The Trump Presidency – 2016

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which is why you haven't heard me bitch about that stuff.

Every nation acts in their own best interest, not particularly more or less than we do historically.

‘Best interest’ is in the eye of the beholder. You and I have wildly different views of what is in our best interests. Am I wrong in saying that you believe Russia’s meddling was in both of our best interests? Of course you wouldn’t bitch about that. But if we did our damndest to get rid of Netanyahu in Israel, you might not feel the same.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by lungs

I’m not sure I get the question.

I am opposed to meddling in the internal politics of other countries because quite frankly, we do not have a very good history in that regard and it has a direct correlation to troubled spots we deal with today.

We supported the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, which gave us the Shah. Which in turn gave us the Revolution in 1979 and our current enmity with Iran.

Our support of corrupt Cuban military governments gave us Castro. And the pattern repeats over and over in Latin America.

Supporting the overthrow of Ghadaffi in Libya and Assad in Syria has done nothing but give more power to Islamists.

We needed a do over in Egypt after we realized we didn’t really like the results of their free elections.

Point being, I can’t think of any meddling we have been a part of in other country’s internal politics that has been a long term positive for us.

And if we are going to bitch about Russia meddling with our elections, we really ought to have a leg to stand on. And we don’t. Not even close.

My question was to understand if there is any situation where the US has "meddled" (your terminology) or tried to influence (my terminology) in a foreign government or opposition leader that you believe was justified.

I took your original comment as pretty much we shouldn't get involved in any other country's business. I think you have confirmed that in this response.

You are right that the US has "meddled/influenced" in other countries and has not turned out well. Where you and I disagree is there are other countries where we have "meddled/influenced" that has turned out positive for the US.

Here are some examples I'm thinking of that turned out more positive for the US than negative

1) Israel - since I guess its founding till now
2) Germany - couple decades (?) after WW2
3) Japan - couple decades (?) after WW2
4) South Korea - couple decades (?) after Korean War
5) Philippines
6) Kuwait
7) Bosnia
8) Taiwan

If the US does not try to meddle/influence to try achieve our goals/preferred government, the alternative is just to let things play out for good or bad to the US?

[Edward64]

Struggled to put this here or in the Fallout 76 thread ...

I was playing FO76 early evening and saw a CAMP build that had MAGA in neon lights. I can see more political "ads" in FO76 we get closer to November.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

My question was to understand if there is any situation where the US has "meddled" (your terminology) or tried to influence (my terminology) in a foreign government or opposition leader that you believe was justified.

I took your original comment as pretty much we shouldn't get involved in any other country's business. I think you have confirmed that in this response.

You are right that the US has "meddled/influenced" in other countries and has not turned out well. Where you and I disagree is there are other countries where we have "meddled/influenced" that has turned out positive for the US.

Here are some examples I'm thinking of that turned out more positive for the US than negative

1) Israel - since I guess its founding till now
2) Germany - couple decades (?) after WW2
3) Japan - couple decades (?) after WW2
4) South Korea - couple decades (?) after Korean War
5) Philippines
6) Kuwait
7) Bosnia
8) Taiwan

If the US does not try to meddle/influence to try achieve our goals/preferred government, the alternative is just to let things play out for good or bad to the US?

I will borrow a line I like from Dan Carlin. I want America to live up to its marketing materials in terms of promoting our ideology across the world.
Most of your examples above do not meet that criteria. Israel is an apartheid state. South Korea had a pretty brutal dictatorship under Park and didn’t really have free elections until 1997. Ferdinand Marcos was hardly a beacon of American values in the Philippines. Kuwait is nobody’s example of a beacon of democracy (though better than most other Arab countries). Taiwan was under martial law from 1949-1987. Bosnia is a failed state.

I wouldn’t disagree that in terms of economic relationships, the countries on your list had positive results. But in terms of exporting the values we are supposedly promoting, your examples fall short. I am admittedly taking a more idealistic approach as I believe our long term interests are served by promoting those values rather than short term economic/geopolitical interests.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

‘Best interest’ is in the eye of the beholder. You and I have wildly different views of what is in our best interests. Am I wrong in saying that you believe Russia’s meddling was in both of our best interests? Of course you wouldn’t bitch about that. But if we did our damndest to get rid of Netanyahu in Israel, you might not feel the same.

