O.T. Education(Parents please respond!)

Noop · 05-05-2003, 09:29 PM

Education

Value: I feel education is the most important aspect in anyone’s life. Simply because if your uneducated you ignored a issue that could be of great important to your well being.

Problems: The problem with education doesn’t lay with the teachers or students. I feel that lies squarely on the shoulders of the parent of that student. Reason is that it is the parent’s responsibility to instill in their child a strong sense of discipline and respect for there teachers, so they the students can learn what is being taught and not be distracted from their studies while a teacher deal with a misbehaved child.

Solutions: The first solution would for the parents to stop acting like it’s the school’s job to raise there child for them. While it is the school job to educate and take care of there child from the time they arrive at school till the time they leave. Teachers do not go home with the child and can’t teach them certain things that are not allowed by the school board. Such as provide advanced emotional support for their child if something is bothering them.

I would like every parent and non-parent's opinion on this issue.

noop

JonInMiddleGA · 05-05-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Simply because if your uneducated you ignored a issue that could be of great important to your well being.

Oh the irony.

Noop · 05-05-2003, 09:53 PM

Oh damn sue for trying to make a point and ask for feedback. I guess if I was Hornsmaniac,Quiksand, Marmel, Kodos or somebody i would have atleast 7-10 replies by now. Or maybe if i started a thread about eating pussy i bet alot of you would join right in huh?

JonInMiddleGA · 05-05-2003, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Oh damn sue for trying to make a point and ask for feedback.

Tissue?

ice4277 · 05-05-2003, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Oh damn sue for trying to make a point and ask for feedback. I guess if I was Hornsmaniac...i would have atleast 7-10 replies by now.

Yeah but do you really want to have those kinds of replies?

Noop · 05-05-2003, 09:57 PM

Jon aren't a grown man the hell are you acting like a lil kid for? Excuse me for actually caring about something in my life.

Senator · 05-05-2003, 09:59 PM

Quote:

The first solution would for the parents to stop acting like it’s the school’s job to raise there child for them.

BINGO!

JonInMiddleGA · 05-05-2003, 10:03 PM

Noop, take a breath.

What do you expect? A free pass on that opening sentence? C'mon, the "oldtimers" that you seem to be so jealous of would have caught seven levels of Hell for three mistakes in the opening sentence of a post about education. It didn't just ask for a rib, it freakin' begged for one. You hung a kick-me sign on your own back with the errors and, in the spirit of FOFC, I kicked you albeit pretty gently.

And then you act as though you've been done some great wrong? WTF? You didn't get snubbed for not having a member ID in single digits, you got treated the same way they would have been.

And then you whine about it?

Give me a f'n break.

FrogMan · 05-05-2003, 10:03 PM

Noop, I agree with you completely. I have a 6 year old son and we (me and the FrogWoman

) think it's our responsability to "educate" him in the good way of living with others. At school he might learn a bunch of stuff, writing, reading, maths, etc, but it's not the only place where he should be learning on how to behave in plublic and with others. We take it with pride when somebody tells us they find our son to be good mannered and respectful...

This has always been our way of seeing things, even before he was born...

FM

Noop · 05-05-2003, 10:03 PM

Senator are you really a Senator? If so I have a strong desire to be one day and who love to hear your advice. Give me a PM when you get the time thanks...

noop

Noop · 05-05-2003, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Noop, take a breath.

What do you expect? A free pass on that opening sentence? C'mon, the "oldtimers" that you seem to be so jealous of would have caught seven levels of Hell for three mistakes in the opening sentence of a post about education. It didn't just ask for a rib, it freakin' begged for one. You hung a kick-me sign on your own back with the errors and, in the spirit of FOFC, I kicked you albeit pretty gently.

And then you act as though you've been done some great wrong? WTF? You didn't get snubbed for not having a member ID in single digits, you got treated the same way they would have been.

And then you whine about it?

Give me a f'n break.

Again your trying to start something with me... what do you want a flame war? If so I don't fight on the internet I leave that for people like yourself who love to point out flaws. Bro seriously you need to stay in-line because your starting battles with someone you never met or will never meet so what's point? So why don't you give me a f'n break Jon.

JonInMiddleGA · 05-05-2003, 10:09 PM

And as for the basic premise of your post:

I think it reads like a pretty gross simplification of the issue, one that sounds as though it tries to absolve groups that (IMO) clearly share a good portion of the blame for the pathetic state of education in the U.S.

We agree on the need to instill discipline in children but unless you are looking at this in a utopian scenario where every parent handles that with their own child, then there's a lot left that has to be addressed in other ways. Utopia is rarely seen in reality, and your "solution" fails to address that completely.

JonInMiddleGA · 05-05-2003, 10:11 PM

Nope Noop, not looking for a flame war. I don't typically engage in those with children.

Noop · 05-05-2003, 10:17 PM

Jon don't you have to wake for work or something man? I've never started anything against anyone so where does your beef come from? I'm not a member of the "in crowd" so you gain nothing in trying to make look stupid. So why don't we go back to "status quo" you talk your buddies and I'll just read.

noop

Subby · 05-05-2003, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Or maybe if i started a thread about eating pussy i bet alot of you would join right in huh?

