HOA dispute (no-longer) brewin...update!

[Toddzilla]

I got a letter from my HOA yesterday saying I was in violation for an external security light on my garage that never received HOA approval. I wrote them an email this morning and told them that (1) Said security light was on my garage when I bought the house in 1998 and (2) I have never received a complaint or notice of violation about the security light in question and therefore (3) The reasonable expectation has been set over 20 years that there is no issue with the light and (4) I'm not spending any time, effort, or money on the issue.

So I got a snarky response telling me they don't care, that I need to remove it or I'll get fined.

I wonder how/if I should even fight this. My thoughts are to tell them to pound sand, I'm going to lawyer up, so get ready for a fight - let them spend money on their lawyer - then just say "ok" and file the paperwork.

[molson]

They want a fight. Don't go to war over a light. You have better things going on in your life than these miserable fucks do.

I'd just change the light, maybe throw a party and have a ceremony building up to the official replacement, and MAYBE send them receipts, affidavits, photos, and some snarky commentary if I could find the right words.

[CraigSca]

Do they just want you take it down, period? Is it something that would normally be approved if you wanted to add a light to your home?

[CU Tiger]

There isn't enough money in the world to make me take that light down.
I'd not only hire a lawyer to fight it, I'd also notify them that I intend to seek personal damages and restitution from the board members for their lack of judgement and lack of policing of my failure for the last 20 years, and ask for a reimbursement of all HOA fees paid and that I intended to try and disolve the HOA covenants based on discriminatory housing practices and that once disolved I intended to start parking cars on blocks in my front yard just to destroy their property value.

I mean they have already made it absurd, I would just carry on.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

There isn't enough money in the world to make me take that light down.
I'd not only hire a lawyer to fight it, I'd also notify them that I intend to seek personal damages and restitution from the board members for their lack of judgement and lack of policing of my failure for the last 20 years, and ask for a reimbursement of all HOA fees paid and that I intended to try and disolve the HOA covenants based on discriminatory housing practices and that once disolved I intended to start parking cars on blocks in my front yard just to destroy their property value.

I mean they have already made it absurd, I would just carry on.

This. Please do this. And keep us updated when you do.

[digamma]

I get that HOAs can be poorly run and go overboard with power hungry second or third chance cools, but ostensibly my money has gone into the HOA, so I'm not sure I'd want that spent on a lawsuit versus me. Unless there's a back history we're missing here, why not just a simple conversation to try to understand why the issue is just coming up now? Seems like there is more to the story.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

There isn't enough money in the world to make me take that light down.
I'd not only hire a lawyer to fight it, I'd also notify them that I intend to seek personal damages and restitution from the board members for their lack of judgement and lack of policing of my failure for the last 20 years, and ask for a reimbursement of all HOA fees paid and that I intended to try and disolve the HOA covenants based on discriminatory housing practices and that once disolved I intended to start parking cars on blocks in my front yard just to destroy their property value.

I mean they have already made it absurd, I would just carry on.

Sounds perfectly reasonable and not the slightest bit insane.

[PilotMan]

The HOA doesn't care if you fight it.

Does the light violate the CC&R's of the HOA?

Are you dealing directly with the HOA Board, or a Management company?

How involved is the HOA Board in the management of the community?

All these things are very important in determining the next step.

If you're dealing with the Management company request a meeting with the Board. Tell them that you're willing to submit the light for approval, but that they should know that it has been on there for years, and prior to you living there.

If it's coming from the Board I'd still ask for a meeting to find out why after all this time it's a big deal. Is this similar to other lights in the community or does it stand out? It's important if other lights have been approved that are like yours, then it should be reasonable that yours should be too.

The board has the power to approve it, even if they recognize that you didn't put it there, and never submitted paperwork for it. Although it seems like they don't really care about that judging from your post.

