On Language and Attacks in WW (To GMs)

[Abe Sargent]

Prior to running my now completed game, a couple of people had privately pm'ed me with a growing concern about the personal nature of attacks in WW games and language. After reading their concerns, and in one case, the citations that accompanied them, I decided to institute two new rules for my game:

1). No foul language
2). No player harassing

I felt, in my game, that number 1 was relatively problem free. Its obviious when some has or has not used foul language, and therefore can be curtailed. I still think we skated a couple of times on number two, but that, over all , it was much better than other recent games.

As such, I would recommend to any future GM to apply these two rules to their game. I'd also be happy to hear from people in my game who may have thoughts on these two rules, either positive or negative.

-Anxiety

[Schmidty]

If I ever run a game again, I will definitely allow adult language, as it just didn't feel natural saying "darn" and "shoot". Of course, I'll have a warning attached to the game, so that players know that big people will be playing and using uncensored language.

I think it's great that fighting wasn't allowed, but I think it's kind of lame that people actually whined in private about language stuff. An expletive is an expletive, so I find it silly when people think "shoot" or "crap" is somehow cleaner than "shit", since in most cases their meanings are exactly the same.

Anyway, good game Anxiety.

[BrianD]

I thought the two rules worked fairly well. The language rule might have been a little bit strongly enforced since I usually had to search the offending post to find out why it had been cautioned, but that might just be a personal de-sensitivity to bad language.

Rule 2 is a bit tougher conceptually. In theory I like it, but a little bit of harassment is necessary. Players pretty much have to call other players liars and attack their words, but it can get out of hand. It is generally up to the players to keep things from escalating too far (which was done will in the recent game), but I can see a need for a GM to step in if things go too far.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

This was my first game, but I liked the clamp down on foul language. It was hard for me at times, but I thought it added class to the game. I guess I'm old-fashioned that way. Language doesn't normally bother me, but if I'm reading several posts with foul language thrown in for no reason, it does start to get to me. I guess I treat this forum like how I would behave in public. I wouldn't curse in public and it makes me uncomfortable to hear people constantly cursing.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

This was my first game, but I liked the clamp down on foul language. It was hard for me at times, but I thought it added class to the game. I guess I'm old-fashioned that way. Language doesn't normally bother me, but if I'm reading several posts with foul language thrown in for no reason, it does start to get to me. I guess I treat this forum like how I would behave in public. I wouldn't curse in public and it makes me uncomfortable to hear people constantly cursing.

I'll never understand how substituting "fartknocker" for "fuck" shows class. We should be offended by meanings behind words, not words themselves.

One other thing, I don't think of WW as "the public" - I think of it as a bunch of friends getting together to play a game. I don't think it's fun to have to be so uptight around friends.

[spleen1015]

Maybe it is just the games I have played, but I don't think there has ever been a lot of foul language in the games. A damn here and there, yes, but never several posts in a row with bad language.

It doesn't bother me one way or the other. I cuss a lot in real life, so I am used to it. I also saw the good in trying to control what I was saying during the game especially leading up to my lynch.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'll never understand how substituting "fartknocker" for "fuck" shows class. We should be offended by meanings behind words, not words themselves.

One other thing, I don't think of WW as "the public" - I think of it as a bunch of friends getting together to play a game. I don't think it's fun to have to be so uptight around friends.

But "fartknocker" makes you smile because it's funny sounding, whereas "fuck" isn't. I try to use language that I would around my grandmother. I guess it was just how I was raised.

The language issue isn't that big to me. I would prefer to not have foul language, but it won't keep me from playing in the future. Maybe a compromise? Allow it to an extent, but if it starts to get too crazy, then tell the person responsible to tone it down.

[Lorena]

The only time I curse is when I'm frustrated or upset and having to substitute damn with darn sounded very weird. I don't curse around the kids but whoa, before I had them every other word was shit, damn, or fuck. Enforcing that rule was very difficult for me because the forum is the only outlet where I can use these words freely without being censored.

The personal attacks, I understand where you're coming from Anxiety and I agree up to a point. Calling people names is uncalled for, but putting a little pressure I think is a must to get info. If I say "DaddyTorgo, I don't feel you're being straight with us" is a whole lot different than "DaddyTorgo, I think you're lying". The latter might put the person on the defense and something like that might make the person stumble a little.

[Swaggs]

I'm also not a fan of the adult language rule. I work with kids everyday, so I can certainly control myself and I can abide by it, if need be, but I don't really like feeling like I have done something terrible if I slip up or having to sub in a cheesy word if I am going for emphasis (or even just acting like I am trying to go for emphasis).

Anyway, I'm not completely opposed to it, but I'd rather not see it join the standard set of rules.

