The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[DaddyTorgo]

oh okay. i honestly haven't read all the various news stories versions of it. that makes more sense then.

[JPhillips]

Here's a great take on the story by John McWhorter. He's not always my cup of tea, but he writes from a somewhat conservative position and has argued that racism isn't the biggest problem for African-Americans.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/mcwho...-he-isn-t.aspx

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm going to take the point that the debate was shifted away from Obama's comments as an admission that he shouldn't have made the comments that he did. I could give a rat's ass who's to blame for the actual incident. My only point was to note that our President acted very unpresidential when queried on the matter.

[JPhillips]

I'm going to take the lack debate on Obama's suit as an admission that his suit was ugly. Obamaniacs teh sux!

[Flasch186]

and I would argue that what one views as 'presidential' or 'not presidential' has been bastardized by the last 16 years of 'presidential', partisan goggles, socioeconomics and a bunch of other stuff.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Or maybe no one wants to argue with you.

Edit: Oh wait, Flasch does.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm going to take the lack debate on Obama's suit as an admission that his suit was ugly. Obamaniacs teh sux!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

No, but yelling in public definitely is. And the people that get arrested for that tend to be yelling at police officers, because an officer has to be there to hear it for there to be an arrest.

Yelling in public is an arrestable offense? Really?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yelling in public is an arrestable offense? Really?

"Disturbing the Peace"

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yelling in public is an arrestable offense? Really?

Every state has a disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct statute.

The one Gates was arrested under sounds like it was written 300 years ago (it may well have been):

"Chapter 272: Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses

Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

A more modern one, like Idaho's, reads like this:

18-6409. DISTURBING THE PEACE. Every person who maliciously and wilfully
disturbs the peace or quiet of any neighborhood, family or person, by loud or
unusual noise, or by tumultuous or offensive conduct, or by threatening,
traducing, quarreling, challenging to fight or fighting, or fires any gun or
pistol, or uses any vulgar, profane or indecent language within the presence
or hearing of children, in a loud and boisterous manner, is guilty of a
misdemeanor.

I have no idea why states can't or won't ammend these statutes to something more workable. You're obviously not going to arrest everyone that violates these statutes. And the second you make a choice - you open yourself up to criticisim.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

Every state has a disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct statute.

The one Gates was arrested under sounds like it was written 300 years ago (it may well have been):

"Chapter 272: Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses

Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

A more modern one, like Idaho's, reads like this:

18-6409. DISTURBING THE PEACE. Every person who maliciously and wilfully
disturbs the peace or quiet of any neighborhood, family or person, by loud or
unusual noise, or by tumultuous or offensive conduct, or by threatening,
traducing, quarreling, challenging to fight or fighting, or fires any gun or
pistol, or uses any vulgar, profane or indecent language within the presence
or hearing of children, in a loud and boisterous manner, is guilty of a
misdemeanor.

i hope that's not a dig on our fine commonwealth

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

So you can't swear around children in Idaho? Good to know.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i hope that's not a dig on our fine commonwealth

Only the legislature

[Mustang]

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mustang

LOL - I wonder if I can get one for Connecticut.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mustang

that's awesome - where'd you find that??? linky!!!!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

"Disturbing the Peace"

Originally Posted by molson

Every state has a disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct statute.

But surely "disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct" is a little more than just yelling, right?

[JPhillips]

I love how the MA statute defines disturbing the peace as "people disturbing the peace".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

But surely "disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct" is a little more than just yelling, right?

I wouldn't think so, and especially not when you're yelling at a cop who is simply trying to do his job like some sort of raving lunatic. Next time I hope they don't bother to respond to a call at this home at all, would be be highly poetic justice. And then we can get a whole different set of whining from the usual, err, suspects.

Obama's remarks were nothing more than purely racially motivated pandering from a blithering idiot and shows him precisely for what a worthless sack of shit he is.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

But surely "disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct" is a little more than just yelling, right?

