FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[panerd]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

That's a great lesson and all, but is entirely unrelated (and contradictory) to you calling them out as Democrats.

Yeah locally the first couple of days were littered with typical MAGA comments. Love how snopes uses Orwellian double speak... "Yes he donated to Democrats including a lot recently BUT..."

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yeah locally the first couple of days were littered with typical MAGA comments. Love how snopes uses Orwellian double speak... "Yes he donated to Democrats including a lot recently BUT..."

LOL Orwellian double speak? You called them Democrats, with no context, probably because you saw the same dumb meme that Snopes references in its article. Yet Snopes is Orwellian for being more thorough.

[GrantDawg]

Nuance means double speak. If it doesn't make a simple sound-bite, it can't be true.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

LOL Orwellian double speak? You called them Democrats, with no context, probably because you saw the same dumb meme that Snopes references in its article. Yet Snopes is Orwellian for being more thorough.

No I live in St. Louis and am very familiar with what is going on. Glad the rest of the country is getting exposed to St. Louis idiocracy though.

[cuervo72]

Same stellar logic that argues the KKK are Democrats.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

No we didn't, and you know that. This is a trollish response.

It's not, and I know no such thing.

I find it equal parts amusing and tragic from a psychological point of view when people presume that I can't actually believe the things I do, particularly when it seems clear to me they haven't fully reckoned with the implications of their statements. If my intention was purely to troll, I wouldn't have purposefully left open an invitation for clarifying such.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It's not, and I know no such thing.

I find it equal parts amusing and tragic from a psychological point of view when people presume that I can't actually believe the things I do, particularly when it seems clear to me they haven't fully reckoned with the implications of their statements. If my intention was purely to troll, I wouldn't have purposefully left open an invitation for clarifying such.

Let it go.

We should be able to agree to disagree without getting insulting, I'm guessing it's bad habits learn from other boards.

For some here, it's an Pavlovian response to insult at the personal level, just like playing the racism (vs prejudice/bigot) card. And if you get down to that personal insult level, there's hypocritical outrage.

[Brian Swartz]

Maybe there's something I don't get, but I don't think either what he or I said were personal insults. I agree that it's a bad tactic, and I've been guilty of it before, but I see nothing of that in what I said.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Maybe there's something I don't get, but I don't think either what he or I said were personal insults. I agree that it's a bad tactic, and I've been guilty of it before, but I see nothing of that in what I said.

I agree, I don't see any insults coming from you. You don't think being accused of being a troll is an insult?

[Brian Swartz]

Might be semantics, but the phrasing was 'trollish response'. I read that as being addressed to what I said, not me personally. I think it's different than saying 'you're just a troll' or whatever.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Might be semantics, but the phrasing was 'trollish response'. I read that as being addressed to what I said, not me personally. I think it's different than saying 'you're just a troll' or whatever.

Hah, I see your interpretation ... but ...

Nah, you are too nice !!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

And there's the crux of it. Like so many issues, we can't come to agreement when we aren't even interested in asking the same questions.

I just don't see the point in arguing semantics on this particular law when most of out justice system isn't based on it. They are likely wealthy enough where laws like that don't apply to them anyway. Like arguing about insider trading when we know no one is going to get busted for it.

My point was that these people are assholes throughout their life. They aren't innocent victims.

[thesloppy]

Yeah. I mean that profile details that their entire lives are practically based around abusing technicalities of property law in order to take other people's things. Folks can say that they want to hold them to the same exact same technical standards as a court but I don't see why anybody else has to.

...and if they've donated to Donald Trump let's not pretend they can be labeled as Democrats, regardless of any other history.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

My point was that these people are assholes throughout their life. They aren't innocent victims.

Two thumbs up to this, so even though they may be within the law, they have built up enough bad karma over the years to STFU and suffer through the negativity.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Two thumbs up to this, so even though they may be within the law, they have built up enough bad karma over the years to STFU and suffer through the negativity.

Therein lies the challenge. Until we as a nation apply the law equally to each citizen, nothing is going to change. We have seen countless "Karen" videos, where innocent minorities are subjected to bogus 911 calls, sometimes with the deadly consequence of militarizing the police response. This must be eradicated.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Therein lies the challenge. Until we as a nation apply the law equally to each citizen, nothing is going to change. We have seen countless "Karen" videos, where innocent minorities are subjected to bogus 911 calls, sometimes with the deadly consequence of militarizing the police response. This must be eradicated.

