The Trump Presidency – 2016

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

90% of those folks will continue to chant 'LOCK HER UP!' without any clue of the context.

It may not even be hard to get them chanting "Blood and Soil" without knowing the context, but it wouldn't stop them.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Wisconsin Judge Rules Against Republicans And Restores Gov. Evers' Powers : NPR

Thanks for posting this-had not heard-good to see some sanity return in Wisconsin.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

90% of those folks will continue to chant 'LOCK HER UP!' without any clue of the context.

I say lock them both up and anyone within two rings their circles.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I say lock them both up and anyone within two rings their circles.

Honestly, despite my own severely one-sided political leanings, if you could put that on the ballot I'd vote for it in a hot second.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Are China or Russia going to go to nuclear war with us over that? Are Iran or Saudi Arabia or the average Arab/Muslim in the Middle east going to hate us more?

The pro is a stronger relationship with an ally that had admittedly been deteriorating (right or wrong, it has been going downhill).

The con is Arab/Muslims in ME and in other moderate muslim countries are going to hate us more. its also going to put additional pressure on muslim countries that are friendly to us like Jordan.

And it helps reinforce Trump's base and arguably increase his base with US Jews.

Other than for poor Jordan and like, I think I like the move.

Let's put it this way. If Trump was to strongly condemn Israel for all her real/perceived transgressions, will it move the dial in changing muslim world opinion of the US. Doubtful, and if it does, temporary at best IMO.

[Edward64]

Com'on already Mueller. Let's see it.

Yes, I know your investigation isn't longer than others but still, I'm dying to know how much you have on Trump himself (guess is not enough or no smoking gun to impeach him), and others around him (guess its plenty).

Ideal time would be Summer of next year but that's too long for me.

[GrantDawg]

This is an interesting twist: 9 Reasons a Biden-Abrams Ticket Is a Brilliant Idea for Both

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Trump: Time to recognise Golan Heights as Israeli territory - BBC News

That's not a potential step towards WW3 or anything.

Do the people of Iraq get back the land they acquired in their war with Kuwait?

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Com'on already Mueller. Let's see it.

Yes, I know your investigation isn't longer than others but still, I'm dying to know how much you have on Trump himself (guess is not enough or no smoking gun to impeach him), and others around him (guess its plenty).

Ideal time would be Summer of next year but that's too long for me.

The media has been nearly non-stop with the "fact" that the Mueller Report is coming out any day now. Until I hear it from Mueller or his spokesman, I'm just not believing that. There's too much ongoing stuff happening-Stone, Gates getting his sentencing delayed, the mystery company still fighting a grand jury appearance, Rosenstein staying longer than expected, etc to think he would be ready for a full report yet.



I think everybody is tired of all the speculation and just want to see what he's found, but how much of an incomplete report do you really want?

[molson]

Every other day there's a Trump headline to the effect of:

"This will finally be the thing that brings it all down!"

or

"Mueller smells blood!"

I'm so done with either and am just patiently ticking off the days now.

[PilotMan]

It's not even that I want it done soon, or that I want trump humbled, hobbled and humiliated (well I do, but that's not the goal here), it's that I just want he answers that we are do. We need to know the extent, methods and influence that was exerted to influence the population and the extent that a major political party worked with a foreign power to exploit that support.


The constant, bombastic headlines on every major media outlet have caused me to basically turn it off and tune it out.

[QuikSand]

WTF

John Bolton on Twitter: "Important actions today from @USTreasury; the maritime industry must do more to stop North Korea’s illicit shipping practices. Everyone should take notice and review their own activities to ensure they are not involved in North Korea’s sanctions evasion.… https://t.co/EigjioczUw"

Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "It was announced today by the U.S. Treasury that additional large scale Sanctions would be added to those already existing Sanctions on North Korea. I have today ordered the withdrawal of those additional Sanctions!"

John Harwood on Twitter: "press secretary Sanders explained to reporters: “President Trump likes Chairman Kim and he doesn’t think these sanctions will be necessary�"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/22/polit...ina/index.html

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

So how many people who say they “reluctantly” voted for Trump because they were concerned about Clinton’s email server will change their vote in 2020 based on what we are learning about how Trump’s people handle secure info? I’m guessing zero.

I'm confident that it's decidedly non-zero. How high is anyone's guess, but there's a reason why there was historically high undecideds in the runup to the '16 vote. Regardless of how dumb it may seem to others, a lot of people legit had trouble choosing between Trump and Clinton.

