setting a batting order? (real-life)

[cthomer5000]

Can anyone point me to some theories/ideas/statistical models on how to set a batting order?

I'm one of three guys running our company softball team, and our run production has been lagging, despite some pretty consistent performances from a majority of our lineup. It's almost as if we have unwittingly constructed the anti-lineup, since we either strand runners or deliver our biggest hits with no one on base.

We've been keeping season-long statistics, which i imagine will be a very large part of the process, perhaps modified by an eyeball evaluation of whether someone appears to have been particularly hot or cold during that streak.

all help is welcome.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

lighten up, its company softball. rofl

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

lighten up, its company softball. rofl

Well, getting your ass kicked consistenly tends to make it a less enjoyable experience for all. Being competitve is much more fun.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

lighten up, its company softball. rofl

I've consulted with myself, and we don't really like your attitude very much.

[Swaggs]

Get the guys that get on base the most as many ABs as possible.

[sovereignstar]

Perhaps purposely injuring all of your veteran players before the 'real' season began wasn't such a good idea.

[Vince]

Damn, I've already packed away my stats book on Baseball. I took a baseball class in college and we had an entire thing set up for this. Generally speaking, here's the philosophy...

1) Speed, OBP -- The prototypical lead-off hitter has a great On-Base Percentage and good speed. Ichiro, Podsednik, Pierre, etc. This is a guy who will get on base as much as humanly possible, and will be able to steal a base/beat out a Double-Play ball.

2) Speed, OBP -- Your second best 'leadoff hitter' goes here. Speed and OBP are important here as well. You want as many people as possible on base when your heavy hitters get up to bat.

3) Best Hitter on the Team -- this is your best hitter, period. Power, average, etc. Most people like the idea of a "Clean-up Hitter," but the guy in the third slot in the batting order will get more at-bats, so you want him here instead.

4) Second best hitter on the team -- Usually a good power hitter, this is to protect your #1 hitter. Otherwise the other team can pitch around him with no fear.

5) Third best hitter on the team -- Like before, this is the guy you want to protect your #2 hitter.

6) Best hitter left -- see above.

7) #3 lead-off man -- you want your #7 batter to be quick -- avoiding double-plays is a nice bonus, and on top of that...

8) Your slowest runner -- you usually want to hide your slowest player at #8. With a quick guy before and after him, you can break up double-plays on slow grounders.

9) #4 lead-off man -- here you put your 4th best 'leadoff hitter' type.

That's just the general description off the top of my head, and it applies to baseball (where you can steal bases) and with a DH. So it might not help at all. But there it is.

[Travis]

I agree with a lot of what Vince said, though I'll also add that if you have a good mix of leftty and righty hitters, alternate them as much as possible to force the other team to keep moving their outfield back and forth. Even if they shift all but once, it could mean a bit hit that you wouldn't get if you hit them all grouped together.

Other than that, I've always believed that the #3 hitter should ideally be the guy on your team that combines power and speed the best.

Seeing the numbers of the people on your team (and a general description of each) would probably be really helpful though.

[EagleFan]

It's not quite like a baseball lineup, especially if it's slow pitch softball. I found that I got better results keeping the "macho" guys seperated in the lineup. I define them as the ones who have the power but feel the need to swing for the fences more than not. I noticed that lumping them together seemed to make them try to outdo each other in big situations which led to a lot of pop up outs. Could just have been my imagination, but it seemed to help.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Travis

Seeing the numbers of the people on your team (and a general description of each) would probably be really helpful though.

Yeah, I'll provide stats and an accompanying description of the core roster tomorrow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Good stuff in Vince's post, and in the Travis & Eaglefan follow-ups. Even at the lowest levels of kids ball, it's actually a little harder than it looks on TV IMO.