Agree 100% and it just spirals. Cancel culture on the other end of the spectrum gets over zealous, this inflames racists and asshole more and the divide grows because there is no uniting presence in much of this countries local and national leadership. Just a lot of reactionarys trying too hard to appeal to their bases and the media loves it.

[Vegas Vic]

The video of the George Floyd killing by Minneapolis cops told an undeniable story, one of racism, police brutality and the lack of trust between minority communities and the law enforcement agencies that are supposed to protect them.

The video of the killing by Detroit cops of Hakim Littleton also tells an indisputable story of what America would look like if those who are controlling the conversation today succeed in neutering police.

Detroit Police Chief James Craig wisely released the bodycam recording showing a man identified as Littleton firing a handgun point blank at an officer who was attempting to arrest a suspect in a triple homicide.

It didn’t stop protesters from trying to fit this shooting into the George Floyd mold, but it did raise important questions about whether the Black Lives Matter movement is really after justice, or simply chaos.

Finley: Video confirms cops aren't always wrong

Video shows fatal shooting of 20-year-old was justified: Detroit police

[sterlingice]

I don't want to speak for BLM, but I'm guessing it's to stop the ones where they kill people unjustified. And I'm going to cut a little slack on them assuming all of them are unjustified because so damn many have been.

SI

[Vegas Vic]

“I think that a total elimination is something we need to reevaluate,” said Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams. “Right now, bad guys are saying if you don’t see a blue and white you can do whatever you want.”

Community activist Tony Herbert agrees.

“The guns keep going off and now we have a 1-year-old and the blood is on the hands of the mayor and the state Legislature,” said Herbert.

Mayor Bill de Blasio decried the shootings.

“This is not anything we can allow in our city. It is heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking for so many reasons and begins with the fact that there are just so many guns out there and that is a New York tragedy,” de Blasio said.

But the mayor did not propose any new solutions to ending the gun violence. This, as shootings for the week went up 277%, 49 compared to 13 in 2019. The number of victims is up 253%, 60 compared to 17 in 2019.

In Wake Of Continued Gun Violence, Prominent Members Of Black Community Call On NYPD To Bring Back Anti-Crime Unit

[PilotMan]

If only those people had more guns to defend themselves. Gun violence would surely head downward.

[RainMaker]

JEFFERSON PARISH, 16-Mar: A @JeffParishSO deputy gets caught planting drugs on an innocent man.

The cop realizess he’s being filmed and chases the person filming.

The Sheriffs later released a statement that they did nothing wrong. [�� @PrettyJasBadAss] pic.twitter.com/ukHOIGvuXl

— Chad Loder (@chadloder) July 11, 2020

[AlexB]

My sister in law shared this a couple of days back, which although is UK focussed,I thought is applicable in some sense on a wider scale:

The Point of Failure – policecommander

[Edward64]

Okay, this is really going too far. Keep your mittens off my coffee.

Bums, go work for Seattle's Best or whatever.

'The ends don't justify the beans': Employees call on Starbucks to divest from Seattle Police - seattlepi.com

Protesters gathered at several Starbucks locations in downtown Seattle, including Pike Place Market, on Thursday to demand that Starbucks divest funds from the Seattle Police Foundation.

The protesters included baristas and Black Lives Matter supporters who could be heard chanting "We ain’t shopping at Starbucks no more" while marching up Pike Street to Capitol Hill. Others held signs that said "The ends don't justify the beans" and "No coffee with cops."

The group claims that Starbucks gave at least $10,000 to the Seattle Police Foundation in 2019, a number reinforced by Starbucks' status as a "Silver Shield Donor" on the SPF's donor page.

[ISiddiqui]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/17/us/he...mug/index.html

The head of the New York Police Department's second-largest police union gave a television interview Friday afternoon while sitting in front of a mug emblazoned with QAnon imagery and slogans.

Well that's a bit concerning...

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[thesloppy]

Apparently this is the third interview he's done with that mug prominently placed.

[CU Tiger]

I have debated internally whether to share this.
But I think its worth the read provided that I give the context in which I encountered it.

