Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Toddzilla]

They should sell the company to Jeff Katz. It would be, if nothing more, interesting to watch.

[SirFozzie]

Just rewatched the Mexican Hardcore Falls Count Anywhere Match (Ciclope/Damien versus Silver King/La Parka) from 6/1999 WCW.

WCW Mexican Hardcore match - �يديو Dailymotion

It's just a mind trip for so many reasons.

First off, there's the sheer spotfest insanity of the match. It starts with La Parka hitting Ciclope (who's just hanging out on the apron like this is a normal tag match) with a chair and devolves from there, including La Parka hitting a Hank Aaron sized chairshot on Ciclope's suicide dive outside the ring. Then not 30 seconds later, Damian breaks up a Silver King dive to the outside by throwing the chair into his face. THere's a spot where Silver King throws a trash can over the head over Ciclope's head (great toss too, it just went right over his head perfectly), and then did the Ultimo Dragon flip to the outside, landing on top of the trashcan and probably making Ciclope two inches shorter.. Poor Ciclope then takes a tornado DDT from the apron to the table on the floor. (Seriously, Ciclope took about 1 stupid/dangerous spot per 90 seconds here)

Then you take it to the next level with Schiavone and Heenan just giggling over the whole match (including Schiavone caling Ciclope the Great Pumpkin) and just openly wondering why people keep getting up to take more abuse. Normally I'd be mad for them shitting over the whole thing, but the more that I think about it, this is the kind of match that deserves to be mocked and to have people wonder openly why anyone would keep getting up to do it. Finally Damien takes a powerbomb across two chairs that don't give AT ALL (he just really bounced off the seats of the chairs) and mercifully, it's over

It's just eight or so minutes of mind numbing spot after spot that makes you wonder if the WCW brass walked around the locker room saying "Hey guys? One of our promos got cut, does anyone want to go out there for 10 minutes or so and kill themselves for the crowd's amusement?" It's just. man.. in the days of concussions/CTE etcetera it's almost cringe inducing.

Still, if you';re into watching four people basically destroy each other and the announcers yukking it up the entire time, this match gets about 19,435 stars.

[SirFozzie]

Very quick thoughts on the wrasslin pvp, I attended in the posh corporate suites

STRONG opening match between kofi and miz...

5 on 5 match was six or seven types of awesome.

People around me groaned when we heard the diva match was elimination.

Axel and Big E was shit on and rightly so.

Crowd just was not that into the punk and bryan vs wyatt match.. other than the YES chants. Shame as it was a pretty good match.

Main event was the drizzling shits and should end the big show push.. and hopefully the reign of Orton soon

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Axel and Big E was shit on and rightly so.

Fuck you, Big E is awesome, even if WWE insists on fucking him up. Give him Five!

[RainMaker]

I'm interested to see how bad the buyrate is for this. Really bad card.

[Mota]

At least we get to see Cena back in the main event after being held down for so long.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Mota

At least we get to see Cena back in the main event after being held down for so long.

yea, its nice to see WWE take a risk and give the kid a chance

[RainMaker]

It was pretty funny to see them setup that main event as the entire crowd was chanting for Daniel Bryan.

[jbergey22]

I personally dont get the hype with Daniel Bryan I guess. CM Punk always had that star factor going for him. Maybe I am missing something but Ive never seen it in Daniel Bryan. Or maybe he is booked in a way I cant stand. Who knows.

Having a guy look so weak all of the time but keeping him looking like a legitimate threat is interesting booking.

[molson]

The Big Show's role here was to give the Authority an established guy to defeat along the way to whatever they're doing at the Rumble and Mania. That can't just be Daniel Bryan for the next 8 months. He'll be back, but he has been in the main event of 5 straight PPVs, and we really didn't need to see Orton/Bryan again.

They could have ditched the authority thing, given the belt to Bryan, and just have him as the babyface champion fending off heels for a while, ala CM Punk a year or two ago. I don't think that would have led to hugely higher buyrates or anything though, Bryan works much better as a title chaser than a champion (especially leading into Mania), and they can always do that later. Personally, I think Punk and Bryan interacting with the Wyatts is kind of fun, and makes the Wyatts seem a little more important than they did when they were fighting Brodus Clay every week. And it keeps Punk and Bryan away from the authority angle for the moment, which I like because I don't find any of that particularly compelling. People say they want storylines and angles going on outside the main event, but they really don't, fans have the same mindset - if you're not in the main event you're BURIED!!!

Edit: when I was a kid, my favorite wrestler was ricky steamboat. But it never once occurred to me that i was supossed to be angry and annoyed that the show didn't revolve around him all year. And he never got anything close to a daniel bryan kind of role. Bryan's done so much great stuff at all levels of the wwe card, but the run is still a disapointment, and people can't really appreciate him, because the show doesn't revolve around him at all times. If you're not into the main event angle, it's really not the end of the world - a lot of people preferred the midcard acts in the hogan era, or in wcw when hogan and piper were on top. (But those top guys appealed to advertisers and children with their parents' wallets, so there was a method to that too.)

