Game of Thrones on HBO

[Radii]

I didn't hate it. TV Show Bran on the throne is very silly to me. His character was nothing but a plot device on the show, an afterthought. If you wanted to go a non-standard route, put Sam on the throne. Other than that, I was surprisingly ok with it. My expectations were low, but the first half had some nice scenes with key characters, Dany needed to die for burning the city and she did, consistency in fire notwithstanding, I liked the burning of the iron throne. Selecting the new king except for arriving on Bran was cool, and I really want a 10 minute weekly youtube series with tyrion, bronn, brienne, sam and davos.

Oh and Jon up north is fine. I don't care, just anywhere but the throne. 100 Horrible decisions and then he finally does one thing right, not good enough.


So yeah, it was mostly fine, given the lead-up. I won't be thinking about the details except to enjoy some memes, good enough.

[RainMaker]

I thought it was fine. Tough to wrap up a show of that magnitude. Lots of fan service and just about everyone getting a happy ending seems to go against the theme of the show. But given how bad the past 2 seasons have been, this was much better than expected.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Far less disappointed by the end than I thought I would be. Sansa declaring the North independent and everyone shrugging their shoulders and being immediately cool with it was terrible, but I thought the rest was pretty ok.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But did you spot the water bottle?

Beth on Twitter: "a water bottle in King’s Landing!! #got #gameofthrones… "

[thesloppy]

I fast forwarded through most of it. Always a good sign for a show finale.

[spleen1015]

Where did all of this "breaking the wheel" talk come from? I don't remember there ever being a mention of a "wheel" until these last 2 episodes.

I think the writers got their stories mixed up.

[ISiddiqui]

Dany had been talking about 'breaking the wheel' since Meereen.

The more I think about it the ending makes less sense. Bronn as Master of Coin is dumb (can you imagine him reading accounts?). Brienne would have chosen been on Sansa's Queensguard as opposed to Bran's Kingsguard. And as soon as Sansa declared the North independent, so would everyone else want to be as well. Not to mention the Unsullied not killing Jon as soon they realized he killed Dany (and, speaking of, since when has Tyrion start calling her Dany?)

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[bob]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Why on earth was anyone giving two shits what Grey Worm thought?.

Probably because he controls the super multiplying army. What I don't get is why Dany didn't immediately kill Tyrion and GW didn't immediately kill Jon.

Bran and Arya were my least favorite storylines. I have 0 interest in any Arya goes west spinoff.

Did we actually see the Dothraki get on the ships with the Unsullied?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Radii

I didn't hate it. TV Show Bran on the throne is very silly to me. His character was nothing but a plot device on the show, an afterthought. If you wanted to go a non-standard route, put Sam on the throne. Other than that, I was surprisingly ok with it. My expectations were low, but the first half had some nice scenes with key characters, Dany needed to die for burning the city and she did, consistency in fire notwithstanding, I liked the burning of the iron throne. Selecting the new king except for arriving on Bran was cool, and I really want a 10 minute weekly youtube series with tyrion, bronn, brienne, sam and davos.

Oh and Jon up north is fine. I don't care, just anywhere but the throne. 100 Horrible decisions and then he finally does one thing right, not good enough.

So yeah, it was mostly fine, given the lead-up. I won't be thinking about the details except to enjoy some memes, good enough.

I totally agree with Bran. What a wasted story. I mean, it was built up to be this massive, intriguing thing, with some strange and faintly mystifying skills. I was expecting something...different? Better?



To the end though, it could have ended a bit darker. It wasn't a happy ending per se, but there could have been more discomfort. I mean, what we've got, more or less, is a tragedy between Jon and Dany where they are so very close to tasting the future in an incredible power bond between them, and look how, after everything they end up. Jon back where he belongs and feels the most comfortable, and Dany, after a massive storyline, dead, out of power and a massive catalyst for the future of Westeros.



But that Bran line...yeah. The whole dumping of the warging Starks was disappointing in general. Felt like they didn't really know how to make it anything and sort of left it on the floor.

[Kodos]

Eh, they didn't quite stick the landing. Not a fan of Bran being king. But, as a whole, this has been the best show from the past decade. I'll definitely check out any spinoffs, especially one with Arya.