[SackAttack]

Here's how I generally construct my lineups:

1) Speed and OBP are great, but I also want a guy who doesn't strike out much. Give me somebody who will put the ball in play consistently so he can pressure the defense with his speed. If I can't have all three, though, I'll take a prototypical speed/OBP guy.
2) Unlike Vince, I probably would not put my "#2 leadoff hitter" in this spot, for reasons I'll get to later. I'm not as concerned with OBP out of the #2 spot, although I agree that you want as many guys as possible on base for your boppers. What I want here is a guy who hits well for average and doesn't strike out much. If he doesn't walk much, that's okay too, as long as I can rely on him to get the leadoff runner into scoring position.
3) My best pure hitter. This is the guy who comes closest to putting together the package of power, eye, and contact.
4) cleanup hitter. I want this guy to hit the ball a country mile, but I want him to know the strike zone, too. Not as concerned with BA here.
5) If I've got a guy who's like #3, only not quite as good, he goes here.
6) This is an OBP spot for me. If he's got a little bit of power, that's nice too, but I want this guy to be able to get on base so that we can keep the lineup moving and hopefully avoid having the pitcher lead off the next inning.
7) my weakest hitter, although I'd like him to be proficient in bunting so he can move guys over.
8) Here's where I stick my second leadoff hitter. He may not get as many scoring opportunities as the leadoff man does, but if he can "turn the lineup over," so to speak, and get my true leadoff guy to start the next inning if the pitcher hits with two outs, that's valuable to me. Plus, I want a guy who can stay out of the double play to bat here.
9) pitcher.

The American League is dead to me, so I'll ignore them and their abominable DH.

[perez24]

I like sticking a good hitter with average to little power in the 4th slot, and then sticking a slugger in the 5th or 6th position. In softball---unless you have a lot of scouting going on---the outfield is going to move in some after the clean up hitter, so you might be able to catch an outfielder napping.

If you have a lefty who goes to left field well, have him pull everything in batting practice so that they load up the right side. If/when he slaps a ball to LF, have everyone make a big deal about it, so they keep giving him/her the line.

Steroids help too.

[cthomer5000]

Ok guys, this is softball so some key elements:

1. No stealing bases
2. No bunting
3. Teams being able to actually pull of a double-play are pretty rare
4. We have to play some females in the lineup, most of which generally have next to no skill.

[Balldog]

I know nothing about setting a lineup for slow pitch softball, the strategy as opposed to baseball is a complete 180. In baseball everything Vince posted is correct, #2 hitter needs be a person that avoids strikeouts and has good bat control.

[oykib]

The lineup has very little bearing on the amount of runs produced over any length of time.

That being said, you also want to generally break up your lefties and righties in the lineup in baseball. In (slo-pitch) softball that doesn't matter.

Also, you'd like to have a lefty as your number two hitter (or after any high OBP hitter) to take advantge of the hole on the right side from the first baseman holding the runner on. Again, this is not at all important in slo-pitch.

If I were you I'd check the decision-making ability of my team. If they aren't scoring as much as they should, then they are probably making bad decisions on the basepaths or have the aforementioned macho "outdo the last teammate" syndrome.

Also, practice defense. You're giving up too many runs in addition to scoring too few.

[Maple Leafs]

Sports Illustrated did an article on batting order theory a month or two ago... it may still be on their site.

[dacman]

9/10 of what most of you have posted here is good stuff -- for baseball.

Slow-pitch co-ed softball is a different animal. Almost every batter will hit the ball in play -- walks and strikeouts are very rare. Many co-ed leagues have "anti-guy" rules to level the playing field a bit (like no 2 guys in a row in the batting order, or guys can use wooden bats only, etc.)