[Neuqua]

I'm looking forward to Reigns' future in the WWE but before they break up the Shield I really want a Shield/Wyatts 3 on 3 match. That could probably be Wrestlemania caliber.

[RainMaker]

It's not that Punk/Bryan aren't in the main event, it's that they are in a pointless mid-card feud with an unestablished team like the Wyatts. If you're going to put them in a feud with a stable, do it with the Shield. Not only do they have credibility, they also have some talent that could put on some incredible matches with those two.

I don't know why they'd want to keep Punk away from the Authority angle. It's right up his alley. He's much better in the antihero/anti-establishment role instead of this smiling babyface role they have him in now. Not saying he should be going up against Orton, but a feud with the Shield would make much more sense for him and keep him involved in it.

Cena just makes no sense to me. He's the most corporate of all guys and he's supposed to be going against corporate suits. I don't mind the Big Show feuding up top, and I wouldn't mind if they threw another babyface Orton's way to strengthen him (Ziggler if they hadn't buried him months ago would be nice). Cena is just a terrible guy for this angle.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Cena just makes no sense to me. He's the most corporate of all guys and he's supposed to be going against corporate suits. I don't mind the Big Show feuding up top, and I wouldn't mind if they threw another babyface Orton's way to strengthen him (Ziggler if they hadn't buried him months ago would be nice). Cena is just a terrible guy for this angle.

They dont have any comic book villains for him to fight. Once they turned Cena into a comic book character they never quite understood how to book him as that gimmick was stale 25 years ago.

[RainMaker]

Cena is actually good when they drop the comic book act. His feud with the Rock I thought was great. And his battles with Punk were great too.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If you're going to put them in a feud with a stable, do it with the Shield.

Daniel Bryan v. The Shield went on a long time, involved CM Punk at times, and gave us many great matches. I wouldn't mind seeing more of that, but shouldn't they try to elevate someone else at some point too, especially one of the few unique acts they have on the roster? Isn't that a thing, we want them to elevate guys and make someone besides the main eventers seem important?

As for Punk, if he does get into the authority angle, it will probably be during Rumble/Mania season. I'd rather not see him be vanquished by the Authority right now at a B-PPV (which is what would happen, because the authority thing ain't ending until Mania at least.) He's a big enough star now that he could probably survive that fine, but Show has less of a long-term future.

They have their plan through Mania (subject to change or be derailed by injuries), so this time of year is kind of a soft period before that gets rolling. Perfect time to try to elevate someone, feed someone like the Big Show to the heel main eventers, add some star power to the midcard, and for me to ignore HHH and Stephanie.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Cena is actually good when they drop the comic book act. His feud with the Rock I thought was great. And his battles with Punk were great too.

Agree. When they dont make him be something people dont like he is a great performer. He is booked for the kids that buy his merchandise. Unless the children stop buying his stuff I doubt we will ever get that turn many of us have wanted for so long.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Daniel Bryan v. The Shield went on a long time, involved CM Punk at times, and gave us many great matches. I wouldn't mind seeing more of that, but shouldn't they try to elevate someone else at some point too, especially one of the few unique acts they have on the roster? Isn't that a thing, we want them to elevate guys and make someone besides the main eventers seem important?

As for Punk, if he does get into the authority angle, it will probably be during Rumble/Mania season. I'd rather not see him be vanquished by the Authority right now a B-PPV (which is what would happen, because the authority thing ain't ending until Mania at least.)

Wyatts lost to Punk/Bryan. Not sure that's elevating them. Only so much 3 on 1 beatdowns can help your image.

Then again while I like the gimmick, I don't think they are anything special in the ring. And I think WWE booked them incredibly weak early on as opposed to what they did with the Shield.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Wyatts lost to Punk/Bryan. Not sure that's elevating them. Only so much 3 on 1 beatdowns can help your image.

Then again while I like the gimmick, I don't think they are anything special in the ring. And I think WWE booked them incredibly weak early on as opposed to what they did with the Shield.

Can you imagine the reaction if Bryan lost in a mid-card PPV match?

I don't know how much newer midcarders benefit from unsuccessful brushes with big stars. That's debatable and maybe it's a case-by-case thing. I But I know when the midcarders don't get those brushes and are contained to their own little glass ceiling world, everybody complains about that too.

