I Need Your Help - Salary Request

Abe Sargent · 03-09-2006, 10:50 AM

I was interviewed by phone yesterday by a gaming company located in Seattle. I was asked one of my least favorite questions. "What salary expectations do you have?"

That one question can lowball you or highball you quite badly. If I say, "38,000" and they are thinking 45-50k, then I've left a lot on the table. If they are thinking 28-33k, then I've priced myself out of a job.

The problem with this particular job is that it is organized play management, and there are only a few such jobs in the gaming industry. It's a very limited field that's only been around for a decade or so, and the few jobs that there are don't have advertised salaries.

I know that the cost of living in Seattle is higher than most any other place in America. I want a livable wage - enough to get an apartment of decent size, pay all of my bills, pay for food, clothing, other accessories, tithe to a church, and save about 5k a year for medicial expenses that I expect to begin in about ten years or so.

How much should I ask for?

If anybody has experience with the Seattle area, the gaming industry, or could otherwise help, it'd be appreciated.

-Anxiety

WSUCougar · 03-09-2006, 10:52 AM

Is it in Seattle proper, Bellevue, or where?

Abe Sargent · 03-09-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Is it in Seattle proper, Bellevue, or where?

Company is in Bellevue.

-Anxiety

Toddzilla · 03-09-2006, 10:58 AM

Shoot for the moon. In my experience, if you blow past their salary range (for example, say you want $50K when they're expecting to pay $40K), they'll tell you. Typically they'll say, "That's quite a bit out of our price range. Is that going to be a problem?" Then it is on you to make sure they know that you're not interested in the job solely for the salary - tell them that benefits, corporate culture, work environment, etc. is just as important, and you'd be willing to take less in order to land the job that makes you happy. Companies *love* happy employees.

WSUCougar · 03-09-2006, 10:58 AM

Heh. My hometown. And nothing what it used to be (a quiet little bedroom community) when I grew up there.

Other locals can give you a clearer idea of current costs, but you'd be right smack in the midst of upscale suburbia. I'd dial up your request accordingly.

General comment, though, about salary requests. You're the best person to answer the question. Given the cost of living and all that, what do you feel is a fair wage for the work you would be performing? At what break point do you see yourself being happy with the salary versus unhappy?

Desnudo · 03-09-2006, 11:15 AM

Do not live in Bellevue, live in Seattle if at all possible. Bellevue has the character of cardboard. I'm sure you can find info on cost of living indexes somewhere on the web, but Seattle is a reasonablely priced place to live compared to a lot of cities. Much less expensive than SF, Orange County/LA, San Diego, Boston, NY, Washington DC, etc.. Although probably more expensive than Ypsilanti, MI.

If you were making 50K a year, you should be able to afford a reasonable one BR apartment. Less than, say 45K, and you would probably be looking at a roommate scenario.

I would ask for what you think you are worth.

gstelmack · 03-09-2006, 11:17 AM

Does "gaming" mean computer game development or gambling?

Raiders Army · 03-09-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I was interviewed by phone yesterday by a gaming company located in Seattle. I was asked one of my least favorite questions. "What salary expectations do you have?"

That one question can lowball you or highball you quite badly. If I say, "38,000" and they are thinking 45-50k, then I've left a lot on the table. If they are thinking 28-33k, then I've priced myself out of a job.

The problem with this particular job is that it is organized play management, and there are only a few such jobs in the gaming industry. It's a very limited field that's only been around for a decade or so, and the few jobs that there are don't have advertised salaries.

I know that the cost of living in Seattle is higher than most any other place in America. I want a livable wage - enough to get an apartment of decent size, pay all of my bills, pay for food, clothing, other accessories, tithe to a church, and save about 5k a year for medicial expenses that I expect to begin in about ten years or so.

How much should I ask for?

If anybody has experience with the Seattle area, the gaming industry, or could otherwise help, it'd be appreciated.

-Anxiety

My advice is never tell them a range when you're in the first interview stage. I'd say, "I would want to be fairly compensated for my skills and experience based on the cost of living in that area."

