Officer delays family racing to see dying mom

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Well he never said she was from England, just that after studying here that he thought it was an English thing.

I guess I'm missing something. None of that makes any sense to me. Because she speaks English?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I agree, but until I've had a friend executed by the police, it's tough to put myself in their shoes.

Yet you find it so easy to put yourself in the shoes of a police officer - to the extent that it apparently should have been easy to "weed out" that Oakland cop before that incident. (and 4 cops murders is "what happens" when they didn't).

The thugs in Oakland that protested violently and celebrated the murders of other human beings is barbaric, sub-human, and their behaviors lead to more hate and violence. The Oakland cop deserves blame in that equation too, of course (though we'll never know what was going through his head). But the other murdered officers don't.

I don't feel I need to give them a free pass just because they were emotional.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I don't agree with zero tolerance for most things. I guess I look at it this way, if I endanger other people with my actions I'm the one responsible, thus I am going to try and not break laws or rules of the road. But if I break a law because of mitigating factors such as fearing for my life, I'm going to accept the consequences of my actions. Do I wish the law and courts forgive me breaking the law, yes, but I shouldn't expect it.

Then I guess that's really the only point on which we disagree. I think you should be able to expect receiving no punishment in Moats' situation, my situation, and your situation. I think it would be disgusting to be issued a traffic ticket in those instances, regardless of the letter of the law.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Yet you find it so easy to put yourself in the shoes of a police officer - to the extent that it apparently should have been easy to "weed out" that Oakland cop before that incident. (and 4 cops murders is "what happens" when they didn't).

The thugs in Oakland that protested violently and celebrated the murders of other human beings is barbaric, sub-human, and their behaviors lead to more hate and violence. The Oakland cop deserves blame in that equation too, of course.

And I'm saying that policing themselves over the years may have stopped a situation like this from occuring. The city has had a people vs cops element for a long time and that didn't happen by accident. Those people view the cops as enemies, and when you see them executing people, it's easy to see why.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And I'm saying that policing themselves over the years may have stopped a situation like this from occuring.

How? What would you have done that would guarantee a police force with no "bad seeds?"

We don't know what was going through that Oakland officer's head, if anything. With officers, we want to assume the worst, because it empowers us over the authority that we resent so much.

Same with this officer. Maybe he just made a mistake. He probably feels like shit. Let's just assume that he's a racist though, with no evidence to support that. That satisifies that inner hatred of authority also.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

How? What would you have done that would guarantee a police force with no "bad seeds?"

Maybe a cop doesn't think he can execute someone if he knows that he'll be held accountable by his fellow officers.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Maybe a cop doesn't think he can execute someone if he knows that he'll be held accountable by his fellow officers.

Wasn't he arrested? Charged with murder? Resigned before charges were even filed? I'm so confused.

Is your theory, honestly, that he conciously killed that guy, thinking that he would get away with it because he was a police officer?

I guess that's theoretically possible, if he was mentally disabled, but that's hardly the most reasonable explanation. It's definitely the explanation that would allow people to feel justified destroying property though, so I can understand why it would be so appealing.

Officers really don't want to kill people. Even if it's justified, it puts their career at tremendous risk. Nobody does that just for kicks.


What about the officer in this case? Do you think he just wanted to hassle black people?

And back to the first question - what exactly does a police department do to 100% ensure everyone feels that if they execute someone, they'll be held accountable? And further than that, how do you get rid of all bad seeds? You've said that officer murders are "what happens" when you don't weed out bad seeds - I'm sure they would love to know how to do that (beyond firing)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Wasn't he arrested? Charged with murder? Resigned before charges were even filed? I'm so confused.

Is your theory, honestly, that he conciously killed that guy, thinking that he would get away with it because he was a police officer?

Would that have happened if a couple cell phone videos didn't make it on the internet? The cops did scamper around illegally confiscating cell phones after the shooting. I'm sure they weren't doing that for "their investigation".

[stevew]

I do wonder if the Oakland cops that got murdered by that monster this week were somewhat hesitant of being too aggressive due to the prior incident. Sucky situation when a guy chooses to shoot 4. At least they killed the bastard before he could leave any more kids fatherless.