Is this a rhetorical question?

Jets80 · 05-05-2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
maybe if i started a thread about eating pussy i bet alot of you would join right in huh?

YES WE WOULD.

Ksyrup · 05-05-2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Or maybe if i started a thread about eating pussy i bet alot of you would join right in huh?

Join in on the thread or the pussy?

KWhit · 05-05-2003, 10:40 PM

I heard there was a thread discussing eating pussy. Is this it? I want in on that action.

Subby · 05-05-2003, 10:41 PM

Maybe we should start a companion poll about eating pussy...

cthomer5000 · 05-05-2003, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Or maybe if i started a thread about eating pussy i bet alot of you would join right in huh?

well, give the people what they want!

Ksyrup · 05-05-2003, 10:45 PM

Anybody got any floss?

CamEdwards · 05-05-2003, 10:49 PM

Noop,

Here are my thoughts, as a father of three and a staunch critic of public education in this country.

Parents ARE the most important factor in a child's development and education. But when a poor student is raising a child, it's kind of hard to expect them to be the champion for education that they need to be. That's why it's important to have not only teachers who care, but an educational system designed to help the learning process, not the teachers unions.

I talk with my kids every night about their homework, what they did today, what they're learning, etc. But I'm also in regular contact with their teachers. The ones that are doing a good job of educating my children get rewarded. I've taken them lunch, given them books, etc. because I want them to know they're appreciated. The bad teachers, on the other hand... they get phone calls. Lots of phone calls.

The good news is I've only had to deal with four bad teachers for two kids over the past six years. That's a pretty good track record.

Anyway, I think I digressed.

Yes, parents are important... but they can't do it alone. And unfortunately, you can't legislate good parenting. It's fine to tell parents, "hey, it's up to you"... but what do you when the parent replies "then I'll do nothing."?

Ben E Lou · 05-05-2003, 10:51 PM

Noop, at this point if you're looking for a serious discussion around your original issue (which looked like it has potential for good discussion), you probably need to re-post the original post.

panerd · 05-05-2003, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Noop,

Here are my thoughts, as a father of three and a staunch critic of public education in this country.

Parents ARE the most important factor in a child's development and education. But when a poor student is raising a child, it's kind of hard to expect them to be the champion for education that they need to be. That's why it's important to have not only teachers who care, but an educational system designed to help the learning process, not the teachers unions.

I talk with my kids every night about their homework, what they did today, what they're learning, etc. But I'm also in regular contact with their teachers. The ones that are doing a good job of educating my children get rewarded. I've taken them lunch, given them books, etc. because I want them to know they're appreciated. The bad teachers, on the other hand... they get phone calls. Lots of phone calls.

The good news is I've only had to deal with four bad teachers for two kids over the past six years. That's a pretty good track record.

Anyway, I think I digressed.

Yes, parents are important... but they can't do it alone. And unfortunately, you can't legislate good parenting. It's fine to tell parents, "hey, it's up to you"... but what do you when the parent replies "then I'll do nothing."?

Here we go Bill O' Reilly. Those damn teacher unions are preventing schools from meeting the precious state standards! Forget that some of these kids have never been read a book by their parents in their entire lives, we had better have them reading at grade level by the end of the year or their school won't get accreditation. And if a teacher union is against ignorant legislative rulings like this, they must be an enemy of your children!

Jets80 · 05-05-2003, 11:02 PM

On a serious note: There is one reason why a made it through grade school, graduated from high school and got a college degree.....because if I didnt my parents would have KICKED MY ASS!!!!!

Ben E Lou · 05-05-2003, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Noop, at this point if you're looking for a serious discussion around your original issue (which looked like it has potential for good discussion), you probably need to re-post the original post.

heh....shows what I know...While I was posting, Cam posted a good post after all....

panerd · 05-05-2003, 11:12 PM

It should be added that I am not a member of our teacher union and have some serious issues and questions with many of their ideals. However, I also don't understand how teacher unions are deemed to be the major problem of public education, when there are about 1000 other items that would be higher on my list. (Including parents who think that being the taxpayer means they can meddle if every aspect of their kid's school.) What is a more specific problem that you have with teacher unions?

JW · 05-05-2003, 11:34 PM

A few comments from a high school teacher.
First, there is plenty of blame to go around concerning the problems of public education, teacher unions, societal influences, government mandates, etc. etc.
Second, our public education system isn't really that bad overall. There are pockets of really poor education in our inner cities and poor rural areas. But overall, it isn't as bad as some people say. The proof: Looks like America is doing pretty well so far this century.
Third, the biggest problem in education -- not the only problem; the biggest problem -- is parents. Many studies show that to a large extent the first three years of life are the most important in the development of a person. If a child doesn't get what he or she needs intellectually by age three, that child is far more likely to have academic and behavior problems, no matter what happens later. Other studies reinforce this by showing, for example, that children who start school with a low vocabulary are far more likely to make bad grades, fail, have discipline problems, drop out of school, have criminal problems, have babies out of wedlock if female, than kids who have high vocabularies, regardless of race btw. You start school with a poor vocabulary based on what your parents do for you before you reach school, i.e., reading to you, etc. Further, many of the discipline problems I deal with are reflections of their parents. When a kid acts like a stupid jerk all the time, I can pretty much (but not always) count on the parent being a stupid jerk when I meet the parent.
Fourth, I think the problem of parents giving kids what they need at home is getting worse. The kids I teach seem more and more immature, unruly, and unprepared each year. Sometimes I get tired of dealing with high school students who are constantly insulting each other, trying to instigate petty arguments, arguing over "he touched me" or "he breathed on me" or "he's looking at me" or "he took my pencil." Seems they should leave that kind of stuff in elementary school and that their disruptive behavior should be much more creative (and less frequent) by high school.