[Coffee Warlord]

The selection process was the biggest joke I've seen.

You're telling me, a continent that is pretty much a hotbed for political backstabbing and maneuvering (evidenced by the first 5 seasons), settled on a KING in 60 seconds? You could literally have a full season of nothing but high lords maneuvering for votes and favors in the selection process.

[JPhillips]

Why would Dany let Jon and Tyrion talk after Tyrion was arrested?

What possible explanation is there for how Tyrion ended up on trial?

Why do Gendry and Brienne get votes?

Can literally anyone get a pen and start writing in the history of the Kingsguard?

What happened to Arya's horse?

How did Grey Worm get to Dany faster than Jon after the Lannister executions?

How did they gather all the Lords in the day or two since Dany's killing?

How was the history of these events written in the day or two since Dany's killing?


And that council meeting...

Bran shows up, says, anybody seen the dragon, gets no answer, and leaves everything up to them so that he can stare at the ground. He's already a worse king than Robert.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Not to mention the Unsullied not killing Jon as soon they realized he killed Dany

I'll give the writers credit for one thing: during a season where they loved doing cutaways instead of giving us meaningful dialogue about important moments, it was smart for them to do that this time.

Because there was no way in hell they could have explained that away. GW is cutting the throats of surrendered soldiers merely for fighting on behalf of their own queen, but apparently will just walk Jon into a cell following the murder of his queen.

[Logan]

JPhillips the time jump was said to be "weeks" between Dany's murder and everyone gathering. Not that it really justifies much.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Logan

JPhillips the time jump was said to be "weeks" between Dany's murder and everyone gathering. Not that it really justifies much.

Well then show us that period. How did the city function under the military governorship of Grey Worm?

And if that's true, it's just more ridiculous that he agreed to a trial for Tyrion and equally as ridiculous that the lords agreed this was a good use of their time. Aside from Sansa, is there a single one that wouldn't have said, just go ahead and kill him if you want to?

[JPhillips]

Did anyone else notice the book was already full of text when Brienne turned the page?

Outside of the writing, the show got incredibly sloppy this season. The subtitle for the season should be, We're already working on Star Wars.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

The selection process was the biggest joke I've seen.

You're telling me, a continent that is pretty much a hotbed for political backstabbing and maneuvering (evidenced by the first 5 seasons), settled on a KING in 60 seconds? You could literally have a full season of nothing but high lords maneuvering for votes and favors in the selection process.

Another reason that Benioff and Weiss needed to accept HBO's offer for 10 episodes for Seasons 7 & 8. That conversation could have been an episode (and possibly a really good one as everyone tries to maneuver a bit) itself.

I was thinking that the final scene should have been a pan forward (beyond the Wall) to way way way way up North and then you see another Night King walk into frame and then cut to black.

[JPhillips]

And what's the point of Castle Black when there's a big hole in the wall at Eastwatch?

[Arles]

I didn't mind the ending, but this whole season did feel rushed. We spent a whole season in Mereen and watching Arya/Hound travel from the Riverlands to the Vail. Yet, in three episodes, we go from an all-out war in Winterfell to a massive war in King's Landing, assassination of Dany and a fast forwarded final counsel involving characters from everywhere.

That said, I did enjoy the first 40 or so minutes until Jon killed Dany. It had some very good moments and really setup an emotional ending. Then, we got 30 minutes of showing everyone happy and getting this Westerosian Pollet Bureau involving the whole gang (still not sure how Sam, Brienne and Arya got votes). I figured Jon would end up at the Wall, but it would have been better if he made that decision (a la Maester Eamon) to forgo his title - not been forced to. Still, I really enjoyed the show and knew coming into the season that 6 episodes just wasn't going to be enough to close it out properly. But, it wasn't a bad finale, just one that felt rushed (with a little too much fan service) at the end.

[MizzouRah]

I enjoyed the first part as well.. but Jon killing Dany was stupid. The rest after that was probably the worst of the whole series for me. Other than that, this is probably my favorite series to date, really enjoyed it.. especially the first half of the series.

[MizzouRah]

Oh and if I'm Grey Worm and see Jon killed my queen, it would be over for him in about 2 seconds, along with Tyrion.

[cthomer5000]

They really pulled their punches a lot and it resulted in a pretty unsatisfying end.