[molson]

I said this in the other thread but doctors screw up and kill thousands of people a year, and there's never criminal charges.

When an officer screws up, it's front page news - even when the issue is just attitude. When it's a mistake that takes someone's life, it's burn-down-the-city-time.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Wasn't he arrested? Charged with murder? Resigned before charges were even filed? I'm so confused.

Is your theory, honestly, that he conciously killed that guy, thinking that he would get away with it because he was a police officer?

I guess that's theoretically possible, if he was mentally disabled, but that's hardly the most reasonable explanation. It's definitely the explanation that would allow people to feel justified destroying property though, so I can understand why it would be so appealing.

Officers really don't want to kill people. Even if it's justified, it puts their career at tremendous risk. Nobody does that just for kicks.


What about the officer in this case? Do you think he just wanted to hassle black people?

And back to the first question - what exactly does a police department do to 100% ensure everyone feels that if they execute someone, they'll be held accountable? And further than that, how do you get rid of all bad seeds? You've said that officer murders are "what happens" when you don't weed out bad seeds - I'm sure they would love to know how to do that (beyond firing)

I don't know his explanation for killing the guy. I do know that it isn't the first time a cop has abused his power and killed or beaten someone, and it won't be the last. This isn't unchartered territory in this country. My guess is any number of reasons for it, just as there are any number of reasons people kill each other.

I do believe there is an element to these officers that feel they can get away with anything. You can tell from the Moats' video that he feels he has the power to "screw him over" and arrest him for a minor traffic violation. I can't imagine that this is taught in the academy, so I would have to assume that he felt no one would really find out (or care). His mistake was that Moats' was an athlete known in the area and had a rather compelling story that the media ate up. I'd imagine this kind of stuff goes on all the time with nothing being done. I doubt this is the first time this officer has gone on a power trip.

As for what the police department can do in the future, I'd say stop covering shit up. The officers in the BART shooting went around and illegally confiscated cell phones for a reason. Act upon complaints properly and hold fair investigations. In Chicago 17 of the 10,000 complaints ended in disciplinary action. They had some officers with over 100 complaints for police brutality and did nothing. Show the public that you are serious about eliminating the bad seeds in your department and they will give more leeway when bad things do happen.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

... and they will give more leeway when bad things do happen.

I started to say you really can't be that naive ... but I imagine you can.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

I said this in the other thread but doctors screw up and kill thousands of people a year, and there's never criminal charges.

When an officer screws up, it's front page news - even when the issue is just attitude. When it's a mistake that takes someone's life, it's burn-down-the-city-time.

Huge difference in a doctor making a human error during a surgery and an officer going out of his way to hurt someone for his own pleasure. If a doctor is criminally negligent, they are charged. They are also open to massive civil lawsuits for their mistakes.

Doctors and hospitals make the front page all the time too. I can remember a recent case of a lady dying in a waiting room that made national headlines.

Woman dies in hospital waiting room - 7/02/08 - New York News and Tri-State News - 7online.com

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Huge difference in a doctor making a human error during a surgery and an officer going out of his way to hurt someone for his own pleasure.

That's kind of my point, when police screw up, we assume it's for their "own pleasure", because that makes us feel big and defiant against authority.

A surely, sometimes cops do that, and if that can be proven, the consquences should be harsh. But it's assumed that's it's pleasure EVERY time, and that's just not even logical.

There's assumptions that the officer in this case was on a power trip, or racist, and basically doing this for fun. Without a pattern of conduct, maybe we should assume that he screwed up?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

That's kind of my point, when police screw up, we assume it's for their "own pleasure", because that makes us feel big and defiant against authority.

A surely, sometimes cops do that, and if that can be proven, the consquences should be harsh. But it's assumed that's it's pleasure EVERY time, and that's just not even logical.

There's assumptions that the officer in this case was on a power trip, or racist, and basically doing this for fun. Without a pattern of conduct, maybe we should assume that he screwed up?

That's what I've been saying. The bad cops put the seed of doubt into the minds of people when good cops have accidents.