Edit: I've ranted about this many times here but I don't think it's possible for a major American wrestling company to put out a product that would be considered "good" by this portion of cynical fans who express themselves on the internet. It has not happened in 15 years or something, and different, opposite strategies of booking get criticized, whatever the company is doing is the wrong thing. I think maybe wrestling has a limited shelf life for most people, that's why it's always appealed to children, or during the attitude era, to newer young male adult fans. You don't have to watch this stuff for very long before you can see what's going to happen a mile away. But people remember how they felt when they first started watching wrestling, either as a child, or during the attitude era as a young adult, and they want that feeling again. But it's impossible to provide that, at least for extended periods of time, to a fan who has seen everything before.

Daniel Bryan is the perfect example. I believe that people won't be satisfied with his booking until they rename the company World Daniel Bryan Entertainment. Because they expectations just go up as his star rises. At first, we just wanted him in the company to have a chance. I'm sure I could find posts in this thread upset that he signed with the company that was only going to use him as a jobber. Once that didn't happen, all people wanted for him was to have to have storylines on TV. Once that happened, all people wanted was involvement in more signficant angles. Then they wanted him to have world championships. Then they wanted him to main event ppvs. Then they wanted him to pin Cena clean as a sheet on the 2nd biggest PPV of the year (that happened). Now, 5 ppv main events in a row isn't enough - damn it, it has to be 6. There's no stopping this train. Interestingly though, I do think it helps Bryan's overness with some of the fanbase, because it's fun to get behind someone that's been "wronged".

[molson]

Dola, Daniel Bryan is the perfect example. I believe that people won't be satisfied with his booking until they rename the company World Daniel Bryan Entertainment. Because the expectations and demands just go up as his star rises. At first, we just wanted him in the company to have a chance. I'm sure I could find posts in this thread upset that he signed with the company that was only going to use him as a jobber. Once that didn't happen, all people wanted for him was to have to have storylines on TV. Once that happened, all people wanted was involvement in more signficant angles. Then they wanted him to have world championships. Then they wanted him to main event ppvs. Then they wanted him to pin Cena clean as a sheet in a PPV main event (which actually happened). Now, 5 ppv main events in a row isn't enough - damn it, it has to be 6. There's no stopping this train. Interestingly though, I do think it helps Bryan's overness with some of the fanbase, because it's fun to get behind someone that's been so horribly "wronged" at every turn. I think the authority is a too-cute attempt to bring that whole real life scenario to life - HHH is trying to be a heel that mirrors his real-life perceived heeldom, but it just doesn't quite work the same in a fictional universe.

[RainMaker]

They built him up great and then gave him a 1 month title reign and sent him down to the mid-card so HHH could get over while fans in every arena chant his name.

[molson]

I love that the thing that got Bryan more over than anything else was having him lose to Sheamus in 10 seconds at Wrestlemania. That's when fans started chanting for him in random segments. I think they tried to use that same dynamic and draw it out v. the Authority, and it certainly helped KEEP Bryan over, but, I'm not a fan of intentional real life/fiction blending of stuff in angles (though that's from somebody who lived through many years of Vince Russo, so I'm kind of over it.) And it risks bringing that anti-corporation cynicism to the portion of the fanbase who haven't acquired it naturally yet.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

They should sell the company to Jeff Katz. It would be, if nothing more, interesting to watch.

Oh ya, that guy. He did finally release a battle royal. A battle royal, the sole result of a successful $100,000 Kickstarter campaign.

And when this goddam thing was pitched, people were losing their shit. This guy was going to change everything and finally give us the wrestling product we all deserved. I don't know where people got that idea, just based on that trailer he put out that had highlights of guys wrestling over music, and a promise to book wrestling more like Dexter and Breaking Bad, and to put out distinct 12-episode seasons. Oh, and promising that he was smarter than any currently established wrestling organization, even though he had no experience or connection with wrestling in any way.

And there's some big indy names in that battle royal - I don't think it's going to change wrestling forever though. Maybe I'd buy more into the idea that almost everything the WWE does is objectively terrible if there was someone else somewhere that was doing it "correctly", even on a limited scale. But TNA is also perceived as terrible. A lot of people like ROH, but it appeals to a very limited fanbase. The WWE could not copy that approach and be successful in the mainstream. Chikara is/was truly unique and different, but there was no way that was every going to grow, it was just too ridiculous.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

The Big Show's role here was to give the Authority an established guy to defeat along the way to whatever they're doing at the Rumble and Mania. That can't just be Daniel Bryan for the next 8 months. He'll be back, but he has been in the main event of 5 straight PPVs, and we really didn't need to see Orton/Bryan again.

They could have ditched the authority thing, given the belt to Bryan, and just have him as the babyface champion fending off heels for a while, ala CM Punk a year or two ago. I don't think that would have led to hugely higher buyrates or anything though, Bryan works much better as a title chaser than a champion (especially leading into Mania), and they can always do that later. Personally, I think Punk and Bryan interacting with the Wyatts is kind of fun, and makes the Wyatts seem a little more important than they did when they were fighting Brodus Clay every week. And it keeps Punk and Bryan away from the authority angle for the moment, which I like because I don't find any of that particularly compelling. People say they want storylines and angles going on outside the main event, but they really don't, fans have the same mindset - if you're not in the main event you're BURIED!!!

