POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

What inconveniences you enough about illegal immigration that you're willing to stomach the thought of checkpoints and camps? Is it their proclivity towards committing less crime? The taxation without representation? Our nation's lowest personal tax rates ever? Providing cheap labor for the service industries?

You asked a similar question and I answered in the other thread. Start from post #307 and read down.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Biden's Immigration Reform

Oh, before there is a cry that I'm messing up this thread, no problem in going into immigration thread if you want. Just let me know.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You've already provided a scenario where she is detained for an undetermined amount of time. That's pretty fucking bad given that she's done nothing wrong.

If you are referring to the car stopping one, watch police YT videos. It's happening now and pretty normal for citizens.

So if you want to discuss other scenarios that you think your daughter's rights will be infringed, share it.

[JPhillips]

Sometimes the police shoot innocent people, so it's no big deal if they do that to someone.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Sometimes the police shoot innocent people, so it's no big deal if they do that to someone.

Let's not deflect and go back to your original statement that I reacted to

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

Trump is now saying he'll invoke the Alien Enemies Act. The last time that was used was to intern Japanese during WW2.

Wonder if Dutch still thinks I'm overreacting to be nervous about my Chinese daughter's future.

I'll ask for a fourth time ...

But let's get back to your original worry about your legally adopted, naturalized daughter. Explain to me how she will be threatened with expulsion, imprisonment/internment etc.

[JPhillips]

I've done this several times.

She's asked for proof of citizenship.

She doesn't have it on her, she does have her license but that doesn't prove citizenship.

She's detained.

After that I don't know what might happen. There are no details other than mass detention and deportation.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I've done this several times.

She's asked for proof of citizenship.

Tell me in what situation you see where she is asked for proof of citizenship? Layout the scenario.

[JPhillips]

Could be a traffic stop could be like stop and frisk. Could be other people call her in as suspicious. Again, there are no details so we don't know what might happen.

I need her to be ready for whatever might happen.

Mass detention camps on day 1.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Could be a traffic stop could be like stop and frisk. Could be other people call her in as suspicious. Again, there are no details so we don't know what might happen.

I need her to be ready for whatever might happen.

Mass detention camps on day 1.

Okay, specific to police car stop scenario. I've provided how I think it'll be most likely played out per police YT videos I've seen. I don't see anything wrong with it as asking for identification is what's happening now to white, black, brown, yellow etc. regardless of national origin or religion etc.

For other people reporting her because she is suspicious, happens all the time right now also. Again, see police car stop, shoplifting, public nuisance etc. scenarios. Most of the time, resolved without a big deal.

I think the main difference is you don't believe police should be asking for proof of citizenship?

[JPhillips]

There's no fucking plan!

That's the problem. You assume people will have legal remedies, but Trump hasn't said that. He's just said he's going to have the power to detain and deport and he's going to open camps on day 1. Trump hasn't said anything about a legal process playing out.

And ID isn't, for most people, proof of citizenship. A regular driver's license isn't good enough. Most people don't carry proof of citizenship on them.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You asked a similar question and I answered.

You clearly did not answer the question.

EDIT: I guess you answered that it doesn't effect you in any way, but you still have strong opinions about it. That's a pretty weak answer in terms of justification for camps and checkpoints.

[dubb93]

How can you so confidently argue something that zero details have been provided. At some point you need to listen to what is being said and stop filling in the blanks.

Trumps says mass detainment and deportation he means it. Mass.

Trump says the election is stolen and his people are going to go to Congress and make that point be heard. He means it. Stop filling the blanks with how you feel. Thats how we get things like Jan. 6. Listen. Don’t talk over.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

You clearly did not answer the question.

EDIT: I guess you answered that it doesn't effect you in any way, but you still have strong opinions about it. That's a pretty weak answer in terms of justification for camps and checkpoints.

Per #317, I didn't say it "doesn't effect me in any way". I said it doesn't impact by daily life (which was your orig question) but I did answer how it did impact me indirectly (e.g. not my daily life).

So, in summary. I have answered how illegal immigration impacts me (but not on a daily basis). I have also proposed the answer for you on how illegal immigration will impact you "in any significant way" ... if pathway to citizenship is realized, the 11M will affect you as a partisan Dem or Rep in significant ways in future elections.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Well, you shouldn't be. Everything you've posted on this page is about as unAmerican as one can be.

Honestly, I've never been convinced he's not sitting offshore in some troll farm. From DAY 1 here his posts have been "asking questions" about potentially divisive issues.

And if he's not, he certainly acts like he thinks like one.

(Whatever the response, have at it. This ain't gonna change: This user is on your Ignore List.)

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And ID isn't, for most people, proof of citizenship. A regular driver's license isn't good enough. Most people don't carry proof of citizenship on them.