In Chicago, there is no doubt incidents that are complete accidents made by the police. But people are skeptical here because of the storied history of brutality, lies, and coverups.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Six pages and nobody pointed out to Noop that Emily Dickinson wasn't English? We can get outraged about police asshattery but not poor historical literature understanding???

English Major? Emily Dickson and those of her day took their social cues from Europe. I believe (and correct if I am wrong) that America started to do her own thing a little later with Henry James. (Daisy Miller not him per se)

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by molson

If you run a red light, you're saving somewhere between 0 and 60 seconds, at the risk of losing 15+ minutes via traffic stop, and causing an accident (and if you run multiple lights and speed, your odds of geting stopped, or causing an accident go up). If you're under stress then maybe you're not capable of making that calcuation, and that's fine, but it's not anybody else's fault when your silly risk doesn't pay off.

I'd be cool with never letting Motes drive when his mother in law is dying as he clearly can't handle it just as long as the officer is never put in a position where he has to rapidly access situations and react accordingly.

I don't think they should fire him but I'd put him on something other than street patrol.

[Axxon]

Oh, and I don't necessarily think that the officer is a bad person or an asshole. I just think he's a bad fit at his current job.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by molson

I said this in the other thread but doctors screw up and kill thousands of people a year, and there's never criminal charges.

When an officer screws up, it's front page news - even when the issue is just attitude. When it's a mistake that takes someone's life, it's burn-down-the-city-time.

How do you propose we know when it's burn-down-the-city-time if we stop using this as a rally point?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's what I've been saying. The bad cops put the seed of doubt into the minds of people when good cops have accidents.

In Chicago, there is no doubt incidents that are complete accidents made by the police. But people are skeptical here because of the storied history of brutality, lies, and coverups.

And of course, routine traffic stops that end up with multiple cops dead put the seed of doubt into the minds of cops that pull people over for routine traffic stops...

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

And of course, routine traffic stops that end up with multiple cops dead put the seed of doubt into the minds of cops that pull people over for routine traffic stops...

And yet the vast majority manage to overcome that and act in a professional manner countless times every day. This guy couldn't.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Axxon

And yet the vast majority manage to overcome that and act in a professional manner countless times every day. This guy couldn't.

Sorry, thought we were switching to a more general discussion based on this. There seemed to be developing another trend of forgiving people who act like jerks to cops because they are afraid something might happen, but not offering the same courtesy to cops who are confronted with such behavior who have very short timeframes to decide if there life is being threatened. I'm tired of the double standard.

Yes, the cops should be held to a higher standard, yes this guy should have backed down late in this tape, and yes sometimes cops go on power trips, and none of that excuses people ignoring the cop's instructions and deciding they can do whatever they want.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Except he did let them get away and it doesn't sound like he even made an attempt to stop the others, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

And to bring this back up, I'll point out that it's since come out he may have drawn his gun, so he did make such an attempt and clearly had an initial reaction that something was going really wrong here.

[larrymcg421]

But the "danger" scenario is just not a valid argument in this situation. If the cop really thought the guy was a danger, then maybe his actions would make some sense. But that's clearly not the case here. He never pats the guy down, puts cuffs on him, or even tells him to stand still and put his hands ont he car. There are friends of Moats that are walking around the scene and the cop doesn't even know who they are.

So yes, I'd be willing to cut a cop some slack who thought his life was in danger, but this cop knew pretty early on that his life was not in danger and just used his power to be a dick. Or I should say, if he did think the guy was a danger, then he's an even worse cop than I thought and should definitely be fired because he didn't even take routine steps to lock down the scene.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

But the "danger" scenario is just not a valid argument in this situation. If the cop really thought the guy was a danger, then maybe his actions would make some sense. But that's clearly not the case here. He never pats the guy down, puts cuffs on him, or even tells him to stand still and put his hands ont he car. There are friends of Moats that are walking around the scene and the cop doesn't even know who they are.

So yes, I'd be willing to cut a cop some slack who thought his life was in danger, but this cop knew pretty early on that his life was not in danger and just used his power to be a dick. Or I should say, if he did think the guy was a danger, then he's an even worse cop than I thought and should definitely be fired because he didn't even take routine steps to lock down the scene.

larry wins the thread.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

larry wins the thread.