[QuikSand]

When he says "Mr. Moore, you know who I'm talking about" he is 100% having a moment all of us have fallen prey to, he just forgot the guy's first name. Shit happens.

The Hill on Twitter: "President Trump on Stephen Moore: "I will be nominating Mr. Moore to the Fed. You know who I'm talking about." https://t.co/3auPZGqZke… https://t.co/PilQz19b2A"

Are we going to have to hear for two weeks how he was right all along, it's our fault for not listening correctly, a la Tim Apple?

This fuckin guy.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

WTF

John Bolton on Twitter: "Important actions today from @USTreasury; the maritime industry must do more to stop North Korea’s illicit shipping practices. Everyone should take notice and review their own activities to ensure they are not involved in North Korea’s sanctions evasion.… https://t.co/EigjioczUw"

Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "It was announced today by the U.S. Treasury that additional large scale Sanctions would be added to those already existing Sanctions on North Korea. I have today ordered the withdrawal of those additional Sanctions!"

John Harwood on Twitter: "press secretary Sanders explained to reporters: “President Trump likes Chairman Kim and he doesn’t think these sanctions will be necessary�"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/22/polit...ina/index.html

And from Trump's buddy at Fox news...

No one at the @WhiteHouse seems to know what this is about. @USTreasury did not announce any new sanctions against North Korea. Sanctions announced today were regarding Iran. https://t.co/nLpBil08Bz

— John Roberts (@johnrobertsFox) March 22, 2019

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Thanks for posting this-had not heard-good to see some sanity return in Wisconsin.

Well uh

the state Supreme Court is still a 4-3 conservative majority and it's the same majority that said 'yeah the John Doe investigations found evidence of illegal shit going on with the Walker Administration but shut the investigation down and destroy the evidence.'

Which means this is gonna get appealed up the ladder and I would bet money that despite the fact that this judge is almost certainly correct and that the session was illegally called (even if the Legislature otherwise would have had the legal ability to do what they did), it's gonna get overturned.

Because the conservative wing of SCOWI consists of Republican lapdogs.

I will be delighted to be wrong.

Spoiler

I will not be wrong.

[Thomkal]

Hey Sack


Didn't I see somewhere there's an election soon for a state Supreme Court or appeals judge? And a Democrat is running for it/campaigning over this decision?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Hey Sack


Didn't I see somewhere there's an election soon for a state Supreme Court or appeals judge? And a Democrat is running for it/campaigning over this decision?

I believe it's to replace a liberal. Thankfully, the conservatives are running a legitimately batshit crazy candidate so I'm hoping the seat will be an easy hold.

[Thomkal]

ah thanks lungs

[Thomkal]

Washington Post reporter just tweeted:


BREAKING: The House Judiciary Committee is told to expect notification by 5pm that the Mueller report has been delivered to Barr

[Thomkal]

Looks like its offical-Barr has the Mueller Report

[bob]

what does a Friday afternoon drop of it mean?

[Thomkal]

DOJ tells Congress they may get to see parts of it by tomorrow

[Thomkal]

There are reports (not from a US source yet) that Assange has been arrested.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

There are reports (not from a US source yet) that Assange has been arrested.

Hearing some reports now that it was a british police operation near the embassy for an escaped burgulary suspect and the manhunt for him. Still no official word yet.

[RainMaker]

I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed by the Mueller Report. This isn't a country that holds wealthy power people to the law.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Hey Sack


Didn't I see somewhere there's an election soon for a state Supreme Court or appeals judge? And a Democrat is running for it/campaigning over this decision?

State Supreme Court. But it's to replace one of the liberal jurists, so a win maintains the status quo. Republicans will still have a lapdog majority.

[Schmidty]

I'm glad I didn't jump on the collusion bandwagon, because it appears that the Mueller Report found none. I'm sure people will just forget about it and pretend it never happened though.

By the way, this isn't an "I told you so" post, as I honestly had no idea if there really was collusion. Personally, I'm happy the president isn't a Russian agent, but I know there will be a lot of people who are not.

[Vince, Pt. II]

What was the initial goal of the Special Investigation? Wasn't it just an investigation into Russia's involvement in the election? This would obviously include collusion if it occurred, but I thought the driving motivation was simply to understand if Russia was involved, and if so how much they were involved.

It certainly feels like Trump & Co. have done a phenomenal job of twisting the narrative into "Collusion or bust," because the completion of the investigation with no additional indictments and no direct collusion arguments is being blasted by them and anyone who supports them as the investigation being a complete exoneration of them. The fact that Russia did meddle, extensively, and that several people within the "current" administration were convicted of crimes seems to be completely ignored.

