Islam: religion, or cult?

[SackAttack]

I don't think I can honestly call this anything but a cult after seeing this story on CNN.

I mean, seriously. Dude can be executed for converting to another faith? I'd heard rumblings along those lines previously, but I think this is the first example I've seen of Muslim clerics calling for the execution of somebody who leaves the faith.

If the choices are belief or death, how can a faith have true adherents?

I may disagree with things our government does with respect to my own beliefs, but if these are the kind of things that can happen when religious fundamentalists gain political power, maybe a completely secular government ain't such a bad thing after all.

[SirFozzie]

Oh yeah. This thread will end well/

[SackAttack]

I don't know how else to say it, Foz.

This isn't a handful of people kidnapping someone, making demands, and killing him.

This is a state putting a guy to death for the "crime" of believing in a different God, and the religious leadership of a "faith" telling the government that if they don't kill the guy, well, then, they'll just incite the populace to murder him.

I draw a distinction between a handful of hotheads and a government with its head this far up its ass.

[SackAttack]

Dola,

The amazing thing is that the cleric quoted in that article was apparently anti-Taliban...so he's somewhere left of that, but not so liberal with regards to his "faith" that a guy has the right to reconsider his beliefs without being put to the sword.

[tanglewood]

State =! Religion.

Would you have said that 16th Century Catholicism was a cult? By this definition it clearly was. There is, and always has been, a big divide between what a religion and its teachings stand for and how those teachings are manipulated by those in power. These types of things happen in middle-eastern Islamic states because of their cultural and political climate, not their religious sentiment.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

State =! Religion.

Would you have said that 16th Century Catholicism was a cult? By this definition it clearly was. There is, and always has been, a big divide between what a religion and its teachings stand for and how those teachings are manipulated by those in power. These types of things happen in middle-eastern Islamic states because of their cultural and political climate, not their religious sentiment.

The state has passed the laws in this case.

The religious leaders are calling for the person's execution, regardless of what the state decides regarding the application of the law. If the state kills him, goal achieved. If the state bows to Western pressure, the clerics will exhort the population to conduct vigilante "justice."

I understand that state != religion, but in this case, the state has chosen to enact the tenets of Islam into the rule of law, and the end result is that somebody may die, either at the hands of the state or the faith, for having made a decision unpalatable to both leadership groups.

[Karlifornia]

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

[law90026]

I think the distinction needs to be drawn between the religion itself and how the religion is applied in real life. One state's decisions in relation to Islam does not make Islam a cult.

I live in South-East Asia, where Islam is one of the major religions in the region. Here, you will find an entire range of how Islam is practiced, from very moderate (Singapore) to fundamentalist (parts of Indonesia).

What I understand from my Moslem friends is that their faith actually advocates peace. In certain respects, it's exceedingly similar to Christianity. However, it's also very easy to twist their faith into a weapon for zealots, especially because a lot of the Muslims in my region are very poor.

[Marc Vaughan]

I think the distinction needs to be drawn between the religion itself and how the religion is applied in real life. One state's decisions in relation to Islam does not make Islam a cult.

I agree wholeheartedly with this - as should most christians imho ... after all otherwise christianity would be denounced instantly as a cult because of the crusades ...

The majority of religions imho are well natured and believed and practiced in a good manner by the majority of their converts - there will always however be those who use religions as tools to gain power and influence, either because they believe their 'God' wants them to or simply because of greed ... this doesn't make any of the religions more likely to be right or wrong imho, its just human nature.

[Honolulu_Blue]

All religions are just cults with a lot of members.

[CraigSca]

Btw, isn't the Islamic God the same God as the Christian one?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Btw, isn't the Islamic God the same God as the Christian one?

Depends entirely on your point of view really - most Christians/Islamics would claim not and that the 'God' of the other religion doesn't exist and is 'false' ...

However some do take the stance that they'll all looking at the same God from different viewpoints ...

[Qwikshot]

This is simply being against anything Western (which Christianity is).

They won't even let him live in exile, because they are afraid others will leave to go in exile.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

All religions are just cults with a lot of members.

ding ding ding! We have a winner!

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Btw, isn't the Islamic God the same God as the Christian one?

Yes, they are. Somewhere, Muhammed taught that Muslims should respect Jews and Christians as the forefathers of their fate, but that was lost somewhere through the years.