Without knowing the specifics of cthomer's league our church league team is usually constructed:

1) fastest guy
2) best hitting girl
3) best hitting guy
4) girl with most power
5) guy with most power
6) worst hitting girl left
7) best hitting girl left
8) worst hitting guy
9) whatever girl left

But that's with the "no 2 guys in a row" rule. We almost always score at least 1 run per inning. YMMV.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Ok guys, this is softball so some key elements:

4. We have to play some females in the lineup, most of which generally have next to no skill.

ok, here's your answer right there. it's coed. no use banging your head or keeping yourself up at night. not to sound sexist, cuz there's some very talented female softball players, but if these chicks with no skill are playing in company softball it's probably cuz they just want to have fun and mingle with the guys.

you're gonna run the risk of being like Will Ferrell in that movie "Kicking and Screaming". just have fun.

and if you're one of the coaches, you'd know the basic principles of lineup making - leadoff person is the fastest guy who can hit the ball, #2 is your best contact hitter who can hit singles and stuff to move the leadoff guy into scoring position, #3 is your best overall hitter, #4 is your power hitter, and the rest is whatever.

but just have fun, if this is a coed league where skill is not a prerequisite to being on the team then nothing you do will matter. i'd probably try to focus on banging these chicks with no talent than worrying about the lineup. if you really want to win then you could join a real softball league like my friends do.

[st.cronin]

Most studies have shown the differences between lineups makes so little difference as to be a waste of time thinking about it. When I was playing Strat, though, I always bat my best hitter 2nd. It seemed to work the best.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Most studies have shown the differences between lineups makes so little difference as to be a waste of time thinking about it. When I was playing Strat, though, I always bat my best hitter 2nd. It seemed to work the best.

This has now been mentioned a couple of times. Does anyone have a link as it would be interesting read up on.

[st.cronin]

Crooked Numbers
Playing With the Lineup

by James Click

On the radio in Boston yesterday, the hosts of the show asked me if I thought that Edgar Renteria would be a good fit for the second spot in the Red Sox lineup. My response was that yes, Renteria would make for a good candidate for the two spot because he has a good OBP; their theory was that he would make a good #2 hitter because he hits for contact. We briefly discussed the idea that the batter in the two hole should be a contact hitter, able to get the leadoff hitter into scoring position for the big bats behind, and the general theories that higher OBP players should bat higher in the lineup to get them more plate appearances.

The more I think about it, though, I’m not sure that we know how much difference the lineup makes most of the time, or whether some of those conventional theories about lineup structure make sense. There has been work on lineup theory out there, from Keith Woolner’s efforts to more advanced research using Markov models.

The lineup is the part of the game over which the manager has the most control. Like the recent trends in bullpen management, however, it’s so ruled by convention that managers really can’t do anything that contradicts with mainstream thinking without drawing the ire and consternation of fans and writers alike. When Tony LaRussa starting batting his pitcher eighth instead of ninth to “get more guys on base in front of Mark McGwire," he was lambasted. When the A’s put Jeremy Giambi--who was as good at stealing as Tommy Williams--in the leadoff spot, the outcry from the media was even greater. Writers stacked soapboxes on top of soapboxes to scream about the essential skills that a leadoff hitter must have, conclusions drawn from years of experience watching and playing baseball.

A lineup's construction has two ramifications: how many times each player bats, and how those plate appearances interact with each other (for the time being, I’m going to disregard tactical matters such as alternating left-handed and right-handed hitters to mitigate platoon issues). The first effect is quite simple and can easily be estimated by average team performance and lineup position. If Barry Bonds bats first, he’s going to get significantly more plate appearances over the course of the season than if he bats lower. Usually, that’s a good thing, but the reason that Bonds doesn’t bat first is the second ramification. Conventional wisdom teaches that the value of those extra plate appearances will be nullified by the fact that Bonds will frequently come to the plate with no one on base by virtue of batting leadoff or, later in the game, after the weaker hitters at the bottom of the lineup. His ability to advance baserunners with long hits is wasted.

In order to start to tackle the problem of lineup optimization from a more theoretical and mathematical standpoint, I’ve written a program that simulates games from a probabilistic perspective. This program is quite similar to something like Strat-O-Matic; it is given a large set of probabilities for game situations and it “plays” out the games, going through each batter and determining the outcome based on the given probabilities. A basic example would be the following:

* Single: .232 (23.2%)
* Double: .035
* Triple: .012
* Home Run: .002
* Walk/HBP: .069

The sum of these (.350) would be a player’s on-base percentage (OBP). For a plate appearance by this player, the program will generate a random number between 0 and 1. If that number is less than .350, the player reaches base. If the number is between 0 and .232 (the player’s probability of a single), the player is credited with a single. Similarly, if the number is between .233 and .267 (the sum of the probability of a single and a double), the player is credited with a double, and so on. The program then adjusts the game situation accordingly and moves on to the next batter.

