QB Rushing

[QuikSand]

So, I'm enamored of the FOF 8 system to really plant in stuff you want from your offense, and I'm kicking the tires a bit more with a QB-as-ball-carrier setup. Have played a couple seasons based on default NFL rosters, and have gotten decent seasons out of Kaep/49ers, RG3/Browns, and a few blur guys from game-created drafts.

I have not been trying to just pile up rushing yards at all costs, I'm trying to use it to augment a real offense - especially an offense where we need that element to be effective (weak straight-ahead running game, or weak downfield passing).

Anyhow... I have so far landed guys into the 800-1000 yards range with some regularity, but haven't put up anything eye-popping. Post a screenshot if you have something to share... or share a strategy that has worked for you, if you've been fiddling with this, too.

[QuikSand]

Here's a snapshot of the bars from RG3, in a team I just took over. We don't have a ton to work with on that offense, so I deliberately decided I'd build the offense around him and give him a chance to be the man.

http://imgur.com/a/48zNv

A pretty effective passing season, lots of short stuff.

Rushing the ball, he gave us 224-960, 4.29 ypc, but only 2TD. I don't think I planted any QB runs in the red zone offense (pretty obvious). Since this was on a pretty bad team (I gutted a lot of the roster), I'm not thrilled with the ypc - which I think ought to be better (but he was better than any of our running backs).

[QuikSand]

...and by the way, a 4.61 dash for a veteran QB is pretty strong. This has been discussed elsewhere, but the combine results for rookies are clearly generated by a completely different schema than those for veterans. I have drafted freak QBs with a rookie dash under 4.4, only to see them all settle in at 4.55+ the subsequent year. Just an observation, not intended to be a criticism.

[QuikSand]

Since I have him lying around, I ran a test season (injuries off) with a terrible (14/23 overall) but terribly fast (4.35 dash and 92 Scr Frq) quarterback, just to see how well he might do.

Posted 269-1152 on 4.28 ypc and 4 TD. Passing, we were last in the league in passing...only 2817 yards on 6.64 ypa. So, we went 3-13. No reason to think this setup is a net positive, even with a blur like that guy at QB.

[QuikSand]

I pulled a couple QB runs out of the gameplan (the one used for both seasons above) and got RG3 (with injures back on, set to 75) another adequate but unspectacular season at the helm:

Rushing: 217-901, 4.15 ypc, 5 TD
Passing: 3,230 yds, 6.55 ypa, 18/10, 86.2 rating
Team: 7-9 record, 28th total off, 7th total def

I feel like the sweet spot for an actual "asset" running the ball in an effective offense might be something like 8-60 per game.

I think I will seek a legitimate WR target for this team... here, C Coleman is mediocre, and I traded away the rest of our legit assets. If we add a legit WR1 (and avoid tragic OL injuries) I could see this team keeping the ball moving much better. I'd like to see around 1/4 of our rushes be from our mobile QB.

[Hammer]

It seems to me called QB runs are down on where you would think they should be at.

The spy option is something I haven't looked at. Perhaps it is squashing scrambling averages also. Doesn't look like a running QB is the weapon he might of been. With such poor averages it isn't going to strike fear into the heart of defenses.

If a 4.35 Vick clone can't get it done who can?

[johnnyshaka]

What kind of fumble numbers are you seeing?

[QuikSand]

RG3 has fumbled 5,7,9,5 in four seasons with the Browns (the last two under my watch, with extra rushing). The speedy guy fumbled about 15 times - but did have a void in sense rush, IIRC.

By the way, the speedy 4.35 QB reverted to form the following season and ran a 4.54 the next season. These annual combines are just going to be noisy.

[Dawgfan19]

I experimented with Cam Newton when the game was initially released. With a rexed GP, he would typically have a 7-plus average per attempt. That seemed inline with FOF 7 results. By forcing QB runs, I could easily get 1,000 yards, but at the expensive of production as Newton's average/attempt would drop to the 4.50 range.