+1

[gstelmack]

It's pretty clear he did a routine traffic stop, got nervous when a bunch of people jumped out of the car, realised there was no danger, then taught them a lesson.

Look, when a cop pulls you over, stay in the car until he comes over, then explain what you need to. I still think there's a pretty darn good chance that he'd have been in the hospital a lot sooner if he had done that. And if he hadn't been, and the cop had still jerked him around, this thread ends 5 pages ago. Jump out of the car, try to run away, what do you expect?

And yes, the cop should have backed off when the nurse and other cop came out. I agree 100% he deserves disciplining for the end of this incident. The only reason I'm still here arguing (and I'm about to stop, I know it's getting circular, no one will change their mind) is I can't believe people think it's okay for these three people to jump out of the car and two of them try to run off when a cop pulls them over. I'm still trying to get my head around the acceptance of that, especially the belief that some cops are jerks means you don't have to listen to them when they pull you over.

[jeff061]

I can't believe people think it's okay for these three people to jump out of the car and two of them try to run off when a cop pulls them over. I'm still trying to get my head around the acceptance of that, especially the belief that some cops are jerks means you don't have to listen to them when they pull you over

I still can't believe anyone has trouble seeing this from the point of view of a family with a mother about to die any minute. Either you are incapable of empathy or are simply just able to react calmly and logically when a close one is about to die.

Either way, congrats on your cold heart. You'd likely make a fine cop, apparently.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I still can't believe anyone has trouble seeing this from the point of view of a family with a mother about to die any minute. Either you are incapable of empathy or are simply just able to react calmly and logically when a close one is about to die.

Either way, congrats on your cold heart. You'd likely make a fine cop, apparently.

A cop car turning on its lights behind me is likely going to give me a cold dose of reality. I guess I just have more respect for authority than a lot of you. Stop and explain the situation to the cop. Look to him for help rather than as the enemy. Don't jump out of the car and try to ignore him like the woman did. Cop car with lights on = stop, period. If you're really in trouble, he can help, possibly even get you there faster.

And maybe that's the fundamental cultural difference. I see the cops as on my side, even the one time I got pulled over for speeding (I was), or the one accident I was in as a teenager that was technically my fault. Lots of folks here argue about the cops as the enemy, and their initial reaction to a police presences is as the enemy to them. I think that reaction just helps feed the negative cycle that leads to incidents like this.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

It's pretty clear he did a routine traffic stop, got nervous when a bunch of people jumped out of the car, realised there was no danger, then taught them a lesson.

The bolded bit is why he needs to be fired. This is not his job nor his right as a police officer on a traffic stop or any other routine assignment. Somehow in this country we've handed over total authority to the Police force. They are not empowered to CONTROL society, they are empowered to enforce the law. Police intercession should not be a proactive system of taking action without necessity.

This cop knew what was going on as soon as the first 2 minutes had passed, he went above and beyond his authority when he detained moats after that. he wasn't being a cop he was being a prick.

The Police are around to protect citizens and enforce the law. Teaching someone a lesson isn't part of that. The image of a power tripping cop is far more prevelant than that of the honest community supporting one. Thats something that needs to change. People don't deserve respect because they put on a uniform, respect is still earned by fulfilling the postition that uniform entails with honor and decency.

not sure where I was going here but I get this image from Molson and gst that "oh god its a cop I should get on teh ground and bow and scrape non threateningly so they don't throw me in jail" and thats not at all what a police officer should expect (yes I know its hyperbole, live with it)

Officers must be able to deal with a distraught individual or group of them without losing their cool AT ALL. yes they are human too, but if you cannot manage to do that perhaps you should not be a police officer. it takes more than being a badass with an attitude to be a Policeman.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

And maybe that's the fundamental cultural difference. I see the cops as on my side, even the one time I got pulled over for speeding (I was), or the one accident I was in as a teenager that was technically my fault. Lots of folks here argue about the cops as the enemy, and their initial reaction to a police presences is as the enemy to them. I think that reaction just helps feed the negative cycle that leads to incidents like this.