True. As stated, to make this work, there needs to be a citizenship database. And if we can get a gun/background check database done, we can get a citizenship database done. But it won't happen in Day 1.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

(Whatever the response, have at it. This ain't gonna change: This user is on your Ignore List.)

Ditto.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by dubb93

How can you so confidently argue something that zero details have been provided. At some point you need to listen to what is being said and stop filling in the blanks.

Trumps says mass detainment and deportation he means it. Mass.

Do you think he means for illegals or also for foreign born, naturalized citizens? Because my response was specific to JPhillips comment re: his foreign born, naturalized daughter.

Trump says the election is stolen and his people are going to go to Congress and make that point be heard. He means it. Stop filling the blanks with how you feel. Thats how we get things like Jan. 6. Listen. Don’t talk over.

No doubt he's wrong here.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Do you think he means for illegals or also for foreign born, naturalized citizens? Because my response was specific to JPhillips comment re: his foreign born, naturalized daughter.


No doubt he's wrong here.

The point was people took what he was saying and twisted it to a way that made sense to themselves when he said exactly what he was going to do. You are doing the same thing here. It doesn’t matter what I think. It only matters what he thinks and if you listen to him he will tell you what he thinks.

This is the same way we get good people, church going people who have spent their lives helping others able to justify being a Trumper. “Oh he didn’t mean that he means this…”

He means what he says. You don’t know him so stop talking for him.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by dubb93

The point was people took what he was saying and twisted it to a way that made sense to themselves when he said exactly what he was going to do. You are doing the same thing here. It doesn’t matter what I think. It only matters what he thinks and if you listen to him he will tell you what he thinks.

This is the same way we get good people, church going people who have spent their lives helping others able to justify being a Trumper. “Oh he didn’t mean that he means this…”

He means what he says. You don’t know him so stop talking for him.

Take it FWIW.

I am saying that Trump wants to get rid of illegal immigrants. He has definitely said this.

The debate is whether Trump wants to get rid of legal immigrants.

Based on some stuff he has said, he does for specific groups. Haitians have legal status, asylum seekers have legal status and cases like that. He has said this so no doubt he wants to do something here.

The real question, which is from JPhillips original comment concerning his daughter, does he need to worry about Trump doing something to legal, foreign born, naturalized citizens. I see little evidence of this. I don't think he has to worry about his daughter.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't think he has to worry about his daughter.

Serious question? Why are you so weirdly worried about his daughter. To the point you are arguing with him about what you think he heard and about what someone you don’t know meant to say.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Serious question? Why are you so weirdly worried about his daughter. To the point you are arguing with him about what you think he heard and about what someone you don’t know meant to say.

I'm not worried about his daughter's legal, naturalized status at all. All my responses were towards his original statement below because I disagreed with it. The discussion broadened even though I was trying to keep it specific to his worry for his daughter.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

Trump is now saying he'll invoke the Alien Enemies Act. The last time that was used was to intern Japanese during WW2.

Wonder if Dutch still thinks I'm overreacting to be nervous about my Chinese daughter's future.

[Lathum]

Edward would have 100% reported his neighbors in Nazi Germany then let the system work itself out while they were shipped to concentration camps.

[Flasch186]

I remember this


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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Edward would have 100% reported his neighbors in Nazi Germany then let the system work itself out while they were shipped to concentration camps.

Nope.

The only source (not meant to be convincing to you but just a data point) I can give you is I didn’t report the migrants (likely illegal) that built houses in our subdivision. On multiple occasions, I found their family sheltered in my basement while my and neighbors house was being built.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nope.

The only source (not meant to be convincing to you but just a data point) I can give you is I didn’t report the migrants (likely illegal) that built houses in our subdivision. On multiple occasions, I found their family sheltered in my basement while my and neighbors house was being built.

You blaming immigrants, who presumably were not paid well enough to afford (or be given) housing, rather than the builders who employed them is not the flex you think it is. I’m sure you got a good price on the house (certainly cheaper than if you had hired red white and blue Americans who were tragically forced out of their jobs by the illegals) and it’s cool that they can be discarded now, though.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

You blaming immigrants, who presumably were not paid well enough to afford (or be given) housing, rather than the builders who employed them is not the flex you think it is. I’m sure you got a good price on the house (certainly cheaper than if you had hired red white and blue Americans who were tragically forced out of their jobs by the illegals) and it’s cool that they can be discarded now, though.

In my personal example, I’m certainly not blaming the illegal immigrants for using my basement.

If you read my other discussions, I acknowledge we need migrant labor. I just want to use legal guest worker program (no path to citizenship). Also, in my other discussions, you’ll see that I’ve said we need to address supply and the demand side.