No no, in this case I was strictly saying I can't get legitimately mad at Russia for acting in their own best interest, nor the Syrians, nor the Iraqis, nor anybody else, since we've historically done the same thing.

That doesn't mean that I'm not inclined to punish them when their best interest & our best interest come into conflict ... just that them doing so intrinsically so to speak doesn't rile me. They're just doing the same thing(s) we've done for most of our existence.

I'm not bothered by the concept of them doing it any more than I'm bothered by the concept of us doing it.

That's what nations do.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No no, in this case I was strictly saying I can't get legitimately mad at Russia for acting in their own best interest, nor the Syrians, nor the Iraqis, nor anybody else, since we've historically done the same thing.

That doesn't mean that I'm not inclined to punish them when their best interest & our best interest come into conflict ... just that them doing so intrinsically so to speak doesn't rile me. They're just doing the same thing(s) we've done for most of our existence.

I'm not bothered by the concept of them doing it any more than I'm bothered by the concept of us doing it.

That's what nations do.

Makes sense. As an aside, your second paragraph reminded me of the line Trump used about John Bolton that if he had listened to him we would be on World War 6 by now. I thought if you had your druthers we would be on World War 10. But after further reflection, I’m not sure there would be much left to fight over after your World War 3.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

Makes sense.

Whew. Cause when I posted my original comment, so help me I thought I was agreeing with / echoing/ reinforcing what you'd said in the post I replied to.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Whew. Cause when I posted my original comment, so help me I thought I was agreeing with / echoing/ reinforcing what you'd said in the post I replied to.

Yep, I get that now. The ‘best interest’ line made me jump into areas where we likely wouldn’t find you reinforcing anything I’d say.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I was playing FO76 early evening and saw a CAMP build that had MAGA in neon lights. I can see more political "ads" in FO76 we get closer to November.

Pretty sure that MAGA is the most common clan tag in MW.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

The Pelosi paper rip becomes a massive meme within 24 hours.

It also takes over (part of) the narrative. Trump's speech was riddled with lies and inconsistencies, but few people read the fact checkers the next day. Pelosi did an immediate fact check .

Also the Republicans have hated Pelosi for a long time anyways, so she's fine taking their vitriol.

[JediKooter]

Simpletons and members of Cult 45 are the only ones that would think he made a great, fact saturated speech last night and Nancy ripping that thing up was a great way of saying that his speech was nothing more than a liner for the bottom of a bird cage.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by lungs

I will borrow a line I like from Dan Carlin. I want America to live up to its marketing materials in terms of promoting our ideology across the world.
Most of your examples above do not meet that criteria. Israel is an apartheid state. South Korea had a pretty brutal dictatorship under Park and didn’t really have free elections until 1997. Ferdinand Marcos was hardly a beacon of American values in the Philippines. Kuwait is nobody’s example of a beacon of democracy (though better than most other Arab countries). Taiwan was under martial law from 1949-1987. Bosnia is a failed state.

I wouldn’t disagree that in terms of economic relationships, the countries on your list had positive results. But in terms of exporting the values we are supposedly promoting, your examples fall short. I am admittedly taking a more idealistic approach as I believe our long term interests are served by promoting those values rather than short term economic/geopolitical interests.

I do think its too idealistic in wanting countries that we have meddled/influenced to match up with our marketing materials. If that is the criteria, then I concede I can't think of one (maybe Canada but I don't think we meddled/influenced too much there).

To me, it's sufficient that those countries have turned out well, generally friendly to the US, and have benefited much from our meddling/influencing.

Your other counter that each one of these have had some issues from our meddling/influencing is true but honestly what countries haven't had some "darkness" in their past. Judged by current day "how is it going" it has worked out pretty well.

Bottom line - I get your point about not meddling. But do disagree as I think the US needs to meddle/influence selectively to try sway a country/government to our side e.g. not just in our republic/democratic ideals, but also as a strategic economic, military partner and for humanitarian reasons (Somalia, Bosnia).