You have a valid point here, but the problem stems from corrupt officers at its root. If Police had never given the populace the reason to suspect they were just on power trips or taking advantage of their positon of authority then I doubt this perception would exist.

its the proverbial "one bad apple" syndrome over centuries of authoritarian groups in all societies. power corrupts. Society's memory is hard to change. a few really bad incidents and stories stick with the populace longer than the story of the cops that do their job with integrity and never get noticed for it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Sorry, thought we were switching to a more general discussion based on this. There seemed to be developing another trend of forgiving people who act like jerks to cops because they are afraid something might happen, but not offering the same courtesy to cops who are confronted with such behavior who have very short timeframes to decide if there life is being threatened. I'm tired of the double standard.

Yes, the cops should be held to a higher standard, yes this guy should have backed down late in this tape, and yes sometimes cops go on power trips, and none of that excuses people ignoring the cop's instructions and deciding they can do whatever they want.

Good post. People really just resent authority, and EXPLODE over any opportunity for bring it down a notch. If gives them the moral authority to defy authority, which is like some kind of drug. The national outrage over this one cop's poor attitude is going to embolden countless others to exhibit asshattery in the weeks to come.

Maybe if those Oakland cops had pulled their guns a little sooner they'd be alive today. Next time they will (perhaps when they pull over a black man who may or may not want them dead), they'll make a split second error, and the cycle will continue.

Police officers are human, nobody can ever really grasp that. And when they make mistakes (which is going to be fairly common, when there's almost 3/4 of a million of them in the united states), the first assumptions are always about racism, conspiracies, power trips. That gives a "high" to accuse them of such things. Everybody wants to be a martyr. If gives their lives meaning to feel abused by authority.

Cops should of course be held to higher standard, but again, there's close to 750,000 and the resources don't exactly allow them to be recruited from elite military programs and Ivy League Universities (though there are some from those places). It's impossible to find 750,000 perfect Americans for the role. Occasionally one will be VERY bad, even criminal, and very often, they're going to make mistakes.

MANY times, they'll make mistakes that show they're not cut out to be officers, and they're gone. It's a high stress job with high turnover and little security until you've proven yourself. It's EXTREMELY difficult to find the "perfect 750,000". Some like Rainmaker seem to think that without finding that perfect number, officer murders is just what's going "to happen". I promise you though, that if cities and police chiefs across the country could find that perfect 750,000 and send them out there every day, they would.

If it makes you feel like a big shot to feel like you're being held down by the man because you don't like the way an officer handled a traffic stop, that's your right I guess. But it might help to remember that 30 minutes earlier, that cop might have been dealing with a domestic violence situation, a traffic fatality, or a dead baby. A tiny bit of politeness and appreciation and understanding goes a LONG way.

[jeff061]

This is a very compressed story. Yes you are going to think I'm lying or left things out, I didn't. I'll ignore you saying otherwise. I think I've gone over this in more detail before.

Couple years ago, I got pulled over accused of speeding at 120+ two weeks prior to this stop. The cop actually walked up to my window and the first words exchanged were "Are you a fucking idiot", yeah I was pretty damn confused. They towed my car pulled my license indefinitely (turned out to be 3 months) before it got to court, they can do that in MA. Depending on the outcome in court they can pull it longer and fine you.

When court day came my lawyer met with the judge, cops and DA. The judge lectured the cops for abusing their power and wasting taxpayers time and money to settle a grudge that was formed on evidence that was nothing but a make and model of car. No plates, id of driver, nothing.

So yeah, pardon me if I'm not a big fan of people who inevitably become cops. I was considering suing, but I was just glad it was over with. Hard to consult for a living without a license.

[Schmidty]

I'll put the combatants in this thread into D&D terms:

One side is Lawful Neutral. They follow the law to a T, without regard for compassion or flexibility. They are always in the right because they follow a rigid code that leaves no room for personal judgement in any situation.

One side is Chaotic Good. They don't feel that the law should be more important than what they feel is just and fair. They are a bit volatile because they mean well, and follow a individual code of conduct, and that can often put them at odds with authority.

One side is Chaotic Neutral. I FUCKING HATE COPS!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[molson]

Originally Posted by jeff061

This is a very compressed story. Yes you are going to think I'm lying or left things out, I didn't. I'll ignore you saying otherwise. I think I've gone over this in more detail before.

