Girl Bullied Till She Committed Suicide

[RainMaker]

This has been all over the news and didn't see it posted here. I know there are a few of you who work in the educational system and I'd really be interested in your thoughts. They seem to be just torching the Principal, teachers, and superintendent.

Phoebe Prince, South Hadley High School's 'new girl,' driven to suicide by teenage cyber bullies

Tough to tell with the sensationalization of the media whether this is typical bullying or something that got really bad. I have a feeling it's the latter. The girl and her parents had reported it to the school multiple times with little to no help provided. Not sure if the DA will win anything other than the statutory rape charges, but they seem to feel this was an extreme case.

I'm sort of torn on this issue. On one hand, it's a free society and this is part of growing up. I don't know how you can fairly police it and what it would do to our school and legal system if we made drastic changes. Teenagers are basically sociopathic shitbags trying to find their place on the social pyramid. Not sure if you can ever stop bullying as it impacts free speech and other civil rights.

On the other hand, these are kids. They don't have the same rights as us and for good reason. So why shouldn't there be laws against it? Why shouldn't every kid be given the chance to attend school without being in fear or having their self-esteem destroyed? How many kids have their futures altered by bullies?

[Apathetic Lurker]

They are torching the administration(everybody on top of the shitpile) because in quite a few instances the bullying occured in full view of teachers.

for better or worse bullying will always be here.

[rowech]

I cannot tell you how many times my wife has reported bullying/harassment to her principal with nothing happening. Most administrators will take the viewpoint that they have bigger problems and just talking to a kid will stop the problem. All it does is stop the problem at school...if that.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Most of the time it might stop the problem at that moment only

[cougarfreak]

In the state of KY, if I see it, it's the law I report it to the administrator. The administrator MUST deal with it (however he/she deems fit), but they MUST deal with it. I can tell you mine does this on a daily basis, as I teach Freshman, a lot of crap occurs. And he MUST file a report that goes to our school resource office, who works for the county sheriff's office. This policy just started this year, it's the LAW in the state. It's a PITA, but if it keeps an incident like what happened to Phoebe Prince from happening, it's worth it. I was amazed in an online poll I saw on MSNBC this week about the Prince incident, more people were blaming the teachers than the bullies themselves. Sure as a teacher, you stop it from happening in front of you, (and in my instance report it), but no way can a school stop it from happening at all. Especially in the age of texting, facebook, myspace, etc. But I can tell you, my administrator deals with stuff happening over those digital tools as well.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by rowech

People just don't understand teaching. 1500 kids in our high school, 70 teachers. We're supposed to monitor every kid at every second to make sure there is no bullying going on? In the classroom that's fine but in between classes? Lunch? After school stuff? Sporting events?

Yes, that may be so but there are also a lot of teachers, and I would say even more administrators that turn a blind eye to that stuff. Yes it is part of growing up to some degree but it is SO much worse now than when i was young. Sociopathic shitbags is about the right term. Some of these kids need one hell of a beating.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Rather than reactive measures which aim to stifle individual acts of bullying and are akin to killing one roach at a time; I suggest school wide environmental interventions such as positive behavioral supports. These measures create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

In the state of KY, if I see it, it's the law I report it to the administrator. The administrator MUST deal with it (however he/she deems fit), but they MUST deal with it. I can tell you mine does this on a daily basis, as I teach Freshman, a lot of crap occurs. And he MUST file a report that goes to our school resource office, who works for the county sheriff's office. This policy just started this year, it's the LAW in the state. It's a PITA, but if it keeps an incident like what happened to Phoebe Prince from happening, it's worth it. I was amazed in an online poll I saw on MSNBC this week about the Prince incident, more people were blaming the teachers than the bullies themselves. Sure as a teacher, you stop it from happening in front of you, (and in my instance report it), but no way can a school stop it from happening at all. Especially in the age of texting, facebook, myspace, etc. But I can tell you, my administrator deals with stuff happening over those digital tools as well.