Nevertheless, I continue to have some students who want to learn, want to succeed, show originality and creativity in thinking, and act like teenagers instead of fourth graders, even when acting silly.

AZSpeechCoach · 05-05-2003, 11:39 PM

As an English teacher (who can't type worth a darn

), I would love to see more parent involvement...and not only when I make "the phone call." On Parent Night, I'm lucky if I see 10 parents total. Progress reports are sent home; no response. Does everything fall on the parent? Nope. In the end, it rests on the student to do the work, turn in the assignments, and pay attention. Parents can support this process by providing an environment that makes school the top priority for students. Realistically, I have students who disappear for 2 weeks, and then return with the excuse that "we went to Mexico to see my Aunt." I have students who have 20 excused absences, because the parents rationalize their ditching. I have students who have a 25% average, because they don't see the connection between doing their work, and succeeding. I can't create that connection for them.

What can I do? I can work on skills. I can have the students write. I can try to instill a love for literature. I can provide challenges for the students who wish to be engaged, and neutralize those students who would prefer to create disruption and chaos. I'd like to do more, but our curriculum has shrunk since the start of high-stakes testing. The sum of my allowable teaching consists of a collection of 6 essays, supplemented by occasional readings from the textbook.

Will these 6 essays really teach the students everything they need to know? Who knows? But they will help the students pass the test, and that is what matters. Will they succeed in college or in the workforce? Who knows. But those students will start passing the test.

I also happen to be a member of our Association, and a campus representative. I don't presume to speak for the actions of the entire National Education Association, as I only really follow my little corner of the world. I don't have time to parse national issues; I'm busy enough. I would question those who believe that unions somehow weaken education. I would counter that by providing due process, they protect those teachers who would be wrongly persecuted by overzealous administrators. There are contracted methods for dealing with those teachers who would abuse their position or perform poorly. The administrators need to have the guts to follow those methods. I would hate to have no right to a hearing, no right to appeal undue discipline, no right to question why I carry class loads of 40 while my neighbor only has classes of 20 students. Truly, looking at most contracts, teachers have little powerother than due process. There are occasional abuses on both sides, but those are the exception rather than the rule.

A bit longwinded,
Kevin

JeeberD · 05-05-2003, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AZSpeechCoach
As an English teacher (who can't type worth a darn

Wow, very stimulating. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject...

sabotai · 05-05-2003, 11:42 PM

"Other studies reinforce this by showing, for example, that children who start school with a low vocabulary are far more likely to make bad grades, fail, have discipline problems, drop out of school, have criminal problems, have babies out of wedlock if female"

I'm assuming that the last one you meant early teen pregnancy, and not women (or men) who are "never married" single parents.

tucker342 · 05-05-2003, 11:52 PM

I think it does start with the parents, cause most of the time if you have supportive parents you're going to do better in school.

JW · 05-05-2003, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
"Other studies reinforce this by showing, for example, that children who start school with a low vocabulary are far more likely to make bad grades, fail, have discipline problems, drop out of school, have criminal problems, have babies out of wedlock if female"

I'm assuming that the last one you meant early teen pregnancy, and not women (or men) who are "never married" single parents.

Yep. I was in a hurry. Teen pregnancy. This perpetuates a vicious cycle, btw, because many of the parents sending kids to school with low vocabulary and poor social skills are teen mom dropouts who were themselves daughters of teen mom dropouts. This becomes a particular problem in high poverty areas. Some two thirds to three fourths of the kids I teach each year live with a single mom, with an aunt or grandma, or essentially alone.

JW · 05-05-2003, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeeberD
Wow, very stimulating. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject...

As an English teacher, let me say that I think he meant to say

"As an English teacher (who can't type worth a darn)"

And I agree with him. You gotta problem with that?

AZSpeechCoach · 05-06-2003, 12:09 AM

I also push newsboard buttons at the wrong time

Kevin

EagleFan · 05-06-2003, 12:28 AM

The problem is that there are too many problems.

There are too many people out there who should not be parents in the first place and don't care about their kids or think that their kids are just pawns that can be dumped off in school, little league, soccer, and anywhere else that can keep them out of their hair.

Teachers have lost their authority to discipline kids. Too many parents think that their kids are saints and will cause all sorts of hell if their kid gets in trouble. I'm not the only one on this board that remembers getting in trouble in school and knowing that was just the first part of the trouble, just wait until dad finds out.

Kids get pushed through too easily like it's an assembly line. This is related to the previous paragraph. It seems that if a kid gets kept back a year the parents are too quick to blame the school and not ask themselves if there was something that could have been done at home.

