PureSim Baseball Joining the Free to Play Trend

Shaun Sullivan · 08-20-2011, 03:33 PM

Note to FOFC'ers I am transitioning to a Free to play model for PureSim. The next update will be the full version of the game and 100% free. Stay tuned for release.

Here is more info that I just posted on the PureSim Message Board:

Okay, now that we are almost 6 months since release, I think what I am going to do with PureSim is follow in the footsteps of many recent game companies, and change to a "Free-To-Play" model. I have been heading in this direction for a while, as evidenced by the major price reductions we have done.

My goal will be to grow the community as large as possible and figure out ways to monetize later. (Ads, Premium Expansion Packs etc..)

It will also let Steve and I continue to simply add new features/tweaks year round, as we see, fit without having to go dark and do a big-bang PS5 release. This will avoid the problem of development "stalling." We both just LOVE to add stuff on the fly, so this will make that easy and is likely best for PureSim moving forward. I'll simply treat it like online games are treated and just continue to periodically add incremental new stuff and fixes, without doing annual new versions.

PS4 was the 3rd best selling version in the game's history and certainly the best selling version since I arrived at Wolverine. That said, the genre is a little depressed, so the time is here to try and follow some of the creative thinking going on in the industry.

Free to play here we come!

I'd like to thank all that have supported the game for so many years (with your hard earned cash!)

What do you guys think?

DaddyTorgo · 08-20-2011, 03:45 PM

Cool - sounds good from my point of view. Happy I bought a couple versions in the past still though.

Hopefully you can figure out a good way to monetize it appropriately.

PilotMan · 08-20-2011, 05:17 PM

Pay or no pay Shaun, I'll still support you 100%. I completely admire the effort that you have put forward, and wish you the best with this new model.

PS is an awesome game, but many new customers are still going to equate quality and price, and overcoming that psychological barrier has to be important.

Seriously, it's great to hear that your excitement is still strong for your product, and I look forward to following it's development.

dubb93 · 08-20-2011, 05:18 PM

So it is going to be the current full retail version for free? If so that is awesome.

Mota · 08-20-2011, 06:31 PM

I'd say that unless you're attached to a major social hub of some sort, that free-to-play is probably not the best business model for PS5. As you said it's a niche market, so unless it's on iPad or Facebook or something, not many people are going to know about it.

DaddyTorgo · 08-20-2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mota

I'd say that unless you're attached to a major social hub of some sort, that free-to-play is probably not the best business model for PS5. As you said it's a niche market, so unless it's on iPad or Facebook or something, not many people are going to know about it.

This is actually a good point - not necessarily that it wouldn't work, but that you're going to need to be more aggressive in getting the word out there about it on facebook, twitter, etc.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-20-2011, 06:51 PM

I think that, as negative as it kind of sounds, I believe Mota is probably right.

The most successful free-to-play / microtransaction models (Zynga et al) are spending a great deal of money to acquire their paying users. Unless you've got a small truckload of cash that you're willing to invest up front (and for all I know you're fine with that) then it's going to be an uphill battle to get enough momentum going to really make any significant headway financially. And that's with access to a massive user base, absent that then the challenge fairly boggles my mind.

And that's before you consider the recent surge in user acquisition costs that I've been reading about.

I wish you well with it, I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I had serious concerns.

Shaun Sullivan · 08-20-2011, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think that, as negative as it kind of sounds, I believe Mota is probably right.

The most successful free-to-play / microtransaction models (Zynga et al) are spending a great deal of money to acquire their paying users. Unless you've got a small truckload of cash that you're willing to invest up front (and for all I know you're fine with that) then it's going to be an uphill battle to get enough momentum going to really make any significant headway financially. And that's with access to a massive user base, absent that then the challenge fairly boggles my mind.

And that's before you consider the recent surge in user acquisition costs that I've been reading about.

I wish you well with it, I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I had serious concerns.

I understand what you are saying, but I see it as a way to disrupt the dying genre in which PureSim lives. PureSim is not in competition with Farmville and the FaceBook game segment (though Facebook is something I am looking at).

I want to be the free option among the existing Baseball games in this genre. I am going to have to build online and social aspects into the game as we go along, but at least the barrier to entry for new players will be $0. This will initially be the full PureSim 4 experience for free, and then we can add stuff perpetually, just as is done on the online/MMO space.

It'll be a fun experiment, and I like trying new stuff

Shaun Sullivan · 08-20-2011, 07:05 PM

Please start the Free to Play Baseball sim revolution by following me on Twitter, as long as you can tolerate the noise I post about my company Electric Plum, LLC., which is not a game studio

@LiquidSullivan

Shaun Sullivan · 08-20-2011, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

So it is going to be the current full retail version for free? If so that is awesome.