First I have no idea the history, ideology, or leaning of the host site.
Second I know literally nothing of either contributing member to the article.
I have feared sharing here because in that past when Ive done so, someone has pointed to an age old transgression someone committed and assumed some ulterior motive from me that didn't exist. In this case I want to state up front none of that is there. I own and administer a small hobbyist forum for a niche genre of automotive enthusiasts...I think that's the best way to describe it. We have a bunch of tech articles and a catch all "What's happening" thread. This forum today is roughly the same size as FOFC in terms of active members, but at our peak we had ~20k members. Today its mostly old "e-friends" who talk about their race cars, share pics of their kids, and occasionally venture into politics.

ts an interesting study to me, as I find myself to be one of the further "right" leaners here, yet on that forum Im about the furthest "left"..just a different demographic make-up.

That said the conversation there turned to BLM, riots and racial injustice after one of the members who is a law enforcement officer had his work vehicle destroyed during a protest and there was a lot of good conversation and a small bit of stupidity that led to me perma-banning a 10 year member, whom I was a groomsmen in his wedding, who outed himself as well closeted bigot.

That aside the following interview was linked and Ive read it now 3 times. Its a long read. Has some very good points. And some, naturally, I am not as aligned with. I hope someone here finds it interesting, I think this group may appreciate it.

With all that intro and disclaimer aside I share:
https://www.city-journal.org/convers...e-and-equality

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

perma-banning a 10 year member, whom I was a groomsmen in his wedding, who outed himself as well closeted bigot.

Eesh, that's always the worst. And then asking yourself how you could have missed the signs. Sorry to hear you had to deal with that.

[BYU 14]

I am going to have to two part read that interview, but thanks for sharing CU. He does make some interesting points, and the 'hysteria' that is happening currently is one of them. Like it or not, some people go over the top with trying to be crusaders and the problem right now is it's tough to call them out on their bullshit because of the current environment, or you risk being labeled racist.

I am definitely not willfully or unwittingly ignorant about racism in this country, and while I can't say what is like to walk in the shoes of a person of color, my life experiences give me as much of a taste as I would ever want. But, being on my position, I feel I have a very unique perspective of how both blacks and some whites see the issues and current climate gives me two very real worries.

1-Racism being marginalized by the current rush to counter culture everything, deemed even the slightest bit offensive by anybody. There is a huge difference between tearing down statues of traitors to the united states, who should never have been honored. And politicking to have the word master dropped from master bedroom, or pressuring the Texas Rangers to change their name.

This overkill drives potential allies away because they see it as just that, overkill. I have seen it in my circle of acquaintances. People, who never expressed a need/desire to be involved in social justice issues coming out in STRONG in support of the black community and needed change right after the George Floyd murder. Only to see that enthusiasm wane as cancel culture hit warp speed, riots/violence raged and they were bombarded with alarmist messages by some far right groups/politicians. Achieving true change needs to done through a determined, thoughtful and targeted approach, taking aim on where the true problems that lead to systemic racism lie and it is not found in attacking a baseball team or proving how woke you are on twitter.

2-My second worry is this country needs a change in leadership badly! I honestly don't see how Trump can win in November, but if there is one thing we have learned it is democrats often find a way to screw up any advantage they have they have already done some cringe worthy things. (Taking a knee in Kente cloth anyone?) I mean seriously, fuck the theatrics. Develop a plan to improve economic outcomes in poor communities, reform the Police through more resources and training, give them the tools they need to do a damn hard job, not just a gun and their union reps card. Criminal reform, so a 20 year old black man popped selling a half ounce of weed to get money doesn't have his life ruined for a substance that should have been decriminalized long ago. None of this will be remotely possible if this admin wins again in November, because Trump will just feel empowered to continue his divisive rhetoric and pandering to the racist extreme in our society.

Biden, flaws aside is a moderate, which is my preference from either side and he has relationships and generally respect across the aisle. If he surrounds himself with a strong, bipartisan cabinet, as he has suggested, he could effectuate real change. If Trump wins we continue the spiral and the anarchist, like we have on Portland, continue to have a field day watching society crumble and turn against each other. It is just imperative for those in positions of power to see how their messages are perceived by everyone, not just their bases.

And that sucks about your relationship with that member in your group CU. I have cut a couple of people out of my life when they revealed their inner bigot and I am hard on myself for misjudging them, though I suppose some hide it well.

[Edward64]

Watching Newsroom s2. Overall really enjoying this series (but could do with less of the stupid Maggie relationship drama though), reminds me of The West Wing (no surprise with Sorkin) but faster paced.