So far, my wife and I have been satisfied with the our school's action. It's talked about a lot, and while some stuff does happen, they take action on all of it. I just wish that the school could get a handle on the kids disrespecting the teachers. That seems to have been the biggest change since I was in middle/high school. It's gotten so it's more like prisoners and guards than educators and learners. At least in my day, maybe there was one or two kids like that, now according to my oldest, many kids in each class are like that. The kids are forced by law to be there, so there is no incentive for them behave if they don't want to. The parents are big failures, and it only seems like it's going to get worse, as the texting generation starts to raise kids of their own.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So far, my wife and I have been satisfied with the our school's action. It's talked about a lot, and while some stuff does happen, they take action on all of it. I just wish that the school could get a handle on the kids disrespecting the teachers. That seems to have been the biggest change since I was in middle/high school. It's gotten so it's more like prisoners and guards than educators and learners. At least in my day, maybe there was one or two kids like that, now according to my oldest, many kids in each class are like that. The kids are forced by law to be there, so there is no incentive for them behave if they don't want to. The parents are big failures, and it only seems like it's going to get worse, as the texting generation starts to raise kids of their own.

I don't ever feel I'm a guard. Just a glorified babysitter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

These measures attempt to create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.

I added the italicized text after having seen two schools that were rather intense about the whole "kind language" environmental approach. And in both cases, bullies remained just as much a part of the school day as they were back in my day , the only difference was in how subtle they were when there were adults right in the middle of them.

As I told my son on more than one occasion (when he wished for the absence of one prick or another), "nature abhors a vacuum, if it wasn't for Bully X then Bully Y would emerge".

Not defending the bully culture in the slightest (I'm about the last guy on earth you'll find doing that after my own experiences 30+ years ago), just pointing out that any solution is going to likely need to be multi-faceted.

[Lathum]

Where were the girls parents in all of this?

I would like to think if my kid was being harassed like this they would come to me. Not saying it is the parents fault, but stuff like this is the reason kids need to feel comfortable communicating with their parents.

Obviously bullying is hard to police because of the numbers but I 100% think it should be illegal, and I was someone who was almost never a victim of bullying as a kid. Teens need to learn about the real world and in everyday life treating someone like this is a crime, it should be treated the same way in high school. This whole "right of passage" attitude about it is total bs. Granted, I think the girl probably had other issues committing suicide over it, but like someone else pointed out I can certainly see where it alters someones life through diminished self esteem, etc...

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This has been all over the news and didn't see it posted here. I know there are a few of you who work in the educational system and I'd really be interested in your thoughts. They seem to be just torching the Principal, teachers, and superintendent.

ically sociopathic shitbags trying to find their place on the social pyramid. Not sure if you can ever stop bullying as it impacts free speech and other civil rights.

On the other hand, these are kids. They don't have the same rights as us and for good reason. So why shouldn't there be laws against it? Why shouldn't every kid be given the chance to attend school without being in fear or having their self-esteem destroyed? How many kids have their futures altered by bullies?

I did a paper on Bullying and it's role in depression and suicide a few years ago when I was still in academics. At that time 7 states did have "no tolerance" laws for bullying and any observed bullying could lead to immediate expulsion and was supposed to result in an immediate suspension at the least. I don't know if that number has expanded, but I'm curious enough to check it out when I have time. Bullying is a factor in teen (and pre-teen) depression and suicide and it most certainly is not protected by free speech, same as you can't just yell out fire in a crowded theater if there is no fire.

Regardless of whether or not that state had any such laws against bullying, if teachers and principals were aware of it and did nothing while it occurred on school property, I hope they get hit with more than just some verbal torching.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Rather than reactive measures which aim to stifle individual acts of bullying and are akin to killing one roach at a time; I suggest school wide environmental interventions such as positive behavioral supports. These measures create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.

Agreed. This is the only proven method that helps to some extent.

[Lathum]

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Lathum

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?

Impossible for me to know without knowing a lot more details. My guess is that the bullying was at least a major factor, but I doubt it was the only factor as suicide usually has multiple causative factors.

[TroyF]

There are so many things that disturb me about this.