But yeah, we don't have fantastic track record. Some good success IMO but also some failures.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Pretty sure that MAGA is the most common clan tag in MW.

Assume MW is Modern Warfare? Haven't played it.

I chuckled when I saw the MAGA neon sign. I thought maybe "Feel the Bern" for my CAMP build but I'm not that big on Bernie. Had to look up Biden's which I think is "No Malarkey". Also considered MATH from Yang.

Just didn't think any of them matched up to semi-worldwide recognition of MAGA.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Simpletons and members of Cult 45 are the only ones that would think he made a great, fact saturated speech last night and Nancy ripping that thing up was a great way of saying that his speech was nothing more than a liner for the bottom of a bird cage.

It was entirely without class, and a petty bitch move for a Speaker of the House.

Granted, Trump has no class either, but it'd be nice for maybe one person in DC to take a high road. (Wishful thinking, I know)

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

It was entirely without class, and a petty bitch move for a Speaker of the House.

Granted, Trump has no class either, but it'd be nice for maybe one person in DC to take a high road. (Wishful thinking, I know)

Completely disagree. It's things like ripping up his speech, are the things that need to be done. I would love to see more acts of defiance against the criminal that currently occupies the White House and his criminal organization that is protecting him.

The Dems have tried taking the high road, they've tried doing the right thing, they've tried doing things 'by the book' and it hasn't worked. So if she rips up that festering speech of his, I'm more than 100% ok with that. I would have been more in favor if all of the Democrats from the House and Senate didn't even show up for it, but, I'll take some ripped up paper for now. The thing is, playing nice and trying to compromise, does not work in the current time line we are in.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Completely disagree. It's things like ripping up his speech, are the things that need to be done. I would love to see more acts of defiance against the criminal that currently occupies the White House and his criminal organization that is protecting him.

The Dems have tried taking the high road, they've tried doing the right thing, they've tried doing things 'by the book' and it hasn't worked. So if she rips up that festering speech of his, I'm more than 100% ok with that. I would have been more in favor if all of the Democrats from the House and Senate didn't even show up for it, but, I'll take some ripped up paper for now. The thing is, playing nice and trying to compromise, does not work in the current time line we are in.

It seems like the Republicans do politics and crimes, and the Democrats do symbolism and zinger tweets in response. I don't think those are effective acts of defiance.

[JPhillips]

I can't decide whether it was stupid or genius. It has dominated the media rather than any moments from the speech. In that sense, she basically did what Trump does with his tweets.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

It seems like the Republicans do politics and crimes, and the Democrats do symbolism and zinger tweets in response. I don't think those are effective acts of defiance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some dems that like some of that crime too and if they get caught, nail them to the wall just as hard as the republicans. However, zingers and symbolism is pretty much all they've got at the moment since they've tried just about everything else. I honestly don't know what else they can do to hold the criminal in the white house and his protectors accountable. Unfortunately, our laws and Constitution don't appear to be robust enough to handle the situation we are currently in to let the democrats hold him and his conspirators accountable.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I can't decide whether it was stupid or genius. It has dominated the media rather than any moments from the speech. In that sense, she basically did what Trump does with his tweets.

This is me, too. I probably lean more towards the former, but *shrug* it's gone viral and dominated the news, like you say.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Completely disagree. It's things like ripping up his speech, are the things that need to be done.

I'll take some ripped up paper for now. The thing is, playing nice and trying to compromise, does not work in the current time line we are in.

I do disagree with much that you said but do agree with the 2 quotes. I think it was great.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

It seems like the Republicans do politics and crimes, and the Democrats do symbolism and zinger tweets in response. I don't think those are effective acts of defiance.

Republicans do plenty of symbolism as well (probably even more so than the Democrats). It's just that the Republicans are better at putting their symbolism to work, while Democrats find the desire to apologize for their symbolism too much.

People on the right just seem to get mad when Democrats don't apologize for their symbolism… you know like Republicans don't.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I do disagree with much that you said but do agree with the 2 quotes. I think it was great.

I have a serious case of trumtigue and at this point, any act of defiance against him will get complete support from me (unless it is violence).