Once you get an actual offer, give them a range. If you can, negotiate moving costs, a signing bonus, and "extras" like a company car or phone at that point as well.

My two cents.

Abe Sargent · 03-09-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Does "gaming" mean computer game development or gambling?

No. It means games.

-Anxiety

Anthony · 03-09-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

My advice is never tell them a range when you're in the first interview stage. I'd say, "I would want to be fairly compensated for my skills and experience based on the cost of living in that area."

Once you get an actual offer, give them a range. If you can, negotiate moving costs, a signing bonus, and "extras" like a company car or phone at that point as well.

My two cents.

exactly. that's it right there.

of course, you should do your homework and get an idea as to what the salary range is for someone not only with your experience but others in the position that you're applying for. gives you a more accurate range. you could perhaps reply with "i'm more interested in the opportunity than what the compensation would be - i'm confident that if you decide to bring me on board that you'll offer compensation based on what the market deems is appropriate for someone in this position."

of course you want as much money as possible, but you want an offer first. i think all companies assume you want more but ask this question anyway to see if you know interview etiquette and know how to play the game. don't ever be stupid and blurt out an exact number. if they press, offer a wide range and reply "the typical compensation for this position is [i'm making this up] $30K-$50K, and that's a range that i'm comfortable with."

hope that helps.

Abe Sargent · 03-09-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

exactly. that's it right there.

of course, you should do your homework and get an idea as to what the salary range is for someone not only with your experience but others in the position that you're applying for. gives you a more accurate range. you could perhaps reply with "i'm more interested in the opportunity than what the compensation would be - i'm confident that if you decide to bring me on board that you'll offer compensation based on what the market deems is appropriate for someone in this position."

of course you want as much money as possible, but you want an offer first. i think all companies assume you want more but ask this question anyway to see if you know interview etiquette and know how to play the game. don't ever be stupid and blurt out an exact number. if they press, offer a wide range and reply "the typical compensation for this position is [i'm making this up] $30K-$50K, and that's a range that i'm comfortable with."

hope that helps.

The problem is that there is no way to know the typical salary for this position. As I mentioned above, there's probably only a dozen or so organized play jobs in the gaming industry as it is a new field.

-Anxiety

Desnudo · 03-09-2006, 01:33 PM

What exactly is organized play management?

Icy · 03-09-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

What exactly is organized play management?

LOL i guess we all are curious about that as it sounds like a dream job.

moriarty · 03-09-2006, 01:41 PM

If they force you to provide a number, you're almost always better to err on the high end. Try to have the conversation face to face, and watch their reaction. If they grimace, make a sour face, etc... to your number follow it up with, something like, "the position is something I'm really interested in though, so if my salary request should eliminate me from job consideration, I might be willing to revisit it". Obviously, you don't want to say that unless you have to, but if they are a half way decent HR/manager, they'll tell you if you're out of their salary range without requiring the guesswork on your end. Another option is to state your number, and just ask them how that fits with their expectations. If they say you're way too high (and you still want the job) just singal you might be willing to accept less.

And as mentioned, if they don't meet your salary, try to negotiate on another front (like bonus, additional week of vacation, moving costs, etc.).

Abe Sargent · 03-09-2006, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

LOL i guess we all are curious about that as it sounds like a dream job.

Rankings of players, events, tournaments, rewards, talking to various retailers and judges for said events and more.

-Anxiety

Anthony · 03-09-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anxiety

The problem is that there is no way to know the typical salary for this position. As I mentioned above, there's probably only a dozen or so organized play jobs in the gaming industry as it is a new field.

-Anxiety

best bet i suppose is to lean on them to provide you what they feel is a fair range for the salary. most likely your gameplan should be to stress your interest in taking your career to the next level rather than stressing your compensation concerns.

Raiders Army · 03-09-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

best bet i suppose is to lean on them to provide you what they feel is a fair range for the salary. most likely your gameplan should be to stress your interest in taking your career to the next level rather than stressing your compensation concerns.