For one, I was bullied and bullied bad. It led to severe depression and near suicide when I was in junior high school to about 10th grade. I was 5'3" 90 pounds as a SO in high school. Even littler in junior high. (FWIW, I'm now 6'3", 200 pounds) I was kicked in the stomach, had my nose broke once, had books thrown into bathrooms or trash cans, my locker was useless. . . it was broken into and trashed at least once a week. Did the administrators of the school know? You bet your ass they knew. It was a large JHS and HS, but when the pack mentality starts in, they don't care where they do it and they get more brazen.

Now, did my parents know? No, they didn't. I internalized everything. All I wanted it to do was stop. The last thing I wanted was for it to get worse. I figured if I told my father that's what would happen.

I find it very hard to believe that the teachers did not know something major was going on. In the girls first couple of months she's dating a popular football player? Then she goes to suicide? I can promise you that even if they didn't see a single incident, that girl was going through hell and it showed. I'm also sure administrators saw some of this stuff happening and figured it's just kids being kids. I hope the investigation finds out the truth and those who did look the other way look for jobs the other way.

As a postscript to my story, when I went to my HS reunion, I had many people come up and apologize for their conduct and said they regretted what they had done. I think what TheOhioStateUniversity said is the only way this can be helped. (not stopped, but helped)

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Lathum

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?

Since I spouted off my life story above, I'll answer this from my perspective:

There were plenty of things that led to me coming close to doing it. Family issues were a big one. The bullying was probably the single biggest factor though. It limited my ability to make friends, made going to school on a daily basis feel like I was walking into a prison, and stripped me of 98% of my self confidence. Now that I'm an adult, I honestly don't care what other people think of me. Back when I was a kid, it was one of the only things I thought about.

[molson]

Maybe things have changed, but when I was in school, teacher involvement was the LAST thing you wanted when you were being bullied.

At least if it was kind of a borderline level of teasing. Getting the teachers/parents involved would just bring things to a much worse level.

[lungs]

I'm pretty good friends with a guy I bullied in Middle School. Not like the physical beat up bullying but picking on somebody because they are a little strange.

He's still a little strange, but aren't we all? I actually find his strangeness to be quite hilarious these days.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

He's still a little strange, but aren't we all?

One of the great pearls of wisdom I ever got from a teacher was that "normal is just the average of all us abnormals ... and who wants to be 'average'?"

That said however I think one of the things that determines how we deal with that reality is whether you learn to embrace your "inner strange" or if it always bothers you to some degree.

[Noop]

I hate bullies. I got suspended my freshmen and sophomore year in high-school for fighting a bully.

Why weren't the parents more involved or did they not care enough to notice a difference in their child?

[flere-imsaho]

I was bullied in junior high. Naturally by the biggest kid (by a significant margin) in our grade. You definitely didn't want to get the teachers involved because they'd end up humiliating you as much as the bully (usually some sort of "staged" apology or whatnot in front of the whole class), and then when the teachers weren't around....

Eventually, when I told my Dad about it, he gave me really specific instructions for how to deliver the worst sucker punch known to man to this kid, which I subsequently did. After falling across three rows of chairs and ending up on his ass in front of the whole class, by the smallest kid in class, he didn't bully me anymore.

Of course, this was probably one of the major reasons why I was socially ostracized for the entirety of high school (the other was that I routinely outperformed all the other students, academically), and why I have no desire to see any of those lazy fucks ever again, but life got much better in college.

[lungs]

I'm just glad I realized what an ass hole I was in middle school and early high school before I graduated high school so I could make amends before we all parted at graduation. Doesn't excuse my being a dick, but it helps.

Coincidentally, my transformation occurred when I started partying and smoking weed. I started to meet a lot of the outcasts and realizing that they aren't so bad or that I'm just as fucked up as they are in some ways. Not an excuse for drug use, but it sure didn't hurt in that department.

[Izulde]

From the NYT article I read on this, the parents *did* contact the administration about it, at least twice.