They clearly decided they wanted Sansa on a throne, but also decided she couldn’t betray family to achieve that goal. It annoyed me that Jon seemed to part so amicably when it felt like his family sold him out.

That same outcome goes down a lot smoother to me if Sansa pulls some backstabbing move to send Jon north in return for their independence. No sad goodbyes just Jon tossed in a caged cart and driven north.

And Bran on the throne just sucks to me. The writing got very sloppy once they ran out of source material. I can imagine a number of scenarios I think make more sense and would have felt truer to the overall spirit of the show.

I just don’t feel they appropriately laid the groundwork to get to some of the outcomes.

Very good show in the end, but a “notable” drop in quality the last 2 seasons in my opinion.

[bob]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I just don’t feel they appropriately laid the groundwork to get to some of the outcomes.

So this is probably the best way to describe my feelings on the show's run. I'm generally fine with what happened on a larger scale other than King Broken, but they didn't layout the path well enough.

[JPhillips]

I saw this from someone on twitter.

All of Game of Thrones was instigated by a lack of a clear successor to the throne and then the lords created a system where there will never be a clear successor to the throne.

[bob]

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!

Or dragons.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I was thinking that the final scene should have been a pan forward (beyond the Wall) to way way way way up North and then you see another Night King walk into frame and then cut to black.

I was hoping for this as well.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by sabotai

My prediction is that no one wins the Iron Throne. The Night King will be defeated, but the kingdoms will all be devastated, Sansa will lead as Queen In The North, The Seven Kingdoms are shattered, and the Iron Throne will be physically destroyed by one of the dragons. Cersei and Jamie kill each other, leaving Tyrion to take over their ancestral home. A few of the Kingdoms plunge into total chaos as there are power voids everywhere. If Dany survives, she controls Dragonstone, but doesn't have enough soldiers left to control much of anything else, but I do like the idea of her losing her mind and Jon having to kill her. Jon probably dies sacrificing himself to defeat the Night King. Arya ends up on a ship sailing west. Bran heads back North when the war is over to live a thousand years as a tree.

I'm actually surprised at how much of this turned out to be right. Go me!

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I'm actually surprised at how much of this turned out to be right. Go me!

Dude, you get an big, fat "A" from me for that work.

[Arles]

That was very impressive, Sabotai. I also like ISiddiqui's ending above. I really think they should have saved Rhaegal's death for the final battle (reason for Dany to flip mid-fight) and not killed Varys before. Then, after she turns the city to ashes, Varys and Tyrion try to kill her and that's where Varys is burned. It just didn't make sense for Varys to switch his tune right after Winterfell. Dany hadn't really done anything crazy to that point.

[21C]

I liked the end of the meeting of Westeros council when they started panning out and everyone is talking about the running of the city. It reminded me of the finale of Seinfeld.

[thesloppy]

The council scene was ham-handed. Every remaining lord in Westeros came down to see.....something? I guess they could've all assembled to beg for/demand Jon's release, but instead Grey Worm brought out Tyrion and then Tyrion just starts free-associating about forms of government and says "you guys should do it like this!" and then all the lords say "Yeah, why NOT base our entire government on some shit this tiny prisoner, who has royally fucked up and eventually betrayed every one of his own past ideals, just pulled out of his ass on the spot??! Let's make the autistic kid king!"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

The council scene was ham-handed. Every remaining lord in Westeros came down to see.....something? I guess they could've all assembled to beg for/demand Jon's release, but instead Grey Worm brought out Tyrion and then Tyrion just starts free-associating about forms of government and says "you guys should do it like this!" and then all the lords say "Yeah, why NOT base our entire government on some shit this tiny prisoner, who has royally fucked up and eventually betrayed every one of his own past ideals, just pulled out of his ass on the spot??! Let's make the autistic kid king!"

They know, deep down, Tyrion actually is smarter than they are. Plus, he managed to articulate something that resembled an idea, which obviously they hadn't been able to do in how many weeks?

Given the circumstances it does kinda make sense, they had to do something eventually.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

They know, deep down, Tyrion actually is smarter than they are. Plus, he managed to articulate something that resembled an idea, which obviously they hadn't been able to do in how many weeks?