However, the older I get, and the more I learn about Islam, the more I believe it is a cult. I agree that it is ridiculous to be given the choice of conversion or death. You can't portray the Prophet in any form of drawing. You cannot question the Prophet. You cannot question the Koran. The entire world is divided in to two houses, the House of Submission and the House of War. Muslims must not rest until the entire world is under the House of Submission (which coincidentally conveniently is at odds with respect of the Hebrews and Christians).

This method was used by the Church in Spain during the inquisition, however, that phenomenon was not repeated throughout the Christian world. In Spain, this began during the Reconquista and it was a collaboration between the Church, people, and the state. The result was the eventual expulsion/conversion of the entire Moorish and Jewish population of Spain which eventually led to her becoming a second rate power (many of those that emigrated were from the middle class, leaving Spain with a small middle class.

During this time Protestants were not much better as they massacred Catholics as well. This whole period of European history was a struggle between rulers under the guise of a religious struggle. In many cases, religion was simply a tool that rulers used. Heck, most of the northeastern colonies of the US were founded by settlers from another colony that were forced out, or decided to found their own religious refuge.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

All religions are just cults with a lot of members.

He speaketh the truth.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Would you have said that 16th Century Catholicism was a cult?

Damn you, you stole my example!

To be consistant, if you are catagorizing Islam as a cult for the current policies of Afghanistan (which are very strict comparatively), then Christianity has been a cult for much of its history in Europe.

[Grammaticus]

Just for reference, here is Websters definitions:

Cult:
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Religion:
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

This is a state putting a guy to death for the "crime" of believing in a different God...

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Muslims believe in a different God, so much as the same God with a different belief system.

The main differences between Jews, Muslims and Christians isn't the God worshiped so much as the Profit listened to.

Essentially they are wanting to put this man to death not for denying God, but for denying Muhammed (but to them it is the same thing.)

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

All religions are just cults with a lot of members.

Not to harp here, but I'll third this.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Btw, isn't the Islamic God the same God as the Christian one?

Yes. Islam recognizes many of the Biblical characters, but shares the belief with Judaism that Jesus was not the prophet (but an important man nonetheless).

As for Sack - wow.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Just for reference, here is Websters definitions:

Cult:
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Religion:
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

In this case, I think we are hitting on definitions 3 and 5....

[ISiddiqui]

Unorthodox? It does have over a billion adherants now. And #5? That refers to movies or books, not religion.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Unorthodox? It does have over a billion adherants now. And #5? That refers to movies or books, not religion.

Yep, unorthodox. How many of those are Muslims because of fear? For everyone of these guys that we are talking about, there are at least a few that do not take the leap.

Also, re-read #5, person, idea, movement, or work... I am obviously looking at one item here, person (Mohammed). You could easily make the case that Islam is the cult of Mohammed.

Look at the history of the early Church, there was a great number of religious debates. In many cases, these were settled peacefully. Sometimes they were settled by the sword. However, in the case of Islam, the penalty for leaving the religion is death. I don't think you'll find that any where in Christianity.

I truly believe that Mohammed started Islam to gain power. It makes sense, he was a warrior and he promised his followers paradise on earth and in heaven. Look at Judaism and Christianity. If anything, they promise the opposite. Your reward is not in this life but the next. We are taught to change minds and hearts, not to kill those who disagree. Granted, during the Crusades this was not taught. Again, that was a political/social issue, not a religious one.

[CamEdwards]

Just an FYI for anyone in the DC area. There's going to be a rally in support of Abdul Rahman outside the Afghan Embassy at noon today. The address is 2341 Wyoming Ave NW.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Also, re-read #5, person, idea, movement, or work... I am obviously looking at one item here, person (Mohammed). You could easily make the case that Islam is the cult of Mohammed.

If you accept that logic... how is that any sort of distinction from a religion? What about the cult of Jesus, which its the same definition just as well. Or the cult of the torah?

Pointless semantic argument.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If you accept that logic... how is that any sort of distinction from a religion? What about the cult of Jesus, which its the same definition just as well. Or the cult of the torah?

Pointless semantic argument.