No surprise that it was the girls who did the vast majority of the bullying. Women have always been the most efficient, brutal bullies (as Thackeray so amusingly observes in Vanity Fair, and that was in the late 1800s). To paraphrase what I heard or read somewhere, only a woman can insult you with a major burn while politely complimenting you.

As for my own historical perspective, I was bullied a ton in middle school and it shattered my self-confidence all throughout high school, and even to some degree now, as I still don't make friends easily at all and constantly feel like I'm not good enough. I wasn't bullied too much in high school, because, for reasons still unknown to me this day, a large number of the gangbangers protected me, although I didn't find out just how much until years after I graduated.

[Sgran]

To those who asked if this girl was suffering from more than bullying: try to imagine the culture shock of moving to a tough high school from some small village in Ireland.

By the way, did anyone else find the "dating the senior football player" story odd? They dated briefly? So, like, some senior nailed her a weekend and then bragged about it all over school (like I would have done during my SuperAsshole years)? Or he got caught cheating on his SuperBitch girlfriend with some chick from freshman from Ireland?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sgran

To those who asked if this girl was suffering from more than bullying: try to imagine the culture shock of moving to a tough high school from some small village in Ireland.

By the way, did anyone else find the "dating the senior football player" story odd? They dated briefly? So, like, some senior nailed her a weekend and then bragged about it all over school (like I would have done during my SuperAsshole years)? Or he got caught cheating on his SuperBitch girlfriend with some chick from freshman from Ireland?

There were a couple of statutory rape charges among the students cited.

But ya, this doesn't seem like it was the "jock/nerd" (for lack of a better phrase) bullying. This girl got a lot of male attention right away, and the mean girls at this school freaked the hell out about it.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Now that I'm an adult, I honestly don't care what other people think of me. Back when I was a kid, it was one of the only things I thought about.

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.

So true. Doesn't matter how popular, how good they look, or how successful they are either. Just in the past 2 weeks, I saw this beautiful 15 year old girl who I believe has almost zero self-esteem and is just constantly preoccupied with her belief that everyone dislikes her and thinks she is ugly. I also saw this 16 year old boy who is a very good high school baseball player, is good looking, and reasonably smart, but he is suffering severe anxiety mostly from ruminating on how his peers dissect everything he does or says.

[Dodgerchick]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I added the italicized text after having seen two schools that were rather intense about the whole "kind language" environmental approach. And in both cases, bullies remained just as much a part of the school day as they were back in my day , the only difference was in how subtle they were when there were adults right in the middle of them.

One thing that really irritates me about our daughter's school is that they teach the kids to use "I messages" to get their point across. I wish I could remember details about this specific incident, but the jist of it is that Larissa (our 9 year old) was grabbed and pulled by a kid and she told this kid how she felt (per this stupid rule). This of course did nothing, but when she told me, I told her if a kid grabbed her or she felt physically threatened in any way, she has my permission to defend herself. These bullshit "I messages" won't do shit if my daughter is getting pushed, grabbed, or hurt in any way. It seriously drives me nuts.

[SportsDino]

In my experience schools are very unfair in their punishments, often the worst offenders are allowed to run amock, whereas if you don't look like a thug if you get caught doing anything they throw the book at you. I think most administrators are human garbage, maybe its just my local district though.

There is no reason to allow bullying in schools, and they should at least take all reasonable measures to reduce/prevent it. Most bullies are petty crooks in training, and cowards in general.

For anyone who thinks there were 'other factors', imagine your entire life consists of being teased, ridiculed, and isolated. With physical attacks interspersed amongst loneliness and disrespect. Hell, most adults get depressed over relatively weaker stimuli than that... if such passive wear and tear can drive people to kill themselves, why not active harassment over an extended period of time? There is no doubt for me that is the reason she is dead, they'll find some bullshit story they cook up, probably involving chemicals and nonsense talk (they want every kid to be trainquilized into a zombie these days).

[Sun Tzu]

I wasn't a bully, but I did my fair share of poking fun at those less popular and athletic than myself. I cleaned up my act by the time I got to H.S. but I'm definitely guilty of making a few kids miserable for a short period of time.