Episode last night was about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Essentially, the multiple characters in the Newsroom were saying/coaching/criticizing a representative of OWS (an adjunct professor I think) and telling her (I'm paraphrasing) no central leader(s), confusing messaging, what is the (realistic) end goal etc.

This is similar to my thoughts in BLM. I've said before here that IMO to win over more of the public and really make substantial changes, BLM needs the more traditional organization vs seemingly hap hazard grass roots with mixed & confusing messaging.

The BLM protests has certainly brought more awareness front-and-center but has it really accomplished much so far? Did OWS do much?

I really, really hope that Biden does something here on his first 90 days "Let me introduce my good friend Barack/Michelle ..." to help heal and bring along some "moderate/centrist" and acceptable changes to the country as a whole.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

With all that intro and disclaimer aside I share:
https://www.city-journal.org/convers...e-and-equality

I found it mildly interesting but mostly frustrating.

Structural racism is dismissed apparently because there is not enough of a connection made in his opinion between the history of oppression and current circumstances. And he proceeds to make no connections of his own or even attempt to explain why this is, so I guess we can just safely dismiss that. And we can also seemingly safely dismiss racism just because some white people are in the same circumstances as blacks.

Really? This is really an argument? The fact that 20% of blacks are in poverty but 8% of whites is mostly just the blacks' inability to "overcome their circumstances", because whites have been able to do it?

It sounds like the old tired "breakdown of the family" argument I have seen many, many times. Black people do worse because they are more likely to have a single parent or "broken" home.

Are we really still giving these arguments a fair hearing? They should've been discarded to the waste bin LONG AGO.

What I got out of this:

Step 1: Blacks have to want to improve their lot.
Step 2: ?????
Step 3: Black life is improved!

Not great. Despite his assertions, there are many, MANY studies based around how much more likely blacks are to suffer from extreme use of force, or get over-sentenced for crime, or even simply be harassed by police than whites, WITH controls over their circumstances that he seems to dismiss. Who's using confirmation bias now? I would argue this dude is.

[CU Tiger]

Like I said I found some points very insightful and some...confirmation bias is a good summary.

What I cant isolate in my mind is what role culture plays in the interaction. Of course no two situations are identical, but it is undeniable that among a large portion of the African American culture that violence is glorified and that cooperation in any form with law enforcement is vilified.
Music among other avenues perpetuates this agenda. There is a sub-segment that even prejudices towards illegally begotten gains being preferential to those obtained from traditional methods.

I've seen kids I coached mocked for having part time jobs. And told that money wasn't 'as real' as 'street money'...its a pervasive almost counter culture.

So if kids grow up under this belief system and then act differently towards law enforcement officials because of this, then that causes a different reaction, which further prejudices the community and further biases their behavior in future interactions, which stimulates further LEO prejudices and stereo-types which influences their behavior ...and its a viscous downward spiral.

To be clear, Im not saying it should or that it justifies unequal policing, but I am saying flawed human nature being what it is - it does.

I don't know what point Im even hoping to make. I want things to be better but dont know how to help. I hope someone smarter than I comes along with some systemic answers...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

it is undeniable that among a large portion of the African American culture that violence is glorified and that cooperation in any form with law enforcement is vilified.

So I was having a discussion on these lines with someone else (he was talking about gangsta rap - I pointed out that hasn't existed in any real form since the early to mid 2000s and then they pivoted to all rap), and I pointed out video games and the person quickly tried to distinguish it (without real success, IMO). Because the gaming community has reacted quite hostile to the notion that violence is glorified in gaming and that may lead to violence in the community.

Now I'm not saying that gaming or music actually makes people more violent. It is undeniable that rap music has gained a LOT of white fans and you don't really see a difference there. And a lot of games involve basically shooting other people in the head (well, if you are good enough ). Basically I'd be somewhat careful of assigning cultural causes.

The cooperation with law enforcement I'd would say is an issue, but it's an issue that goes both ways. It likely started due to law enforcement treating black folks differently, which led to black folks not wanting to cooperate with law enforcement and that sort of thing has continued. Black folks generally don't trust law enforcement at all.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So I was having a discussion on these lines with someone else (he was talking about gangsta rap - I pointed out that hasn't existed in any real form since the early to mid 2000s and then they pivoted to all rap), and I pointed out video games and the person quickly tried to distinguish it (without real success, IMO). Because the gaming community has reacted quite hostile to the notion that violence is glorified in gaming and that may lead to violence in the community.