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I honestly don't know what else they can do to hold the criminal in the white house and his protectors accountable.

Well...

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Simpletons and members of Cult 45 are the only ones that would think he made a great, fact saturated speech last night.

This is exactly why nothing is coming from this. You, like many others now, feel the need to insult literally everyone who doesn't share your viewpoint and that's the message we get from the top down of each party in DC. It is one side vs the other - anything else be damned. There's no room for a moderate person anymore and quotes like yours prove that. It's the "if you don't agree with me you're a simpleton, cult member, idiot, racist, communist, snowflake, insert your insult here" mentality.

That's why one side is dumbfounded he's not getting removed and the other side thinks the entire thing has been a sham from the start and anyone who tries to walk anywhere in-between gets lambasted as a traitor against their party.

What Pelosi did last night shouldn't be surprising in the least - did you watch the speech? She behaved like a spoiled child all night. Pelosi didn't even stand up for the little girl who was getting the opportunity to go to another school. She can hate Trump all she wants but what did that girl ever do or the other guests (outside of Rush obv). This is the state of things now - all that matters is the slight appearance that you are aligned with the enemy and you must be a terrible human being.

I applaud the Democrats who did stand up and applaud for either those guests or the things in the speech which were factual. The decline in drug overdose deaths, the removal of unspeakably evil men from this planet, the low unemployment rates for everyone especially women and minorities - those are things that if you cheer for and support you are a simpleton and a cult member? It just proves that there's no room to be someone who can take each thing and look at it as good or bad - the choice is all or none so nobody should have been surprised at any of this from start to finish.

[spleen1015]

It is all the same partisan BS.

The folks saying she lacks class, etc. are the same folks who think Trump's daily twitter tantrums are awesome.

[Kodos]

Is this the biggest rip up since Sinéad O'Connor ripped up the Pope?

[spleen1015]

@Gary

This has been the problem with politics for as long as I have tried to pay attention. People have been calling the other side names for as long as I can remember.

I think Trump made it worse. He threw out the book on political appropriateness. He says and does whatever he wants.

Elected officials are only worried about 1 thing. Getting elected and maintaining their power. They will do whatever it takes to do that.

They don't give a shit about you and me unless we have the potential to vote for them.

[albionmoonlight]

Trump is the first President in US History to have a senator from his own party vote to convict him in an impeachment proceeding.

[Edward64]

Good for you Romney. A little "too little, too late" but still better than nothing.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-ne...rial-02-05-20/

Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy told reporters that he was emotional in the chamber as he listened to Republican Sen. Mitt Romney say he will vote to convict President Trump.

Murphy’s voice was shaking as he told reporters, “I was choked up listening to him speak.”

He said it was the “toughest thing in the world” to stand up to his party and donors.

Murphy said that history would remember Romney kindly.

Hawaii Sen. Brian Schatz took to Twitter to champion Romney.

"Thank you, Mitt. You have restored my faith in the Senate and the idea that putting country over party is still possible," the Democratic senator said.

Just moments ago: Romney, a Republican from Utah, said what Trump did “was a flagrant assault on our electoral rights, our national security, and our fundamental values."

"Corrupting an election to keep oneself in office is perhaps the most abusive and destructive violation of one's oath of office that I can imagine," he added.

[RainMaker]

Rush Limbaugh Admits Presidential Medal Of Freedom Less Of An Honor Knowing That Rosa Parks, Maya Angelou Also Received It

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Rush Limbaugh Admits Presidential Medal Of Freedom Less Of An Honor Knowing That Rosa Parks, Maya Angelou Also Received It

I didn't even know The Onion still existed.

[Thomkal]

Had to check to make sure that was a post from The Onion, RM


As for Romney, CPAC the political "converntion" for Conservatives had already made a point of "uninviting" Romney, so I guess they knew he was going to do this. Maybe he can rally his old presidential base and Mormons to not vote for Trump in 2020.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

It is all the same partisan BS.

The folks saying she lacks class, etc. are the same folks who think Trump's daily twitter tantrums are awesome.

And vice versa

[albionmoonlight]

Buzz is that the White House had no idea the Romney vote was coming.