Good question, Christianity does not discourage you to question your faith. Yes, it is centered around one person, but you can debate his teachings, his existence, etc. It is not a sin to do so. In many cases it is encouraged to strengthed your beliefs. Look at what the Amish do. Live in a community, then you get sent off for a year or two, so you can decide if you will accept the Amish way of life.

If anyone questions Mohammed, whether Muslim or not, you are insulting Muslims. Look at what happened in Denmark a few months back. Did you hear what some of the Muslim leaders were saying? That is where I draw the line between the connotation of "cult" (which is more in line with definitions 3 and 5) and the denotative meaning of "cult."

Heck, the first few definitions of "cult" pretty much say that all religions are. Of course SackAttack is using the word connotatively, not denotatively.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Yep, unorthodox. How many of those are Muslims because of fear? For everyone of these guys that we are talking about, there are at least a few that do not take the leap.

Also, re-read #5, person, idea, movement, or work... I am obviously looking at one item here, person (Mohammed). You could easily make the case that Islam is the cult of Mohammed.

Look at the history of the early Church, there was a great number of religious debates. In many cases, these were settled peacefully. Sometimes they were settled by the sword. However, in the case of Islam, the penalty for leaving the religion is death. I don't think you'll find that any where in Christianity.

I truly believe that Mohammed started Islam to gain power. It makes sense, he was a warrior and he promised his followers paradise on earth and in heaven. Look at Judaism and Christianity. If anything, they promise the opposite. Your reward is not in this life but the next. We are taught to change minds and hearts, not to kill those who disagree. Granted, during the Crusades this was not taught. Again, that was a political/social issue, not a religious one.

Roffle - this is hilarious - especially the arguement about Mohammed. Did a little birdie tell you that ?

As for Christianity, my biblical knowledge is weak, but wasn't an entire city sentenced to death for being sinners ?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Of course SackAttack [like everyone else] is using the word connotatively, not denotatively.

Which is why tring to connive something out of the dictionary definition ir the rhetorical equivalent of a parlor trick.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Roffle - this is hilarious - especially the arguement about Mohammed. Did a little birdie tell you that ?

As for Christianity, my biblical knowledge is weak, but wasn't an entire city sentenced to death for being sinners ?

No, your biblical knowledge is not weak. I am also not a strict literalist of the Bible. Others will lambast me for that I am sure. Find for me Soddom and Gemorah and I'll buy the story.

Yes, little birdies do come and tell me things. Cite something specific about my argument about Mohammed. It is against their teachings, and punishible in a number of ways, to portray Mohammed in any way in an image. You cannot question their teachings, or you are punished.

Prove me wrong, rather than asking me about little birdies. If I stand corrected, great. I learned something, but I stand by what I have learned.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

This is simply being against anything Western (which Christianity is).

They won't even let him live in exile, because they are afraid others will leave to go in exile.

So Islam = Cuban National Baseball Team?

[sachmo71]

The guy will be excused because of mental illness. This will come up again, but maybe Karzai can be out of the kill-zone by then.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Which is why tring to connive something out of the dictionary definition ir the rhetorical equivalent of a parlor trick.

Which is why I was not the one to bring it up. I merely pointed out that what we were discussing were definitions #3 and 5.

Again, connotation and denotation are completely different things. I can use the n word denotatively using the #3 definition according to Webster's, but would be insane to do so because of its connotation.

So quit saying that I am playing tricks when I am trying to clear the air and pointing out what the discussion is about. Otherwise, the question is Islam a cult is ridiculous because by the first definition all religions are cults, so there is no either or. But, using common useage (connotation) the question makes perfect sense and is up for debate.

Use some common sense.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Use some common sense.

I'd have been completely with you had you focused on definition #3, which is clearly the intent here. However, your overbroad use of definition #5 is what I'm referencing as a cheap trick, and I still think rightly so. That (weak, in my opinion) definition could be expanded to include any group of people whose ideas are in any way organized together... religious or otherwise. They're trying to explain things like the Rocky Horror Picture Show, not the world's great faiths.

I completely agree with you short of that, though -- that the real debate here is whether the holdings of Islam (and/or how they are interpreted in this case) render that faith as "unorthodox or spurious" (and candidly, the billion followers probably isolate the latter of the two).

[RendeR]

Religion != State

Cult == Religions in all forms

Cult == Accepted if its one of the popular ones.