I guess that is team politics in this day and age though? Team first, at all costs.

[thesloppy]

Yeah, dare I say there seems to be a little grey area in there between "I was completely exonerated from collusion!" and "my campaign manager was convicted of fraud and witness tampering, and my personal lawyer was also found guilty of fraud, lying about my ties to Russian businesses, and violating campaign finance laws at my personal behest."

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

What was the initial goal of the Special Investigation? Wasn't it just an investigation into Russia's involvement in the election? This would obviously include collusion if it occurred, but I thought the driving motivation was simply to understand if Russia was involved, and if so how much they were involved.

It certainly feels like Trump & Co. have done a phenomenal job of twisting the narrative into "Collusion or bust," because the completion of the investigation with no additional indictments and no direct collusion arguments is being blasted by them and anyone who supports them as the investigation being a complete exoneration of them. The fact that Russia did meddle, extensively, and that several people within the "current" administration were convicted of crimes seems to be completely ignored.

I guess that is team politics in this day and age though? Team first, at all costs.

The investigation ended with indictments to Trump's former campaign chair, his national security adviser, his former campaign manager, a campaign aide, a campaign adviser, Trump's personal attorney, 25 russian intelligence assets, and a handful of bit players.

The GOP spin now is that the entire investigation was a waste of money and came up empty because there are no additional indictments coming from Mueller, which ignores the fact that Mueller was working closely with the Southern District of New York and likely farmed any additional indictments out to them. It also ignores the fact that Trump's inner circle during his campaign was working closely with foreign assets and are criminals.

The fact that nearly half of our country is perfectly fine with all of this is embarrassing. This is the same group that cheered as their team led 6 investigations into Benghazi that came up empty every single time and want further investigations into the same person.

The fantasyland you have to live into believe this investigation somehow clears Trump is astounding.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm glad I didn't jump on the collusion bandwagon, because it appears that the Mueller Report found none. I'm sure people will just forget about it and pretend it never happened though.

By the way, this isn't an "I told you so" post, as I honestly had no idea if there really was collusion. Personally, I'm happy the president isn't a Russian agent, but I know there will be a lot of people who are not.

The thing is, "collusion" is a word that Trump used, but has no real meaning in the context of the investigation.

"Conspiracy," on the other hand, does.

And that's what the second stage of the investigation was about - whether there was a criminal conspiracy between Trump/members of his circle and the Russian government to sway the outcome of the election, based on Trump's repeated efforts to obstruct the initial investigation into whether or not Russia meddled in the 2016 elections.

It went from "Did the Russians interfere?" to "holy shit this guy is a nutball who's actively trying to obstruct the investigation; WHY is he trying to obstruct? We need to investigate THAT, too."

Now, whether or not Trump/his circle were involved in a criminal conspiracy with a foreign power, the existence - or lack thereof - of additional federal indictments means nothing. You know, I know, Mueller knows, and my 2 year old nephew knows, that any federal indictments against inner-circle members of Team Trump would trigger a "PARDON!" tweet from Trump.

That means, yeah, Trump Jr lied to Congress and there's probably quite a lot of there there, but Mueller declined to pursue a federal indictment. That doesn't mean state-level indictments for related offenses aren't coming, just that he knows the DOJ won't indict a sitting president and going after his family will just result in an exercise of clemency.

So you submit the report with whatever evidence you've got and let the states and Congress deal with the fallout.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm glad I didn't jump on the collusion bandwagon, because it appears that the Mueller Report found none. I'm sure people will just forget about it and pretend it never happened though.

By the way, this isn't an "I told you so" post, as I honestly had no idea if there really was collusion. Personally, I'm happy the president isn't a Russian agent, but I know there will be a lot of people who are not.

Lol

He is guilty as can be. He just surrounded himself with fall guys. Do you honestly think he’s innocent and had no knowledge of what was going on? Literally everyone in his circle has been found guilty or plead guilty to crimes.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The investigation ended with indictments to Trump's former campaign chair, his national security adviser, his former campaign manager, a campaign aide, a campaign adviser, Trump's personal attorney, 25 russian intelligence assets, and a handful of bit players.

The GOP spin now is that the entire investigation was a waste of money and came up empty because there are no additional indictments coming from Mueller, which ignores the fact that Mueller was working closely with the Southern District of New York and likely farmed any additional indictments out to them. It also ignores the fact that Trump's inner circle during his campaign was working closely with foreign assets and are criminals.