Teachers unions have created all sorts of problems. Be it strikes or the fact that once a teacher achieves tenure they can ease through their job at that point.

Unfortunately society as a whole needs fixed to really solve the problem. Throwing money at it won't work. It's just a band-aid on a broken leg.

Now on the lighter side, I found the initial post rather ironic as well. Lighten up a bit Noop, Jon was merely joking.

AZSpeechCoach · 05-06-2003, 12:54 AM

We have an administrator at our school who likes to bring teachers into his office, scream at them, curse at them, and threaten their jobs. The Principal backs him 100%. Because I am a teacher, have I given up my right to be protected from this?

Our adminstrators have attempted to mandate that we attend each sporting event, choir concert, and drama performance. I really don't like choir. I don't really like high-school football (sacrilege). Ever since I started directing plays, they're hard to watch as I re-direct them in my mind. Because I am a teacher, have I given up the right to spend time at night with my wife?

Each year, we sign a contract spelling out responsibilities and duties. In return, we are guaranteed certain rights. Because I am a teacher, have I given up the right to have that contract enforced? Can I be fired without cause, without due process?

Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they agree to be abused. Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they "deserve what they get." Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they are "lazy and ignorant." We have the same protections that my wife had when she worked as a corporate trainer. If finances are low, then I can be RIFed. If I am a poor teacher, then my evaluation can note that, and I can be terminated. If the administration does not wish to evaluate me poorly, then it is their fault that I still teach there. Who would not seek the opportunity for due process?

Kevin

Edit -- typos

Noop · 05-06-2003, 07:36 AM

I would like to thank everyone who replied to this post...also the reason I wrote was for a school debate on education. I stand by what I wrote I think parents are the most important thing in a students life. Because honestly I wouldn't be where I am headed in life if not for my parents. Even though their not together they always forget it their differences for the good of the kids. Anyway I'm giving a speech on this today at PTA.

Wish me luck guys

noop

Noop · 05-06-2003, 07:38 AM

For you guys looking for a eating pussy thread your just nasty how could you put your mouth on tha puss with all that hair on it...nasty

noop

panerd · 05-06-2003, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AZSpeechCoach
We have an administrator at our school who likes to bring teachers into his office, scream at them, curse at them, and threaten their jobs. The Principal backs him 100%. Because I am a teacher, have I given up my right to be protected from this?

Our adminstrators have attempted to mandate that we attend each sporting event, choir concert, and drama performance. I really don't like choir. I don't really like high-school football (sacrilege). Ever since I started directing plays, they're hard to watch as I re-direct them in my mind. Because I am a teacher, have I given up the right to spend time at night with my wife?

Each year, we sign a contract spelling out responsibilities and duties. In return, we are guaranteed certain rights. Because I am a teacher, have I given up the right to have that contract enforced? Can I be fired without cause, without due process?

Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they agree to be abused. Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they "deserve what they get." Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they are "lazy and ignorant." We have the same protections that my wife had when she worked as a corporate trainer. If finances are low, then I can be RIFed. If I am a poor teacher, then my evaluation can note that, and I can be terminated. If the administration does not wish to evaluate me poorly, then it is their fault that I still teach there. Who would not seek the opportunity for due process?

Kevin

Edit -- typos

Didn't you know? All our profession contains is a bunch of women and a small group of men who just couldn't cut it in the real business world.

What we need is some of the executives from Enron and Tyco to come in and fix all of our problems. Obviously, we are just blinded by teacher unions and our own stupidity. (While other professions' unions, like the UAW, have strength in numbers)

By the way, where are all these teacher strikes? I know many states (like Missouri) don't even allow their teachers to go on strike. Does anybody have a real issue with the unions, or is this just the flavor of the moment to blame all of our problems on?

Ksyrup · 05-06-2003, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jets80
On a serious note: There is one reason why a made it through grade school, graduated from high school and got a college degree.....because if I didnt my parents would have KICKED MY ASS!!!!!

Ditto. Although in my case, the implied threat of an ass kicking was the reason I did so well in school, not necessarily why I got through school. Getting through high school and graduating from college was never in doubt, it was just assumed.

I can still remember getting 4 Bs and 2 As in 6th grade, and my mom telling me that she was disappointed because she knew I was capable of more. And from that point through my high school graduation, I think I got 2 Bs total.

Shame. The ultimate motivator!

CamEdwards · 05-06-2003, 08:06 AM

panerd,

I never said that teacher unions were the biggest problem. In fact, I said quite the opposite. I said parents were the biggest problem.

But your knee jerk reaction to a single line about the system set up to benefit teachers unions instead of kids tells me all I need to know.

As a parent who's actively involved in education issues, I know a little bit about the agenda of the NEA. Like any other union, it's goals are not to benefit kids, but to benefit members. Take school vouchers. Why is the NEA against school vouchers? Bottom line: private schools typically have low union membership. More students at private schools=less teachers in public schools=less union teachers=less money for union officials.

Again, I'll say parents are the biggest problem. But to pretend that the teachers unions haven't been and aren't part of the problem is incorrect, IMO.

panerd · 05-06-2003, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
panerd,

But your knee jerk reaction to a single line about the system set up to benefit teachers unions instead of kids tells me all I need to know.