Edit: when I was a kid, my favorite wrestler was ricky steamboat. But it never once occurred to me that i was supossed to be angry and annoyed that the show didn't revolve around him all year. And he never got anything close to a daniel bryan kind of role. Bryan's done so much great stuff at all levels of the wwe card, but the run is still a disapointment, and people can't really appreciate him, because the show doesn't revolve around him at all times. If you're not into the main event angle, it's really not the end of the world - a lot of people preferred the midcard acts in the hogan era, or in wcw when hogan and piper were on top. (But those top guys appealed to advertisers and children with their parents' wallets, so there was a method to that too.)

Molson, I agree with you here, although I think the problem is perpetuated by the WWE. You're either the champion in the WWE or a complete jobber. Everybody else is made to look bad and to be humiliated constantly. If they spent nearly as much time building up guys as they do tearing them down, the WWE would be a much better place. Look at Daniel Bryan. He was in the main event for several PPV's, but at the same time HHH was out telling him that he was short and a B player, Mr McMahon called him a midget and a goat, and he got beaten up every week on TV without getting revenge.

That never happened to Ricky Steamboat.

So even though this guy was the focus face in the WWE for 3 months, I think he was actually made to look worse than he was while in the tag team with Kane. And that's your #2 face in the company after John Cena.

Imagine if during Stone Cold Steve Austin's buildup as a face in 1997:
Week 1 - "And that's the bottom line because Stone Cold said so!", then Jake Roberts came out and laid him out, and King of the Ring fades out with Stone Cold unconscious.
Week 2 - Weeks later in a McMahon vs. Austin showdown, Austin drives the zamboni into the arena. The crowd goes crazy, all giving each other the middle finger. All of a sudden the zamboni's wheels are both flat, and the McMahon family laughs as Austin is stuck in the middle of the aisle with nothing to do. Kane comes in and knocks Austin out as the credits roll.
Week 4 - Mr McMahon giving an interview in the middle of the ring. Austin drives up with a beer truck. He sprays Mr McMahon, only to have it backfire on him. He actually enjoys it since he likes beer, only to find out it's not beer, it's urine. McMahons rejoice.
Week 6 - Austin loses in the PPV main event. Ratings come in disapointing weeks later, McMahon blames Austin for not being able to draw.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Molson, I agree with you here, although I think the problem is perpetuated by the WWE. You're either the champion in the WWE or a complete jobber. Everybody else is made to look bad and to be humiliated constantly. If they spent nearly as much time building up guys as they do tearing them down, the WWE would be a much better place. Look at Daniel Bryan. He was in the main event for several PPV's, but at the same time HHH was out telling him that he was short and a B player, Mr McMahon called him a midget and a goat, and he got beaten up every week on TV without getting revenge.

That never happened to Ricky Steamboat.

So even though this guy was the focus face in the WWE for 3 months, I think he was actually made to look worse than he was while in the tag team with Kane. And that's your #2 face in the company after John Cena.

Imagine if during Stone Cold Steve Austin's buildup as a face in 1997:
Week 1 - "And that's the bottom line because Stone Cold said so!", then Jake Roberts came out and laid him out, and King of the Ring fades out with Stone Cold unconscious.
Week 2 - Weeks later in a McMahon vs. Austin showdown, Austin drives the zamboni into the arena. The crowd goes crazy, all giving each other the middle finger. All of a sudden the zamboni's wheels are both flat, and the McMahon family laughs as Austin is stuck in the middle of the aisle with nothing to do. Kane comes in and knocks Austin out as the credits roll.
Week 4 - Mr McMahon giving an interview in the middle of the ring. Austin drives up with a beer truck. He sprays Mr McMahon, only to have it backfire on him. He actually enjoys it since he likes beer, only to find out it's not beer, it's urine. McMahons rejoice.
Week 6 - Austin loses in the PPV main event. Ratings come in disapointing weeks later, McMahon blames Austin for not being able to draw.

The Austin push has some revisionist history attached. He followed up King of the Ring by wrestling in the Summerslam pre-show, where he was beaten down by Yokozuna, who made the rings ropes snap when he attempted a bonzai drop. Austin wasn't even on the next ppv. Then he was in the opening match of the next one against HHH when he had a feminine blue blood character. Then things started to pick up - with many, many losses to Bret Hart, which is booking that would be shitted on today, but I think it did definitely elevate him at the time. And it took quite a while longer before he was the center of the show. But he would have been declared dead and buried before that by today's fans, who would probably have their ability to appreciate his latter push compromised.