Couple years ago, I got pulled over accused of speeding at 120+ two weeks prior to this stop. The cop actually walked up to my window and the first words exchanged were "Are you a fucking idiot", yeah I was pretty damn confused. They towed my car pulled my license indefinitely (turned out to be 3 months) before it got to court, they can do that in MA. Depending on the outcome in court they can pull it longer and fine you.

When court day came my lawyer met with the judge, cops and DA. The judge lectured the cops for abusing their power and wasting taxpayers time and money to settle a grudge that was formed on evidence that was nothing but a make and model of car. No plates, id of driver, nothing.

So yeah, pardon me if I'm not a big fan of people who inevitably become cops. I was considering suing, but I was just glad it was over with. Hard to consult for a living without a license.

If I encountered a black person that didn't treat me well, it would be pretty easy to just hate all black people. If I had a predisposition to hate black people, it would be even easier.

A black man murdered 4 white/hispanic cops in Oakland. Black men have committed many other crimes across the country, including high profile ones. Using the RainMaker/Jeff01/others logic in this thread, I would be completely justified in not trusting black people, assuming that they're going to mug me when I see them come down the street, etc. Maybe, if blacks can't get their shit together, facing racism is just "what happens".

Or, you could try to be a bigger person and the see the world beyond your own prejudices.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'll put the combatants in this thread into D&D terms:

One side is Lawful Neutral. They follow the law to a T, without regard for compassion or flexibility. They are always in the right because they follow a rigid code that leaves no room for personal judgement in any situation.

One side is Chaotic Good. They don't feel that the law should be more important than what they feel is just and fair. They are a bit volatile because they mean well, and follow a individual code of conduct, and that can often put them at odds with authority.

One side is Chaotic Neutral. I FUCKING HATE COPS!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

There's one between Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Good, that think that normal, rational people can use reasonable judgment and commit minor crimes on occasion without being bad people, but should still expect to be subject to police inconvenience and perhaps a small fine, understanding that since their own reason might not matter two shits to the rest of the world, a fairer system involves across the board enforcement, leaving people to make their own individual judgments about whether these tiny penalties are "worth it".

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by molson

There's one between Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Good, that think that normal, rational people can use reasonable judgment and commit minor crimes on occasion without being bad people, but should still expect to be subject to police inconvenience and perhaps a small fine, understanding that since their own reason might not matter two shits to the rest of the world, a fairer system involves across the board enforcement, leaving people to make their own individual judgments about whether these tiny penalties are "worth it".

I think you took my post a bit too seriously.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I think you took my post a bit too seriously.

Maybe, but I thought you summed things up pretty well.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by molson

Maybe, but I thought you summed things up pretty well.

Ok, well in that case, take me as seriously as you want!!!!

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by molson

If I encountered a black person that didn't treat me well, it would be pretty easy to just hate all black people. If I had a predisposition to hate black people, it would be even easier.

A black man murdered 4 white/hispanic cops in Oakland. Black men have committed many other crimes across the country, including high profile ones. Using the RainMaker/Jeff01/others logic in this thread, I would be completely justified in not trusting black people, assuming that they're going to mug me when I see them come down the street, etc. Maybe, if blacks can't get their shit together, facing racism is just "what happens".

Or, you could try to be a bigger person and the see the world beyond your own prejudices.

As I've stated before. I've done a lot of work at police departments across a couple states, I've spent a lot of time with police on and off duty. They are all a clone of each other and insecure children when their uniform is off.

Edit to clarify, I guess. Cops that fucked me over were staties. Cops that I worked with were local. I haven't seen any staties off the road.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Someone who deals with inner city crime could easily use the same logic to denigrate blacks. You're using personal anecdotal data to validate generalizations.

[molson]

Originally Posted by jeff061

As I've stated before. I've done a lot of work at police departments across a couple states, I've spent a lot of time with police on and off duty. They are all a clone of each other and insecure children when their uniform is off.

The proposition that "they are all a clone of each other" is just plain stupid when you're talking about a group of 750,000 people.