I'll try to post later as a MP league has converted where my QB has a 82 scramble bar. In 7 seasons, his rush average is 7.18.

[QuikSand]

I feel like the thing that's missing (not a tragedy) is basically a setting, either global or by play, amounting to "green light to scramble from a designed pass play."

In theory, this could be a global gameplan setting, alongside the stuff like the weighting of players' exact position designations.

Or, it could be a value attached to each play, I suppose. That might be tedious.

As it stands, basically this seems to be a function of the "scramble frequency" rating. So, you don't control it, other than by what sort of player you put into the starting role.

Having that sort of control might open the game up for abuse, but that seems to be what I'm intuitively missing as I fiddle with this. I'm basically just adding in some designed QB "draws" and the like... rather than true scrambles.

[Ben E Lou]

CCFL has a guy with a good shot at 900 yards, outside chance at 1,000:

QB Jose Henderson Player Details

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

RG3 has fumbled 5,7,9,5 in four seasons with the Browns (the last two under my watch, with extra rushing). The speedy guy fumbled about 15 times - but did have a void in sense rush, IIRC.

By the way, the speedy 4.35 QB reverted to form the following season and ran a 4.54 the next season. These annual combines are just going to be noisy.

Fumbles don't seem any higher than they normally would be for a QB who runs that much. Nice.

How about injuries or did you disable that?

[QuikSand]

Sample size too small... RG3 played those 4 seasons in a normal setting with injuries at 75m, and played in 64 games even while rushing a great deal. But I don't want to run with that and say we know something.

[QuikSand]

Not worthy of an actual dynasty thread, but RG3 under two more seasons:

In the latest season, I pulled out a couple designed QB runs on 1st-and-10, thinking I'd meaningfully drop his carries... but he still had about 12 a game. The team was substantially better, though - I don't draw a real connection. He's finishing his 10th season, and is not an especially good player at this point... but I failed to trade up to get the super-quick rookie in the draft, and missed out on him. I will be scanning for a perfect-fit guy to try his hand with this setup.

[sawblade300]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

CCFL has a guy with a good shot at 900 yards, outside chance at 1,000:

QB Jose Henderson Player Details

This guy ended up over 900 yards, seven TD's and offensive player of the year. FWIW

[QuikSand]

I checked out a game log for that guy - most of his runs are labeled as "scrambles" in the game log (only 2 exceptions out of 17-18 runs that I checked). Lots of runs are coming from obvious passing situations - but I don't know whether those are designed pass plays where he gets happy feet, or a certain class of play where he's assigned to take off.

Interesting that (in the one game I checked) the QB ran on the first earned 1st-and-10 situation, so it's high in the script there, at least.

[QuikSand]

Not a perfect fit, but I'mma tinker with the gameplan a while, and will at least run a test season with him as well as old man Griffin.

Will hope that his play is reminiscent of a near-namesake:

[digamma]

Nice pull there.

[QuikSand]

In a test, zero-injury season, Rookie QB Hollowell (in a playbook seeded with extra QB runs, but the AI calling the weekly gameplan) posted a pretty nice season, leading us to at 11-5 bye week:

Passing 3,886 yds, 8.41ypa, 29/13, 99.7
Rushing 151-810, 5.36ypc, 4TD, 8fum

Team was #2 in total yards gained, #6 in ypc, #1 in ypa

Not bad. JH is only rated 16/43 at season's end, but that scramble frequency is at 93.

[QuikSand]

...comparable setup (injuries off) from Griffin:

Team 10-6 division winner
Passing: 4,470 yds, 8.39 ypa, 27/16, 97.7
Rushing: 89-581, 6.53 ypc, 4TD, 8 fum
Team #1 total yardage, #1 ypc, #1 ypa

Not a lot separating them. Actually fewer turnovers with the rookie in.

[QuikSand]

I'mma set this here for right now...

[Mobarak]

Does the scramble rating only apply to broke down passing plays where he takes off?.. or does it also apply a modifier for designed QB runs?