[Raiders Army]

I don’t know how anyone could vote for the two candidates we have. One is a felon who has ties to the Middle East through his son’s business. The other is an idiot who will say anything to get elected and is a DEI puppet.

Both are threats to democracy as far as I’m concerned. Trump speaks for himself. Harris was selected as VP based on being a woman, was the first to drop out of the primaries in 2020, and was handed the nomination by the democratic elite.

[cuervo72]

I would ask what qualifications a Black woman might need to not be an “idiot DEI hire” but I feel like anything less than minor deity might fall short…

[Ryche]

Vance is the ultimate DEI. His qualifications were being a white guy who sucked up to Trump.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I don’t know how anyone could vote for the two candidates we have. One is a felon who has ties to the Middle East through his son’s business. The other is an idiot who will say anything to get elected and is a DEI puppet.

Both are threats to democracy as far as I’m concerned. Trump speaks for himself. Harris was selected as VP based on being a woman, was the first to drop out of the primaries in 2020, and was handed the nomination by the democratic elite.

She was not the 1st to drop out in 2020. She dropped out before the primaries but 13 people actually dropped out before. That's a Trump talking point you're repeating.

And she was the Attorney General of a state larger than most countries, a 2 time Senator, and current Vice President. Trump had zero experience, Obama had less experience, Bush Jr. had less experience, Carter had less experience, and so on.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

In my personal example, I’m certainly not blaming the illegal immigrants for using my basement.

If you read my other discussions, I acknowledge we need migrant labor. I just want to use legal guest worker program (no path to citizenship). Also, in my other discussions, you’ll see that I’ve said we need to address supply and the demand side.

As long as you're willing to employ migrant workers without a clear path to citizenship you're going to have an illegal migrant problem.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Edward64

In my personal example, I’m certainly not blaming the illegal immigrants for using my basement.

If you read my other discussions, I acknowledge we need migrant labor. I just want to use legal guest worker program (no path to citizenship). Also, in my other discussions, you’ll see that I’ve said we need to address supply and the demand side.

What's wrong with a path to citizenship?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

What's wrong with a path to citizenship?

Don't we have one already called "legal immigration"?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

As long as you're willing to employ migrant workers without a clear path to citizenship you're going to have an illegal migrant problem.

I really don't know why, can you elaborate?

Come over illegally, work illegally and be taken advantage of etc. Or come through a renewable guest worker program. Neither path will provide a path to citizenship but the latter has clear benefits.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

What's wrong with a path to citizenship?

I'll refer you to Biden's Immigration Reform - Page 7 - Front Office Football Central and post #307 and down. I think #317 and #325 will answer your question from my POV.

Legislatively, I want a grand bargain on immigration reform (see same thread #82). Dems want pathway to citizenship, GOP do not. This seems to be the main sticking point. So, my happy compromise is grant legal status to illegals through renewable guest worker programs.

Question to you: Do you support citizenship for the approx 11M+ illegals? And if so, why?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I really don't know why, can you elaborate?

Come over illegally, work illegally and be taken advantage of etc. Or come through a renewable guest worker program. Neither path will provide a path to citizenship but the latter has clear benefits.

Would they pay taxes because taxation without representation is pretty unAmerican.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Would they pay taxes because taxation without representation is pretty unAmerican.

It would be similar to what Permanent Residents who do not become citizens. They work, they pay taxes, and they can collect on social security and (I believe) medicare after X years worked. But they can't vote.

So yes, it'll be "taxation without representation" but there is recent precedence. And it'll be voluntary, they can chose to apply for the guest worker program or not and accept the positives and negatives.

[dubb93]

I have never once in my life cared if anyone else had a chance to become a citizen. This is some Starship Troopers level crap here. If they live here, work here, and aren’t criminals why not just give them some way to belong. And no I’m not referring to anything. I don’t care what you think, honestly. I think you are insane.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I have never once in my life cared if anyone else had a chance to become a citizen. This is some Starship Troopers level crap here. If they live here, work here, and aren’t criminals why not just give them some way to belong. And no I’m not referring to anything. I don’t care what you think, honestly. I think you are insane.

Okay. You and I have different belief systems & POVs. We'll agree to disagree.

[cuervo72]

I’m currently reading The Known World. Much of it is set in pre-Civil War Virginia. As such, there is a lot of “show me your papers.” Basically, everywhere they go, Black folk - free or slave, because you can’t tell which is which - has sto stop for the patrollers and show their papers when encountered. Because it’s “the law”. Of course the patrollers can harass the free men any way they please, even if they have valid papers (and have stopped them any number of times over YEARS).

They can also make the papers disappear.

Good to know there are folks who are itching to go back to that.

(Well, it could be argued we never really stopped, but that’s another thread.)