It's possible the it's just the Management company acting on behalf of the documents as they have a legal obligation to do, and trying to clean up from a bad manager or what have you. It's still a very heavy handed approach.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

There isn't enough money in the world to make me take that light down.
I'd not only hire a lawyer to fight it, I'd also notify them that I intend to seek personal damages and restitution from the board members for their lack of judgement and lack of policing of my failure for the last 20 years, and ask for a reimbursement of all HOA fees paid and that I intended to try and disolve the HOA covenants based on discriminatory housing practices and that once disolved I intended to start parking cars on blocks in my front yard just to destroy their property value.

I mean they have already made it absurd, I would just carry on.

I have to deal with at least one person in our neighborhood like this. No idea why he moved here. Just roll my eyes and move on. Unless you're dealing with the most mismanaged HOA in the history of the world, and there's a groundswell of support from fellow owners who are being treated horribly you're just going to get laughed out of the building.

[Toddzilla]

My endgame is to, obviously, not have to do anything. I'll accept having to do some stupid paperwork to get the approval for the light, but not before I ask hundreds of clarifying questions of the HOA.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

My endgame is to, obviously, not have to do anything. I'll accept having to do some stupid paperwork to get the approval for the light, but not before I ask hundreds of clarifying questions of the HOA.

A Google turned up all sorts of requirements for HOA's in the state of Virginia.
I think this would be a good time to make sure they've done allllllll their filings properly and to the letter of the law too.

Oh, and apparently they're covered under the open records act in the state, so request for all the minutes of all their meetings for the past year or two seems in order here as well.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I have to deal with at least one person in our neighborhood like this. No idea why he moved here. Just roll my eyes and move on. Unless you're dealing with the most mismanaged HOA in the history of the world, and there's a groundswell of support from fellow owners who are being treated horribly you're just going to get laughed out of the building.

To be clear, that was tongue in cheek, sarcasm as humor. I hoped the intentional lack of punctuation and run on sentence would convey that intent but maybe not.

Now, I wouldnt remove the light. But I wouldnt handle it that way either.

Many other factors would really determine how I responded.

I have to deal with an HOA, that I am not actually subject to. I have a house and acreage....somewhere between 10 and 45 acres to be more precise (3 tracts...all connected but ....gets complicated ) they built a neighborhood up to my back property line and put a new road in. My house is not, was and and never will be part of the HOA. My property is zone AGR and RUD10...their's are all RES1...

Every year new HOA board members get elected. And every year I get a string of "notice of violations"..for such nonsense as Non-typical mailbox, non-conforming sconce lights on my detached garage a detached garage that can't exist. Goats, Cows and other "non-typical" pets. Etc etc etc.

The first 2 years I simply sent a nice letter explaining I wasnt part of their covenants, included a copy of said covenants complete with included property plat numbers and showing my plat numbers. Both times they went away. Year 3 I went to the board election meeting. Introduced myself to those that didnt know me, and just spoke up that I invited everyone out to our upcoming Independence day party and also please kindly note that we were not part of the HOA, our property doesnt conform, doesnt have to and please save the members funds by not sending me a letter this year detailing my grievances. I did it politely and professionally....but someone got butt hurt

That year they sent the letter and paid for warden delivery. I was "served" a sealed letter. GRRRRRR. Then the she-bitch secretary of the HOA called my wife a not nice word when she saw her walking and...we can be a vindictive bunch. We reviewed a list of said covenants and we now document all other violations for fun. My wife, a stay at home mom goes for walks every day ihone in hand. In June when we get our notice we respond with all the other violations from the prior year, and highlight all those by new incoming board members. We let them get all worked up and respond formally with a long drawn out story about how other's past violation don't excuse m current ones. After 3-4 exchanges we typically then send our letter explaining why we are not in the HOA which has been signed by the attorney that represents the HOA.

Its good fun for my wife....

[PilotMan]

Ok, I laughed at that. Good grief. You'd figure someone might be smart enough to learn and move on.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by molson

I'd just change the light, maybe throw a party and have a ceremony building up to the official replacement.

That would be so great! Bigger the better.

[JPhillips]

HOAs are a big reason why I don't understand the local government is better than national government argument.

[molson]

I wondering how much money I'm throwing down the drain in home value by not having the right external security light.