Now I'm not saying that gaming or music actually makes people more violent. It is undeniable that rap music has gained a LOT of white fans and you don't really see a difference there. And a lot of games involve basically shooting other people in the head (well, if you are good enough ). Basically I'd be somewhat careful of assigning cultural causes.

The cooperation with law enforcement I'd would say is an issue, but it's an issue that goes both ways. It likely started due to law enforcement treating black folks differently, which led to black folks not wanting to cooperate with law enforcement and that sort of thing has continued. Black folks generally don't trust law enforcement at all.

I get the video game parallel, and its a good one.
I think the difference I'd suggest is that everyone knows video games are fake. They are fiction. Realistic fiction for sure, but fiction.
Many kids (and plenty of "adults") believe that every line in a song is real. People who they see as "role models" because of their success claim to have acquired the success by acting this way. Whether that's selling or stealing or killing...even though in many (most?) cases the rappers didnt actually live that life they claim as their own. (21 Savage being the most high profile case - but numerous others have been outed as well)


Also to your point, certainly rap has plenty of white fans and isnt just a black music. And there in, within the "rap culture" there are a lot of whites that idolize those same virtues and largely have the same experience with cops I'd suggest.

But I think especially that is why the disadvantage language is so dangerous. Kids arent dumb. And when they hear that the deck is stacked against them and they cant succeed, they can begin to believe it and begin to believe that the wrong way is the only way.

Man My A.D.D. is kicking my ass right now I cant get one clear thought out.

This is what I feel in my heart, and I acknowledge it may be wrong, needs to be the message that is getting missed.

Both of these items are true. And Both need to be heard.
1) yes there are biases and prejudices that exist that frequently make it harder for minorities in this country and those needs to be addressed, and eliminated.
2) Despite #1 it is still possible for minorities to exceed, excel and thrive. And while we agree #1 needs to be fixed it can not be used as a crutch to allow an individual to accept a fate less than their ideal. While we agree progress needs to be made, and we agree it shouldn't be harder, that cant be the excuse to give up or accept the status quo.

I think #2 is where I get frustrated with a lot of the narrative. It seems to pain a picture that its hopeless and useless to even try and succeed if you are a minority. I think that message is a slap int he face to minorities who over come the odds. It makes their accomplishments dismisive as luck or happenstance. When they should be idolized and idealized as a way.

Specific to music, I find it an interesting dichotomy how traditional country/western music idealized the common man who worked hard but had little compared to modern music idealizing the materialism and riches while at times demonizing the work....

[AlexB]

Edit: Gotta learn to read properly

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I get the video game parallel, and its a good one.
I think the difference I'd suggest is that everyone knows video games are fake. They are fiction. Realistic fiction for sure, but fiction.
Many kids (and plenty of "adults") believe that every line in a song is real. People who they see as "role models" because of their success claim to have acquired the success by acting this way. Whether that's selling or stealing or killing...even though in many (most?) cases the rappers didnt actually live that life they claim as their own. (21 Savage being the most high profile case - but numerous others have been outed as well)


Also to your point, certainly rap has plenty of white fans and isnt just a black music. And there in, within the "rap culture" there are a lot of whites that idolize those same virtues and largely have the same experience with cops I'd suggest.

For may people, rap life is just as fake and unobtainable as things in video games - and a lot of people know this. And something like Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto are very realistic. One can imagine things like that happening in the real world - that's different than say Witcher 3 or Mass Effect.

As for white fans of rap music, a substantial amount of them are well out white folks who act like regular suburbanites. Rap is mainstream music now, after all.

But I think especially that is why the disadvantage language is so dangerous. Kids arent dumb. And when they hear that the deck is stacked against them and they cant succeed, they can begin to believe it and begin to believe that the wrong way is the only way.

They aren't dumb, so they realize the truth of the deck being stacked against them from a very young age, in school (esp if they visit a school in a more well off part of town for something), in their families dealing with law enforcement, in where they live compared to where other people in the same town live, etc. They realize something is really fucked up real quick and don't need to be explained in very much detail about it.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

They aren't dumb, so they realize the truth of the deck being stacked against them from a very young age, in school (esp if they visit a school in a more well off part of town for something), in their families dealing with law enforcement, in where they live compared to where other people in the same town live, etc. They realize something is really fucked up real quick and don't need to be explained in very much detail about it.

