WW XCIV Group Therapy - Game Over!

[Danny]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Saldana, did Jackal have the role that you thought he would have?

I'm not allowing Saldana to answer this. I would like questions/revealing/fake revealing type stuff about roles to be at a minimum over the last few days.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

1. You have a questionable voting record
2. All of a sudden you and CR vouch for each other, yet you are both alive
3. You are coming at me despite others having far bigger warts and I know I am good
4. You are playing the helpful villager role I've seen you play as a wolf in the past

1. I think a lot of people have bad voting records, especially after yesterday. Heck, I tend to think that anyone who has put a vote on me at any point in the game (even if it came off later) has a bad record because they could be a wolf probing to see if they can get me lynched. However, I understand that this is a relative term and I'm guilty as charged.

But I think my "suspicion" record is actually at least as bad because I thought that Telle was good and ended up supporting her (relative to other candidates) quite a bit. That said, I would have made sure to have a good vote on Day 5 when she went down based on what I assume the wolves knew about the seer.

2. Well, I only put the vouch out yesterday because I was concerned about where the early voting was headed. We both picked up a couple of votes and I was certain that there were a number of better options for the village. Sadly, Abe was not one of them. But the village at least had a chance yesterday to get a good vote because we came forward. That information is sitll valuable today.

Is it convenient? Well, only in the respect that it kept two villagers alive yesterday during the day. I can't speak with any certainty about the actions of the wolves at night other than to suggest that they have a certain amount of moxie to not take a shot at one of us and hope that they get two dead villagers as a result.

3. Don't overlook the quality of your own warts. Seriously, I think I had a fair amount of patience not voting for you while giving you time to demonstrate some role that was beneficial to the village. Suggestions of a role without some kind of demonstration - through votes, moderator writeups, or actionable information from you - don't hold much water to me on Day 7.

But I'm more than willing to discuss candidates that you think have bigger warts.

4. I also play helpful villager when I'm a villager. So that is kind of a tough one for me to argue one way or the other.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Lathum

that reminds me.

I am leaving for Maine on the red eye tomorrow night and won't be back until Tuesday afternoon.

Uh oh, if you run across me, don't say anything about the game.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The way he came at me is unlike him as a wolf and his late vote on Telle the other day.

The day that the wolves got Telle, where they absolutely positively did not want the seer to come out and reveal because they were going to night kill him?

Or another vote on Telle (not D5)?

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Hoops, do you have each days voting results on a spreadsheet where you can easily post them. I'm going to either be in classes today or working on papers so I have limited time to search.

You say PF's voting record is pretty good, I remember otherwise.

Also, today is the second day DT has followed me with a quick second vote onto someone.

Do you want final votes or vote/unvotes?

Final votes - Autumn already posted through D5 but I'm happy to update it.

Vote/unvotes - I've listed them in the thread for each day based on notepad files I have. I don't know a more efficient way to list them but I'm willing to take suggestions.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'm not allowing Saldana to answer this. I would like questions/revealing/fake revealing type stuff about roles to be at a minimum over the last few days.

Wow, I thought asking him for his perceptions on the role of another player was pretty far inbounds.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Lathum

why such certainty about these 3?

I can't really answer that. But I am very certain.

You, I'm on the fence about. I won't be voting you today though, I'm leaning towards you telling the truth and I think time will tell.

That leaves me PF, Poli, Dubb93 and DaddyT to pick from. Those will be my choices today.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Wow, I thought asking him for his perceptions on the role of another player was pretty far inbounds.

I understand, but in general I want to steer discussions away from that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Also, today is the second day DT has followed me with a quick second vote onto someone.

I was also the only person voting for that person yesterday so i don't really see it as a stretch.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I was also the only person voting for that person yesterday so i don't really see it as a stretch.

considering the way the voting went down yesterday I'm not sure you want to hang your hat on that one.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'm not allowing Saldana to answer this. I would like questions/revealing/fake revealing type stuff about roles to be at a minimum over the last few days.