Given the circumstances it does kinda make sense, they had to do something eventually.

I guess so...not that it really helps my overall judgment of the show to think that all these folks were knee deep in generations of political warfare but seemingly forgot to pick a ruler until Tyrion suggested they do so. Someone should've punted Tyrion into the sea and said "NO! Stay just like this! Apparently you're not fighting each other and are too dim to do anything on your own but sit in this square until the end of time. Stay. Just. Like. This."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I guess so...not that it really helps my overall judgment of the show to think that all these folks were knee deep in generations of political warfare but seemingly forgot to pick a ruler until Tyrion suggested they do so.

one of the recaps I saw probably impacts my thinking on that. When you look down the line at that royal court you realize just how deep into their bench most houses have ended up. Some are working with players below replacement value.

[JPhillips]

I'm not sure why the Dornish didn't march their army north and claim the throne. Only they and the Vale are largely untouched by the wars, and Robyn could never rule Westeros. Dorne could have come to Kings Landing and dared anyone to fight them.

[thesloppy]

About 3/4 into Tyrion's speech Drogon should've popped his head over a wall and torched everybody in attendance. Wheel broken!

[bob]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Arya ends up on a ship sailing west.

I had no idea there even was something to the west other than the other side of Essos.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm not sure why the Dornish didn't march their army north and claim the throne. Only they and the Vale are largely untouched by the wars, and Robyn could never rule Westeros. Dorne could have come to Kings Landing and dared anyone to fight them.

They wouldn't be able to match the respawn rate of the unsullied and dothraki.

[stevew]

I really wanted to see grey worm get merc'd. It'd be a shame if they all got lost at sea.

[Surtt]

Just a few random thoughts..

So, the six kingdoms will form a moot to elect a king.
Doesn't the Iron Islands do that now?
Not as revolutionary as they played it up to be.
(And how well did that work for the Iron Islands last time.)

I would argue Dany actually also had a happy ending.
She succeeded in her life's ambition to regain the iron thrown.
And had a happy (if short) reign.

Jon initially wanted to join the Night Watch in the first episode,
so having him end up there at the end was what he wanted to start with.

IMHO making the last season six episodes was a huge mistake.
I am sure they checked off all the required boxes.
But it was just too rushed and felt like they had to strip out all the things that made GoTs - GoTs.

GoTs having a happy ending for everyone leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
It does not seem right.
It does not seem like the same show I watched for a decade.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

They wouldn't be able to match the respawn rate of the unsullied and dothraki.

Neither can rabbits.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, on top of that the Iron Islands were promised independence but that's apparently all been forgotten about, Dorne as mentioned was independent for the longest and is (presumably) by far the strongest fiefdom left and Bran is generally useless and has put together a comedy small council with a hand who has been shown getting absolutely everything wrong for the last 2+ seasons.

I get the "Sansa gets the north and independence" was necessary for the overall happy ending for the Stark children but it really leaves some pretty big question marks out there. Given that Bran didn't want the throne, I think Sansa running the whole show would have been a much better ending. Are we really led to believe this "breaking the wheel" thing is going to last more than a generation as these houses that have never been able to agree on anything will just peacefully choose and submit a figurehead every 20 years? To me, it's just another example of shallow and rushed writing.

[molson]

I don't think we have to assume the plan is GOOD or will work long-term. Nobody really broke any wheels, the throne sitter has been decided every possible way if you skim through one of the GOT history books. This is just the next failed human attempt at that elusive better world for everyone. I'm sure chaos is right around the corner again.

And I'm 95% sure GRRM told the showpeople that Bran would sit on the throne at the end. That's a very booky non-TV ending (and I think the Bran actor maybe didn't grow up with the right chops for this role, maybe he should have been recast). I'm even more sure that dragons burning King's landing and Jon killing Dany (another Targaryen tradition) are/were book points as well. Though, who knows what GRRM wrote and re-wrote over and over since then.

[Logan]

I thought we knew it to be 100% that they knew his planned ending.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Logan

I thought we knew it to be 100% that they knew his planned ending.

George RR Martin told the showrunners the ending and they worked with it. How they got their might be different.

And I'm not sure it's a "happy end" per se, considering everything the Stark family had to go through to get to that point. I think bittersweet fits it.