Thinking != acceptable within cults


Draw your lines where you will.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I'd have been completely with you had you focused on definition #3, which is clearly the intent here. However, your overbroad use of definition #5 is what I'm referencing as a cheap trick, and I still think rightly so. That (weak, in my opinion) definition could be expanded to include any group of people whose ideas are in any way organized together... religious or otherwise. They're trying to explain things like the Rocky Horror Picture Show, not the world's great faiths.

I completely agree with you short of that, though -- that the real debate here is whether the holdings of Islam (and/or how they are interpreted in this case) render that faith as "unorthodox or spurious" (and candidly, the billion followers probably isolate the latter of the two).

Fair enough. I would think #5 would include the David Koresh's of the world, but I can see your point.

[finketr]

So, is hinduism a cult or religion?
christianity?
buddhism?

where do you draw the line?

as someone already stated, what about the inquisition? Theoretically, Catholics went around and killed the muslims and jews of spain if they didn't "convert".

fwiw, Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god.

As for Rahman, if he is executed by the state then he's a martyr.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Pointless semantic argument.

Quite. For this discussion to be in any way meaningful, one must define the terms. What is a cult? What is a religion? Unless this is done, you're not going to get anywhere, what with "one man's cult is one man's religion" and all that.

Perhaps you won't get anywhere even if you do, though. It strikes me that the discussion so far has centered on broad generalities. "Muslims can't question their religion", for instance. This is patently false. I know a number of Muslims personally who do, in fact, both study and question their religion. I would hazard a guess to say that the practice is not unknown amongst Muslims living, especially, in predominantly non-Muslim cultures. Maybe not the majority, but certainly not unknown.

Furthermore, this broad generality is easily reproduced for Christianity, which rather kills the argument. There are members of this board, even who have said that it is not their role to question God (the Christian God), and they are certainly not alone in the United States.


The more interesting, and I feel useful, discussion on this topic revolves around the question of why Islam has not developed a reform movement of any significance. Both of its nearest comparisons (i.e. widely-accepted monotheistic religions), Christianity and Judaism, have done this, although it took 1500 years for Christianity and until the 19th century for Judaism.

On one hand, is Islam merely lagging behind these other two? Does it need a few more centuries to develop a reform movement of significance? My inclination is to say no. I think the development of a reform movement is only partly based on the religion's age.

Both Christianity and Judaism developed reform movements in a large part through exposure to significant cultural shifts in the way their constituent societies thought. For Christianity, Humanism. For Judaism, the Enlightenment.

It is here, I think, that a kernel of truth lies. Islam's most influential "home" societies are, generally, the Arab states. These states appear to have never gone through significant changes in the way their societies think. The reason for this, I think, is fairly simple: it serves the interest of the largely feudal (or theocratic) leaders of these states to keep their public bound to a particular way of thinking, and so free thought is not only not encouraged, but in many cases actively discouraged.

The modern world, however, now offers too many avenues for exposure to free thought to be completely suppressed. I think this is the impetus for the radicalism we see within Islam today. What we may see as a cultural war between the "West" and "Islam", has at its heart a struggle between the "true believers" of Islam and what they see as a dilution or liberalisation of the faith (which is probably one part true and one part a fiction constructed by themselves - i.e. they see that which is not truly there).

Based on this, I do think we'll see a significant reform movement within Islam at some point, but I think a lot of blood will be shed before it truly happens. It's hard to be certain, though.

There are, however, a number of significant external factors. Although we always live in "uncertain times", and this is always credited for people turning back to religion, it is perhaps more truthfully the case in the early 21st century. The uncertainty of one's place in the world economy, and the rush to secure vital natural resources has, I think, made a significant number of people unsure about their place in the world. Turning back to religion has always been a likely avenue for these people. Is this happening in the Islamic world? I'm sure of it. It is happening in the Christian world, after all. Furthermore, it is happening in the Christian world after about a century of unprecedented movement forward in secularism.

Anyway, I'll stop now before I ramble further. If you got this far, congratulations.

[Ryche]

Personally I think the only difference between a cult and a religion is the degree of acceptance the faith received in the general public. If the general public thinks the followers are wackos, it's deemed a cult. If it's viewed as an 'acceptable' faith, it's a religion. All religions started as cults.