You can suggest it is sort of a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Is the poor attitude toward the cops the blame for violence, or is the police violence the blame for the poor attitude. Though, I don't think it is that hard to see a starting point. We can look in history and see the police violence that has been in our system since freeing the slaves.

Even the argument about single parent families is not complete. Why are there so many single moms? Does that genesis begin with mass incarcerations, removing fathers from the household, and leaving son's without male role models in the home?

I know there are smarter people on here that can do a better job with this. I just can't see any way you can lay the blame on "Black culture" and ignore the blame of systematic racism in creating much of it.

[JPhillips]

My wife grew up in Appalachia and I grew up on the edge of Appalachia. For both of us, our communities were over 90% white. There were plenty of attacks on college bound students, lots of families with bad relations with police, etc. My wife had an aunt that would warn her not to get above her raisin'.

Where you have communities that feel and maybe are isolated and homogonous, you end up with cultural aspects that discourage leaving that community or fraternizing with other communities.

[Radii]

Yeah there's really no debate at all in this chicken-or-egg thing.

Slave patrol - Wikipedia

Policing in America as we know it existed as slave patrols in the south. Once slavery was outlawed, to keep former slaves in their place: "During the post-Civil War Reconstruction period of 1865–1877, old-style patrol methods resurfaced and were enforced by postwar Southern police officers and also by organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan."

A brief google shows that modern policing in the north began as a way to control immigrant populations.

Policing, like pretty much all of the rest of America's institutions, was founded on making sure those in power stayed in power, and a big part of that is the racist policies that keep things unequal for the black population to this day, and giving us poor and middle class white folks just enough to be content to let the wealthy do whatever they want to do, since the biggest threat to the wealthy is ... well, what's trying to happen right now, secret police to protect the status quo and all.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

This is what I feel in my heart, and I acknowledge it may be wrong, needs to be the message that is getting missed.

Both of these items are true. And Both need to be heard.
1) yes there are biases and prejudices that exist that frequently make it harder for minorities in this country and those needs to be addressed, and eliminated.
2) Despite #1 it is still possible for minorities to exceed, excel and thrive. And while we agree #1 needs to be fixed it can not be used as a crutch to allow an individual to accept a fate less than their ideal. While we agree progress needs to be made, and we agree it shouldn't be harder, that cant be the excuse to give up or accept the status quo.

I think #2 is where I get frustrated with a lot of the narrative. It seems to pain a picture that its hopeless and useless to even try and succeed if you are a minority. I think that message is a slap int he face to minorities who over come the odds. It makes their accomplishments dismisive as luck or happenstance. When they should be idolized and idealized as a way.

CU, here is where most of my frustration comes in.

Both of those things ARE true, they ARE being said and they ARE being heard. I don't know what medium or platform this message needs to be placed on for people outside of the community to see it or hear it to believe that it is being said and being heard. All I can say is that it has been the message I have heard throughout the community for all of my 47 years on this earth. Of course there are other messages that are contrary to that. But I would say that those messages are in the minority by a significant amount. The frustration I have is twofold.

1. Far too often, addressing and fighting to eliminate those biases and prejudices is seen as those who engage in that fight using those biases and prejudices as a crutch. It is never the right time. It is never done in the right way. It is never done by the right people and so on and so on. John Lewis was not the right messenger in 1963. I have read what was said about him then. Yet it is possible that the speech John Lewis gave on August 28, 1963 is a speech that could be made word for word on a protest stage on July 25, 2020 with the appropriate edits of present day names and organization with the same relevance. The worst part IMO is it would probably be met with the same exact reaction that it was met with in 1963 with the appropriate edits. At SOME point, those issues have to be addressed and eliminated.

2. Far too often, minorities who do exceed, excel and thrive in the right way despite the biases and prejudices that you spoke about are still subjected to those same biases and prejudices as they would if they did it the wrong way. That is where you see the hopelessness IMO. The hope is (was?) that if I do exceed, excel, and thrive in the right way, I won't be subjected to the biases and prejudices that I would if I did things the wrong way. Unfortunately, for far too many that is not the case. There is always someone questioning whether the minorities are "allowed" to live where they live. Whether the minorities are "allowed" to work where they work and get paid appropriately for the work they do. Whether they are "allowed" to go to school where they go to school. Whether they are "allowed" to vacation where they want and even if they are "allowed" to work out where they want.