I've been pulled over in northeast several times without incident. I've also worked with police officers on and off duty who are incredibly committed to public service. That doesn't prove that every member of a group of 750,000 has the same the exact characteristics, of course. But your contention to the contrary is mind-boggling, illogical, and shows a deep-rooted irrational hatred.

I mean seriously, every single one sucks? 750,000? That would require incredibly successful targeted recruiting, and perhaps discipline if an officer displayed a good attitude, or did something heroic. Have you met all 750,000? This is like that poster claiming that more than 50% of people associated with New England are assholes, and trying to make that argument literally.

[MJ4H]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[jeff061]

I didn't work with all 750,000. Just a few dozen.

I don't think there is any real data. Hard to quantify nice and douche into meaningful statistics. If that was possible we probably all wouldn't look so dumb arguing this ridiculous topic to death when we know we are never going to share opinions .

So I go by what I've seen and I've seen enough to form a relatively rigid opinion.

[TCY Junkie]

A cop cut me off 2 weeks ago and put his hand up to say he was sorry. My heart was in my throat because I thought I was screwed. Anyway, if it was reversed I would have must definitely got a ticket and deserved one. I'm not bitching, this is just life. Maybe he wrote himself out a ticket.

The last ticket I got the cop was probably one of the nicest guys I ever met. He said something about deer crossing the road and I needed to slow down. Then we started talking about deer hunting. He told me sorry but he had to give me a ticket and I told him sorry I made him do his job, I wasn't paying attention to my speed. Anyway, when I got back in the car my mom was laughing at me because the windows were down. I don't know why people don't like cops. You give them a little respect and most of them aren't dicks.

Was this lady that died in a car wreck or expected to get better? People shouldn't be running red lights.

[molson]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I didn't work with all 750,000. Just a few dozen.

I don't think there is any real data. Hard to quantify nice and douche into meaningful statistics. If that was possible we probably all wouldn't look so dumb arguing this ridiculous topic to death when we know we are never going to share opinions .

So I go by what I've seen and I've seen enough to form a relatively rigid opinion.

Once you hate any defined group of people, your mind will always find and exaggerate evidence to support that opinion. Your brain will also group them together to dehumanize them (i.e. your "clone" comment - people are much easier to hate when you take away their individuality) That's why racism can be so vicious and damaging to a society.

And also, when you decide you hate an entire group of people regardless of individual characteristics, they can tell, don't be all that shocked if many of them aren't a huge fan of yours. When it's an officer, of course, they still need to act professionally, but they'll know you don't like them, they'll not like you, you'll know they don't like you, and your prejudice will feed on itself.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Sorry, thought we were switching to a more general discussion based on this. There seemed to be developing another trend of forgiving people who act like jerks to cops because they are afraid something might happen, but not offering the same courtesy to cops who are confronted with such behavior who have very short timeframes to decide if there life is being threatened. I'm tired of the double standard.

Yes, the cops should be held to a higher standard, yes this guy should have backed down late in this tape, and yes sometimes cops go on power trips, and none of that excuses people ignoring the cop's instructions and deciding they can do whatever they want.

I can only say that I've worked jobs, including an 8 year on again, off again stint in the ER. I've been paid precisely because I keep my head when things are going wrong and I'd definitely not act like they did in that situation but you know what? In doing that, I've seen how people act when they're panicked and this was nowhere near off the chain in that category. Was it a bad decision? Yep, but do they deserve any blame for that? From where I'm sitting that's like blaming the short guy who can't reach the rope to pull himself out of the well. In general, people don't perform well under extreme stress and in this case neither of them did. The difference is that one of them is paid to perform and the other wasn't.

I'm saying that what they did wasn't smart at all but I'm not going to be the guy blaming them for anything just like honestly I'm really not blaming the officer. It's not a sign of weakness to realize your own weaknesses and his came to light that night. I'd bet he'd make a decent detective though or maybe even a IA guy given his distrust for other officers. Ok, last one was a tad bit sneaky.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

And to bring this back up, I'll point out that it's since come out he may have drawn his gun, so he did make such an attempt and clearly had an initial reaction that something was going really wrong here.