And as far as the Muslim god, my understanding is that Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism. The Quran is essentially a third testament, building on the first two. Jesus is revered in Islam as a prophet, but is considered a normal human.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by law90026

I think the distinction needs to be drawn between the religion itself and how the religion is applied in real life. One state's decisions in relation to Islam does not make Islam a cult.

I live in South-East Asia, where Islam is one of the major religions in the region. Here, you will find an entire range of how Islam is practiced, from very moderate (Singapore) to fundamentalist (parts of Indonesia).

What I understand from my Moslem friends is that their faith actually advocates peace. In certain respects, it's exceedingly similar to Christianity. However, it's also very easy to twist their faith into a weapon for zealots, especially because a lot of the Muslims in my region are very poor.

This sums it up well for me. It is a religion that in some areas is practiced with extreme passion. This makes it easy in many areas for clerics to turn these fiercely devoted followers into maniacal Zealots, who will seemingly overlook one of the most basic principles of Islam (Peace) for the perceived greater good of the religion itself.

[Dutch]

Quite.

Thank you, Higgins.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by finketr

as someone already stated, what about the inquisition? Theoretically, Catholics went around and killed the muslims and jews of spain if they didn't "convert".

Well, you're close there, but not quite. During the times of the Spanish Inquisition, Jews and Muslims were forced to either convert to Christianity or leave the country (and generally could not take any wealth or many possessions with them). Given the hardship faced with leaving their homes penniless, many chose to convert. But then they were closely scrutinized to determine if they had converted back to their old religions.. any evidence or accusation of such and they were snatched up by the Inquisition. If they had been found to be converted from Christianity back to their old religion and did not repent, they were put to death. Also, during the Protestant Reformation, any Catholics who converted to Protestantism (or were suspected of such) got the same treatment. So basically we have the same situation here as in the originally mentioned article.. if you're part of the religion and you leave it, you're put to death.

[Anthony]

i don't view Islam as a cult, just extremist and outdated.

i know for Roman Catholicism - my faith (i'm non-practicing) - we've had Vatican "updates" (for lack of a better word) twice. this is where we got the whole "no meat on Fridays during Lent" and all that crap. Islam, as far as i can see, hasn't "modernized" itself. civilized people just don't go beheading others anymore. by and large women are considered equals. tolerance of other views and faiths is the norm across the board. the actions of Muslims are that of centuries ago, quite literally a different world from where we are now.

i had hoped that by taking the extremist government out of Afghanistan they'd implement a balance of theocratic and secular rule. apparently that's not the case.

which goes back to "what are we doing in these places?". we've liberated these people, let the chips fall where they will. they know no other way of life other than the way it's been. being civil and reason are traits that have escaped these cultures. and when you say "you can't let the actions of an extemist few reflect on a moderate whole" i say if the silent majority didn't agree with insurgents and extremist way of life they'd speak out. being liberated they certainly have the tools and resources and ability to do so.

they want to live like this. so, let them.

[EagleFan]

How about this simple equation:

Islam = cult of animals who do not respect human life
Muslim = religion
Chritianity = religion


Seems pretty straight forward. It's sad that we're in the 21st century and there are still animals around like that who will attempt to "justify" their terroristic and barbaric actions by using religion as a motivation.


Oh, have fun twisting my words to be whatever you want to jump on me about but I really don't give a damn since I know I'm right.

My only "wish" is that the world can someday actually see and understand my "vision" which is a world where people can believe whatever the hell they want as long as they don't practice anything that involces the need to kill other humans because of this "belief". A world where people know how to live in a society where everyone can respect the other person and not have to act like ignorant jerks. A world that would be better for all involved, but there are not enough people who are intelligent enough to accept and understand this idea to make it a reality.

If you can find a way to make that a bad thing, that would be just sad on your behalf.


Okay, I have a plane home to go catch, have fun all.

[Dutch]

Although we always live in "uncertain times", and this is always credited for people turning back to religion, it is perhaps more truthfully the case in the early 21st century. The uncertainty of one's place in the world economy, and the rush to secure vital natural resources has, I think, made a significant number of people unsure about their place in the world. Turning back to religion has always been a likely avenue for these people.