I don't want to sidetrack us but this removes a pretty fundamental part of the game. Speculating on someone's role then using that speculation to determine your vote is half the game. Without it what are we really supposed to go by, voting history only?

I mean, why give everyone a role if you can't roleplay with it and utilize it strategicaly? Makes no sense.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Do you want final votes or vote/unvotes?

Final votes - Autumn already posted through D5 but I'm happy to update it.

Vote/unvotes - I've listed them in the thread for each day based on notepad files I have. I don't know a more efficient way to list them but I'm willing to take suggestions.

can you direct me to where Autumn posted them.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I don't want to sidetrack us but this removes a pretty fundamental part of the game. Speculating on someone's role then using that speculation to determine your vote is half the game. Without it what are we really supposed to go by, voting history only?

I mean, why give everyone a role if you can't roleplay with it and utilize it strategicaly? Makes no sense.

I understand, but I've handicapped all players here, wolves and villagers a like regarding this. The point of the roles were to give people more information/abilities, but not having reveals as a basis of who to vote for. I approved a post of Jackal's that I should not have that basically was a full reveal, so I decided to tighten up on this.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Autumn

This is quite ugly but here is the voting list that I have, Hoops.


The Jackal 1 PurdueBrad 2 Purdue 3 PurdueBrad 4 Lerriuqs 5 Claphamsa

Abe 1 ntndeacon 2 Purdue 3 PurdueBrad 4 Lerriuqs 5 Telle

PackerFanatic 1 ntndeacon 2 Eaglefan 3 PurdueBrad 4 Telle 5 Telle

Hoopsguy 1 Eaglefan 2 Purdue 3 Saldana 4 Claphamsa 5 Claphamsa

Lathum 1 Eaglefan 2 Purdue 3 PurdueBrad 4 Criticized 5 Telle Criticized

Poli 1 Telle 2 Eaglefan 3 Telle 4 Telle 5 Telle

Dubb93 1 Eaglefan 2 Eaglefan 3 Saldana 4 Lerriuqs 5 Telle

Autumn 1 Telle 2 Eaglefan 3 Telle 4 Telle 5 Claphamsa

Chief Rum 1 Eaglefan 2 Purdue 3 Saldana 4 Claphamsa 5 Claphamsa

DaddyTorgo 1 ntndeacon 2 Eaglefan 3 PurdueBrad 4 Lerriuqs 5 Telle

Saldana 1 dubb 2 Hoopsguy 3 Telle 4 Lerriuqs 5 Telle

Originally Posted by Autumn

Here is my summary of the voting, simply going by who has voted for Wolves/Unknowns/Villagers.

5/0/0 Jackal, always voted villager
4/0/1 Abe, voted villager until day 5
3/1/1 Hoops, 3 villager, 1 wolf, 1 unknown
3/1/1 Chief, 3 villager, 1 wolf, 1 unknown
2/0/2 Lathum, wolf twice, villager twice
3/0/2 DaddtyT, 3 villager, 2 wolf
2/1/2 Saldana, 2 wolf, 1 unknown
2/1/2 Pass, 2 wolves, 1 unknown
2/0/3 Martin, wolf three times
2/0/3 Packer, voted wolf three times
1/1/3 Dubb, 3 wolf, 1 unknown
0/0/5 Poli, all villager

I put them in order of worst voting record to best, though obviously it doesn't take into account any nuances of hte vote.

Autumn's post on final votes, do not include D6.

[hoopsguy]

Vouches at this point:
Autumn - Saldana, Hoops, Chief Rum
Hoops - Chief Rum
Chief Rum - Hoops

Just so we are clear - there are two people who have expressed a high degree of certainty that I am not a wolf but I'm the only person with votes right now?

Is the assumption now that Autumn must also be a wolf along with me and Chief? I'm wondering how I have votes and no one else does right now.