Good advice. Or you could ask them for an initial lower salary contingent upon certain performance bonuses. That way you can meet their expectations and prove you're worthy of a higher salary.

digamma · 03-09-2006, 02:07 PM

Ask them if they have a published range for the position. Then your response can be based off of that.

gstelmack · 03-09-2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anxiety

No. It means games.

-Anxiety

http://www.gamasutra.com has yearly salary surveys that may give you some pointers. Do a search on "salary survey". You'll probably need to join if not already a member.

Game industry salaries vary widely from employer to employer and region to region, and this one breaks it down a bit for you. They can also vary widely depending on discipline. As a new discipline, it may be hard to get good data, and so you may well need to negotiate with them. But I agree that they should make the first offer to you, as they're going to have a range in mind.

Samdari · 03-09-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anxiety

That one question can lowball you or highball you quite badly. If I say, "38,000" and they are thinking 45-50k, then I've left a lot on the table. If they are thinking 28-33k, then I've priced myself out of a job.

I don't think so. If you ask for more than their max they are looking to pay for that job, they'll offer you their max. I don't believe that you really go wrong asking a little too high.

Besides, if you really want, and are worth $38,000, why would you go work for 10k less?

JHandley · 03-09-2006, 02:37 PM

I work in Bellevue and live in Bothell. I'd much rather live in downtown Seattle or even Bellevue than Bothell, and I could afford to live in either place, but I place more of a premium on things like disposable income than the area that I'm living in. That's why I own a car

So, your mileage may vary, but I'd say to live comfortably in either Bellevue or Seattle, you'll need to make in the 65-75K range. If you want you can PM me for more specifics.

Desnudo · 03-09-2006, 04:39 PM

It depends on what you mean by live comfortably. If you mean own a condo in Belltown and still take vacations, yes, you're probably right. Otherwise I would say the bar is more around 45-50K to live alone in a half-decent apartment.

It's all what your priority is. You have a car, but I love being able to walk to buy groceries, go out to eat, drink, hit on college girls, etc..

JHandley · 03-09-2006, 05:23 PM

Couldn't agree more, Desnudo. But, living in Bellevue, Seattle or Redmond would mean I wouldn't have the money to spend on things like vacations, a motorcycle, games, and just plain goofing around money. Also, I like living in a much better than average apartment size. I'd love to live downtown, but it's a trade off.

I'm also a transplant here. Growing up in KC, you just naturally drive everwhere you want to go, so it's an easier trade off for me. Regardless, I'd say that's a good range. 45-50k to live modestly in Bellevue or Downtown, 65-75 to live comfortably.

Abe Sargent · 03-09-2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

http://www.gamasutra.com has yearly salary surveys that may give you some pointers. Do a search on "salary survey". You'll probably need to join if not already a member.

Game industry salaries vary widely from employer to employer and region to region, and this one breaks it down a bit for you. They can also vary widely depending on discipline. As a new discipline, it may be hard to get good data, and so you may well need to negotiate with them. But I agree that they should make the first offer to you, as they're going to have a range in mind.

I did read it, and it seems better than nothing. But I didn't see one thing about non-electronic games there. This is just games.

-Anxiety

gstelmack · 03-09-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I did read it, and it seems better than nothing. But I didn't see one thing about non-electronic games there. This is just games.

-Anxiety

Ahh, sorry, I thought you were talking computer games.

WVUFAN · 03-09-2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Ahh, sorry, I thought you were talking computer games.

Sounds like maybe setting up CCG games/tourneys. Do you know someone else who works in this field?

Abe Sargent · 03-09-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Sounds like maybe setting up CCG games/tourneys. Do you know someone else who works in this field?

Nope.

-Anxiety

03-09-2006, 10:52 AM	#2
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	Is it in Seattle proper, Bellevue, or where? __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

03-09-2006, 10:58 AM	#4
Toddzilla Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burke, VA	Shoot for the moon. In my experience, if you blow past their salary range (for example, say you want $50K when they're expecting to pay $40K), they'll tell you. Typically they'll say, "That's quite a bit out of our price range. Is that going to be a problem?" Then it is on you to make sure they know that you're not interested in the job solely for the salary - tell them that benefits, corporate culture, work environment, etc. is just as important, and you'd be willing to take less in order to land the job that makes you happy. Companies love happy employees. Last edited by Toddzilla : 03-09-2006 at 10:58 AM.

