJC for a day and not front page news either - well unless it was college football related (which is possible since Smith's Olde Bar is an Alabama bar...).

Originally Posted by panerd

He goes after it every time like a broken record. Here's a link to the most detailed discussion (from 2013, I guess his darker years) if you want...

Ah, I didn't realize this had history.

[Brian Swartz]

Personally I give RainMaker credit for a personal evolution in his views. Whether it's an evolution in a direction I agree with is beside the point; the willingness to change is worth saluting.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's almost as if people can evolve and change in 6 years!!

Since there are apparently people on this board keeping track, I'll just say that anything I posted here prior to, say, 2012 doesn't apply anymore. I might still believe what I said in some random post, but just as likely I don't.

Just throwing that out there in case any one's been waiting years to play a game of "got'cha" with some stupid shit I said way back when I was a young and stupid.

[sterlingice]

Crap - I mean, I've been on here since 2001. I can only imagine some of the stuff I said back then. And if I'm still here in 20 years, I'm going to shake my head at all of it even more.

SI

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Crap - I mean, I've been on here since 2001. I can only imagine some of the stuff I said back then. And if I'm still here in 20 years, I'm going to shake my head at all of it even more.

SI

Every time I see a really old thread bumped, the first thing I do is skim through to see if I posted anything stupid in it.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Every time I see a really old thread bumped, the first thing I do is skim through to see if I posted anything stupid in it.

Nah, I just assume the worst and move on.

[ISiddiqui]

Dude, when I started posting here I was a Republican. My positions have moved quite a bit.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

Me, too.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[cuervo72]

Same.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Dude, when I started posting here I was a Republican. My positions have moved quite a bit.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Out of curiosity, why?

[GrantDawg]

I don't know about him, but for me it was the Iraq war. That was a final straw after many other issues that had me moving that way.

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[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Out of curiosity, why?

Short answer: I became a Christian.

Though I was starting to get pretty damn frustrated with the Republican Party after Iraq Wat II. Was a moderate Republican and some of the turns were a bit much - esp growing up Muslim and seeing the Islamophobia. My parents were moderate Republicans too and I think the last Republicans for above local office they voted for was W. (Though my last Republican was McCain)

[sterlingice]

One could also make an argument that the GOP has moved significantly further to the right in the last couple of decades.

SI

[RainMaker]

Cops shoot rubber bullets at marchers and laugh, body cam shows | Miami Herald

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Cops shoot rubber bullets at marchers and laugh, body cam shows | Miami Herald

After publication online, Fort Lauderdale Police Chief Rick Maglione said in a statement to the Herald: “Your story shows less than 3 minutes of an 8 minute and 43 second long video. The entire video clearly demonstrates our officers were under attack by a group of people who chose to use violence instead of peace to antagonize the situation. Although the language is extreme, and offensive to some, our officers were dealing with the chaos of a developing situation.“

Translation: "Even though there's video of it, we still don't care"

SI

[illinifan999]

Homicides up in Chicago by 83% as of June 28 compared to 2019. Overall arrests down 55%, street stops down 74%, traffic stops down 86% for same period.

[RainMaker]

Aurora police chief fires 3 officers as part of Elijah McClain photo investigation

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Homicides up in Chicago by 83% as of June 28 compared to 2019. Overall arrests down 55%, street stops down 74%, traffic stops down 86% for same period.

It appears there has been a significant upspike in NYC shootings recently.

Shootings surge in NYC amid disbanding of NYPD’s plainclothes anti-crime unit

[cuervo72]

Naturally the NYP is going to look for that causation (being a Murdoch property).

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/n...ngs-surge.html

Numbers are up, but reasons are going to be (including below) conjecture.

Mr. Hermann said the spike in shootings likely stemmed from a “combination of warmer weather, Covid cabin fever and the traditional gun violence that we see in June, July and August.”

There are a lot of possible reasons for an uptick mentioned in the article.