Also would having really good receivers with high RR negate his scramble rating by constantly being open or is the QB destined to scramble on X pass plays regardless of a receiver being open?

[QuikSand]

My weak answers...

-not sure, but my guess is it's just for true "scrambles"
-not sure, but i like your theory there

[Mobarak]

you could solve that by moving your highest RR receivers to outlets on plays you want to give the best chance to scramble.. its probably the only way really.

I can see how this is an interesting offensive path but how do you get around someone throwing in a few more buzz/spy options in the game plan.. if you are feeding the Qb runs I mean?

[QuikSand]

My bottom line with my fiddling thus far is that while this version of the game is the first to allow "designed QB runs" in the gameplan, and that opens up the potential for a lot more carries than ever before -- there still isn't enough control to really "build around a scrambling quarterback" in the purest break-the-game sense.

[QuikSand]

So, here's my typical season now. The OL is pretty good, and the RB corps is a bunch of hoboes - but I'm generating pretty good rushing stats overall. QB Holloway is still very prone to taking off, and I have seeded in some opportunistic called QB runs for him, and this is a pretty representative season for him - average game something like 7-40 rushing. On this team, I judge that there's a modest net positive from his rushing skills, but it might be offset by any injury risk (as I'm thin behind him).

I do not consider this to be an optimized offense, but it has been somewhat fun building a team with the assumption that I'm dedicated to a run-the-QB style of play. This year we were a hard luck 7 seed, but overall the team has gotten pretty decent.

[QuikSand]

One more thought here. About the ability to "spy" on a rushing QB. Great addition to the gameplanning side of the game.

Now...with a gameplan like the one I've been fiddling with here, I'm basically okay if my QB rushes for something like the season above - he gets about 700 yards on close to 6 yards a carry. That's a few designed runs, a fair number of true scrambles, and not many goal line carries -- bottom line is those plays are really no re-defining our offense, right? He's just another ball carrier, mostly.

Now... what I really need for this to make sense is for the opponents to start spying on him. I need my mobile QB as a threat to change the defenses we face, and pull a LB or safety out of coverage (in real football terms), or to adjust the effectiveness of the coverage cloud and/or in-the-box run defense (in computer game terms). That is how a threat like this could change the real football game meaningfully, I think.

What I want is a Tyrod Taylor offense here. He's not a gifted passer, by anyone's estimation, but his mobility can help keep pass rushers in place a bit, can pull a linebacker away from a deep zone to stay on spy duty, and can soften up the interior run defense a bit for fear of a bootleg. And as a result, Taylor's passing stats are probably a bit better than they would have been, were it not for his speed.

So...do we get that in FOF? I don't know, I could look through gamelogs in my single player career. Maybe the AI teams are adjusting like this, and that's why my 29/29 quarterback is putting up fairly effective passing stats, and maybe it's connected to my mediocre running backs doing well, too.

But, who cares?

I'm really not in this to beat the AI. I want to beat YOU, the guy in my MP league.

And...there's the rub. If forcing-a-spy is a centerpiece of this approach on offense, what am I going to get here in multi-player? I have no idea what the proportion actually is, but it will only work against someone who is seriously gameplanning for each opponent. Not sure if that's going to be 1 out of 16 rivals, or more than that... but it's really hard to imagine it's ever going to be everyone, or even close to it.

So, there's the rub. Maybe this approach can "work" if every lever the game affords us (and itself) is fully implemented. But in the setting I care most about, I don't know that I can count on it. And if the opponent isn't spying and altering the defense, maybe the incrementally better results from QB rushing will be offset by no residual bump in everything else.

No way to measure this, obviously, but I'm starting to feel this way about the + and - parts of this game globally, and this thread seems like a place to launch it.

[Hammer]

I am seeing some crazy scrambling figures out of Air Coryell. Could be a sample size thing, its 1200 yards at over 8 ypc. Estimated 150 yards are on designed runs, but still very high figures. I wonder if more deep routes are making the QB run more. Or maybe even an Air Coryell bonus. It does say in the help file a running QB is more careful with his throws, if in doubt scramble.