The Dems won't do this because they suck at politics, but they should immediately replace the phrase "impeachment" with "bipartisan impeachment" whenever they use it.

It's a little thing, but it is costless.

[Thomkal]

I agree Albion-make sure they get the "bipartisan impeachment" into every conversation/campaign ad they can

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Good for you Romney. A little "too little, too late" but still better than nothing.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-ne...rial-02-05-20/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/u...ict-trump.html

When asked Wednesday morning if he had any special flourishes planned for his speech, Mr. Romney just shrugged. “I’m planning on tearing it up when I’m finished,” he quipped, a reference to Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s response to the President’s State of the Union address Tuesday night.

This made me laugh.

[ISiddiqui]

Remember when the Republican Party nominated that man for the Presidency. Seems like an eon ago.

[Kodos]

Somewhere, John McCain is tipping his cap to Romney.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Well...



This is exactly why nothing is coming from this. You, like many others now, feel the need to insult literally everyone who doesn't share your viewpoint and that's the message we get from the top down of each party in DC. It is one side vs the other - anything else be damned. There's no room for a moderate person anymore and quotes like yours prove that. It's the "if you don't agree with me you're a simpleton, cult member, idiot, racist, communist, snowflake, insert your insult here" mentality.

That's why one side is dumbfounded he's not getting removed and the other side thinks the entire thing has been a sham from the start and anyone who tries to walk anywhere in-between gets lambasted as a traitor against their party.

What Pelosi did last night shouldn't be surprising in the least - did you watch the speech? She behaved like a spoiled child all night. Pelosi didn't even stand up for the little girl who was getting the opportunity to go to another school. She can hate Trump all she wants but what did that girl ever do or the other guests (outside of Rush obv). This is the state of things now - all that matters is the slight appearance that you are aligned with the enemy and you must be a terrible human being.

I applaud the Democrats who did stand up and applaud for either those guests or the things in the speech which were factual. The decline in drug overdose deaths, the removal of unspeakably evil men from this planet, the low unemployment rates for everyone especially women and minorities - those are things that if you cheer for and support you are a simpleton and a cult member? It just proves that there's no room to be someone who can take each thing and look at it as good or bad - the choice is all or none so nobody should have been surprised at any of this from start to finish.

I don't know what to tell you man. Stuff like this is what happens when frustrations boil over. The repubs and their supporters give the appearance of this just being a game of owning the libs and the rest of us (including most of the rest of the world) are pretty much thrown our arms up because it is so obvious that he is empirically and objectively a criminal. Why would anyone even support that or go, "Now hold on a minute, he did this thing that was good". Yup and a broken clock is right twice a day. Lots of bad people have done good things, that doesn't excuse them and should not give anyone pause and reconsider whether or not they are a bad person. Because regardless of their good deeds, they are still an extremely bad person (like trump). Hell, Kasich would have made a way better president than trump and with a lot less criminal activity I bet too.

I can say this though, I never felt this way with Bush or his supporters, even when he wasn't the best of orators. Lots of eye rolling though, sure. I did not approve of a lot of things he and his administration did, but, never once felt like I was having to deal with Cartman from South Park or an honest to goodness bonafide criminal.

Yea, Pelosi didn't stand up for the girl. You know what? The impeached president obstructed justice, abused the position of his office, things that are way more in the realm of 'bad things', than Pelosi not standing up. But, nope, lets whine about 'Nasty Nancy' instead. To complain about what she did, really looks more like tone trolling than anything else when compared to trump's malfeasances.

It's not that you (the ubiquitous you) are not welcome, supporting the vile criminal that is trump is what's not welcome, when it is blatantly obvious he is a vile criminal. I don't know what else to tell you man in that regard. What I can tell you, I'm going to continue to be as disrespectful and defiant as I possibly can towards trump until trump is out of office and can do no further damage.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Rush Limbaugh Admits Presidential Medal Of Freedom Less Of An Honor Knowing That Rosa Parks, Maya Angelou Also Received It

I'll give RM the benefit of the doubt that he was aware this is an Onion piece.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'll give RM the benefit of the doubt that he was aware this is an Onion piece.