That being said, there is never an acceptable reason for suicide IMO...well not unless you've been grossly disfigured in an accident or something.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Rather than reactive measures which aim to stifle individual acts of bullying and are akin to killing one roach at a time; I suggest school wide environmental interventions such as positive behavioral supports. These measures create an environment where the vile nature of bullying is fully understood by the children from kindergarten on and is not tolerated by anyone in the building due to a mutually agreed upon code of conduct.

I know this has been seconded and thirded quite a bit in the thread, but I'm not at all sure what this means and sounds a lot like buzz words rammed together. I mean, I know what it means in an ethereal sense. But, what concrete actions could be done to promote such actions? I think we pretty much all agree that bullying is bad. But what actual enumerable steps can be done to lessen bullying and not just shift it around (as JIMGA's power vacuum notes).

I'm not saying they're not out there. But I don't know what they are and we haven't really said anything in this thread that could prevent a thing.

SI

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I know this has been seconded and thirded quite a bit in the thread, but I'm not at all sure what this means and sounds a lot like buzz words rammed together. I mean, I know what it means in an ethereal sense. But, what concrete actions could be done to promote such actions? I think we pretty much all agree that bullying is bad. But what actual enumerable steps can be done to lessen bullying and not just shift it around (as JIMGA's power vacuum notes).

I'm not saying they're not out there. But I don't know what they are and we haven't really said anything in this thread that could prevent a thing.

SI

The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder, and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken. Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system. I don't think it is any magical cure but it helps some.

[SportsDino]

Originally Posted by rowech

Here's the way most bullying reports go...

1. Students tell teacher X is bullying Y.

2. Teacher passes on to main office.

3. Principal calls in X and Y. Y refuses to say they are being bullied and X refuses to admit to it.

4. Principal's hands are tied because teacher didn't hear it and going on student reports is not enough for a principal to issue a punishment.

5. Harassment continues forever or until a teacher finally hears/sees it.

I can assure you that if Y does say crap is going on, principal still doesn't do anything. Probably dependent on the principal of course.

I guarantee if Y knocks X down though after being hit all day, that if Y is not a 'hardened thug beyond all help' they will be treated like crap. Then X will see they get off light and Y gets the book thrown at them, so X is even more eager to do it again... then X gets their head slammed into a wall.

All of that nonsense can be eliminated if the principal has a pair and stops X back when its all trivial talk and petty bullshit attacks. Non-enforcement leads to escalation... similar to the whole stock market hijinx.

That more students don't tell when bullying occurs is probably because they know from experience the staff doesn't do a thing, even if it is in plain sight.

[SportsDino]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder, and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken. Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system. I don't think it is any magical cure but it helps some.

I second this, definitive action is the key... if you make it un-fun for the bully then they are less likely to do it. The victims can't stop it, if they do 'fight back' then the bully has their ego damaged and gets even more aggressive in their pestering (unless you totally obliterate them, but then you have to do something about the former bully who is now physically or mentally screwed up).

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.

Very true. I ran into one of my former HS teachers a couple of years ago, and your post reminded me of what she said to me at some point during that conversation: "just because some problem you faced in high school may seem insignificant now doesn't mean that it was insignificant when you experienced it then." I hope I remember that when if/when I have children someday.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think this is the key thing to remember when dealing with adolescents. I remember in junior high there was very little else that I worried about, though I suppose I thought about other things. As adults we tend to forget that, and then we belittle how kids feel about things that now seem silly to us. At that time there's little else in the world to kids other than what other kids think of them. That's only gotten worse since we were kids, as I think more and more teenagers are essentially left to their own devices by society.

There's one lesson I hope to take with me to parenting and remember first and foremost through the teenage years of my possible future children. Their social standing is the most important thing to them. It's not the only thing but it's the most important currency they have.

Once you get to your 20s and beyond, you have a pile of accomplishments, large and small (hey, I'm not President of the US or anything, but I did graduate from both high school and college so there's something and I'm married, etc) and the knowledge that, while things may not have turned out exactly as you pictured them, they did turn out and you're still here.