By providing the program with a full lineup of player probabilities and then running the program for a full 162 games, we can approximate the number of runs a given lineup would score. It would be prudent to note at this point that there are a number of assumptions built into the program. First off, there are no stolen bases. Secondly, while there are several situations in baseball where multiple situations can result from the same inputs--e.g., if there is a man on second base when a single is hit, that runner can remain at second, advance to third, score or be thrown out on the bases--because no speed component of any kind has been employed yet, the major-league average probability is assigned to each of these events.

With all of that stated, we can now begin various theories about lineup construction using the program. For each lineup, the program will run 1,000 seasons, producing a minimum runs scored, a maximum runs scored and a mean. To establish a baseline, we’ll use the major-league average for each probability for all nine players in the lineup, essentially seeking to determine what an average major-league lineup would generate in the program.

(Keep in mind that this result is not exactly intended to be accurate with major-league run scoring averages for several reasons. First, and most obviously, stolen bases, double plays, sacrifices and other more specific game events have yet to be considered. Second, these simulated games will never go into extra innings. Third, park and opposing pitching effects are not calculated).

For each batter in the lineup, we will use the following probabilities:

* Single: .155 (15.5%)
* Double: .047
* Triple: .005
* Home Run: .028
* Walk/HBP: .095

Running through 1,000 iterations yields the following results:

Minimum Runs: 657
Mean Runs: 785
Maximum Runs: 923

Further, the results for each player:

Player 1: 799 PA, .260/.331/.415
Player 2: 780 PA, .259/.330/.415
Player 3: 761 PA, .260/.330/.416
Player 4: 743 PA, .260/.330/.415
Player 5: 725 PA, .261/.331/.417
Player 6: 707 PA, .260/.331/.416
Player 7: 690 PA, .260/.331/.417
Player 8: 673 PA, .259/.330/.414
Player 9: 655 PA, .260/.330/.415

(The standard deviation of runs per season is about 77, a rather large number. More on this later.)

Thus, the program baseline for an average major-league lineup given the absence of auxiliary game factors is 785 runs. Of course, that says absolutely nothing practical. There’s no such thing as a major-league average lineup, much less any team with nine identical hitters. However, it does provide a baseline for the program.

To start addressing some more practical problems, changes to the players in the lineup must be made. In order to minimize the difference between the new players' output and the old, the new lineup will attempt to sum up closely to the old. In essence, home-run power removed from one hitter will be added to another. I’ll also generate a group of players comprising a typical major-league lineup, not quite the Red Sox, yet not the Diamondbacks:

Player 1: .305/.361/.346
Player 2: .305/.361/.346
Player 3: .318/.398/.511
Player 4: .274/.350/.463
Player 5: .274/.350/.463
Player 6: .276/.334/.437
Player 7: .241/.325/.321
Player 8: .241/.325/.321
Player 9: .106/.166/.176

Players 1 and 2 are the higher on-base percentage players with little power; Player 3 is the big slugger; Players 4 and 5 are the more typical middle-of-the-lineup power hitters; Player 6 is a slightly less powerful hitter with a slightly higher average; Players 7 and 8 are the bottom fillers with little power but respectable OBP; and Player 9 is a pitcher (we’ll play NL for now, though it should be noted that using the DH in finding the average ML player does make this a slightly more robust NL lineup). Again, this team’s total probability of each batting outcome is the same as the major-league average team above, just disbursed more normally among the players. Running the program with this lineup, in the order listed above yields the following results:

Minimum Runs: 665
Mean Runs: 801
Maximum Runs: 934

From these results, we can see that this lineup does slightly better than the previous version, to the tune of 16 runs on average. Thus, conventional lineup structure, at least so far, seems to improve upon theoretical lineup structure slightly.