But I think you're right and there's definitely something to be said for keeping a guy as a strong midcard guy who wins most of the time over his career and is never made to look weak by main eventers (until the rare true main event push, which used to be rare, now everyone gets a chance). Like Ricky Steamboat's WWE run. But I think if we looked at Meltzer's newsletters of the day, and the early internet newsgroups, (which have a similar tone to the majority voice expressed on the internet today), I bet they'd be lamenting Steamboat's position on the card, and saying Hogan should be jobbing to Butch Reed or somebody in the midcard. That voice is just louder today. But according to that kind of theory, maybe Bryan shouldn't be interacting with main eventers at all, as a face, until he's at a place where he's going to win convincingly most of the time - IF they pick him, instead of Punk, and instead of everyone else, and are ready to truly demote Cena. (I think you can have too many #1 unstoppable face main eventers, and that max number is low, probably 2) BUT, if they take him away from the main event and they have him beat the Wyatts - see, we don't like that either, because he's outside the main event. If he shows any weakness, ever, there's angry people - which maybe is a sign that he should be the #1 guy instead of Punk or Cena, but they have to be worried about how that appeal will translate to the kids, and it's not like his big angles have moved numbers.

[Mota]

I really think that the WWE could produce different results just by changing the way they give us the results.

First of all, stop putting down your wrestlers. All WWE wrestlers are great. They are the best of the best and that's why they are in the WWE. If anybody is mediocre, they belong in the minor leagues. On that note, after you've jobbed out a guy for a year, replace him with a new young wrestler that is looking for that spot. We know that R Truth is selling 0 tickets. Why take up a spot on the roster for him? Job job job, and then GO.

Do: Make your main eventers look strong. They don't cower to authority. Don't put them in dumb skits. Save that for the soon-to-be released wrestlers like Great Khali. Main eventers don't always win, but it's how they lose that determines how the fans think, and how the show is booked around those losses. If you give a main eventer a loss, go to commercial and don't mention it again, it means nothing. If the announcers talk about it, you get an interview after with the wrestler and show how he's feeling, then that is storytelling.

Don't: Use start/stop booking. It confuses the fans. We're actually less likely to get on board with a newer wrestler because management is likely to stop that push just as we're getting into them.

Don't: Constantly use false advertising. By promising things and constantly fooling the fans, they stop believing you. Does anybody here believe that the titles will be unified at TLC? I don't. And that should be a big moment in the company. With two belts hanging, that's pretty much a guarantee that they either come down the ladders with their own belts or that they just swap titles, putting Cena back with the #1 title once again.

Do: put your wrestlers in programs that are interesting, even if they're not in the title picture. Shield has been great and they've looked strong for the most part. You could have 3 main eventers the way it's going right now, keep it up. For the most part though, if you're not in the top 2 programs, you're in a random match every week and don't have any storytelling. If you don't care enough to put something together, neither do we.

Do: use authority figures and guests as props to make your stars look better, not the other way around. Sorry, but Stephanie McMahon is not selling a PPV. Big Show is. Look how fast the crowd abandoned him after he got his job back and they instantly made him look like a moron.

Do: Keep things fresh. Hey, did you know that John Cena is 10-7 against Randy Orton in PPV matches? For anybody who is going to say that you need matches to fill up the cards, no one forced them to put on that many PPV's and TV shows, and to focus on so few wrestlers.

And my #1 BY FAR...

Do: get bookers and management that actually like wrestling. You can feel the derision and hate and bullying coming through the voices of the owners and writers. That doesn't feel fun to me. I don't feel that they love what they are doing. So why should we?

[molson]

Agree 100% on the more fluid roster. Guys should be coming and going constantly.

I don't believe the cynical fans would change their views on the product based on any of the other changes. Which of course, makes me super-cynical about them, which I admit I have a problem with I've been following this thread since 2006, and the tone has been negative the entire time, even though so many different booking strategies have been implemented. And I think a lot of those proposed steps contradict each other. You don't want stop-start booking, but you also want to keep things fresh with new matchups. Which even if you've played TEW, you know is tough to do when you have so many shows.

Edit: And the Shield is great and fun, but how many other guys should have that push? All of them? There is so much more angst about guys not winning enough than there is about winning too much. But if you decide to go with the Shield as a big deal, it does necessary have to push Ryback down a notch, because they had his number and beat him a lot. (and he never got his revenge). Which is fine if you want to go that way, but there's only so many guys you can book to be that strong at the same time. Ryback has that long PPV losing streak that is seen as a huge WWE failure, but a lot of that was because he was putting over the Shield, (which made the Shield stronger) and losing to the WWE Champion because they though Rock/Punk might be a better program than Rock/Ryback. (personally I would have loved to see the Rock v. Ryback promos, but that's just me). You have to make choices, or just have Ryback squash jobbers and midcarders for longer. Once you book people strongly, against other big stars, shit gets very crowded at the top. And if you decide to remove Ryback from that Shield feud to protect him, you have to feed someone else to the Shield, probably a lesser star, and the Shield probably doesn't come off as strong. The company liked Ryback, but they obviously saw him more as a future heel than a mega-babyface star, so he could lose, which was probably for the best since he's so limited in the ring (Job-Job-Job HEEL TURN is a tried and true thing that I think makes sense most of the time - and that last job, which was kind of shocking, clean to Mark Henry at Mania, led right to Henry's main event feud with Cena. So it all made sense, even though we're not particularly compelled by it because its formulaic and we've seen it all before)