[bronconick]

Don't forget the usual answer to replacing the immigrant labor has been to have 14-16 year old teenagers work full time. 1850's America was *awesome*

[JPhillips]

Today Trump said that the left is the biggest problem in America and he'll handle it with the National Guard or the military.

[cartman]

"You think of him for science and rockets, and every time a thing he's telling me about a new screw was developed, he's developed a new screw, screws are difficult, and it's made out of titanium, and it's so exciting," he continued.

Archimedes would like a word.

[GrantDawg]

How many times does Trump have to do this stuff before people get the message? Oh, that's right. They already know, they just don't care.




[JPhillips]

I never thought the leopards would eat my face.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

In my personal example, I’m certainly not blaming the illegal immigrants for using my basement.

If you read my other discussions, I acknowledge we need migrant labor. I just want to use legal guest worker program (no path to citizenship). Also, in my other discussions, you’ll see that I’ve said we need to address supply and the demand side.

It sure sounds like, when you had the opportunity to be principled and consistent and ethical about your views on the usage of illegal immigrants, you chose to do what was most beneficial to you by using a builder that skirts the rules/law so that you could get your house more cheaply. There are plenty of contractors that do not use illegal immigrants, why not put your money where your mouth is when you have the opportunity to do so?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

It sure sounds like, when you had the opportunity to be principled and consistent and ethical about your views on the usage of illegal immigrants, you chose to do what was most beneficial to you by using a builder that skirts the rules/law so that you could get your house more cheaply. There are plenty of contractors that do not use illegal immigrants, why not put your money where your mouth is when you have the opportunity to do so?

Huh, I’m not sure what you are thinking?

I bought a house under construction in a subdivision by a big home builder. I had no idea who was actually doing the hands on work at that time. I visited the house several times under construction to see how things were going.

What are you thinking I should have done? Report the illegals to the big home builder corporate office or to INS?

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I don’t know how anyone could vote for the two candidates we have. One is a felon who has ties to the Middle East through his son’s business. The other is an idiot who will say anything to get elected and is a DEI puppet.

Both are threats to democracy as far as I’m concerned. Trump speaks for himself. Harris was selected as VP based on being a woman, was the first to drop out of the primaries in 2020, and was handed the nomination by the democratic elite.

I would love to know what your achievements as an adult are compared to hers.

She was raised by a single mother, went to a HBCU (Howard) for undergrad, a decidedly not Ivy League school for her JD (Cal-Hastings), and first worked as an assistant district attorney (working with child abuse and neglect cases - not the most prestigious or desirable population to work with). From there, she was elected, which I would assume you would agree is not something that DEI can give a leg up to someone, as the San Francisco district attorney for 10-years, AG of California for six years, Senator for California for 4-years, and Vice President of the United States (on the ticket that received the most votes in US history) for the past 4 years. Now, you can argue that every VP is given an opportunity as a "diversity and equality and inclusion" selection (Pence as a religious, experienced government official; Vance as a younger, veteran, midwestern male; Walz as a midwestern, union, ex-military, etc), but I don't see how her being chosen as a black woman was any different than Obama chasing Biden as an establishment, white male, or McCain choosing Palin as a younger, female. An old, white democrat choosing a younger, black female is just another example of balancing the ticket.

I guess I am sincerely curious as to what criteria a black female could be added to a presidential ticket without you considering it a DEI puppet? Look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

What are you thinking I should have done? Report the illegals to the big home builder corporate office or to INS?

I did a quick search queue of the word "immigration" and you have made 524 posts about it, so I assume it is on your mind quite a lot: Front Office Football Central

You also have over 300 posts with the word "illegal": Front Office Football Central

When you were signing all the paperwork and making sure that all the proper permits, licenses, insurance were in place, did it cross your mind to consider whether the people building your house were doing so legally (proper labor laws followed, payroll taxes being paid by the builder)? It just seems like someone that is so interested in immigration would like to make sure that things are being done above board for, what I assume, is one of the biggest financial investments of your life? If not, that is fine, as I am sure it was financially advantageous to you to get the labor as cheaply as you possibly could - but surprising, given that you seem to have such strong feelings on the subject and would have the opportunity to actually affect change in a situation like this by demanding that your builder do things by the way that they were legally or morally intended.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I don’t know how anyone could vote for the two candidates we have. One is a felon who has ties to the Middle East through his son’s business. The other is an idiot who will say anything to get elected and is a DEI puppet.

Both are threats to democracy as far as I’m concerned. Trump speaks for himself. Harris was selected as VP based on being a woman, was the first to drop out of the primaries in 2020, and was handed the nomination by the democratic elite.

Just say the N word. That's what you really want to say.

[Ksyrup]

Apparently another potential assassination attempt thwarted in CA?