[QuikSand]

Wow, intriguing. So, you're deliberately passing downfield a lot, have a QB with very high Scr Frq, presumably a guy with some latent running skills... and he's an impact rusher?

[Hammer]

Yes exactly. 4.46 40, 87 scramble frequency. It is just one season, so I am not sure if there is much in it. I view games in detail, and it does seem he is bailing on the deep ball and running quite often. I never intended it that way. I kept increasing deep balls as he wasn't attempting them, just seemed to lead to him running more. Whether this is a story of a season, an aspect of going deep with a runner or an Air Coryell thing I don't know at this point. I was looking to ditch the AC OC as quickly as possible, but now I will see if it has anything to do with this strong running performance.

[johnnyshaka]

Fumbles?

QBs seem to fumble more often (probably moreso because of sacks) so I'm curious to see if more running equates to more fumbles and if so is something like this really worth it?

[Hammer]

Fumbles are way more common on sacks. When it comes to QB rushing whether they are an issue seems to be very much according to the QB concerned, and his avoid fumbles bar. The higher rated QBs tend to have higher avoid fumble bars.

From my experience designed QB runs have very limited value. You might get some joy with an end run in a 005 type formation on 3rd and long as standard 3 deep defenses are weak to the outside run - but honestly I am not seeing the sort of success I hoped for in this version. Not sure if it is any better than a 104 HB outside run. In general, any "smart calls" are really not having much impact. All seems very roster related.

Scrambles on the other hand seem worth promoting, in general. If that is possible.

[Ushikawa]

i agree that the designed QB runs are lackluster while scrambles are great.

regarding generating scrambles, in 7 you could pump them up by keeping more guys in pass pro, reckon the same as well as perhaps not designating a secondary receiver could do the same in 8.

[Ushikawa]

Also QBs def fumble a lot more than RBs.

[Ben E Lou]

Just had a new (not rookie) QB with 102 rushes and 6.23 ypc. Roughly 48 of those were called runs. I set up the game plan where he'd get 3 and only 3 called runs per game; it's possible some of them were cancelled due to penalties, of course. We'll see if it's a one-season anomaly or if I'm on to something here. (Did some things differently.)

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

So, there's the rub. Maybe this approach can "work" if every lever the game affords us (and itself) is fully implemented. But in the setting I care most about, I don't know that I can count on it. And if the opponent isn't spying and altering the defense, maybe the incrementally better results from QB rushing will be offset by no residual bump in everything else.

I have been rexing the defense every week, and from that I'm confident that the AI does typically ramp up the spying against running QBs. (You can check the Film Room page to see how often you are spying.) That said, it's very much an open question if most people in MP will even do that. I tend to suspect that there will be three types on defense in MP:

1. Rex every week
2. Rex once a year
3. Set it and forget it. (Custom defensive game plan that they use every week.)
4. Custom with changes every week.

My best guess is that right now it's probably 2,1,3,4 in order of greatest to least frequency, and that it will eventually switch to 3,1,2,4.

[Hammer]

I just completed a season in a full MP league, the QB went for 1026 yards rushing in 15 games at 7.95 ypc. Of the 129 carries I guess around 35 were designed QB runs. It was a fairly aggressive downfield passing attack, as I said before I have a feeling this promotes scrambling.

When GMs put a spy on him it did slow his running, but he took teams apart passing the ball. It seemed that the spy was hurting opponents ability to cover receivers, which makes sense.

[Mobarak]

Spread the receivers with longer routes should promote more scrambling.

[wustin]

bumping this has anyone had success creating a spread/read option offense?

I've had success in getting the QB to scramble with no called run plays for him in the offense but I keep getting horrible passing results.