Then you had better read my second post where I state that I am not even a member of a teacher union.

CamEdwards · 05-06-2003, 08:34 AM

I'm glad I re-read your second post, as you suggested. Otherwise I would have missed this little gem.

Quote:

Originally posted by panerd
However, I also don't understand how teacher unions are deemed to be the major problem of public education, when there are about 1000 other items that would be higher on my list. (Including parents who think that being the taxpayer means they can meddle if every aspect of their kid's school.)

How dare parents think they can meddle in their kid's school simply because they're taxpayers.

Butter · 05-06-2003, 09:08 AM

Your kids go to public or private school, Cam?

CamEdwards · 05-06-2003, 09:12 AM

They go to public schools.

Butter · 05-06-2003, 09:16 AM

And you've had very few problems with any of the teachers they've had, yet still care to rip their union, which keeps them from being perhaps the most underpaid profession in the country? Is it just unions you have a problem with in general, or this particular union?

albionmoonlight · 05-06-2003, 09:36 AM

My solution (which is not perfect) is to combine end of year testing with more parental choice.

1.) Have a liberal charter school policy. Some of them will fail, but some of them will work, and those ideas will catch on.

2.) Keep the end of year and mid year tests for all of the students.

3.) Change the subject matter of the tests from year to year so that schools do not fall into the habit of teaching to the test. (A lot of the early improvement that states demonstrated when they went to end of year tests now appears to be more of a function of schools learning to teach to the test, not an actual improvement in the students. States like NC and TX that were some of the first to implement standardized tests are now finding that scores are beginning to plateau.).

4.) Do NOT use the tests to determine which schools get more or less money. Its perverse to "reward" bad schools, but it also does not make sense to throw more money at the schools that are doing fine.

5.) Instead, widely publish the results of the tests--breaking down results by race, gender, and Federal reduced price lunch status (a good proxy for SES).

6.) Allow parents, armed with this information, the freedom to choose where their kids go to school without regard to housing situation, etc. If a school has too many applicants, then a random lottery would be used to fill it up (but siblings would not have to be split up).

7.) The kicker is when I say "freedom," I mean real freedom. It would cost a LOT because there would have to be free and easy transportation provided to every student so that everyone had the freedom to send their kids to whatever school they wanted.

8.) The other kicker is that not everyone would fit into the best schools. I believe that eventually, this system would improve the quality of education all around, but in the short term, some kids will end up at the short end of the random admittance policy and their parents will raise holy heck. Anger a few rich, well- connected parents who know some people in the state legislature and the whole system crumbles. But that problem is best solved another day.

SunDancer · 05-06-2003, 09:45 AM

Are private schools that much better? Is it worth the money, both mentally (many rich kids go to private) and educationally wise.

CamEdwards · 05-06-2003, 09:53 AM

I have a problem with teachers unions in general. Not the idea of teachers unions, and not the rank and file, but the leadership of organizations like the NEA and their state affiliates.

Teachers in Oklahoma actually start out at a higher salary than the state per capita income. The state legislature passed a $3,000 a year raise back in 2000. We're still below the national average for starting teacher pay, but the fact is, 1st year teachers make more than the average Oklahoman.

That's not to say that teachers shouldn't be paid more. Of course they should. And baseball players shouldn't make $10,000,000 a year.

I'll post some of my specific problems with the NEA after I get off the air.

05-05-2003, 09:53 PM	#3
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	Oh damn sue for trying to make a point and ask for feedback. I guess if I was Hornsmaniac,Quiksand, Marmel, Kodos or somebody i would have atleast 7-10 replies by now. Or maybe if i started a thread about eating pussy i bet alot of you would join right in huh? __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

05-05-2003, 09:57 PM	#6
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	Jon aren't a grown man the hell are you acting like a lil kid for? Excuse me for actually caring about something in my life. __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater. Last edited by Noop : 05-05-2003 at 10:00 PM.

05-05-2003, 10:03 PM	#8
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Noop, take a breath. What do you expect? A free pass on that opening sentence? C'mon, the "oldtimers" that you seem to be so jealous of would have caught seven levels of Hell for three mistakes in the opening sentence of a post about education. It didn't just ask for a rib, it freakin' begged for one. You hung a kick-me sign on your own back with the errors and, in the spirit of FOFC, I kicked you albeit pretty gently. And then you act as though you've been done some great wrong? WTF? You didn't get snubbed for not having a member ID in single digits, you got treated the same way they would have been. And then you whine about it? Give me a f'n break. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

05-05-2003, 10:03 PM	#9
FrogMan Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Pintendre, Qc, Canada	Noop, I agree with you completely. I have a 6 year old son and we (me and the FrogWoman ) think it's our responsability to "educate" him in the good way of living with others. At school he might learn a bunch of stuff, writing, reading, maths, etc, but it's not the only place where he should be learning on how to behave in plublic and with others. We take it with pride when somebody tells us they find our son to be good mannered and respectful... This has always been our way of seeing things, even before he was born... FM __________________ A Black Belt is a White Belt who refused to give up... follow my story: The real life story of a running frog...