For me, the ending makes sense. The Song of Ice and Fire is really the story of the Starks. Our initial inclination that the main character was Ned Stark was both right, and wrong--the main character was the Stark family.

The execution, however, was sorely lacking. They took three seasons of thirty episodes and condensed it down to two totalling thirteen.

[Logan]

I agree with your final takeaway.

There are so many spots/plotlines you can point towards and say they could have used another 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes on that...

Imagine if I told you back during the Joffrey years that when Joffrey meets his inevitable doom, we'll watch him die, and Jamie will know who killed him, and not only would Jamie let the murderer live but we wouldn't even see a confrontation between the two on screen.

You'd tell me I was insane.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think we have to assume the plan is GOOD or will work long-term. Nobody really broke any wheels, the throne sitter has been decided every possible way if you skim through one of the GOT history books. This is just the next failed human attempt at that elusive better world for everyone. I'm sure chaos is right around the corner again.

And I'm 95% sure GRRM told the showpeople that Bran would sit on the throne at the end. That's a very booky non-TV ending (and I think the Bran actor maybe didn't grow up with the right chops for this role, maybe he should have been recast). I'm even more sure that dragons burning King's landing and Jon killing Dany (another Targaryen tradition) are/were book points as well. Though, who knows what GRRM wrote and re-wrote over and over since then.

If he told them it would be Bran, they did a piss poor job of developing the character. He wasn't even on the show for a season. His story was an afterthought on the show and never made much sense.

Bran just feels like a cop-out that bad writers would decide on because they didn't want to make a real decision. He was a safe choice and I don't think GRRM would go that route.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Yeah, on top of that the Iron Islands were promised independence but that's apparently all been forgotten about, Dorne as mentioned was independent for the longest and is (presumably) by far the strongest fiefdom left and Bran is generally useless and has put together a comedy small council with a hand who has been shown getting absolutely everything wrong for the last 2+ seasons.

I get the "Sansa gets the north and independence" was necessary for the overall happy ending for the Stark children but it really leaves some pretty big question marks out there. Given that Bran didn't want the throne, I think Sansa running the whole show would have been a much better ending. Are we really led to believe this "breaking the wheel" thing is going to last more than a generation as these houses that have never been able to agree on anything will just peacefully choose and submit a figurehead every 20 years? To me, it's just another example of shallow and rushed writing.

I believe the book version has Young Griff (fake Targaryen) with an invasion supported by Dorne and mercenaries and guess they probably replace an incompetent Cersei who then gets burned by Danaerys' dragon and foreigners, leaving an exhausted Seven Kingdoms that would agree to Bran after a decade of constant war.

Since Benioff and Weiss could never figure out what to do with Dorne or the Iron Islands, they just ignored them so we think they're still strong

[Jon]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If he told them it would be Bran, they did a piss poor job of developing the character. He wasn't even on the show for a season. His story was an afterthought on the show and never made much sense.

Bran just feels like a cop-out that bad writers would decide on because they didn't want to make a real decision. He was a safe choice and I don't think GRRM would go that route.

Bran was far from the safe choice. He was unexpected. I also think GRRM would go that route (and has confirmed he told the showrunners the ending, even though he might have gotten there differently). GRRM is very cynical about power, and those who seek it. He also believes that the good rulers would be (1) those who don't want power or actively seek it and (2) have the benefit of the past and the present. Bran fits that description. And, lest we forget, Bran was the first real chapter in the Song of Ice and Fire book series. The showrunners just didn't develop the character in the show properly.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Atocep

They wouldn't be able to match the respawn rate of the unsullied and dothraki.

Episode 3:
No Dothraki are left. Maybe a handful of Unsullied are still alive? From what they show us, it's maybe 50 people left alive in the walls other than the handful of named characters who are all buried under stacks of undead.

Episode 4:
Half are gone. How is that possible? The Dothraki all charged and maybe a few of them came back. Same with the Unsullied, for the most part, they held the gate while the residents of Winterfell retreated. They were essentially gone after the retreat.

Episode 5:
THOUSANDS of Dothraki and Unsullied have respawned! Full armies must have been held in reserve outside of Winterfell. If only they had those during the Battle of Winterfell!