[wustin]

dola

okay so I think the game executes my gameplan differently if I simulate straight up or manually sim each game.

http://imgur.com/a/F9ryQ

The first two images are straight season sims, the last two I simulated each game manually. I did 20-30 tests earlier today and for the most of my seasons it's consistent with the 2nd image. Cam would throw 8-10TDs and 20-30 ints with horrible completion %.

Maybe it's luck/random, idk.

[QuikSand]

Back in the day, when I had the patience to do real testing, I would routinely do ten or more zero-injury quick-sims of a given setup to see how well it worked. And seeing widely disparate results (like the same team going both 12-4 and 5-11 within the same set of ten identical runs) is not outside the norm.

It's a complex system. I don't think you can walk away from one season here and one season there and learn a ton.

[wustin]

I'm sure it doesn't matter since Jim does a good job testing but man it's bothering me.

Same gameplan with Seattle, top 2 are straight sims, bottom 2 are manual sims...

http://imgur.com/a/Jm6Wj

edit: my passing gameplan is probably just super volatile.

[QuikSand]

So, maybe I'll get back into this line of thought. I still have a late-career stud at QB, bu drafted this guy in the GML this season:

Originally Posted by GML Postbot

Baltimore: QuikSand takes QB Norman Schelling with the 1.31 pick.

Screen Passes 0<->32
Short Passes 33<->64
Medium Passes 65<->97
Long Passes 55<->86
Deep Passes 52<->83
Third Down Passing 57<->88
Accuracy 67<->99
Timing 52<->83
Sense Rush 28<->60
Read Defense 27<->59
Two Minute Offense 0<->32
Scramble Frequency 68<->100
Kick Holding 66<->97

HT
WT
RAW
ADJ
DASH
SOL
BENCH
AGI
BRJU
POS
%DEV
73
209
5.5
6.2
4.30
44
12
7.80
108
89
1

(No clue if the formatting will hold up here...but if not, he's a decent-looking QB who ran a 4.30 dash and has a maxed-out Scr Frq range)

So, it may be a couple seasons before this guy gets the reins, but in the GML that's not too long. If he looks promising, I could build a whole team around him I guess (chemistry would require a massive refit).

[QuikSand]

meh, my guy looks like a really fast hobo in the first on-the-roster view... love his accuracy bar of 0/86

[Hammer]

Just something to consider. Might be nothing in it but I have had a lot more joy with young QBs. When they got older their running ability seemed to die despite SF staying the same.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Just something to consider. Might be nothing in it but I have had a lot more joy with young QBs. When they got older their running ability seemed to die despite SF staying the same.

Doesn't seem out of the question that this could be hard-coded into the game, without mention anywhere in the fairly spartan documentation.

[Dawgfan19]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Just something to consider. Might be nothing in it but I have had a lot more joy with young QBs. When they got older their running ability seemed to die despite SF staying the same.

I wouldn't make assumptions this is how the game works. My experience is completely different.

In the FFL, my 11th year QB averaged 687 rushing yards in his first 10 seasons. He is projected to rush for 750 yards in year 11.

In the TFL, I have another QB who averaged 566 yards in years 1 through 10, with 564 yards in year 11.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

So, maybe I'll get back into this line of thought. I still have a late-career stud at QB, bu drafted this guy in the GML this season:

---mixed bag bar pattern quoted from other forum---

(No clue if the formatting will hold up here...but if not, he's a decent-looking QB who ran a 4.30 dash and has a maxed-out Scr Frq range)

So, it may be a couple seasons before this guy gets the reins, but in the GML that's not too long. If he looks promising, I could build a whole team around him I guess (chemistry would require a massive refit).

Yeah, he's a sack of monkey shit. Missed opportunity. Could have drafted a solid role player there, instead shit the bed going after a non-affinity shiny object. Very unlikely he'll ever get the car keys.

[QuikSand]

And in year two, my formerly interesting QB managed a pedestrian 4.66 in the dash. So much for a build-around guy.

[QuikSand]

Fun guy in a serious multi player league: Derek Barge is in Charge