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

But I think you're right and there's definitely something to be said for keeping a guy as a strong midcard guy who wins most of the time over his career and is never made to look weak by main eventers (until the rare true main event push, which used to be rare, now everyone gets a chance). Like Ricky Steamboat's WWE run. But I think if we looked at Meltzer's newsletters of the day, and the early internet newsgroups, (which have a similar tone to the majority voice expressed on the internet today), I bet they'd be lamenting Steamboat's position on the card, and saying Hogan should be jobbing to Butch Reed or somebody in the midcard.

I actually think that's a good idea. You can have a guy in a good mid-card role and make him out to be the best of the 2nd best, without making him look weak and feeding him to the top guys in random spots. Much harder in today's environment considering they have to wrestle on TV 2-3 times a week though. There's definite detriments to the amount of programming they need to put on every week.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't believe the cynical fans would change their views on the product based on any of the other changes. Which of course, makes me super-cynical about them. I've been following this thread since 2006, and the tone has been negative the entire time, even though so many different booking strategies have been implemented. And I think a lot of those proposed steps contradict each other. You don't want stop-start booking, but you also want to keep things fresh with new matchups. Which even if you've played TEW, you know is tough to do when you have so many shows.

I have played TEW but I find the pace required to play successfully is too slow and it doesn't feel like fun. I would actually prefer a kayfabe version where you put together the matches and the engine would simulate the results based on the wrestler ratings. Like you're the matchmaker of a real pro wrestling league. Kinda like TNM 7.0 but not running DOS. Seems like it would be more fun than trying to figure out if wrestler X has enough stamina to put him in a 14 minute segment or if it'll bomb, so extend that skit in segment 8 to 6 minutes to compensate. Sometimes it feels like Showrunner Simulator 2014 instead of a wrestling booker. They have made the tools to put together the shows a lot better over the versions, which does help.

But ... Wrestling Spirit 3 demo is out today! I'm downloading it right now. This is the kayfabe version but it's more like a fighting simulator instead of booking. If they made some improvements to the match engine it could be a lot of fun.

[RainMaker]

I think making the secondary belts matter would help. I don't see the point in putting the IC on someone like Axel and then have him lose every week. Build storylines around it and protect the champions a bit. Like you said molson, having strong mid-carders that don't get fed to main eventers every week is beneficial.

I also don't understand the ups and downs. Ryback was being put in 3 on 1 matches and winning. Now he's losing to Kofi Kingston 6 months later. Now I understand if they didn't want him to be a main eventer, but you built up this monster for months, use him to push other guys.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

... I don't think it's possible for a major American wrestling company to put out a product that would be considered "good" by this portion of cynical fans who express themselves on the internet.

I see a similarity to the rock music genre(s) there. Perhaps with both (and even to a lesser extent with television programming as well) there's simply too many sub-genres that each have their own fan base that now has an expectation for it to be catered to for any product to have truly majority appeal. A plurality might be all that's reasonable to hope for in an era when TV networks cater to 10 year demo ranges.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I see a similarity to the rock music genre(s) there. Perhaps with both (and even to a lesser extent with television programming as well) there's simply too many sub-genres that each have their own fan base that now has an expectation for it to be catered to for any product to have truly majority appeal. A plurality might be all that's reasonable to hope for in an era when TV networks cater to 10 year demo ranges.

Good point, but I wish that phenomenon helped out the little guys more. Maybe it's a bias because I'm a fan, but it seems like there's SO many wrestling fans out there, and SO many who aren't happy with the WWE product, yet the 2nd biggest promotion can barely get 300 people to a TV taping (while offering FREE tickets, mind you), and great talent wrestles in front of considerably smaller crowds than that all across the country. And unlike the 90s, you can see any of this stuff on the internet, and ROH even has a TV deal and backing that rivals what ECW had in the early days when it became a cult thing.

And you also have things like Nikolai Volcoff wrestling Bobby Fulton, in 2013, on a gym mat, as opposed to a ring, in front of maybe 20 people (the promoter hilariously claims 97 fans on the video description) (This is a different situation entirely, but still pretty crazy to watch): And there's been great wrestlers who have wrestled in front of even smaller crowds than this.