03-09-2006, 10:58 AM	#5
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	Heh. My hometown. And nothing what it used to be (a quiet little bedroom community) when I grew up there. Other locals can give you a clearer idea of current costs, but you'd be right smack in the midst of upscale suburbia. I'd dial up your request accordingly. General comment, though, about salary requests. You're the best person to answer the question. Given the cost of living and all that, what do you feel is a fair wage for the work you would be performing? At what break point do you see yourself being happy with the salary versus unhappy? __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

03-09-2006, 11:17 AM	#7
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	Does "gaming" mean computer game development or gambling? __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

03-09-2006, 01:41 PM	#14
moriarty College Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: A negative place	If they force you to provide a number, you're almost always better to err on the high end. Try to have the conversation face to face, and watch their reaction. If they grimace, make a sour face, etc... to your number follow it up with, something like, "the position is something I'm really interested in though, so if my salary request should eliminate me from job consideration, I might be willing to revisit it". Obviously, you don't want to say that unless you have to, but if they are a half way decent HR/manager, they'll tell you if you're out of their salary range without requiring the guesswork on your end. Another option is to state your number, and just ask them how that fits with their expectations. If they say you're way too high (and you still want the job) just singal you might be willing to accept less. And as mentioned, if they don't meet your salary, try to negotiate on another front (like bonus, additional week of vacation, moving costs, etc.). Last edited by moriarty : 03-09-2006 at 01:42 PM.

03-09-2006, 11:15 AM	#6
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	Do not live in Bellevue, live in Seattle if at all possible. Bellevue has the character of cardboard. I'm sure you can find info on cost of living indexes somewhere on the web, but Seattle is a reasonablely priced place to live compared to a lot of cities. Much less expensive than SF, Orange County/LA, San Diego, Boston, NY, Washington DC, etc.. Although probably more expensive than Ypsilanti, MI. If you were making 50K a year, you should be able to afford a reasonable one BR apartment. Less than, say 45K, and you would probably be looking at a roommate scenario. I would ask for what you think you are worth.

03-09-2006, 01:33 PM	#12
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	What exactly is organized play management?

03-09-2006, 02:07 PM	#18
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	Ask them if they have a published range for the position. Then your response can be based off of that.

03-09-2006, 02:37 PM	#21
JHandley High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle	I work in Bellevue and live in Bothell. I'd much rather live in downtown Seattle or even Bellevue than Bothell, and I could afford to live in either place, but I place more of a premium on things like disposable income than the area that I'm living in. That's why I own a car So, your mileage may vary, but I'd say to live comfortably in either Bellevue or Seattle, you'll need to make in the 65-75K range. If you want you can PM me for more specifics.

03-09-2006, 04:39 PM	#22
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	It depends on what you mean by live comfortably. If you mean own a condo in Belltown and still take vacations, yes, you're probably right. Otherwise I would say the bar is more around 45-50K to live alone in a half-decent apartment. It's all what your priority is. You have a car, but I love being able to walk to buy groceries, go out to eat, drink, hit on college girls, etc..

03-09-2006, 05:23 PM	#23
JHandley High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle	Couldn't agree more, Desnudo. But, living in Bellevue, Seattle or Redmond would mean I wouldn't have the money to spend on things like vacations, a motorcycle, games, and just plain goofing around money. Also, I like living in a much better than average apartment size. I'd love to live downtown, but it's a trade off. I'm also a transplant here. Growing up in KC, you just naturally drive everwhere you want to go, so it's an easier trade off for me. Regardless, I'd say that's a good range. 45-50k to live modestly in Bellevue or Downtown, 65-75 to live comfortably. Last edited by JHandley : 03-09-2006 at 05:23 PM.

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