[Lathum]

Hoops, my vote on you is in anticipation of you voting me, I would be willing to listen to other potential candidates for today.

[Autumn]

Hoops, I'm likely not going to vote Lathum today. Who on my target list would you be wiling to vote?

[hoopsguy]

Lathum, I still believe that you are the best vote for a wolf today. However, if Autumn has access to info that suggests you are not a good vote (along with Saldana) then I would turn to either DT or PF next.

I also have previously stated (I think? Can verify later) that I think one of DT/Saldana is good and one is a wolf. So it would probably go over to DT next.

Heck, I'll put that out now and see what happens.

VOTE DADDYTORGO

[hoopsguy]

I still think that if DT is a wolf he has made some pretty curious plays. But I'm going to go check something on D1 right now ...

[Lathum]

unvote Hoops


I am leaning towards DT, he has had some questionable late voting moves.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

ugh - i forgot that deadline was 8 and didn't realize what time it was

at least it was just d1

That was DT's post, about 55 minutes after the deadline. Nothing much to see there one way or another.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Hoops, my vote on you is in anticipation of you voting me, I would be willing to listen to other potential candidates for today.

How about instead voting for who you think is most likely a wolf?

Not really the best point of the game to do a "pre-emptive" tit for tat vote.

[hoopsguy]

DT does not have any posts in the three hours prior to the deadline. I did not go back any further than that. So he may have missed a good chunk of Day 1 entirely, rather than just not voted.

Earlier I had maintained that the wolves would talk with each other and not let one of their members miss a day where one of their members (EF) was on the line and another one (Telle) was creeping up the standings late. But maybe he just was not at his machine?

OK, the other pro-DT point I had was back on Day 4 (I think) where DT had put a vote on Telle vs Lerri that cut the margin to 6-3. It was right after Autumn had made it 6-2. I suggested that DT would not want to be part of potentially creating a run on Telle that day. It was not like D5 where they had identified the seer. The wolves would have thought Lerri was a villager.

So the only real explanation for DT putting his vote in here was that he thought it was safe to bury a vote on a wolf then, only to see a run emerge behind him? He was around at the deadline and did (along with Dubb) switch the votes when Lerri made a move to tie it up with Telle one minute before deadline.

[Chief Rum]

Oh, good, you are reconsidering. Sorry Lathum, shoulda read down to the bottom.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

How about instead voting for who you think is most likely a wolf?

Not really the best point of the game to do a "pre-emptive" tit for tat vote.

how about not telling me who I should vote for.

And trust me, I still have my suspicions about you and Hoops.

[Lathum]

oops,I shoulda read down to the bottom

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I can't really answer that. But I am very certain.

You, I'm on the fence about. I won't be voting you today though, I'm leaning towards you telling the truth and I think time will tell.

That leaves me PF, Poli, Dubb93 and DaddyT to pick from. Those will be my choices today.

Autumn, you said that you were on the fence with Lathum and that you believe Saldana is a villager. You have stated that you are not voting for either of them today.

The very suspicious part of me is concerned that you are indicating that you are not going to be voting for the two people I had at the top of my "wolf" list earlier this morning. This would be a pretty clever way of you to go about directing us in the wrong direction with the vote today and hope * that you are in position to win the game tonight/tomorrow with a double kill.

Staying within the bounds of what is allowed and not allowed in the thread, can you distinguish why you have different levels of trust for Lathum and Saldana right now?




* - note that I have not made any mention about the potential effectiveness, or lack thereof, associated with this hypothetical wolf plan. I would not want to suggest any further speculation on my role beyond what has been suggested by others in the thread. I hope that this is in keeping with the moderator intent

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't want to vote for myself because i know i'm a villager, albeit one who can now no longer provide any useful info on anybody.

i'd rather vote lathum than saldana, just b/c i don't think lathum+hoops are on the same side. but i suppose saldana + pf + lathum/hoops could be the trio of wolves left...