In middle and high school, you just don't have that. You have nothing to really measure things against either. Event X really does look like the end of the world as you haven't had to, say, take that minimum wage job to pay rent or stay up 3 straight nights to get a project done for school or work.

Not only that but you've never really "accomplished" anything either. You have come through the two aforementioned events, for better or for worse. Sure, you might have gotten some decent grades or dated a pretty girl or whatever, but so have a lot of others in your close peer group. So, in your most formative years, while you're trying to find yourself, you have nothing to fall back on to remind you that things will be ok.

Everything you "own" is really your parents so you don't have any material wealth accumulated. Maybe, if you're really shrewd, you could save up a few thousand dollars after months and months of work. But compared to the rest of the world, that doesn't get you a whole lot. A few months rent, no food, and no bills is all that adds up to. Not exactly fiscal stability.

So, at the end of the day, you have your social standing. It gets you things, it accomplishes things for you, it measures you. And a lot of people see it as a zero sum game so it's really messy- you have to break down someone to built it up for yourself. Much like most kids, I was told that stuff doesn't really matter. And, in a way, that's true. But when you're that age, it really does matter so I hope I really remember that one day.

I know I didn't really come into my own until I changed schools halfway through high school. When you're coming into a new school as an upperclassman, it's a lot easier as you don't have to worry about getting grief from below. And I was really fortunate in college to fall in with the "right crowd"- we were the rejected nerds and misfits of the world, in a way as we were the smart kids. But rather than do what a lot do, scrapping between each other to see who can get a 4 instead of a 3 on the 1-10 social scale, we just didn't care and were friends with each other. That sort of cutthroat social mentality starts to fade as you get older and maybe even a little wiser.

People think I'm crazy when I say this but I would love to go back to school as a younger person with the knowledge I have now. You have the bonus of tacking some more years onto your life with a younger body and I think life is too short as is. But, beyond that, I think I'd be able to do so much good. I think so many people would have led much better lives with just a bit more encouragement and help from peers at a time when all are trying to figure out who they are.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Very true. I ran into one of my former HS teachers a couple of years ago, and your post reminded me of what she said to me at some point during that conversation: "just because some problem you faced in high school may seem insignificant now doesn't mean that it was insignificant when you experienced it then." I hope I remember that when if/when I have children someday.

Or what you said in a lot fewer words in the time that it took me to type up my giant post

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder ...

All of this part sounds familiar so far

and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken.

Okay, I'm starting to see the difference in what you describe vs what I've seen in practice.

Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system.

Apparently so, and I've yet to see (in three schools) that last step you mention acted on with any consistency.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Lathum

EF27, not sure if you are going to visit the thread again but I would be curious to know if you think the bullying was the sole cause of her committing suicide or if there had to be other factors involved?

She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

Not sure what bubble of purity you live in but from my understanding there are a lot of 15 year old girls who act in a similar way and I don't hear stories about them hanging themselves.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Not sure what bubble of purity you live in but from my understanding there are a lot of 15 year old girls who act in a similar way and I don't hear stories about them hanging themselves.

Show me a 15-year-old girl who acts in a similar way and I'll show you a 15-year-old girl with serious issues--virtually always self-worth ones. And in the great majority of cases, I'll show you a girl who has at least considered suicide. Not saying the bullying didn't push her over the edge. It almost definitely did. But to ask if it was the "sole cause" is just stunningly naive.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

Well hell, for that matter, the specific claim (which seems to be in most of the articles I've read) about her being called "an Irish slut" seems to be difficult to prohibit without seriously infringing on the right to free speech, as truth is an absolute defense against defamation.

Most of the other allegations, such as the physical abuse & verbal threats, are readily actionable under other legal statutes but I'm not sure that one is or even should be given the alleged circumstances.

[Lathum]

Ben, the problem with what you are saying IMO is you are making a huge leap from her being promiscuous and using that as enough of a reason to kill herself after being pushed over the edge by being bullied.

I think you are simplifying it to much. If every 15 year old with self worth issues killed themselves because of being teased there would be a lot more dead 15 year old girls. I just don't see the leap you are making.