05-05-2003, 10:03 PM	#10
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	Senator are you really a Senator? If so I have a strong desire to be one day and who love to hear your advice. Give me a PM when you get the time thanks... noop __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

05-05-2003, 10:09 PM	#12
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	And as for the basic premise of your post: I think it reads like a pretty gross simplification of the issue, one that sounds as though it tries to absolve groups that (IMO) clearly share a good portion of the blame for the pathetic state of education in the U.S. We agree on the need to instill discipline in children but unless you are looking at this in a utopian scenario where every parent handles that with their own child, then there's a lot left that has to be addressed in other ways. Utopia is rarely seen in reality, and your "solution" fails to address that completely. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

05-05-2003, 10:11 PM	#13
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Nope Noop, not looking for a flame war. I don't typically engage in those with children. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

05-05-2003, 10:17 PM	#14
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	Jon don't you have to wake for work or something man? I've never started anything against anyone so where does your beef come from? I'm not a member of the "in crowd" so you gain nothing in trying to make look stupid. So why don't we go back to "status quo" you talk your buddies and I'll just read. noop __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

05-05-2003, 10:40 PM	#18
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	I heard there was a thread discussing eating pussy. Is this it? I want in on that action.

05-05-2003, 10:41 PM	#19
Subby lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: sans pants	Maybe we should start a companion poll about eating pussy... __________________ Superman was flying around and saw Wonder Woman getting a tan in the nude on her balcony. Superman said I going to hit that real fast. So he flys down toward Wonder Woman to hit it and their is a loud scream. The Invincible Man scream what just hit me in the ass!!!!! I do shit, I take pictures, I write about it: chrisshue.com

05-05-2003, 10:45 PM	#21
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Anybody got any floss? __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

05-05-2003, 10:49 PM	#22
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	Noop, Here are my thoughts, as a father of three and a staunch critic of public education in this country. Parents ARE the most important factor in a child's development and education. But when a poor student is raising a child, it's kind of hard to expect them to be the champion for education that they need to be. That's why it's important to have not only teachers who care, but an educational system designed to help the learning process, not the teachers unions. I talk with my kids every night about their homework, what they did today, what they're learning, etc. But I'm also in regular contact with their teachers. The ones that are doing a good job of educating my children get rewarded. I've taken them lunch, given them books, etc. because I want them to know they're appreciated. The bad teachers, on the other hand... they get phone calls. Lots of phone calls. The good news is I've only had to deal with four bad teachers for two kids over the past six years. That's a pretty good track record. Anyway, I think I digressed. Yes, parents are important... but they can't do it alone. And unfortunately, you can't legislate good parenting. It's fine to tell parents, "hey, it's up to you"... but what do you when the parent replies "then I'll do nothing."? __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

05-05-2003, 10:51 PM	#23
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Noop, at this point if you're looking for a serious discussion around your original issue (which looked like it has potential for good discussion), you probably need to re-post the original post. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

05-05-2003, 11:02 PM	#25
Jets80 High School Varsity Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC	On a serious note: There is one reason why a made it through grade school, graduated from high school and got a college degree.....because if I didnt my parents would have KICKED MY ASS!!!!!

05-05-2003, 11:12 PM	#27
panerd Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis	It should be added that I am not a member of our teacher union and have some serious issues and questions with many of their ideals. However, I also don't understand how teacher unions are deemed to be the major problem of public education, when there are about 1000 other items that would be higher on my list. (Including parents who think that being the taxpayer means they can meddle if every aspect of their kid's school.) What is a more specific problem that you have with teacher unions? Last edited by panerd : 05-05-2003 at 11:12 PM.

05-05-2003, 11:34 PM	#28
JW College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Monroe, LA, USA	A few comments from a high school teacher. First, there is plenty of blame to go around concerning the problems of public education, teacher unions, societal influences, government mandates, etc. etc. Second, our public education system isn't really that bad overall. There are pockets of really poor education in our inner cities and poor rural areas. But overall, it isn't as bad as some people say. The proof: Looks like America is doing pretty well so far this century. Third, the biggest problem in education -- not the only problem; the biggest problem -- is parents. Many studies show that to a large extent the first three years of life are the most important in the development of a person. If a child doesn't get what he or she needs intellectually by age three, that child is far more likely to have academic and behavior problems, no matter what happens later. Other studies reinforce this by showing, for example, that children who start school with a low vocabulary are far more likely to make bad grades, fail, have discipline problems, drop out of school, have criminal problems, have babies out of wedlock if female, than kids who have high vocabularies, regardless of race btw. You start school with a poor vocabulary based on what your parents do for you before you reach school, i.e., reading to you, etc. Further, many of the discipline problems I deal with are reflections of their parents. When a kid acts like a stupid jerk all the time, I can pretty much (but not always) count on the parent being a stupid jerk when I meet the parent. Fourth, I think the problem of parents giving kids what they need at home is getting worse. The kids I teach seem more and more immature, unruly, and unprepared each year. Sometimes I get tired of dealing with high school students who are constantly insulting each other, trying to instigate petty arguments, arguing over "he touched me" or "he breathed on me" or "he's looking at me" or "he took my pencil." Seems they should leave that kind of stuff in elementary school and that their disruptive behavior should be much more creative (and less frequent) by high school. Nevertheless, I continue to have some students who want to learn, want to succeed, show originality and creativity in thinking, and act like teenagers instead of fourth graders, even when acting silly.