[Critch]

You should consider taking down the light and throwing it through the window of the HOA boardmember you suspect. Maybe tie it to a brick and smear it with dogshit for effect.

[Easy Mac]

Mine wants us to tear down our wooden picket fence that we paint and replace parts yearly, and move to an ugly metal fence. They changed the rules for fences last year. For now they're holding off, but who knows how long.

One of neighbors got a letter saying they had to paint their house within 20 days or a lien will be placed on their house. They were not notified before.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

My endgame is to, obviously, not have to do anything.

This.

I like the JIMGA/A Few Good Men approach here. Go to softball practice, and before you lift a finger, make them go blind with paperwork because a previous homeowner put a $30 security light over the garage 20 years ago.

[dawgfan]

Why do people buy homes in places governed by this kind of BS? Seems like an invitation for anal-retentive, power-hungry assholes to drive you insane...

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Why do people buy homes in places governed by this kind of BS? Seems like an invitation for anal-retentive, power-hungry assholes to drive you insane...

So you don't have to look at someone else's busted ass, piece of shit, car repair lot in their front yard, or have homes that clearly aren't taken care of, or so the community property is properly managed and taken care of, like ponds, pools, parks, etc?

[molson]

My city and county government is pretty aggressive dealing with true nuisance homes, so I'm quite happy to deal with the horrors of non-conforming exterior lights in exchange for not feeling like I'm living in a student housing or something with all the regulations, or feeling like any of my neighbors care about things like that.

My city doesn't have a ton of HOAs, but they were still problematic enough that Idaho passed some legislation a few years back to reel them in. (Which is pretty amazing considering how our state government generally feels about regulation.)

But, I'm sure too you hear way more about the bad ones than the good ones. I'd think the concept would work better if HOAs were smaller, everybody knew each other, and they were truly put together based on shared community values, as opposed to something that kind of grows and evolves over time and applies to people in ways they didn't reasonably expect when they bought the property. (Or in CU Tiger's case, when they actually try to annex neighboring properties into their jurisdiction).

[PilotMan]

It really all comes down to who the people are that are volunteering. The board has a legal obligation to enforce the rules, but over enforcement will backfire, so you have to pick your battles. There's always a contingent of people who don't want to do anything (to people who aren't complying) and those that want the board to bring the axe down.

I volunteered because there were things I wanted to see happen and improve and nobody else was going to do it. I wanted to set an example for my kids of what leadership can accomplish. I've been successful on both accounts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So you don't have to look at someone else's busted ass, piece of shit, car repair lot in their front yard, or have homes that clearly aren't taken care of, or so the community property is properly managed and taken care of, like ponds, pools, parks, etc?

Proper zoning & code enforcement will handle the former just fine.

[JonInMiddleGA]

On a side note, I actually live in a neighborhood that has an HOA. Technically.

The fun part is that it has zero enforcement power for anything and there's basically nothing covered under it at this point except a small planting bed by the entrance. The annual "dues letter" is effectively a request for donations so that somebody can go play gardener.

[RainMaker]

Is HOA more common in certain states than others? I've heard so many nightmare stories about people living within HOA that I think I'd avoid it at all costs.

The problem seems to be that every neighborhood has that person who is overly concerned with everyone else's home. I've found they are often retired, grumpy, and have no hobbies. Now when you throw in a HOA, this person is going to get to the top and use that tiny ounce of power for some self-validation. Without it, you can tell them to fuck off.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Proper zoning & code enforcement will handle the former just fine.

Yeah, most halfway decent run towns have laws in places to prevent this kind of stuff. I had a neighbor back when I lived in the burbs who was clearly running some kind of arcade repair shop out of his home. Always had trucks pulling up and out started stockpiling parts along the side of his house. I didn't care but someone else did and he got shut down. Didn't require an HOA, just basic zoning regulations that said you can't run a commercial business in a residential neighborhood.

Other stuff like poorly maintained lawns, how high you can build, how many pets you can keep, and so on all are covered in some capacity by towns. HOA seems to be for people who want to make sure their neighbors garage is painted in the same hue of green as theirs.