My own personal experience with suicide is there have to be a lot more factors involved and my question to EF was with those experiences in mind.

[molson]

Suicide, especially at that age, isn't a rational decision, so I don't think you can apply rational motives to it.

Many, many (probably even most) people have suicidal thoughts, for some, it goes a little further to plan, and for others, there's even an attempt. Identifying whatever seperates those people, from the people that actually complete and succeed in the deed is kind of an elusive thing, I think. Anything could have distracted her that moment and kept her alive another day. Someone else who had contemplated suicide could have gone through with it if they had one more bad day than they did.

So I don't think there's necessarily unusual "issues" or anything going on here at all. This same fact pattern probably plays out thousands of times across the country every year. And from those incidents, occasionally there's the perfect storm to create this result.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Ben, the problem with what you are saying IMO is you are making a huge leap from her being promiscuous and using that as enough of a reason to kill herself after being pushed over the edge by being bullied.

No, I am not. You are really missing it. I said:

Show me a 15-year-old girl who acts in a similar way and I'll show you a 15-year-old girl with serious issues--virtually always self-worth ones. And in the great majority of cases, I'll show you a girl who has at least considered suicide.

Being that easy at that age is an effect, not a cause. It is an effect not a few times, not sometimes, not most of the time, not nearly all the time. It is an effect *all* the time. There's something else going on here.

I think you are simplifying it to much. If every 15 year old with self worth issues killed themselves because of being teased there would be a lot more dead 15 year old girls. I just don't see the leap you are making.

Not surprising. I probably shouldn't have bothered. I'm generally too optimistic about these sorts of discussions. Probably another case of that here. *shurg*

My own personal experience with suicide is there have to be a lot more factors involved and my question to EF was with those experiences in mind.

Right. And if you re-read what I said, I'm saying that there have to be a lot more factors involved.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

The schools I've seen it implemented at, have posters everywhere, assemblies, and teachers reinforcing the idea that bullying is wrong and will not be tolerated from Kindergarden on up. It's talked about a few times a year, the posters are always there as a reminder, and most importantly if bullying is observed by the teachers, definitive action is taken. Of course, that relies on everyone to do their job properly which is an issue in any system. I don't think it is any magical cure but it helps some.

I also think its important to add that the children who exhibit anti-bullying behaviors (sharing, asking an isolated child to join their group, etc..) are systematically rewarded and praised particularly during their formative years in school. Initially pairing pro social behavior with positive reinforcement can encourage the development of more intrinsic motivation as the behaviors become ingrained and the children mature.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

I also think its important to add that the children who exhibit anti-bullying behaviors (sharing, asking an isolated child to join their group, etc..) are systematically rewarded and praised particularly during their formative years in school. Initially pairing pro social behavior with positive reinforcement can encourage the development of more intrinsic motivation as the behaviors become ingrained and the children mature.

Very good point and a very important part of a successful anti-bullying program.

[Toddzilla]

Blaming the victim seems to be popular, too.

[SportsDino]

Whether she slept with someone or not, that shouldn't be excuse for an excessive campaign of terror on her. If the school is told a student is being massively interfered with, particularly at the extreme level hinted at here, the school should do something.

A 15 year old kid, regardless of what they did, shouldn't have to figure out how to handle an entire student population taking pot shots at them. Many adults can't handle everyday levels of stress, and you are expecting high standard mental toughness from teenagers? How is it hard to believe that the LEADING contributing factor to her suicide is the repeated attacks on her by everyone in her peer group? People want to bring up 'other factors' because they either want to shift the blame or they want to understand why the statistic isn't higher... both of which are useless.

There have been enough of these cases that you would think people would put together the common trend. While many do have a grab bag of random contributing factors (chemical imbalances, quick tempers, interests in weaponry/violence, drug use, sexual problems, other abuse, extreme violent bullying in the past.... you name it) the most common trend is systematic bullying at a level that noticeably goes above the norm and some significantly disturbing catalyst event that causes a crack after its been obviously building for a long time.