Now it’s time to start mixing things up and having a little fun. In an effort to generate an optimal lineup structure, the first step is to verify some of the basic underlying principles. First, the idea that players with higher AVG, OBP or SLG should be higher in the lineup can easily be tested. To avoid tainting the results, each player will have the same stats except for the stat being tested. For example, when testing AVG, each player will have the same OBP and SLG. The program will be given six different lineups, two for each of three “teams." Each of the three teams will have one statistic in which they all differ and the other two will remain the same. These three teams will be analyzed twice, one with the variant statistic in descending order and once in ascending order. Further, the range of the difference in the variant statistic will be closely mapped to actual major league distribution. So despite the occasional Bonds, the program won’t have anyone with a .605 OBP.

After running each lineup, the program produced the following results. Below are the minimum number of runs, the mean, the maximum, and the 25th and 75th quartiles. From the numbers, a fair idea of the curve of each lineup can be gathered.


Lineup Min Quartile Mean Quartile Max

Avg Desc 672 752 780 806 923
Avg Asc 662 755 782 808 919

Obp Desc 705 790 818 846 947
Obp Asc 660 762 792 821 926

Slg Desc 676 762 790 816 912
Slg Asc 656 747 777 805 926

To maintain the continuity of the two control statistics, the three different “teams” were not equal, so it’s important not to compare across statistics. However, comparing the same teams with the different lineups is revealing. The two lineups with variant AVG produced nearly identical results, indicating that a player’s batting average has little impact on lineup performance. However, stacking a lineup with respect to SLG and, to a greater extent, OBP does seem to result in an increased chance of run scoring.

Another tenet of lineup structure is grouping or bunching better players together. Generating lineups to test this is very simple: a team is created with only two different kinds of players, six average players and three superstars. The first iteration will have the superstars batting second, fifth and eighth. The second will have them batting third, fifth and seventh. The third will have them fourth, fifth and sixth. By keeping them balanced around the middle of the lineup, the effects of having better players higher in the order should be reduced.

The following results came back:


Lineup Min Quartile Mean Quartile Max

Not bunched (2,5,8) 792 952 985 1017 1154
Somewhat bunched (3,5,7) 857 953 986 1019 1136
Very bunched (4,5,6) 824 962 994 1026 1173

Looking at the quartiles and the mean, it’s clear that bunching doesn’t take much effect until the players are actually batting sequentially. Even then, however, the effect at the mean is fewer than 10 runs.

Getting back to that average lineup that scored 801 runs (with a minimum of 665 and a max of 934), we can quickly test some more theories about lineup construction. First, let’s look at Tony LaRussa’s infamous movement of the pitcher to the eighth spot in the lineup:

LaRussa’s Gambit:

Minimum Runs: 673
Mean Runs: 803
Maximum Runs: 947

Not much difference to speak of; though the difference is slight, all three metrics adjust slightly upward. Next, let’s try the idea that players with high OBP should be moved to the top of the lineup regardless of their power numbers, to give them the most plate appearances while using fewer outs:

The Bonds Opening:

Minimum Runs: 670
Mean Runs: 797
Maximum Runs: 934

While the difference is again slight, this measure seems to have decreased the potency of the lineup, though it should be noted that the hypothetical lineup doesn’t have a standout OBP player to the degree of Bonds, and its initial structure was already quite close to a descending OBP strategy.

It would be interesting to add things like double plays, stolen bases and baserunning skills to the program, but I’ll save that for a follow up. At this point, the most interesting conclusion to me is just how wide the runs scored results set is for identical lineups. For the initial average lineup the standard deviation was 77 runs; the distribution for other lineups were much closer to 40. The implications of this is that even if a general manager knows exactly what each player is going to hit in a given season, the 95% confidence range (typically two standard deviations) is about 160 runs. This is something that we don’t talk about too much, but think about that: you know exactly how each player is going to hit this year and your team could win 84 games or they could win 100. That's just statistics for you. Yes, 65% of the time they’re going to win between 88 and 96, but keep that in mind when you go back at the end of the year to review preseason predictions.