For too many minorities, the only way to be "allowed" to do those things I mentioned above is to turn away from the community that you come from after you have had your successes. I am in no way saying that you are making that suggestion. What I am saying is it is similar to the suggestion that southerners should stop saying "y'all" after they have made it. Making it should not require minorities to stop engaging with their communities and culture.

I don't think the accomplishments of minorities are devalued by the community if they are accomplished in the "right way". I think the accomplishments are considered less valuable to the community if it means turning away from said community. From what I have seen, the accomplishments of those who do it the "right way" are praised to the hilt because everyone knows all of the obstacles that were overcome to achieve that success. Achieving the moniker of "role model" is different. That is contingent on whether or not the person has maintained a relationship with that community.

[RainMaker]

Anyone can succeed. The issue is that we are a running a race and some get massive headstarts. Then we point to those who didn't and say why aren't you winning?

You either want a meritocracy or you don't.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

This is what I feel in my heart, and I acknowledge it may be wrong, needs to be the message that is getting missed.

Both of these items are true. And Both need to be heard.
1) yes there are biases and prejudices that exist that frequently make it harder for minorities in this country and those needs to be addressed, and eliminated.
2) Despite #1 it is still possible for minorities to exceed, excel and thrive. And while we agree #1 needs to be fixed it can not be used as a crutch to allow an individual to accept a fate less than their ideal. While we agree progress needs to be made, and we agree it shouldn't be harder, that cant be the excuse to give up or accept the status quo.

I agree.

I think #2 is where I get frustrated with a lot of the narrative. It seems to pain a picture that its hopeless and useless to even try and succeed if you are a minority. I think that message is a slap int he face to minorities who over come the odds. It makes their accomplishments dismissive as luck or happenstance. When they should be idolized and idealized as a way.

The world is not fair and it's never going to be. For the bell curve middle, don't measure your success against a person lucky enough to be born into money, is white vs brown/yellow/black, have natural talents far greater than yours, an IQ or EQ better than you, is more of a cut throat sales person than you ever will be, good enough to graduated from Ivy or near-Ivy etc. Doesn't matter much.

What matters is have you improved your lot in life to a point and have positioned any children for a better life. What's the measure of success? It's relative. For me, its paying my bills, owning my home, teaching my kids well, sending them off to college, saving enough for retirement where I can retire before 60 and travel some, and hopefully live long enough to see some grandkids.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Anyone can succeed. The issue is that we are a running a race and some get massive headstarts. Then we point to those who didn't and say why aren't you winning?

I'll never say why aren't you winning, I'll ask why aren't you even trying?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

I'll never say why aren't you winning, I'll ask why aren't you even trying?

I picture you saying this to the black man in the back of your police car who is being arrested for a crime that the white guy across the street gets away with, if I'm honest.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Radii

I picture you saying this to the black man in the back of your police car who is being arrested for a crime that the white guy across the street gets away with, if I'm honest.

More like asking the kids who live in a top HS district who end up in "alternative" schooling because they decided someone needed to get the shit beat out of them because they wore a blue shirt into a red neighborhood, "if I'm honest". Or the kid who is there because "school is boring and selling drugs is easy". "If I'm being honest."

[ISiddiqui]

So that's describes the massive differences in black and white poverty levels to you? Because that sounds pretty fucking racist if I'm being honest.

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[illinifan999]

Weird, I didn't mention race in any of this. Only radii and you brought it up. Every race has groups that don't get headstarts. And I'd ask all those groups why they do those same things since, and I know this must be a surprise to some people here, even white people end up in gangs and sell drugs and find themselves in "alternative" schooling. So you sound pretty fucking racist if I'm being honest.

[ISiddiqui]

This entire fucking conversation is about race?! Seriously what the fuck. Did you just wade in without reading anything and just commented for shits and giggles?

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[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This entire fucking conversation is about race?! Seriously what the fuck. Did you just wade in without reading anything and just commented for shits and giggles?

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L.O.L.

Make it about race and then call the other side racist when an opposing view is given. You stole the playbook from Salem 1690's, great job.

[ISiddiqui]

Literally just about every post since #4776 has been about race (and generally a decent discussion about the differences in success and hostility to authority). Apparently except yours responding to a post about race.

Sure.

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[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Literally just about every post since #4776 has been about race (and generally a decent discussion about the differences in success and hostility to authority). Apparently except yours responding to a post about race.

Sure.

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"Just about". So not every single one. The assumptions you make are YOUR decision.