[tarcone]

We have a pool and a pond with a fountain in our subdivision. So we have a HOA.
Hate it. You get the wrong person on it and chaos ensues.

A few years ago I think they were stealing money somehow. Not sure how. Since we go through a management company. But one of the trustees husbands got hired to do a lot of work around the neighborhood.

[panerd]

I'm with Pilotman on this one. Maybe Missouri or more specifically St. Louis County is different than the rest of the country but we have lived in two houses in the same city one with an HOA and one without. The first had trailers parked in driveways, a guys driveway paving business truck on the street, a school bus, and shitloads of run down houses. The current one was a little annoying when I had to have a busy body approve a fence from a major fencing company but hey at least he will stop the neighbor from building a giant chain link one for an RV like the other neighborhood had. I don't think there are any laws that stop the sort of stuff I am describing and it sure as shit affected my property value.

As for the original post I agree that you are basically fighting against yourself since you pay the HOA dues. Your battle will just be reflected in your future dues.

[Grammaticus]

Somebody probably complained about the light. Anybody new move in recently?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

We have a pool and a pond with a fountain in our subdivision. So we have a HOA.
Hate it. You get the wrong person on it and chaos ensues.

A few years ago I think they were stealing money somehow. Not sure how. Since we go through a management company. But one of the trustees husbands got hired to do a lot of work around the neighborhood.

That stuff happens all the time. Had an issue with a condo association who had a cozy relationship with the management company. The management company ended up stealing all the money and the guy went to jail.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...9/Left-Adrift/
Man gets three years for defrauding condo associations - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

I'm with Pilotman on this one. Maybe Missouri or more specifically St. Louis County is different than the rest of the country but we have lived in two houses in the same city one with an HOA and one without. The first had trailers parked in driveways, a guys driveway paving business truck on the street, a school bus, and shitloads of run down houses. The current one was a little annoying when I had to have a busy body approve a fence from a major fencing company but hey at least he will stop the neighbor from building a giant chain link one for an RV like the other neighborhood had. I don't think there are any laws that stop the sort of stuff I am describing and it sure as shit affected my property value.

As for the original post I agree that you are basically fighting against yourself since you pay the HOA dues. Your battle will just be reflected in your future dues.

How Libertarian of you!

[CU Tiger]

When I was building out residential neighborhoods in Charlotte, there was a property management company that came in and took over management of all kinds of neighborhood HOA's. Lie at one pint they had 5,000 houses under their umbrella. One of the things they strictly enforced was matching mailboxes. They had a presentation about how matching mailboxes were uniform and welcoming. It was silly. But they sold it well.

The formed a "partnership" with a metal fabrication company that made decorative ornate mailboxes.

Said company donated all the mailboxes to many new neighborhoods.

When the mailboxes were damaged replacements went from anywhere between $1,800 and $4,000 for a mailbox. The covenants said the mailbox had to come from said vendor.

The husband of the broker in charge of the PM company owned the Metal Shop.

To make matters worse, thee were numerous accusations. (Im talking 30 different times in many different neighborhoods in far reaches of the city) of mailbox bandits coming through and smashing mailboxes by the dozen...seemed to only happen in these specific neighborhoods.

I knew the broker of the PM company. Her personal house was foreclosed on in 2008 at the bottom of the real estate crash. I smiled when I saw that.


That kind of shit pisses me off

[molson]

Originally Posted by panerd

I don't think there are any laws that stop the sort of stuff I am describing and it sure as shit affected my property value.

How can you quantify whether a neighbor's fence or exterior security light impacts your home value v. the impact of buyers staying out over fear of liens, lawsuits, fines, asshole neighbors, theft, etc? (And I'm sure there are also people who actively seek out HOAs that would have be considered too).

To me that stuff always came across as an excuse to justify neighborhood pettiness - "you need to paint your garage or mailbox a different color because, uh, property values, ya!." Does that stuff really make a difference?

And I think generally the amount of run-down homes in an area correlates with the income level of the residents rather whether there's some private organization making them fix their houses.