Yep, 100%

MrBug708 · 08-20-2011, 07:20 PM

Where can we find puresim 5?

Shaun Sullivan · 08-20-2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Where can we find puresim 5?

PureSim 4 - Free will be released this week, I just have a little more work to do. Probably mid to late this week.

MrBug708 · 08-20-2011, 07:27 PM

Gotcha

MJ4H · 08-20-2011, 07:34 PM

YOU JERKS TALK HIM OUT OF THIS YOU'LL BE ANSWERING TO ME

Young Drachma · 08-20-2011, 07:39 PM

I was going to say this, then decided not to, then everyone else chimed in. I don't think you're going to divert people who would prefer to play Mogul or OOTP to PureSim by making it free. There are generally good reasons for those folks to persist with those games despite their flaws.

I think the closer you get to integrate online/web-based features into Puresim and making them an integral part of the PS experience is when you're able to translate it from being the 3rd wheel to a killer app.

But best of luck no matter what.

Shaun Sullivan · 08-20-2011, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I was going to say this, then decided not to, then everyone else chimed in. I don't think you're going to divert people who would prefer to play Mogul or OOTP to PureSim by making it free.

I totally agree, though many of them may try the game, where they would not have in the past.

In addition, I hope to get wide distribution given the free nature, so hopefully at the confluence of free, social and new ideas we'll strike on something cool.

Part of why I love doing PureSim is the fact that I can try all kinds of creative ideas, both business-model wise and in the game. It doesn't pay the bills so I can have fun with it. Not to say I would not be thrilled if it did pay the bills

EagleFan · 08-20-2011, 08:00 PM

Make it a Droid app and I would absolutely love it.

MizzouRah · 08-20-2011, 10:02 PM

Ever think about a football or hockey sim?

I'm not really sure how a free game is going to work, but I'm sure you know what you're doing more so than how confused I am about this.

rjolley · 08-20-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Make it a Droid app and I would absolutely love it.

Agreed.

SnowMan · 08-21-2011, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjolley

Agreed.

+1

Mota · 08-21-2011, 11:35 AM

I've always supported your product Shaun and will continue to do so. Hopefully I didn't seem negative on my first post. I enjoy Puresim and play it regularly.

I don't think that this thread is the ultimate guide for your future strategy, but I haven't really seen that many people say "I'd play your game if I didn't have to pay for it", but I do see a lot of posts saying "I'd buy your game if it was out for iPad, or Android, or whatever".

So if your strategy is to give the game for free as you work on the next advancement to break out of the dying genre, then it may be a successful strategy.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-21-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mota

... I haven't really seen that many people say "I'd play your game if I didn't have to pay for it",

Then again, how many people would come out & say that to an individual dev, even if they're thinking it?

I might say "hell would freeze over before I'll pay for your stuff" on the Zynga support forum but I'm not sure I'd say it to Shaun (unless he was really pushing my buttons) ... and I'm not exactly known for being bashful

MJ4H · 08-21-2011, 12:02 PM

I'd play your game if I didn't have to pay for it.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-21-2011, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

I'd play your game if I didn't have to pay for it.

Low. Hanging. Fruit.

MJ4H · 08-21-2011, 12:06 PM

Just being honest here

Philliesfan980 · 08-21-2011, 12:35 PM

If this game was web based, with integrated multiplayer mode, I'd be in.

For example, I like games like OOTP, Puresim, etc. My friends are huge sports nuts, but whenever I show them OOTP, they kind of roll their eyes and say "Eh, looks like a lot of work". Something that was totally on the web would go a long way with casual PC users IMO.

DaddyTorgo · 08-21-2011, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

If this game was web based, with integrated multiplayer mode, I'd be in.

For example, I like games like OOTP, Puresim, etc. My friends are huge sports nuts, but whenever I show them OOTP, they kind of roll their eyes and say "Eh, looks like a lot of work". Something that was totally on the web would go a long way with casual PC users IMO.

That'd be awesome with Puresim's excellent historical mode too. Think about it - get a bunch of baseball-buddies together to recreate baseball history...maybe make it so that leagues could advance in chunks of time (week at a time say)...I'd totally pay to takeover a team starting in say 1900 and play into the future with a group of 15 guys, or even 30 guys (yes yes I know...expansion...that'd have to be figured out).

Shaun Sullivan · 08-21-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mota

So if your strategy is to give the game for free as you work on the next advancement to break out of the dying genre, then it may be a successful strategy.

That is precisely the thinking that led to me trying this strategy! If I can broaden the awareness via going free to play, I feel I'll have a good platform to introduce future products, should they come to fruition.

This is going to be an interesting ride.

The startup I am doing right now is 100% mobile focused (albeit not a game dev company). I have lots of experience with cross platform mobile technology, so that is an area I will likely explore.