With regards to lineup structure, this was far from exhaustive research on the subject, but it appears that bunching better players together and sorting by descending OBP yields the best results for run scoring with similar lineups. However, the differences between those lineups and the traditional lineup structure are minimal. It’s entirely possible that adding factors such as steals, extra bases and left-right alternation may make enough of a difference to counteract losses in OBP towards the top of the lineup or bunching of the better hitters.

Back to the Boston question: will Renteria be a good #2 hitter in Boston this year? Renteria will be a good hitter. If he bats second, then he’ll be a good #2 hitter, but it doesn’t seem to make terribly too much difference where he bats.

James Click is an author of Baseball Prospectus. You can contact James by clicking here or click here to see James's other articles.

[st.cronin]

That's just one of many I've seen over the years.

[timmyw3]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

ok, here's your answer right there. it's coed. no use banging your head or keeping yourself up at night. not to sound sexist, cuz there's some very talented female softball players, but if these chicks with no skill are playing in company softball it's probably cuz they just want to have fun and mingle with the guys.

Amen. In corporate co-ed softball you might as well not even bother keeping stats and worrying about batting order and doing your best Joe Torre impersonation because you're ultimately wasting your time.

I'm captain of our corporate co-ed team and the main job I have is making sure someone picks up the beer. It also seems that the teams who do keep stats and take it seriously are the teams who see half their players defect to other teams the following year.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by timmyw3

I'm captain of our corporate co-ed team and the main job I have is making sure someone picks up the beer.

i like you.

[Vince]

I'd say that if you are trying to maximize runs and such, that I would stagger your worst players at the end of the order. Put your worst players batting 6, 7 and 9. That way you have someone at the 8 slot who isn't an 'automatic' out.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Sports Illustrated did an article on batting order theory a month or two ago... it may still be on their site.

I found the SI article in an online database and the article st.cronin posted was far more informative. The SI article basically just rehashed traditional ideas, like what Sack, Vince, and travis said, and those three were about as equally entertaining.

[Barkeep49]

Do some googling on the subject exploring Click's research I found this post

If you get the best run production by clustering your high OBP hitters (and putting them near the top of the lineup), I wonder if the folk wisdom of having your best hitters at #3 and #4 is good wisdom. Based on my (hastily-put-together) conclusions based on James Click's results, the best lineup might be to put your best hitter (best OBP) at the #3 spot, 2nd best hitter at #4, 3rd best at #2, 4th best at #5, 5th best at #1, 6th best at #6, 7th best at #9, 8th best at #7 and 9th best at #8. That way, OBP gradually changes through the lineup; the best hitters are clustered around the #3 spot.

This seems to make sense to me. So the question is how do I use it? I am currently coaching a little league team and the way it works is that we bat all of our players, which happens to be 11. The playoffs are approaching and so I would love to give them any advantage that I can. With 11 players should we change the spot that we start the cluster around do you think or should we keep the cluster starting at 3rd meaning we would do
5th highest OBP, 3, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 9, 7? This seems to make sense. Obviously our sample size for OBP isn't going to be as "true" of a result as in MLB but it seems like this could be a good basis for determining a lineup.

[KevinNU7]

Here's the ideal lineup for softball

1. Best hitter
2. 2nd Best hitter
3. 3rd Best hitter
4. 4th Best hitter
5. 5th Best hitter
6. 6th Best hitter
7. 7th Best hitter
8. 8th Best hitter
9. 9th Best hitter

[Hammer755]

I would say that not a single theory about batting order has any relevance whatsoever to softball. The best thing to do in softball is get your best players the most AB.

[Travis]

Well, if it's co-ed, then it has to be asked, what are the rules pertaining to the lineup construction?

For example, I play in a mixed league where we have to have 7 guys in the field and 3 girls. In our batting order, we can't have more than 3 guys in a row at any given point. We usually try to have 1 extra guy and girl at each game in case of injuries, and everybody on your roster hits, as we have unlimited substitutions.