[Lathum]

I honestly don't see a need for either set of rules. Cursing to me is no big deal and if you are that sensitive that a "personal attack" from someone on an internet message board is going to effect you that poorly maybe you have some issues.

that being said the game is much more fun when everyone gets along but to me if you can't seperate what is said in the game from what is said out of the game then thats your problem.

[Alan T]

I rarely ever curse, on forums or in Real life. I guess when my daughter was born 6 years ago, I somewhat trained myself to not even really think cuss words when talking, so they didn't accidentally come out. So the rule did not really affect me much since I tend to not say anything bad anyways. I personally don't care however if others curse and it usually does not offend me or make me enjoy things any less. There are places I think that would be really tacky to curse (work emails, etc), but a game like this it doesn't really bother me one way or another.

As for the attacks and stuff.. I tend to get attacked alot by all numbers of people in games, but I don't think I ever really took any of it super personally or got my feelings hurt or such. I don't think any attacks have ever made me not enjoy the game as much. I think the closest I ever got upset at an attack was perhaps my first WW game where Neon_Chaos so blindly attacked me and was so completely and utterly wrong and ended up losing the game for our side by pushing for the deaths he did.. but even then I let it slide off my back. Often times when someone is using personal attacks at me, I might jab back in a way to say people have to resort to personal attacks when their actual arguement lacks in substance.. but I don't think they ever really bother me at all.

I've only seen a handful (maybe 5-6 times) where I thought the attacks were way out of line and really went too far.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I've only seen a handful (maybe 5-6 times) where I thought the attacks were way out of line and really went too far.

guilty

[saldana]

i dont have a problem with rule 2...i think we need to make sure the games remain civil, although it is a question of how to enforce it, or how to punish violations.

as far as rule 1, in general discussion, i have often campaigned for civility and decorum in terms of language, but only as it pertains to direct personal insults...i really dont think conversational profanity is a big deal...it would be different if there were kids playing it would be another story, but in the groups of people i hang out with IRL, profanity is never an issue, so i act the same here as i do with my real life friends.

that is not to say that something like lathums blowup at blade in the necromancer game has a place in our games...i thought that was a bit much, and told him so, but when i am asked to alter my behavior for something that can be heard on any of a half a dozen tv shows on any given night, i think that is just the opposite extreme.

[st.cronin]

I agree completely with saldana. I think one of the responsibilities a gm has is to tell players who are getting too personal or offensive in some way to basically just chill out.

[hoopsguy]

As someone who has run games where the players have gotten after each other more than should be expected, it is tough to enforce the behavior. Maybe I needed to threaten to pull the players from the game, but that is hurting their teammates (regardless of whether they are good/bad).

By and large, I think the behavior in this regard has gotten better in the last 10-20 games. Back in the 15-25 range of games the heated confrontations seemed to be popping up way too frequently, to the point where they were discouraging both veteran and new players from playing the game. I don't have the sense that this is taking place regularly these days.

[LoneStarGirl]

I dont ever plan on running a game, but I dont think either of those rules are necessary. Especially the first one. Even in the game Anxiety just threw I think I cussed about 7 or 8 times. This is an adult forum, and adults curse. Big deal. Lets not go overboard with it, but there is no reason to ban it.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I agree completely with saldana. I think one of the responsibilities a gm has is to tell players who are getting too personal or offensive in some way to basically just chill out.

"

[path12]

I'm in the camp that doesn't see a need for the rules, but I have no problem with moderating the language if that's what the GM for a particular game would prefer. I look at you guys and gals as my game group and so it doesn't bother me at all if anyone pops off with some f-bombs.

The attacks, yeah, there's a few times that it's gone overboard, but I think that generally we're pretty good at policing ourselves and calling someone out if they go too far -- but I think it's a real fine line since as we all know, sometimes you ARE lying and I want to be able to call you a liar when that happens.

Except me. I never lie.

[Barkeep49]

First let me say I see nothing wrong with a GM saying that he/she is going to have a rule about language. With the exception of one game I don't tend to swear much, if at all, though perhaps I do use damn more than I realize. I too work with kids extensively and so I'm quite used to saying shoot. However, I don't think we have many, if any, players under the age of 16 so I've got no qualms with people using adult language. Basically, I have no problems with the GM setting the tone for this sort of thing.

However, as the last few posts have gotten back to I think the bigger issue is the second rule. This has always been a problem. I agree with hoops that things are better now than they used to be, but I think we're starting to backslide. While the rule is great, as has been pointed out, it's also harder to enforce.

I will say that while I will not pro actively go out and start editing posts, unless it reaches a level of too high of concern, I will happily use my mod powers upon GM request. This is true whether it is for language, illegal PM posted, whatever. I wish we could grant each GM editing powers over his/her game, but that's just not possible.

Reading personal attacks takes the fun out of the game for me much more than does adult language, and so hopefully Anxiety has performed a public service by reminding everyone to watch how they confront other players in the game.