I was looking to iOOTP as a bellwether for determining if there is a market for our genre in mobile. I can't really tell if iOOTP has been a hit or not though. I'm wondering if anybody has an informed opinion on that?

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding · 08-23-2011, 04:46 AM

Looks like he changed his mind.

http://www.wolverinestudios.com/foru...ad.php?t=14888

After posting my new strategy idea, I was somewhat surprised at the community's reaction, both publicly and privately. Besides my dog and I (my dog always agrees with me when I run stuff by him, especially if I have cheese) the idea of going free to play has been universally panned.

A lot of folks have made really good points. Maybe I just need to relax and accept that there is no magical business model, especially in this niche genre.

We have a good thing going with PS4, which IMO was the best release in the game's history. Steve and I work great together, and there is a great community here that supports the process.

So, I have decided to kill the free to play idea and simply move forward, business as usual.

Thanks for all the feedback, I do listen.

Shaun

Philliesfan980 · 08-23-2011, 05:55 AM

Shaun changing his mind? Nah, that never happens!

Just kidding Shaun (I know I gave you a hard time before by being so wishy washy) - best of luck.

MJ4H · 08-23-2011, 09:56 AM

i will find out where you people live

Marmel · 08-23-2011, 10:12 AM

You dicks!

Shaun Sullivan · 08-23-2011, 11:32 AM

Yea, I was surprised. The core community was very against the idea, and it was causing a lot of confusion.

I guess it has to do with fear of the unknown, or change, or maybe an implication that free to play would mean less attention from the developer.

I also realized that it was going to put some heat on the game's publisher (Wolverine) so in the end, I have decided to not pursue free to play on PureSim. Sometimes you just have to listen to the community I guess.

That said, I am going to explore this model in futre non-Puresim projects for sure. I think it could have merit, maybe even more so in another type of offering that is not in the text-sim sports genre.

PureSim is $14.95, so it is pretty close to free to play anyways

The model that would best suit my development style would probably be subscription, since I like to perpetually update the game. Free to play was going to at least open the door to that update/release strategy.

Interesting times.

DaddyTorgo · 08-23-2011, 11:40 AM

Hey - at least you listened and thought things through. That can't be a bad thing I suppose, right?

Also must be nice that people were concerned and raised questions about how doing so would affect you financially, right? I mean...nice that your customers are looking out for you in a sense, instead of just looking to push you to do something so they can get something for nothing.

Shaun Sullivan · 08-23-2011, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Hey - at least you listened and thought things through. That can't be a bad thing I suppose, right?

Also must be nice that people were concerned and raised questions about how doing so would affect you financially, right? I mean...nice that your customers are looking out for you in a sense, instead of just looking to push you to do something so they can get something for nothing.

Yes, that is very nice. The community is small, but very loyal.

08-20-2011, 05:17 PM	#3
PilotMan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Seven miles up	Pay or no pay Shaun, I'll still support you 100%. I completely admire the effort that you have put forward, and wish you the best with this new model. PS is an awesome game, but many new customers are still going to equate quality and price, and overcoming that psychological barrier has to be important. Seriously, it's great to hear that your excitement is still strong for your product, and I look forward to following it's development. __________________ He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops. Like Steam? Join the FOFC Steam group here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/FOFConSteam

08-20-2011, 06:51 PM	#7
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	I think that, as negative as it kind of sounds, I believe Mota is probably right. The most successful free-to-play / microtransaction models (Zynga et al) are spending a great deal of money to acquire their paying users. Unless you've got a small truckload of cash that you're willing to invest up front (and for all I know you're fine with that) then it's going to be an uphill battle to get enough momentum going to really make any significant headway financially. And that's with access to a massive user base, absent that then the challenge fairly boggles my mind. And that's before you consider the recent surge in user acquisition costs that I've been reading about. I wish you well with it, I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I had serious concerns. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

08-20-2011, 07:05 PM	#9
Shaun Sullivan PureSim Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mount Pleasant, SC	Please start the Free to Play Baseball sim revolution by following me on Twitter, as long as you can tolerate the noise I post about my company Electric Plum, LLC., which is not a game studio @LiquidSullivan Last edited by Shaun Sullivan : 08-20-2011 at 07:05 PM.

08-20-2011, 07:39 PM	#15
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	I was going to say this, then decided not to, then everyone else chimed in. I don't think you're going to divert people who would prefer to play Mogul or OOTP to PureSim by making it free. There are generally good reasons for those folks to persist with those games despite their flaws. I think the closer you get to integrate online/web-based features into Puresim and making them an integral part of the PS experience is when you're able to translate it from being the 3rd wheel to a killer app. But best of luck no matter what. __________________ Current dynasty: OOTP25 Blitz: RTS meets Moneyball \| OOTP Mod: GM Excel Competitive Balance Tax/Revenue Sharing Calc \| FBCB Mods on Github

08-20-2011, 08:00 PM	#17
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	Make it a Droid app and I would absolutely love it. __________________ The EagleFan YouTube Channel - Reactions Soarin' & Scratchin' YouTube Channel - We react to music, videos, TV, we talk, we are planning some field trips Soarin' & Soothin' - Meditation, Relaxation, and Sleep Aid; mental health is important

08-20-2011, 03:45 PM	#2
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	Cool - sounds good from my point of view. Happy I bought a couple versions in the past still though. Hopefully you can figure out a good way to monetize it appropriately.