So far I've found that our best lineup is to hit 3 guys, girl, 3 guys, girl, 2 guys, 2 girls.

We tried going 2 guys, girls, 2 guys, girl, 2 guys, girl, 2 guys, girl, but our results aren't as good.

I attribute this mostly to the fact that we are loaded with singles hitters, with only a couple of bombers on the team (hitting 3 and 7 respectively, at the tail end of each of the 3 guy spots). We have our #2 and #3 best girls hitting back to back at the end, and usually one of the two has been getting on, so we're lucking out there some.

Again, depending on what the ratio is in your league, the strategy will change greatly.

[judicial clerk]

damn cthomer5000, isn't it enough that you crush all those losers in the IHOF? (I just got my copy of the IHOF preview)

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Do some googling on the subject exploring Click's research I found this post



This seems to make sense to me. So the question is how do I use it? I am currently coaching a little league team and the way it works is that we bat all of our players, which happens to be 11. The playoffs are approaching and so I would love to give them any advantage that I can. With 11 players should we change the spot that we start the cluster around do you think or should we keep the cluster starting at 3rd meaning we would do
5th highest OBP, 3, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 9, 7? This seems to make sense. Obviously our sample size for OBP isn't going to be as "true" of a result as in MLB but it seems like this could be a good basis for determining a lineup.

Not sure what the entertainment level will be on this , but here's my two cents.

Other than OPS or OBP, take a look at the tendencies each kid (what age group are you coaching?) seems to have when hitting. If you have a kid that hits a majority of ground balls to the right side, even if they are usually hot shots, you're going to want to hit him behind a guy that tends to hit doubles. A guy that tends to hit long deep fly balls or who tends to pull/push can usually fit into a spot behind/ahead of another player who tends to hit in a way that the two will mesh. There will always be obvious guys to slot into the order, but it's the guys who aren't great hitters that will make a team if the manager can find a way to hide their shortcomings and capitalize on their hitting strengths.

The most important thing about a batting order is fine tuning it with what you have to work with. Knowledge of your own players and the situations that they'll tend to find themselves in can give you the answers you're looking for.

[Ramzavail]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Ok guys, this is softball so some key elements:
3. Teams being able to actually pull of a double-play are pretty rare

I turned 2 this week, and 4 on the season, in 6 games. I am a terror at the 2b pivot spot.

[ScottVib]

If your league is coed, but plays by Men's league (no lineup requirement) rules. (Which is what my league did) This is what I found worked best.

Make sure you spread out the girls... you don't want to have the start of a rally squashed by 4 outs stacked at the bottom of the order.

We'd generally go:

1) Fast good contact guy
2) Contact guy/Best Girl (if possible a decent spot to stick a girl who can hit decently)
3) 2nd Best Hitter
4) Best Hitter
5) Good Hitter
6) Girl/Weaker Hitter
7) Decent Hitter
8) Good Hitter Typically choose someone Slow Can flip with 9 if you need to bat another girl 10th.
9) Girl/Weaker Hitter
10) Who's left.

Logic/Reasoning.
1st guy gets on base and is fast so anything the 2nd person does should advance them. 3rd guy with a nice hit, 4th and 5th hitters are the meat of the order. 6th batter is your 1st out (ok girl, one who might get the ball out of the infield and/or is fast enough to avoid the double play/preferably with a good enough eye to take an occaisional walk). 7th guy tries to clean up whats left, hopefully he has a little speed, and if he fails the 8th guy does so (and/or plates the 7th guy). I put a slow guy 8th because chances are he'll never get around the bases anyway as you stick weaker people 9th and 10th in the order.

In this type of league make sure the girls understand the value of waiting for their pitch and taking a walk.

[Karlifornia]

For softball, here's how I set my lineup:

1.Little fast squirt from accounts payable
2.fat guy
3.fatter guy
4.fattest guy
5.guy who has never hit the ball
6.most attractive girl
7.second most attractive girl
8.fat girl
9.the boss