The fact that nearly half of our country is perfectly fine with all of this is embarrassing. This is the same group that cheered as their team led 6 investigations into Benghazi that came up empty every single time and want further investigations into the same person.

The fantasyland you have to live into believe this investigation somehow clears Trump is astounding.

Unfortunately, it looks as if (this Mueller) investigation does clear Trump or at least says there is not enough evidence. I'm willing to believe that Mueller was thorough and fair.

[JPhillips]

If all the indictments were dropped yesterday it would be an atom bomb, but the dilution of eighteen months of small scandals likely means Trump will skate.

And that means he has to be a pretty solid favorite in 2020.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Unfortunately, it looks as if (this Mueller) investigation does clear Trump or at least says there is not enough evidence. I'm willing to believe that Mueller was thorough and fair.

Or he knows that the DoJ will not indict a sitting president. We'll have to wait and see.

[Edward64]

That's true I guess.

But I've read re: collusion, because there are no other indictments, doesn't that mean it can't be collusion as he would need to collude with someone?

[thesloppy]

Like everybody else I'm caught up in the collective rush to know *WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN* immediately, but eventually it kinda dawns on me I'm not going to get any extra points or prizes for figuring it out early, and I might as well not get all hyped about it during the scant few days/weeks it'll take to get relatively full disclosure.

...and then I start obsessing again.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Like everybody else I'm caught up in the collective rush to know *WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN* immediately, but eventually it kinda dawns on me I'm not going to get any extra points or prizes for figuring it out early, and I might as well not get all hyped about it during the scant few days/weeks it'll take to get relatively full disclosure.

...and then I start obsessing again.

Bingo.

Go get a chocolate malt and watch the birds. That's what I do.

[thesloppy]

Easier said than done! Although a chocolate malt does sound delicious...

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I've read re: collusion, because there are no other indictments, doesn't that mean it can't be collusion as he would need to collude with someone?

That's my early read as well. If, for example, an indictment had been secured against someone like Manafort for conspiracy against the United States or somesuch - and if the evidence was there I'm sure it would have been - then you might wonder who else was involved in the conspiracy.

Originally Posted by SackAttack

You know, I know, Mueller knows, and my 2 year old nephew knows, that any federal indictments against inner-circle members of Team Trump would trigger a "PARDON!" tweet from Trump.

I don't think we know at all where that line is for sure. People thought he would fire Mueller, and that he would pardon Cohen/Manafort/etc., and he didn't. Now maybe that's just because he knew he couldn't get away with it or whatever, but if so then the point still stands.

[stevew]

Random thread broken. Quit posting links. Fake news!!!

[digamma]

Where have all of you all read the report already?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Lol

He is guilty as can be. He just surrounded himself with fall guys. Do you honestly think he’s innocent and had no knowledge of what was going on? Literally everyone in his circle has been found guilty or plead guilty to crimes.

The left won’t take any results as fact unless it supports bringing Trump down. I’m losing a lot of respect for people I’ve always considered to be extremely intelligent and level-headed, because it’s like they have lost their minds. And trust me, I’m an expert on being unhinged.

Like I’ve said, and will say just about every time I post in this thread, I’m not really a fan of Trump. All I’ve said was wait for the facts. Now they are here with no further indictments.....people still don’t want to accept them. It reminds me of conspiracy nuts throughout history.

[bob]

Saw this online. seems to make sense to me.

“Here's what I'm predicting happens:
* The report is released in full to Congress, while a (partially redacted) version is released to the media.
* Trump, his immediate family, Kushner, and Pence will not have any provable ties to Russian election interference.
* The Democrats will not start impeachment process (at least over the contents of the report alone) because they know it wouldn't be strong enough evidence on its own.
* Pro-Trumpers will claim this vindicated them because Trump wasn't charged with collusion, and the reason only Manafort and Cohen were charged because the Deep State and their Soros-backed socialist political stooges were desperate for someone to blame.
* Anti-Trumpers will claim this vindicated them because it confirmed that the Russians did meddle, and the reason only Manafort and Cohen were charged because the corporate oligarchs and their Koch-backed alt-right political stooges let them be the fall guys to protect Trump.
* Fox and MSNBC will spend hundreds of hours poring over every single out-of-context sentence fragment that will possibly justify their worldview. It will fail to convince anyone to switch their views, and only galvanize their viewers more.
* The internet will be even more of a dumpster fire than usual.
* There will be several protests that total a couple hundred thousand across major cities, but they'll fizzle out over a couple days with no organized leadership and a lack of specific goals besides a mutual disdain for Trump.
* This will have little-to-no bearing on the outcome of the 2020 Presidential election.”