As a practical matter, yes. As a practical matter, the rule is really, "If an officer tells you to knock it off, knock it off" and "don't screw with any civilian to the extent that it goes beyond our societal norms of what's acceptable (like blaring a radio in the middle of a residential street at 2AM)

But litterally, I think yelling loudly is covered in both statute examples. (As are activites that millions of people do all the time without being arrested). The problem with statutes being so broad is that any actual arrest or citation under it is going to be questioned. And it obviously does create the possibility of arbitrary racial enforcement, etc.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

that's awesome - where'd you find that??? linky!!!!

It is actually a t-shirt available from T-shirt hell. (I had to look for an alternate link since I can't get there from work and wouldn't post the link here... definite NSFW)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mustang

It is actually a t-shirt available from T-shirt hell. (I had to look for an alternate link since I can't get there from work and wouldn't post the link here... definite NSFW)

gotcha...goodstuff

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Someone want to tell me why the hell the President felt the need to comment on the local case involving the arrest of a Harvard professor at his home? While I'm not interested in arguing who was right and wrong in the situation, I REALLY don't think we need a president who feels the need to pull a Jesse Jackson and interjects himself into every small flare-up that allows him to gain more attention. Leave that to Jesse Jackson and his 'Rainbow Coalition' podium that follows him everywhere he goes.

By the way, the president didn't have a lunchtime conference yesterday, likely because he had an hour of primetime TV that night. 2/3.

Are YOU really upset about this? Or are the websites you read that tell you what to think the ones that are upset over this? It's just odd how everything you think is bad are the same exact things that are mentioned in the daily talking points by the Republican party.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Are YOU really upset about this? Or are the websites you read that tell you what to think the ones that are upset over this? It's just odd how everything you think is bad are the same exact things that are mentioned in the daily talking points by the Republican party.

Yes, the thought that we'd discuss topics in a political thread in a timely manner is such a foreign idea. I find it really odd that everything I mention that I think is good is ALSO mentioned in the daily talking points of various organizations/websites.

I don't use any sites as a barometer to what I think, but if it serves as a tool for you to attempt to minimize my opinions, feel free. If there's anyone that knows how to overgeneralize things and lump people into groups on this board without any real backing, it's definitely you.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Yes, the thought that we'd discuss topics in a political thread in a timely manner is such a foreign idea. I find it really odd that everything I mention that I think is good is ALSO mentioned in the daily talking points of various organizations/websites.

I don't use any sites as a barometer to what I think, but if it serves as a tool for you to attempt to minimize my opinions, feel free. If there's anyone that knows how to overgeneralize things and lump people into groups on this board without any real backing, it's definitely you.

It just comes across odd to me that your daily "irate" moment at the President just so happens to be the same thing that every right leaning website is "irate" about. It must be some giant coincidence though.

[JPhillips]

Yes, the thought that we'd discuss topics in a political thread in a timely manner is such a foreign idea.

Isn't this essentially what happened at the press conference?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It just comes across odd to me that your daily "irate" moment at the President just so happens to be the same thing that every right leaning website is "irate" about. It must be some giant coincidence though.

Which is your usual MO in most debates. Lump poster X into a group and ridicule them for agreeing with that group rather than discussion on the merits of said topic. It's a relatively tired and uninspired method of debate that belongs in the Beltway and its partisan politics, but feel free to continue if discussing the topic itself is difficult.

[RainMaker]

My personal opinion is the President should have probably not said anything. There is really no reason to politicize an issue like this.

The cop is still a fucking bafoon. Bust into anyone's house and accuse them of breaking in and you'll find a lot of pissed off people. I don't know if it was racist at all, but definitely unnecessary. Cop should have apologized, put his tail between his legs and drove off.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Isn't this essentially what happened at the press conference?

Well, at least we're back on topic.