(EXCLUSIVE VIDEO) Bobby Fulton vs Nikolai Volkoff... NO RING!!! - YouTube

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mota

I have played TEW but I find the pace required to play successfully is too slow and it doesn't feel like fun. I would actually prefer a kayfabe version where you put together the matches and the engine would simulate the results based on the wrestler ratings. Like you're the matchmaker of a real pro wrestling league. Kinda like TNM 7.0 but not running DOS. Seems like it would be more fun than trying to figure out if wrestler X has enough stamina to put him in a 14 minute segment or if it'll bomb, so extend that skit in segment 8 to 6 minutes to compensate. Sometimes it feels like Showrunner Simulator 2014 instead of a wrestling booker. They have made the tools to put together the shows a lot better over the versions, which does help.

But ... Wrestling Spirit 3 demo is out today! I'm downloading it right now. This is the kayfabe version but it's more like a fighting simulator instead of booking. If they made some improvements to the match engine it could be a lot of fun.

Man I miss TNM7 something fierce. I used to have notebooks full of cards booked out like 1 year in advance in TNM. Fuckin awesome.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

I have played TEW but I find the pace required to play successfully is too slow and it doesn't feel like fun.

FWIW, in TEW10 I've managed to find a way to have some reasonable pace for a lengthy session (i.e. several hours of play) but there is a good bit of work that goes into it to make that happen. I basically have a grid template that I use (along with a hugely detailed spreadsheet of my entire enormous roster) that lets me plan matches for an entire quarter. With 2 shows a week + 1 monthly PPV, once that grunt work is done I can crank out shows relatively quickly.

It's far from perfect but it's an improvement over past versions at least.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

Agree 100% on the more fluid roster. Guys should be coming and going constantly.

Originally Posted by Mota

I actually think that's a good idea. You can have a guy in a good mid-card role and make him out to be the best of the 2nd best, without making him look weak and feeding him to the top guys in random spots. Much harder in today's environment considering they have to wrestle on TV 2-3 times a week though. There's definite detriments to the amount of programming they need to put on every week.

This. They have a huge roster but half the guys aren't even seen in the ring for months. If you want to make Daniel Bryan vs. Randy Orton or John Cena vs. Alberto Del Rio to be a big deal that gets good buyrates, don't give away that match 4 times in the month leading up to the PPV. It's ok to have jobber/squash matches where "Main Event" guys beat up on the Zack Ryder's and R-Truth's of the world - just don't have guys that could be main eventers like Daniel Bryan, Ryback, Dolph Ziggler be the guys getting squashed and losing quickly.

Sure some people will complain about it, but having a couple extra 4-5 minute matches replace some of the extended talking and skits is a good thing, and I really do think seeing both guys wrestle (and win) with an occasional matchup between top guys in the last hour of Raw will get people more excited to see their eventual matchup (at a PPV) than having them talk for 15 minutes every week or see one guy constantly win.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by molson

Good point, but I wish that phenomenon helped out the little guys more. Maybe it's a bias because I'm a fan, but it seems like there's SO many wrestling fans out there, and SO many who aren't happy with the WWE product, yet the 2nd biggest promotion can barely get 300 people to a TV taping (while offering FREE tickets, mind you), and great talent wrestles in front of considerably smaller crowds than that all across the country. And unlike the 90s, you can see any of this stuff on the internet, and ROH even has a TV deal and backing that rivals what ECW had in the early days when it became a cult thing.

And you also have things like Nikolai Volcoff wrestling Bobby Fulton, in 2013, on a gym mat, as opposed to a ring, in front of maybe 20 people (the promoter hilariously claims 97 fans on the video description) (This is a different situation entirely, but still pretty crazy to watch): And there's been great wrestlers who have wrestled in front of even smaller crowds than this.

(EXCLUSIVE VIDEO) Bobby Fulton vs Nikolai Volkoff... NO RING!!! - YouTube

thats sad.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

thats sad.

+1, there has to be a time when you have to say it's time to move on. Feel bad these guys are reduced to that, even it may be due to their own failure to plan ahead.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

+1, there has to be a time when you have to say it's time to move on. Feel bad these guys are reduced to that, even it may be due to their own failure to plan ahead.