It's called hope. That's why stupid people turn to religion when things go bad and intellectuals blow their brains out.

[Solecismic]

According to the dictionary definitions, cult is a broader term that encompasses all of religion, but with one distinction (among its many meanings) that indicates that a cult is "generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader."

That's what we think of when we talk about cults. And many extremist Muslims in Europe and the Middle East would fall into that category, while most in Singapore and America would not.

Technically, the terms are equivalent. But the connotations that go along with the word "cult" essentially turns this into a semantic argument. Because of this, you insult a religion by calling it a "cult," just as you insult a woman by calling her a "little girl."

As far as religions go, many have pointed out that Christianity has had its moments of evil. Many, many moments of evil. That's mostly in the past now. Now it's the extremist Muslims' turn, and they seem to be determined to be remembered for this.

That's not to say Christianity today is perfect by any means. Right now, our government is run by people who want to control what we say, what we see and what we do purely on the basis of what many (including me) find to be archaic religious grounds. They are mostly peaceful people, but their views are just as offensive to me as the views of the extremist Muslims. Since violence carries with it an immediate need to defend, obviously the extremist Muslims must be fought first.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

According to the dictionary definitions, cult is a broader term that encompasses all of religion, but with one distinction (among its many meanings) that indicates that a cult is "generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader."

That's what we think of when we talk about cults. And many extremist Muslims in Europe and the Middle East would fall into that category, while most in Singapore and America would not.

Technically, the terms are equivalent. But the connotations that go along with the word "cult" essentially turns this into a semantic argument. Because of this, you insult a religion by calling it a "cult," just as you insult a woman by calling her a "little girl."

As far as religions go, many have pointed out that Christianity has had its moments of evil. Many, many moments of evil. That's mostly in the past now. Now it's the extremist Muslims' turn, and they seem to be determined to be remembered for this.

That's not to say Christianity today is perfect by any means. Right now, our government is run by people who want to control what we say, what we see and what we do purely on the basis of what many (including me) find to be archaic religious grounds. They are mostly peaceful people, but their views are just as offensive to me as the views of the extremist Muslims. Since violence carries with it an immediate need to defend, obviously the extremist Muslims must be fought first.

To me I think it would be incorrect to state that this is Islam's period of darkness. Even at their inception, there was a great deal of aggressiveness to their religion. By in part, I believe due to zealotry, but also because that was how it was done. The raids on African towns where women and children are dragged off are no different than what some Muslims did at the start. An no religioin is clean in this matter of convert or die...

I think most people are less open minded to Islam because it is deemed aggressive. It is also political.

It's big news that Muslims in Michigan want to adopt a sharia (apologize for spelling) but we accept that Jewish Orthodox completely remove themselves from society just like the Amish.

The greatest difference in the fears of Islam is that unlike other religions in this day and age, the extremism allows for suicide (and taking a few people along with them) and that some countries are dominated by it rather than influenced by it. That a nation like Iran could develop nuclear weapons to hit infidels in Israel and Europe is frightening as much as a sleeper cell flying planes into buildings.

To ignore it, further allows infiltration. To combat it, raises the ire of the entire Muslim nation.

[GrantDawg]

I may be ignorant of the true beginnings of Islam, so someone please correct my interpretation. Can we fairly say there was a fundamental difference between the beginnings of Christianity and Islam? Christianity began peaceful and existed peaceably for over 250 years before it was subverted for political/war like purposes. Islam was warlike from the very beginning. Am I wrong on that?

[st.cronin]

A cult is a religion you don't respect? That seems to me to be about the size of it.

And the Biblical/historical references are backwards - there is a Biblical story (pre-dating Christianity, so more accurately described as part of the Jewish tradition) which tells of God destroying a city of sinners, but He did make a point of saving the one good man in the city.

But the first thing Muhammed did after writing the Koran was raise an army, and massacre a city.

I'm sure somebody will yell at me for pointing that out.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I may be ignorant of the true beginnings of Islam, so someone please correct my interpretation. Can we fairly say there was a fundamental difference between the beginnings of Christianity and Islam? Christianity began peaceful and existed peaceably for over 250 years before it was subverted for political/war like purposes. Islam was warlike from the very beginning. Am I wrong on that?

You are not wrong, but you will be accused of being intolerant if you point that out.