He had to draw his gun there and I didn't see him brandish it or anything. I think that part was fine. I don't think it showed that he thought something was really going wrong rather that this was the procedure to follow when this happens. His early read and reaction was fine and the gun played no more part IMHO.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Good post. People really just resent authority, and EXPLODE over any opportunity for bring it down a notch. If gives them the moral authority to defy authority, which is like some kind of drug. The national outrage over this one cop's poor attitude is going to embolden countless others to exhibit asshattery in the weeks to come.

Maybe if those Oakland cops had pulled their guns a little sooner they'd be alive today. Next time they will (perhaps when they pull over a black man who may or may not want them dead), they'll make a split second error, and the cycle will continue.

Police officers are human, nobody can ever really grasp that. And when they make mistakes (which is going to be fairly common, when there's almost 3/4 of a million of them in the united states), the first assumptions are always about racism, conspiracies, power trips. That gives a "high" to accuse them of such things. Everybody wants to be a martyr. If gives their lives meaning to feel abused by authority.

Cops should of course be held to higher standard, but again, there's close to 750,000 and the resources don't exactly allow them to be recruited from elite military programs and Ivy League Universities (though there are some from those places). It's impossible to find 750,000 perfect Americans for the role. Occasionally one will be VERY bad, even criminal, and very often, they're going to make mistakes.

MANY times, they'll make mistakes that show they're not cut out to be officers, and they're gone. It's a high stress job with high turnover and little security until you've proven yourself. It's EXTREMELY difficult to find the "perfect 750,000". Some like Rainmaker seem to think that without finding that perfect number, officer murders is just what's going "to happen". I promise you though, that if cities and police chiefs across the country could find that perfect 750,000 and send them out there every day, they would.

If it makes you feel like a big shot to feel like you're being held down by the man because you don't like the way an officer handled a traffic stop, that's your right I guess. But it might help to remember that 30 minutes earlier, that cop might have been dealing with a domestic violence situation, a traffic fatality, or a dead baby. A tiny bit of politeness and appreciation and understanding goes a LONG way.

And some people like to feel submissive to authority for one reason or another. They enjoy having less intelligent people dictate their lives and run their power trips on them.

My problem isn't that they can't bring in 750,000 competent officers, it's that they don't police themselves. When a cop breaks the rules or the law, he should be disciplined. This rarely happens in police departments. It's why you end up with cops that have hundreds of brutality complaints and no consequences. It's why they feel they are above the law.

Cops should be held to the highest standards of our society. They are in a position that leaves citizens vulnerable and can't be allowed to take advantage of that. Internal reviews should be the toughest out of any job in this country, but instead are the worst.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by molson

If I encountered a black person that didn't treat me well, it would be pretty easy to just hate all black people. If I had a predisposition to hate black people, it would be even easier.

A black man murdered 4 white/hispanic cops in Oakland. Black men have committed many other crimes across the country, including high profile ones. Using the RainMaker/Jeff01/others logic in this thread, I would be completely justified in not trusting black people, assuming that they're going to mug me when I see them come down the street, etc. Maybe, if blacks can't get their shit together, facing racism is just "what happens".

Or, you could try to be a bigger person and the see the world beyond your own prejudices.

Or to be a decent human being you could see what sort of reception you DO get and react accordingly. I suspect everyone of being an utter and complete asshole, but I wait to see how they act towards me before allowing my standard gut reaction to flow into my actual in your face reaction.

People have the ability to dislike something and not act on that dislike.

I fear the Police because I've been victimized by them and am related to an ex cop who, just like the prick in this story, enjoyed the power trip and went to far. he's an EX cop because they fired him for it.

Do i immediately assume a cop is an asshole? usually, yes.

Do I act like an asshole first because of it? No, I wait and see how each individual acts to me. Its not all of one or the other Molson. We are allowed to carry our prejudices around and still base our reaction to a situation on what actually happened.

This cop is/was not acting like a cop SHOULD act towards anyone. he was on a power trip and he felt like he had to be a dick to feel special about himself. That is exactly what comes out on that video and the stories from all the sources.

Now in this economy (being a victim of a layoff) I am sympathetic to losing a high paying job, so I'm gonna step back from my real belief that he should be fired outright for even touching his weapon in this situation and hope that they demote him and stick him behind a desk for the rest of his career.