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's my early read as well. If, for example, an indictment had been secured against someone like Manafort for conspiracy against the United States or somesuch - and if the evidence was there I'm sure it would have been - then you might wonder who else was involved in the conspiracy.



I don't think we know at all where that line is for sure. People thought he would fire Mueller, and that he would pardon Cohen/Manafort/etc., and he didn't. Now maybe that's just because he knew he couldn't get away with it or whatever, but if so then the point still stands.

I don't think Manafort/Cohen carry quite the same oomph as Don Jr, Ivanka, or Kushner would. That's not to say that those two aren't "his guys," but I wouldn't qualify them as "inner-circle" on the same level as the three I just mentioned, for example.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by bob

Saw this online. seems to make sense to me.

“Here's what I'm predicting happens:
* The report is released in full to Congress, while a (partially redacted) version is released to the media.
* Trump, his immediate family, Kushner, and Pence will not have any provable ties to Russian election interference.
* The Democrats will not start impeachment process (at least over the contents of the report alone) because they know it wouldn't be strong enough evidence on its own.
* Pro-Trumpers will claim this vindicated them because Trump wasn't charged with collusion, and the reason only Manafort and Cohen were charged because the Deep State and their Soros-backed socialist political stooges were desperate for someone to blame.
* Anti-Trumpers will claim this vindicated them because it confirmed that the Russians did meddle, and the reason only Manafort and Cohen were charged because the corporate oligarchs and their Koch-backed alt-right political stooges let them be the fall guys to protect Trump.
* Fox and MSNBC will spend hundreds of hours poring over every single out-of-context sentence fragment that will possibly justify their worldview. It will fail to convince anyone to switch their views, and only galvanize their viewers more.
* The internet will be even more of a dumpster fire than usual.
* There will be several protests that total a couple hundred thousand across major cities, but they'll fizzle out over a couple days with no organized leadership and a lack of specific goals besides a mutual disdain for Trump.
* This will have little-to-no bearing on the outcome of the 2020 Presidential election.”

I think you are right on. There is still a chance there is big surprise one or another in the report, but it is probably going exactly how you say.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

The left won’t take any results as fact unless it supports bringing Trump down. I’m losing a lot of respect for people I’ve always considered to be extremely intelligent and level-headed, because it’s like they have lost their minds. And trust me, I’m an expert on being unhinged.

Like I’ve said, and will say just about every time I post in this thread, I’m not really a fan of Trump. All I’ve said was wait for the facts. Now they are here with no further indictments.....people still don’t want to accept them. It reminds me of conspiracy nuts throughout history.

The fact that literally every power player in his inner circle *was* indicted, some of his closest partners explicitly for talking to Russia about interfering in the election, is just signal noise to you, and anyone who would define that as conspiracy, simply because it meets every dictionary's definition of the word, is nuts? Likewise, every post you've ever made on the subject supports Trump or his position 100%, and as such your repeated claims regarding your personal feelings about the man himself seem irrelevant and obscuring.

Schmidty, you're obviously sensitive to this stuff, and I do want to respect that, but you have previously said you genuinely weren't even aware of any of the criticism Obama took during the 8 years of his presidency, and I am curious as to where/how you are getting your news, and am left questioning the level of your information relative to the passion you're obviously putting behind it.

[Edward64]

I'm sure there are some loose ends and what-abouts but this seems pretty definitive to me. I, for one, am relieved we don't have a Manchurian candidate.

Let's get focused back on 2020.

DOJ: Trump campaign did not coordinate with Russia in 2016

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Justice Department said Sunday that special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation did not find evidence that President Donald Trump's campaign "conspired or coordinated" with Russia to influence the 2016 presidential election.

Mueller also investigated whether Trump obstructed justice but did not come to a definitive answer, Attorney General William Barr said in a letter to Congress summarizing Mueller's report.

The special counsel "does not exonerate" Trump of obstructing justice, Barr said, and his report "sets out evidence on both sides of the question."

After consulting with other Justice Department officials, Barr said he and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein determined the evidence "is not sufficient to establish that the president committed an obstruction of justice offense."

[molson]

The hype of Mueller report has consumed so much energy of the Trump opposition and it will continue to do so in the months to come as everyone will be convinced there is some silver bullet in there that will change everything, so the battle to reveal it will rage on. Just like with the tax returns.