05-05-2003, 11:39 PM	#29
AZSpeechCoach College Prospect Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Phoenix	As an English teacher (who can't type worth a darn ), I would love to see more parent involvement...and not only when I make "the phone call." On Parent Night, I'm lucky if I see 10 parents total. Progress reports are sent home; no response. Does everything fall on the parent? Nope. In the end, it rests on the student to do the work, turn in the assignments, and pay attention. Parents can support this process by providing an environment that makes school the top priority for students. Realistically, I have students who disappear for 2 weeks, and then return with the excuse that "we went to Mexico to see my Aunt." I have students who have 20 excused absences, because the parents rationalize their ditching. I have students who have a 25% average, because they don't see the connection between doing their work, and succeeding. I can't create that connection for them. What can I do? I can work on skills. I can have the students write. I can try to instill a love for literature. I can provide challenges for the students who wish to be engaged, and neutralize those students who would prefer to create disruption and chaos. I'd like to do more, but our curriculum has shrunk since the start of high-stakes testing. The sum of my allowable teaching consists of a collection of 6 essays, supplemented by occasional readings from the textbook. Will these 6 essays really teach the students everything they need to know? Who knows? But they will help the students pass the test, and that is what matters. Will they succeed in college or in the workforce? Who knows. But those students will start passing the test. I also happen to be a member of our Association, and a campus representative. I don't presume to speak for the actions of the entire National Education Association, as I only really follow my little corner of the world. I don't have time to parse national issues; I'm busy enough. I would question those who believe that unions somehow weaken education. I would counter that by providing due process, they protect those teachers who would be wrongly persecuted by overzealous administrators. There are contracted methods for dealing with those teachers who would abuse their position or perform poorly. The administrators need to have the guts to follow those methods. I would hate to have no right to a hearing, no right to appeal undue discipline, no right to question why I carry class loads of 40 while my neighbor only has classes of 20 students. Truly, looking at most contracts, teachers have little powerother than due process. There are occasional abuses on both sides, but those are the exception rather than the rule. A bit longwinded, Kevin __________________ The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they'll be when you kill them! Visit Stewart the Wonderbear and his amazing travels http://wonderbeartravel.blogspot.com Last edited by AZSpeechCoach : 05-06-2003 at 12:05 AM.

05-05-2003, 11:42 PM	#31
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	"Other studies reinforce this by showing, for example, that children who start school with a low vocabulary are far more likely to make bad grades, fail, have discipline problems, drop out of school, have criminal problems, have babies out of wedlock if female" I'm assuming that the last one you meant early teen pregnancy, and not women (or men) who are "never married" single parents. Last edited by sabotai : 05-05-2003 at 11:43 PM.

05-05-2003, 11:52 PM	#32
tucker342 Pro Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Iowa City, IA	I think it does start with the parents, cause most of the time if you have supportive parents you're going to do better in school.

05-06-2003, 12:09 AM	#35
AZSpeechCoach College Prospect Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Phoenix	I also push newsboard buttons at the wrong time Kevin __________________ The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they'll be when you kill them! Visit Stewart the Wonderbear and his amazing travels http://wonderbeartravel.blogspot.com

05-06-2003, 12:28 AM	#36
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	The problem is that there are too many problems. There are too many people out there who should not be parents in the first place and don't care about their kids or think that their kids are just pawns that can be dumped off in school, little league, soccer, and anywhere else that can keep them out of their hair. Teachers have lost their authority to discipline kids. Too many parents think that their kids are saints and will cause all sorts of hell if their kid gets in trouble. I'm not the only one on this board that remembers getting in trouble in school and knowing that was just the first part of the trouble, just wait until dad finds out. Kids get pushed through too easily like it's an assembly line. This is related to the previous paragraph. It seems that if a kid gets kept back a year the parents are too quick to blame the school and not ask themselves if there was something that could have been done at home. Teachers unions have created all sorts of problems. Be it strikes or the fact that once a teacher achieves tenure they can ease through their job at that point. Unfortunately society as a whole needs fixed to really solve the problem. Throwing money at it won't work. It's just a band-aid on a broken leg. Now on the lighter side, I found the initial post rather ironic as well. Lighten up a bit Noop, Jon was merely joking. __________________ The EagleFan YouTube Channel - Reactions Soarin' & Scratchin' YouTube Channel - We react to music, videos, TV, we talk, we are planning some field trips Soarin' & Soothin' - Meditation, Relaxation, and Sleep Aid; mental health is important