Edit: I guess I can imagine a really well-run HOA and the benefits that could come from that, I just would never want to take the chance with an investment as big as a house, and with something as important as where I live.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How Libertarian of you!

Heh, well like JPhillips said above this an example of locals doing something better than a whole country HOA system that everyone pays into and 95% is pork. Ours is pretty well run.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by molson

How can you quantify whether a neighbor's fence or exterior security light impacts your home value v. the impact of buyers staying out over fear of liens, lawsuits, fines, asshole neighbors, theft, etc? (And I'm sure there are also people who actively seek out HOAs that would have be considered too).

To me that stuff always came across as an excuse to justify neighborhood pettiness - "you need to paint your garage or mailbox a different color because, uh, property values, ya!." Does that stuff really make a difference?

And I think generally the amount of run-down homes in an area correlates with the income level of the residents rather whether there's some private organization making them fix their houses.

Edit: I guess I can imagine a really well-run HOA and the benefits that could come from that, I just would never want to take the chance with an investment as big as a house, and with something as important as where I live.

If I get a few free minutes I'll post some pictures for you. The old neighborhood is literally two minutes away in the same city with similar house sizes. Yes the house values and residents are different for sure maybe not due to the HOA but the lack of one certainly isn't helping things. One neighborhood looks like Mayfield from Leave it to Beaver and the other looks like Trevor's trailer park in GTAV. Again maybe things are different in Idaho then Missouri but they don't tell us what color to paint our house or where to put our satellite dish but they do say you can't park your boat in your driveway all winter long.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Heh, well like JPhillips said above this an example of locals doing something better than a whole country HOA system that everyone pays into and 95% is pork. Ours is pretty well run.

I was just giving you shit man.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

When I was building out residential neighborhoods in Charlotte, there was a property management company that came in and took over management of all kinds of neighborhood HOA's. Lie at one pint they had 5,000 houses under their umbrella. One of the things they strictly enforced was matching mailboxes. They had a presentation about how matching mailboxes were uniform and welcoming. It was silly. But they sold it well.

The formed a "partnership" with a metal fabrication company that made decorative ornate mailboxes.

Said company donated all the mailboxes to many new neighborhoods.

When the mailboxes were damaged replacements went from anywhere between $1,800 and $4,000 for a mailbox. The covenants said the mailbox had to come from said vendor.

The husband of the broker in charge of the PM company owned the Metal Shop.

To make matters worse, thee were numerous accusations. (Im talking 30 different times in many different neighborhoods in far reaches of the city) of mailbox bandits coming through and smashing mailboxes by the dozen...seemed to only happen in these specific neighborhoods.

I knew the broker of the PM company. Her personal house was foreclosed on in 2008 at the bottom of the real estate crash. I smiled when I saw that.


That kind of shit pisses me off

I'm curious about this. Do most HOAs have an independent auditor come in once in awhile? It just seems like something that would be open to so much abuse.

One thing I found out that was disturbing is it's perfectly legal for a management company to use the reserves for their own personal businesses. When our condo got robbed of the reserves, it was because the guy's own real estate business bombed during the housing crisis so he dipped into the management funds. The only reason he ended up in jail was because he created phony bank statements which got him busted for mail/wire fraud. If he had just said "whoops, I blew all your money", he'd go scot free. Instead we found out when garbage pickup stopped.

Another thing I learned is homeowners insurance will cover the cost of the special assessment fees they had to tack on to replenish the funds.

[JediKooter]

Get a horse. They will totally forget about the light.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm curious about this. Do most HOAs have an independent auditor come in once in awhile? It just seems like something that would be open to so much abuse.

One thing I found out that was disturbing is it's perfectly legal for a management company to use the reserves for their own personal businesses. When our condo got robbed of the reserves, it was because the guy's own real estate business bombed during the housing crisis so he dipped into the management funds. The only reason he ended up in jail was because he created phony bank statements which got him busted for mail/wire fraud. If he had just said "whoops, I blew all your money", he'd go scot free. Instead we found out when garbage pickup stopped.