Yes

[RainMaker]

I like how Rand Paul went from "big government is bad to we need to protect big government at all costs" in a couple years.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I don't know what to tell you man. Stuff like this is what happens when frustrations boil over. The repubs and their supporters give the appearance of this just being a game of owning the libs and the rest of us (including most of the rest of the world) are pretty much thrown our arms up because it is so obvious that he is empirically and objectively a criminal. Why would anyone even support that or go, "Now hold on a minute, he did this thing that was good". Yup and a broken clock is right twice a day. Lots of bad people have done good things, that doesn't excuse them and should not give anyone pause and reconsider whether or not they are a bad person. Because regardless of their good deeds, they are still an extremely bad person (like trump). Hell, Kasich would have made a way better president than trump and with a lot less criminal activity I bet too.

I can say this though, I never felt this way with Bush or his supporters, even when he wasn't the best of orators. Lots of eye rolling though, sure. I did not approve of a lot of things he and his administration did, but, never once felt like I was having to deal with Cartman from South Park or an honest to goodness bonafide criminal.

Yea, Pelosi didn't stand up for the girl. You know what? The impeached president obstructed justice, abused the position of his office, things that are way more in the realm of 'bad things', than Pelosi not standing up. But, nope, lets whine about 'Nasty Nancy' instead. To complain about what she did, really looks more like tone trolling than anything else when compared to trump's malfeasances.

It's not that you (the ubiquitous you) are not welcome, supporting the vile criminal that is trump is what's not welcome, when it is blatantly obvious he is a vile criminal. I don't know what else to tell you man in that regard. What I can tell you, I'm going to continue to be as disrespectful and defiant as I possibly can towards trump until trump is out of office and can do no further damage.

I think it's best we call a spade a spade.

Trump has done many terrible and tasteless things.

Pelosi's behavior with respect to the guests is also reprehensible.

Her speech tearing moment I'm much more ambivalent about. I don't really care about showing respect to this President. He shows little respect for the office himself, why should anyone else? But it's also pretty grandstandy, one part fake ploy, other part well done politicizing in a social media world.

I think it's fair to criticize both for their behaviors. I would love to hear how one (either side) justifies supporting one while ripping the other (pun intended).

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

but, never once felt like I was having to deal with Cartman from South Park

HEY!

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I think it's best we call a spade a spade.

Trump has done many terrible and tasteless things.

Pelosi's behavior with respect to the guests is also reprehensible.

Her speech tearing moment I'm much more ambivalent about. I don't really care about showing respect to this President. He shows little respect for the office himself, why should anyone else? But it's also pretty grandstandy, one part fake ploy, other part well done politicizing in a social media world.

This is me, except for the last paragraph. I'm a little stronger on Pelosi's tearing up the speech. It's not about respect for the President, but respect for your own office and his. It's not respect for Trump, but the institutions you're trying to uphold.

[RainMaker]

Pelosi is a moron who does these little stunts for attention. It's dumb and doesn't help her or her party.


I'm not sure why people think there needs to be some decorum and respect shown. He has said he doesn't believe her or her party are real Americans. He has relentlessly targeted them to make their lives worse. He's a white supremacist running child concentration camps at the border.



If you're really upset about her tearing up a piece of paper, you're just virtue signaling.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

This is me, except for the last paragraph. I'm a little stronger on Pelosi's tearing up the speech. It's not about respect for the President, but respect for your own office and his. It's not respect for Trump, but the institutions you're trying to uphold.

Think we've more or less concluded those institutions are a joke and don't deserve much respect.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Pelosi is a moron who does these little stunts for attention. It's dumb and doesn't help her or her party.


I'm not sure why people think there needs to be some decorum and respect shown. He has said he doesn't believe her or her party are real Americans. He has relentlessly targeted them to make their lives worse. He's a white supremacist running child concentration camps at the border.

If you're really upset about her tearing up a piece of paper, you're just virtue signaling.