[hoopsguy]

DT - "no longer provide useful info on anybody"?

Can you explain the past tense here?

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm not sure that i can without talking too much about my role and having Danny crackdown on me. Basically means what it says though - i have info leading me to have favorable/unfavorable views of people in the game. unfortunately it is no longer useful info.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm not sure that i can without talking too much about my role and having Danny crackdown on me. Basically means what it says though - i have info leading me to have favorable/unfavorable views of people in the game. unfortunately it is no longer useful info.

because they are dead?

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Staying within the bounds of what is allowed and not allowed in the thread, can you distinguish why you have different levels of trust for Lathum and Saldana right now?

I know Danny wants us to stay away from role talk. I think I can say that I have not yet seen all of the evidence in thread that I would like to supporting Lathum's claims of a role. There is some lingering doubt that he might be faking one. I don't feel that way about Saldana, and I think Jackal's death should confirm that for others.

[Autumn]

I'm still willing to consider DT today, but I'm more interested in pursuing PackerFan and Dubb. I feel they're top suspects out of the ones I have left. Since you have shown willingness to possibly go after PF, Hoops, and i think others have, I will try him.

VOTE PACKERFANATIC

[hoopsguy]

If Dubb has played as a wolf he has made really, really daring votes at times that were particularly damaging to the wolves. And additionally put in votes that were not necessarily favorable to the wolves.

D1 - put EF up 4-2
D2 - another EF vote in a tight race with PB
D4 - put a vote on Telle tying her up at 5-5

Those are the ones off the top of my head. I believe he also had unvote opportunities that he did not take. But I would have to go back through my day-by-day notes to validate my recollections on the "non-votes".

That is why I'm more or less willing to accept that he is not a wolf and give him all the credit he is due if he pulled the wool over my eyes.

[saldana]

i honestly have no idea where to go today..i really want to see either hoops or lathum lynched just because it will put an end to the question...i also want DT to go down because of his deadline activities for the past 2 days in a row.

right now i am leaning towards hoops for a combination of voting record and gut.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

because they are dead?

*nods*

[DaddyTorgo]

UNVOTE HOOPSGUY

[Lathum]

that's somewhat convenient.

[Autumn]

only as convenient as your role not having to come into play yet. I believe you're both in the same pot.

[Autumn]

I'm not sure why people are seeing the Lathum/Hoops back and forth as condemning one or the other. They seem clearly two players suspicious of each other, and both vocal ones. Why couldn't it be villager/villager? Not that htere couldn't be a wolf there, but I don't buy this reasoning of "having" to go there to settle a question.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'm not sure why people are seeing the Lathum/Hoops back and forth as condemning one or the other. They seem clearly two players suspicious of each other, and both vocal ones. Why couldn't it be villager/villager? Not that htere couldn't be a wolf there, but I don't buy this reasoning of "having" to go there to settle a question.

I agree, seems like a very wolfy way to get a solid player lynched.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

only as convenient as your role not having to come into play yet. I believe you're both in the same pot.

I would agree with this, except DT is claiming he is no longer of use to us while my ability has yet to manifest itself.

DT, was your ability a one time thing?

[Lathum]

dola- he may not be able to answer that which makes me crazy.

[Autumn]

But you've admitted that yours is out of your control to manifest. Which I can understand, but leaves the rest of us in the spot of having to believe both or either or neither of you.

[PackerFanatic]

Besides me being UTR (which I am sure you will say), what is the case against me? My vote yesterday was off, but it didn't really seem like anyone knew what was up yesterday.

[DaddyTorgo]

no

[DaddyTorgo]

i have no banannas

[Lathum]

I have some theories about DT and role but I guess I have to keep it to myself

[DaddyTorgo]

till after the game yep - but i will say you're probably right lathum

[DaddyTorgo]

*breakin the rules...breakin the rules*

HI CHIEF RUM!!! Rare midday visit from you!!!