Another thing I learned is homeowners insurance will cover the cost of the special assessment fees they had to tack on to replenish the funds.

In KY at least, the amount of records that are required are dependent on the income that the association takes in. Our HOA is 300 homes and our requirement is only that detailed financial records are kept. We had been paying to do an audit yearly, but we determined that it was a waste of money and that we were being overcharged for something we didn't need.

We still have to abide by provisions of rules regarding non-profit organizations and submit paperwork to the state along with out taxes. The entire point of a reputable management company is that it protects the volunteer board members from the possibility that someone might embezzle funds or cook the books. Management companies also allow us freedom from having to deal with the day to day issues that homeowners might have, and it gives owners a single point of contact for questions, although with our FB group, that has created a direct line to the board for explanations and advice. That will last as long as board members like myself are willing to put the time into it.

No way that we have time to worry about fucking security lights. Yeah we send out a lot of notices about unkept, weedy yards, and trash cans that haven't been moved to the side of the house, but I can't remember the last time that anyone was actually fined for one of those things. The most common fine for non-compliance (after failure to pay dues) is a trailer, commercial truck, or non-running vehicles in driveways.

We try and use the city code enforcement whenever we can to get a homeowner to comply. Their rules mirror our own. Our city doesn't have the resources to police the entire city for code enforcement. My town is largely rural, but while it has probably 25k in population, in land area it's the 3rd largest city in KY (behind Louisville and Lexington) So while they support us, they are rarely on the front end of issues. I've called the police for owners that decided that parking on the sidewalk, like all the way on the sidewalk, full car, was a parking solution.

People who hate HOA's always bitch about the little things like the trash cans, but it's pretty much just a reminder. On the other end are the people who want the HOA to literally send out fines to neighbors who don't mow, edge and fertilize as much as they do. They feel like every single little thing should be micromanaged. I have to explain that unless they are calling it in, there isn't anyone in the HOA that has that kind of time to go around and find little shit like security lights (if that was a thing we cared about).

We've got much bigger fish to fry like making sure our landscaper is doing his job. Our common areas are huge. Our landscaping contract is nearly 20k per year. Our stuff gets vandalized from stupid kids. All we can really do it clean it up and replace it. I'm just trying to make the place look good. When an agent rolls into our neighborhood with a prospective buyer I want them to go "wow, damn, I want to live here. It looks GOOD!" That's what we try and build.

I suppose that our reserve could be stolen, but that's what it would be, theft. Our management company has a much higher reputation to uphold, given that they manage some of the biggest properties in Northern Kentucky.

It's really hard to get people really involved. I'm now on year 3 of my rehab plan for our community. I've got 3 more to go after this one (as long as I get re-elected), but our HOA and neighborhood is probably in the best place it's been in, in the 9 years that we've been there (the HOA is about 17 years old).

[stevew]

I've been doing a fair bit of Ubering lately and you can just tell where there is an HOA. Maybe it's behind the scenes nonsense. But the neighborhood looks really fucking sharp when there is one.

[CraigSca]

Put me in the HOA club. Everyone has an amusing story about how difficult a time they have dealing with one - we just got a notice that our mailbox needs some upkeep - no big deal.

However, without one, all it takes is one jackass to ruin the neighborhood for everyone. If you want to do what you want with your property, there are plenty of rural areas to go nuts.

[Toddzilla]

Serious question - isn't it incumbent on the HOA to prove that I installed the light without approval? Rather than just assume I did because they have poor record keeping and then putting the burden of proof on me?

UPDATE: VICTORY for the little guy. I called the head of the Architectural Review Board and backed them into that very corner and they relented. I told them the burden of proof was on them to show that the light was not there at the time I bought the house, they agreed they could not and so the violation would be removed.

[chesapeake]

I was part of an HOA in Fairfax County about a decade ago that was transitioning from having not done anything for 20 years to finally coming into basic compliance with VA law. Once we finally got our financials in shape enough to be audited, the Board did start taking steps to start enforcing the the exterior, trash and repair rules in the covenant. My recollection is that the law gave us little ability to enforce our rules against fixed things that were in good repair and had gone unnoticed by the board for a long period of time.