05-06-2003, 12:54 AM	#37
AZSpeechCoach College Prospect Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Phoenix	We have an administrator at our school who likes to bring teachers into his office, scream at them, curse at them, and threaten their jobs. The Principal backs him 100%. Because I am a teacher, have I given up my right to be protected from this? Our adminstrators have attempted to mandate that we attend each sporting event, choir concert, and drama performance. I really don't like choir. I don't really like high-school football (sacrilege). Ever since I started directing plays, they're hard to watch as I re-direct them in my mind. Because I am a teacher, have I given up the right to spend time at night with my wife? Each year, we sign a contract spelling out responsibilities and duties. In return, we are guaranteed certain rights. Because I am a teacher, have I given up the right to have that contract enforced? Can I be fired without cause, without due process? Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they agree to be abused. Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they "deserve what they get." Just because people choose to become teachers does not mean that they are "lazy and ignorant." We have the same protections that my wife had when she worked as a corporate trainer. If finances are low, then I can be RIFed. If I am a poor teacher, then my evaluation can note that, and I can be terminated. If the administration does not wish to evaluate me poorly, then it is their fault that I still teach there. Who would not seek the opportunity for due process? Kevin Edit -- typos __________________ The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they'll be when you kill them! Visit Stewart the Wonderbear and his amazing travels http://wonderbeartravel.blogspot.com Last edited by AZSpeechCoach : 05-06-2003 at 12:57 AM.

05-06-2003, 07:36 AM	#38
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	I would like to thank everyone who replied to this post...also the reason I wrote was for a school debate on education. I stand by what I wrote I think parents are the most important thing in a students life. Because honestly I wouldn't be where I am headed in life if not for my parents. Even though their not together they always forget it their differences for the good of the kids. Anyway I'm giving a speech on this today at PTA. Wish me luck guys noop __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

05-06-2003, 07:38 AM	#39
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	For you guys looking for a eating pussy thread your just nasty how could you put your mouth on tha puss with all that hair on it...nasty noop __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

05-06-2003, 08:06 AM	#42
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	panerd, I never said that teacher unions were the biggest problem. In fact, I said quite the opposite. I said parents were the biggest problem. But your knee jerk reaction to a single line about the system set up to benefit teachers unions instead of kids tells me all I need to know. As a parent who's actively involved in education issues, I know a little bit about the agenda of the NEA. Like any other union, it's goals are not to benefit kids, but to benefit members. Take school vouchers. Why is the NEA against school vouchers? Bottom line: private schools typically have low union membership. More students at private schools=less teachers in public schools=less union teachers=less money for union officials. Again, I'll say parents are the biggest problem. But to pretend that the teachers unions haven't been and aren't part of the problem is incorrect, IMO. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

05-06-2003, 09:08 AM	#45
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Your kids go to public or private school, Cam? __________________ My listening habits

05-06-2003, 09:12 AM	#46
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	They go to public schools. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

05-06-2003, 09:16 AM	#47
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	And you've had very few problems with any of the teachers they've had, yet still care to rip their union, which keeps them from being perhaps the most underpaid profession in the country? Is it just unions you have a problem with in general, or this particular union? __________________ My listening habits

05-06-2003, 09:36 AM	#48
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	My solution (which is not perfect) is to combine end of year testing with more parental choice. 1.) Have a liberal charter school policy. Some of them will fail, but some of them will work, and those ideas will catch on. 2.) Keep the end of year and mid year tests for all of the students. 3.) Change the subject matter of the tests from year to year so that schools do not fall into the habit of teaching to the test. (A lot of the early improvement that states demonstrated when they went to end of year tests now appears to be more of a function of schools learning to teach to the test, not an actual improvement in the students. States like NC and TX that were some of the first to implement standardized tests are now finding that scores are beginning to plateau.). 4.) Do NOT use the tests to determine which schools get more or less money. Its perverse to "reward" bad schools, but it also does not make sense to throw more money at the schools that are doing fine. 5.) Instead, widely publish the results of the tests--breaking down results by race, gender, and Federal reduced price lunch status (a good proxy for SES). 6.) Allow parents, armed with this information, the freedom to choose where their kids go to school without regard to housing situation, etc. If a school has too many applicants, then a random lottery would be used to fill it up (but siblings would not have to be split up). 7.) The kicker is when I say "freedom," I mean real freedom. It would cost a LOT because there would have to be free and easy transportation provided to every student so that everyone had the freedom to send their kids to whatever school they wanted. 8.) The other kicker is that not everyone would fit into the best schools. I believe that eventually, this system would improve the quality of education all around, but in the short term, some kids will end up at the short end of the random admittance policy and their parents will raise holy heck. Anger a few rich, well- connected parents who know some people in the state legislature and the whole system crumbles. But that problem is best solved another day.

05-06-2003, 09:45 AM	#49
SunDancer College Benchwarmer Join Date: Sep 2002	Are private schools that much better? Is it worth the money, both mentally (many rich kids go to private) and educationally wise.

05-06-2003, 09:53 AM	#50
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	I have a problem with teachers unions in general. Not the idea of teachers unions, and not the rank and file, but the leadership of organizations like the NEA and their state affiliates. Teachers in Oklahoma actually start out at a higher salary than the state per capita income. The state legislature passed a $3,000 a year raise back in 2000. We're still below the national average for starting teacher pay, but the fact is, 1st year teachers make more than the average Oklahoman. That's not to say that teachers shouldn't be paid more. Of course they should. And baseball players shouldn't make $10,000,000 a year. I'll post some of my specific problems with the NEA after I get off the air. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

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