Agreed on all this. I think she could have made a greater statement by refusing to attend, and certainly would have preferred that, but whatever.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'll drop my two cents since I happened to drop in. As I mentioned before, I voted Libertarian in the last election. I'll probably do the same in this election. Despite the fact that Trump's policies have helped me and my family financially along with my business, I simply can't stomach voting for him just because he's a schmuck and/or possibly mentally ill.

With that said, if he gets reelected, the finger should be pointed directly at Pelosi and the idiots in the Democratic part of the House who thought that it would be a good idea to have her serve as their leader. Her goofy attempts at grandstanding, her uncomfortable moments on camera, and her stumbles in interviews have not served them well at all. If you're going to take the road of fighting fire with fire when attacking a political figure like Trump, you better bring a pitbull that can match him blow for blow. Instead, they have a poodle who looks like she couldn't even find her water bowl without someone pointing directly at the bowl.

I predicted that Trump has far more support that people know about in the last election and I was right. If anything, I think that silent support is only emboldened in the upcoming election by the repeated gaffes of Pelosi and Democratic leadership.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

It's not that you (the ubiquitous you) are not welcome, supporting the vile criminal that is trump is what's not welcome, when it is blatantly obvious he is a vile criminal. I don't know what else to tell you man in that regard. What I can tell you, I'm going to continue to be as disrespectful and defiant as I possibly can towards trump until trump is out of office and can do no further damage.

But your quote wasn't being disrespectful to Trump - it was to anyone who doesn't agree with you. You can say whatever you want about him, Pelosi, or anyone else up on the hill and it doesn't bother me. I sure don't think he or anyone else up there is some kind of walking saint. I'm simply saying that when you or anyone else labels everyone in the country a simpleton or a cult member because they don't agree with you you're forcing people into one of two groups. It's the whole basket of deplorables thing. They're either with you or against you and there's no middle ground and I'm saying that's why this went absolutely nowhere. You can't say the choices are either be on my side and support things you don't believe in or be labeled as the scum of the earth because you support some of the things on the other side and be shocked when you don't get any movement on that.

If you want people to not support Trump then you have to have someone they can support and have to give them room to do that. You can't call them simpletons and cult members because some of the things they support are also things Trump supports and pushes forward. Until that happens nothing is going to change. Who ever is going to join "your side" if "your side" constantly calls them names or will turn on you the minute you disagree with something on their side? Call Trump whatever you want but why is your neighbor a simpleton or cult member if he likes some of the things that Trump has done?

Do you somehow think Romney is now a hero because of his meaningless vote? The next time he votes in lockstep with Trump and the Rs is he still going to be the one decent guy in the R party or does his status get revoked back to simpleton and cult member because that's exactly what is going to happen. Romney is (now/again) a traitor to the GOP and will be jeered by the left the next time a vote comes around for anything. It's not like if RGB dies and Romney supports whoever Trump picks that Schumer is all of a sudden going to say "ok well Romney is on board so I guess this person is ok". No, if Trump gets another pick for the SC that person will go through everything the last two did and probably more. Do you think that if the senate had voted to convict Trump that the left would be satisfied and suddenly start working with Pence to push forward some awesome bi-partisan agenda?

That's why I brought up Pelosi not standing for the little girl - just because you might hate Trump or think he's an asshole doesn't mean that everyone who is somehow associated with him or supports some of his policies is. That's how deep the hatred runs - that she and others couldn't even be happy that some little girl with a single mother is getting an opportunity in life to better her situation. If its shitty behavior when Trump does it then its shitty behavior when Pelosi or anyone else does it too. If you think Trump is a criminal that's fine - I'm sure if you did some digging you would find a whole lot of criminals sitting up on that hill. What is not fine and what needs to change is to have the decency to let each person be judged on their own beliefs and actions as opposed to being lumped into one of two huge groups that if we were honest none of us would agree completely with.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

It is all the same partisan BS.

The folks saying she lacks class, etc. are the same folks who think Trump's daily twitter tantrums are awesome.

I specifically stated I find Trump to also be without class. I agree with a fair amount of his stances, yet I cannot stand the man, and I cannot stand how he conducts himself as President.

None of that excuses Pelosi acting in equally poor taste. Neither acts with the anywhere near the level of dignity and tact that those in their position should be held to.