I'm thinking of a couple of instances in particular--one involving a deck and another involving exterior shutters. The latter case seems more a parallel to me--the lawyer who was advising us said we couldn't make them take the shutters down, but we could insist that they paint them one of the colors included in the covenants. Sorry, I can't point you to the spot in the Virginia code where that opinion may have come. And it may be more that the lawyer was just trying to steer us to a more reasonable and achievable outcome, which would have been just fine by me. But the Virginia codes do tend to side with the homeowner against HOAs. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if a long-term failure to enforce effectively grandfathers in something like your security light

Is there some issue a neighbor might have with the security light that is fixable?

[Logan]

My sister and her family live in a very nice country club neighborhood in Bucks County, PA. They have a HOA with all the traditional rules, and from what I've heard, don't seem to run into very many issues. Her house and those surrounding it effectively all back up into a large shared green space for all of them (think of the houses in a circle, with the yard the center).

I was completely shocked to learn that in a place where the HOA requires the front door to be one of maybe 3 specific colors, my sister's neighbor is able to put in a fucking in ground pool in the section of shared space that is directly behind the neighbor's house, and doesn't have to stop any certain distance away from what would line up with my sister's property. This pool is going to be about 30 feet from her back door and maybe 10 feet from the end of her patio. Not the fence surrounding the pool...the actual edge of the pool. And it's all within the rules.

[Toddzilla]

I have a watercolor of my house that my Realtor gave me as a housewarming present and you can see the little garage light in the picture. I wonder if that constitutes proof

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Logan

This pool is going to be about 30 feet from her back door and maybe 10 feet from the end of her patio. Not the fence surrounding the pool...the actual edge of the pool. And it's all within the rules.

Interesting. Usually there's an egress between properties that's enforceable (even a no-fence zone). In Delaware, we could put our fence about 5 feet from our property line - not on the line itself. Also, don't they have to put a fence around the pool for safety?

Where in Bucks County? Used to live there myself for about 20 years.

[Toddzilla]

Dola, while I'm thinking about it, here's an example of why I don't give a shit about my HOA.

When VDOT was expanding the road beside my property from 2 lanes to 4, they had to buy my property adjacent to the right-of-way - we couldn't object due to VA law, but it wasn't much land compared to what they were offering anyway.

VDOT had to buy the property of all my neighbors adjacent to the road widening and as part of construction they had to take down the split-rail fence that separated our property from the common space which contained a sidewalk and bike path. As part of the property settlement, VDOT was required to re-build any structures that they had to destroy that were present at the time of purchase. The fence was technically on our properties, but it was built by, paid for, and maintained by the HOA. So when construction was complete and VDOT built the new fence, exactly like the old fence, all of the homeowners got notices of HOA violations because the fence wan't pre-approved by the HOA and it didn't meet HOA requirements. We were told to take down the fence and put up an appropriate fence or face fines. Despite the terms and conditions of the VDOT work, the HOA didn't care what the old fence was, they were only concerned that a new fence was constructed that violated HOA rules. The group of us homeowners went to the HOA meeting to complain about the violations and the HOA could not have cared less and even threatened to accelerate the timeline of the fines because of the public visibility of the new fence.

Well, one of my enterprising neighbors brought a representative of VDOT with them to the meeting and seeing the HOA asshattery in person, agreed that VDOT would build a new fence to whatever specifications the HOA required and pay for it.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

UPDATE: VICTORY for the little guy. I called the head of the Architectural Review Board and backed them into that very corner and they relented. I told them the burden of proof was on them to show that the light was not there at the time I bought the house, they agreed they could not and so the violation would be removed.

I'm surprised. I'll be surprised if it ends there after this previous story about the VDOT fence.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Interesting. Usually there's an egress between properties that's enforceable (even a no-fence zone). In Delaware, we could put our fence about 5 feet from our property line - not on the line itself. Also, don't they have to put a fence around the pool for safety?

Where in Bucks County? Used to live there myself for about 20 years.

Blue Bell