As stated before, there was nothing wrong with the president responding that he was aware of the situation and that the local law enforcement would handle it in the appropriate manner. But everything after that was out of line and not something that the president should be saying or doing. He had no business giving an uninformed opinion on the topic, especially when it comes to placing any level of blame. He also has no business commenting on flare-ups at the local level. He's the president, not a mayor.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The cop is still a fucking bafoon. Bust into anyone's house and accuse them of breaking in and you'll find a lot of pissed off people.

Thanks for the fact-based comments, Mr. Obama.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Which is your usual MO in most debates. Lump poster X into a group and ridicule them for agreeing with that group rather than discussion on the merits of said topic. It's a relatively tired and uninspired method of debate that belongs in the Beltway and its partisan politics, but feel free to continue if discussing the topic itself is difficult.

I'm not lumping you into anything. Just saying it's not really a debate. You're just regurgitating what's on every right-wing blog.

OUTRAGE: President Obama Owes Sgt. James Crowley an Apology - Swamp_Yankee’s blog - RedState
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti...om_of_the_Deck
Hot Air » Blog Archive » How not to win support from police unions; Update: Obama retreats; Update: Bill Cosby “shocked” by Obama’s remarks

Why not just post links to them since your beliefs seem to match them identically on a daily basis? I'm just asking for a little independent thought in this thread man.

[Edward64]

Another perspective that I think most of us respect?

Bill Cosby ’shocked’ at Obama’s statement on Harvard prof’s arrest | csmonitor.com

Bill Cosby said he was "shocked" to hear President Obama weigh-in on the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. on a Boston radio show this morning. "If I'm the president of the United States, I don't care how much pressure people want to put on it about race, I'm keeping my mouth shut."

Oh, sorry. Saw that it was already posted.

[DaddyTorgo]

eh, i have no problem with MBBF bringing the subject up. I do think the level of "SHOCK" over it (namely by himself and Jon) is maybe a bit overstated though. I mean do I think it was a stupid thing for him to comment on at all and he had no business commenting on it. Yeah. But I hardly think it makes him unfit to be President or deserving of mass scorn or anything.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Regardless of race, I'd think most police departments would consider it a failure to arrest a guy after you mistakenly think he's breaking into his own house. I'm sure Gates got heated and escalated the confrontation, but after the ID was shown the officer should have gotten out of there ASAP. His need to show who's boss has made this event a nightmare for the CPD.

Just to be clear, I'll take his word that in his mind race had nothing to do with it, but he still acted unprofessionally.

That's pretty funny, a guy that's an officer of the law should get out of somewhere ASAP, because he was following a call that someone was breaking into a house, shows up, and it ends up being the guys home? He should run because a guy is yelling at him about being a racist? I'm betting if the police don't show up, and Gates finds out about the call later, he is screaming that the police didn't check on his house being broken into because he's black. Obama has no business making the comment he did. I voted for him, I'm not racist, nor am I a "cop is right in every instance" kind of guy, but this is ridiculous.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Are YOU really upset about this? Or are the websites you read that tell you what to think the ones that are upset over this? It's just odd how everything you think is bad are the same exact things that are mentioned in the daily talking points by the Republican party.

This probably goes without saying, but how is this different than the usual liberal angst on the other side of the fence?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

This probably goes without saying, but how is this different than the usual liberal angst on the other side of the fence?

It's not. Partisians suck and are fucking up this country.

[jeff061]

Gate's is an idiot. I don't care how well respected he is, he is clearly in the wrong. Facts are being twisted to project an agenda unrelated to his arrest. I am happy this issue didn't get a thread all to itself.

A white guy would have been treated identically.

Scratch that, he wouldn't be arrested because he wouldn't be screaming at the cops as they were trying to leave. Then again, the same could be said about majority of people regardless of color. Which brings us back to my first sentence.

And Obama shouldn't have said anything if only because they are friends.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not. Partisians suck and are fucking up this country.

Honestly, I rarely read political threads, but when I have I've never thought of you as a bastion of non-partisanship.