08-20-2011, 06:31 PM	#5
Mota College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2001	I'd say that unless you're attached to a major social hub of some sort, that free-to-play is probably not the best business model for PS5. As you said it's a niche market, so unless it's on iPad or Facebook or something, not many people are going to know about it.

08-20-2011, 07:20 PM	#11
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Where can we find puresim 5?

08-20-2011, 07:27 PM	#13
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Gotcha

08-20-2011, 07:34 PM	#14
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	YOU JERKS TALK HIM OUT OF THIS YOU'LL BE ANSWERING TO ME

08-20-2011, 10:02 PM	#18
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	Ever think about a football or hockey sim? I'm not really sure how a free game is going to work, but I'm sure you know what you're doing more so than how confused I am about this.

08-21-2011, 11:35 AM	#21
Mota College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2001	I've always supported your product Shaun and will continue to do so. Hopefully I didn't seem negative on my first post. I enjoy Puresim and play it regularly. I don't think that this thread is the ultimate guide for your future strategy, but I haven't really seen that many people say "I'd play your game if I didn't have to pay for it", but I do see a lot of posts saying "I'd buy your game if it was out for iPad, or Android, or whatever". So if your strategy is to give the game for free as you work on the next advancement to break out of the dying genre, then it may be a successful strategy.

08-21-2011, 12:02 PM	#23
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	I'd play your game if I didn't have to pay for it.

08-21-2011, 12:06 PM	#25
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	Just being honest here

08-21-2011, 12:35 PM	#26
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	If this game was web based, with integrated multiplayer mode, I'd be in. For example, I like games like OOTP, Puresim, etc. My friends are huge sports nuts, but whenever I show them OOTP, they kind of roll their eyes and say "Eh, looks like a lot of work". Something that was totally on the web would go a long way with casual PC users IMO. Last edited by Philliesfan980 : 08-21-2011 at 12:36 PM.

08-23-2011, 04:46 AM	#29
LastWhiteSoxFanStanding College Starter Join Date: Jun 2003	Looks like he changed his mind. http://www.wolverinestudios.com/foru...ad.php?t=14888 After posting my new strategy idea, I was somewhat surprised at the community's reaction, both publicly and privately. Besides my dog and I (my dog always agrees with me when I run stuff by him, especially if I have cheese) the idea of going free to play has been universally panned. A lot of folks have made really good points. Maybe I just need to relax and accept that there is no magical business model, especially in this niche genre. We have a good thing going with PS4, which IMO was the best release in the game's history. Steve and I work great together, and there is a great community here that supports the process. So, I have decided to kill the free to play idea and simply move forward, business as usual. Thanks for all the feedback, I do listen. Shaun

08-23-2011, 05:55 AM	#30
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	Shaun changing his mind? Nah, that never happens! Just kidding Shaun (I know I gave you a hard time before by being so wishy washy) - best of luck.

08-23-2011, 09:56 AM	#31
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	i will find out where you people live

08-23-2011, 10:12 AM	#32
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	You dicks! __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

08-23-2011, 11:32 AM	#33
Shaun Sullivan PureSim Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mount Pleasant, SC	Yea, I was surprised. The core community was very against the idea, and it was causing a lot of confusion. I guess it has to do with fear of the unknown, or change, or maybe an implication that free to play would mean less attention from the developer. I also realized that it was going to put some heat on the game's publisher (Wolverine) so in the end, I have decided to not pursue free to play on PureSim. Sometimes you just have to listen to the community I guess. That said, I am going to explore this model in futre non-Puresim projects for sure. I think it could have merit, maybe even more so in another type of offering that is not in the text-sim sports genre. PureSim is $14.95, so it is pretty close to free to play anyways The model that would best suit my development style would probably be subscription, since I like to perpetually update the game. Free to play was going to at least open the door to that update/release strategy. Interesting times.

08-23-2011, 11:40 AM	#34
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	Hey - at least you listened and thought things through. That can't be a bad thing I suppose, right? Also must be nice that people were concerned and raised questions about how doing so would affect you financially, right? I mean...nice that your customers are looking out for you in a sense, instead of just looking to push you to do something so they can get something for nothing. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 08-23-2011 at 11:41 AM.

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