FWIW, Volcoff, who always comes off like one of the nicest guys in wrestling, spoke out on this after the video went viral and somehow managed to make it seem a little less sad:

"I want to address what seems many are talking about in regards to a show I worked in Ohio over the weekend where there was no ring. I as you know am strictly a performer. I try to be a man of my word and if a promoter books me and pays me what we agree upon I have no problem working on a mat rather than a ring. It does not matter if 10 people show up or 93,000 plus I have a commitment to my fans and the promoter to give them what they want. I wrestle for fun, to stay in shape, and make a few bucks in the process. Everything that I own and have is because of the great fans of wrestling that allowed me to live the American dream. It was a fun match on Saturday. I would have done it all over again as long I can make you all smile. As a man that escaped a tough government and came here with $50 in 1968, I sure am smiling and that's due to all of you. God bless, Nikolai"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Channel surfing tonight while trying (and failing) sleep, ran across some of the worst TV wrestling I've seen in a long time. Dish Network has something called The Pursuit Channel and Friday's at 1a Eastern/12m Central brings TCW (Traditional Championship Wrestling). Some stuff is not only not-ready-for-primetime but is even not-ready-for-late-night-TV. Had the misfortune of seeing minor indy notable Vordell Walker take on some guy called Sigmon in a match that was like a how-NOT-to video for TV wrestling. They made the classic mistake of letting the cameras be too close to guys who oversell moves that wouldn't even make a grandmother flinch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dirtsheets say TNA & A.J. Styles failed to reach agreement & that he legit leaves the company when his contract extension expires on Dec 16.

I saw him work very early in his career, green as grass, for the old NWA-Georgia. Even then you knew he was a different critter than the standard indy fare so I really hate the notion of this sort of thing.

[Flasch186]

He'll make a HUGE smash moving to WWE for about 2 shows and then be buried.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

He'll make a HUGE smash moving to WWE for about 2 shows and then be buried.

Doubtful. They've been very open about having zero interest in him. Looks like non-wrestling projects and/or a return to ROH.

[miami_fan]

Thanks! I am now trapped on Youtube looking at old school wrestling videos.

[Neuqua]

@WWECreative_ish may very well be my favorite twitter account in existence.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

He'll make a HUGE smash moving to WWE for about 2 shows and then be buried.

Yeah he'd be Styling Alan Johnson or something.

[molson]

If you're not watching RAW these days, the "championship ascension ceremony" that ended the show last week is worth checking out. Just catching up on it now. That was some great stuff, from the facial expressions of the guys in the ring when Stephanie was talking, to Seattle melting down for Daniel Bryan, to John Cena deciding he was going to be a babyface to these fans for this show and pulling it off by the end of his promo, to the chaos at the end.

And watching this, I'm as sure as ever that HHH is trying to be the IWC heel AND the on-screen kayfabe heel all in the same character. The Seattle fans are supposed to think that they're "hijacking" the segment by interrupting HHH's promo with Daniel Bryan chants, but that's exactly what he wants them to do. I'm not sure if this all isn't a little too cute to make a compelling wrestling storyline, but it is starting to get kind of fun watching HHH trying to do it, I wasn't really interested in this storyline until now.

WWE Raw 12/9/13 Full Show - YouTube
(starts at 2:07:55 - couldn't find a clip of just the ending).

[Toddzilla]

Cena reminds me so much of Hogan in the ring it's eerie. When he's booked to lose Cena is so much more believable in the ring - watching last night, after 10 minutes I thought to myself "there's not much Cartoon Superman Cena so far - he's gonna lose."

Back in the WCW Nitro days if you watch Hogan's matches, when he's booked to lose he really works his ass off - he's got to do something to look good and save as much face as possible, something he doesn't need to do if he wins. So much so it's blatant if you know to look for it. Now Cena does the same thing.

[PilotMan]

Well my 10yr old has discovered pro wrestling. I was huge into it when I was his age, so he comes by it honestly. It makes me smile, I just wish it was as good as I remember it being back then.

[Mota]

So what do you guys think of a single WWE champion now? Randy Orton, the WWE World Heavyweight Champion.

I think it's about time, especially since the World Heavyweight Title was such a B title for years now. It really meant nothing.

Although I don't know what Alberto Del Rio will do now. I think his career lifespan was extended because of that title. Now he'll probably be a straight up jobber.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Although I don't know what Alberto Del Rio will do now. I think his career lifespan was extended because of that title. Now he'll probably be a straight up jobber.

I think he's needed a gimmick change for years now. I still think he's a really good worker - he can actually do the high-flying lucha stuff, but also has the size and mat ability to be credible in the WWE. I don't know how he talks in real life, but he needs to stop using that "important rich guy" cadence he uses in the WWE. Maybe he'd be better if he just talked normal and instead of being rich, was just really snarky about how awesome Mexican wrestling and his family is. He seems like an annoying guy, there's gotta be something like that in there.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by molson

I think he's needed a gimmick change for years now. I still think he's a really good worker - he can actually do the high-flying lucha stuff, but also has the size and mat ability to be credible in the WWE. I don't know how he talks in real life, but he needs to stop using that "important rich guy" cadence he uses in the WWE. Maybe he'd be better if he just talked normal and instead of being rich, was just really snarky about how awesome Mexican wrestling and his family is. He seems like an annoying guy, there's gotta be something like that in there.

I have nothing to add here, except to say that Alberto has balls. He got into the ring with Cro Cop, and if that didn't knock the snarky out of him IRL, then I'm not sure what would do it.