[ISiddiqui]

Dunno if its been said, but it appears on the "he gave his ID" front, there are conflicting stories. Gates saying he gave his Harvard ID and Driver's License, while Sgt. Crowley is saying Gates only gave his Harvard ID, which has no address on it.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Honestly, I rarely read political threads, but when I have I've never thought of you as a bastion of non-partisanship.

Agreed. RainMaker's views fit one side pretty easily.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Honestly, I rarely read political threads, but when I have I've never thought of you as a bastion of non-partisanship.

What side of the aisle am I on? I think my views are pretty mixed.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Dunno if its been said, but it appears on the "he gave his ID" front, there are conflicting stories. Gates saying he gave his Harvard ID and Driver's License, while Sgt. Crowley is saying Gates only gave his Harvard ID, which has no address on it.

Why would he have his Harvard ID and not his Drivers License?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What side of the aisle am I on? I think my views are pretty mixed.

I would have checked Democrat personally or at least very heavily leaning.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Dunno if its been said, but it appears on the "he gave his ID" front, there are conflicting stories. Gates saying he gave his Harvard ID and Driver's License, while Sgt. Crowley is saying Gates only gave his Harvard ID, which has no address on it.

If he showed his driver's license, he wouldn't have been able to get in the newspapers, increase his profile, or call a bunch of cops racist. He's a brilliant guy, I think he knew what he was doing.

It wouldn't seem that the officer would have the same motivation to lie. It's certainly possible that he just wanted to push around a rich, prominent black guy and hope that nobody would make a big deal about it. Though even at worst, the consensus seems to be he was just getting a little tired of being yelled at. All the trouble seems barely worth it for the cop, even if he's a raging racist.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by molson

If he showed his driver's license, he wouldn't have been able to get in the newspapers, increase his profile, or call a bunch of cops racist. He's a brilliant guy, I think he knew what he was doing.

I'm not sure he needs to increase his profile. He's probably one the three most famous, if not the most famous, professor at Harvard. But you're sure he orchestrated his arrest in order to make waves.

People really want to fit him into some preconceived box that I'm not sure is the right fit. Not saying that he's blameless at all, but Gates is not Al Sharpton.

[Mustang]

Even if he showed his drivers license, had an oil painting of himself visible from the door, a carved marble statue of himself in a Greek discus thrower pose and a sign that said 'Gate's Residence', I'd fully expect the cops to still call it in.

[JPhillips]

Now that it's clear we live in a post-racial world I think I'll step away from this conversation for a while. Let me know when we're back to Obama being a socialist.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I'm not sure he needs to increase his profile. He's probably one the three most famous, if not the most famous, professor at Harvard. But you're sure he orchestrated his arrest in order to make waves.

People really want to fit him into some preconceived box that I'm not sure is the right fit. Not saying that he's blameless at all, but Gates is not Al Sharpton.

Ya, what I said is probably taking it a tad too far. I'm sure he's not used to ANYONE questioning him, whether it be law enforcement or other faculty. Not any different than how a rich white man with a sense of entitlement might react to such a situation (except for the rantings about racisim).

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think it's just a shame that the media has nothing else to report on and this has become the topic du jour. Ideological lines have been drawn. The cop is a racist/Gates is a race-baiter. I don't know much about the cop, but from what I've read he seems like a pretty good guy. I do know a bit about Gates, and he is a historical scholar who tends to take fairly measured views on things. All of that is getting lost though (and certainly Gates is to blame for it to some degree).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I would have checked Democrat personally or at least very heavily leaning.

I think if anything I go the other way. I'm against welfare, food stamps, and a lot of big government spending. I'm for a flat tax or at least making the current system much less progressive. Much less spending overall, although still spending wisely on things that progress our society (science, research, technology, etc).

Socially I lean to the left but probably more Libertarian than anything. I just think government should stay out of our lives for the most part. I'm still pro-death penalty and pro-gun rights (to an extent).