LeBron v. Jordan (2020 Edition)

[PilotMan]

You knew this was coming.

LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan - Why the GOAT debate is different now

Previous threads:

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...ad.php?t=90628

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...ad.php?t=93068

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...ad.php?t=93854

[albionmoonlight]

I go back and forth on this.

I was team Jordan.
Then I finally flipped to LeBron.
Then I was Jordan again.
Now I'm not sure.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think LeBron is probably the better player, but the combination of Jordan having to deal with way more physical defense being allowed and LeBron's attitude still have me on team Jordan.

[PilotMan]

The longer it goes the harder it will be to discount Lebron. I went on team Lebron a couple years ago. The legend of Jordan only grows the longer he is away from the game, nobody remembers those years on the Wizards. Not that it matters here at all, but Lebron will never be remembered the way Jordan is for his outspoken stance on civil rights issues, his playing for 3 different teams, and so on. Those things he can't fight, but in the end, I still think I'd take him to start and build a team around than Michael, knowing the career arc they both take.

[Ben E Lou]

Jordan was amazing, and he's from "my" era, but if we're drafting a team, and the player pool consists of every player in NBA history at age 22, and I have the 1(1) pick, I'm picking LeBron with no hesitation whatsoever, If I have the 1(2) after LeBron is off the board, I'm gonna have to think about Jordan, Hakeem, or Wilt.

[Brian Swartz]

I take LeBron due to longevity, I think it's really close. I don't have any personal ill will towards Jordan retiring and coming back or anything like that, but I think volume matters. Just like an MVP candidate who plays 60 games against one who plays 75.

[Antmeister]

Right now I am leaning towards Lebron. Never seen any basketball player be this good for this long. I mean you couldn't even argue he wasn't the MVP of the series because he is that damn good and doing so at the age of freaking 35. He also have a number of skills I am not used to seeing from someone at that size and usually the skills decline much faster for people of his height.

[spleen1015]

Most people who still say Jordan, just don't like Lebron. On the basketball court, he is better.

Yeah, Miami happened. Yeah, he had to get AD to make the Lakers good. It drives me nuts that he has to be so public about how good he is. If you think coming back from 3-0 with Cleveland makes you the GOAT, that's fine. Don't say that on your tv show though. You don't need to. Last night, after the game, don't mention you want respect. People are just going to hate on you more.

This conversation is mostly a waste though. NBA basketball has evolved quite a bit over the years. MJ could very well be the GOAT if he played today.

What makes you the best anyway? So many great players over the years.

Has Lebron revolutionized the game like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Jordan and Steph have?

[Lathum]

The thing about LeBron is he seems to get criticized for losing in the finals, the Mavs one most notably, while getting no credit for actually getting there.

[Brian Swartz]

That's a common wrongheaded line of thought across sports IMO, just like how quarterbacks are judged by how many Superbowls they won.

[Izulde]

Jordan made the NBA a truly global phenomenon IMO. That has to be factored into the conversation I think.

[PilotMan]

LeBron actually took it in 2018, with Jordan carrying the favs for 2017 and 2015. This, so far, looks to be the return of Jordan to the top of the FOFC pref chart.

[GrantDawg]

At this point, it is definitely Lebron.

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[JPhillips]

I saw this earlier.

Only 3 players from the 2003 draft class are still in the NBA.

Kyle Korver, Carmelo Anthony, and the best player in the NBA, LeBron.

[tarcone]

I wish this was a poll about who you are voting for President.

[GrantDawg]

Oh, man! I didn't even think about Kyle Korver. Can I change my vote?

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[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I wish this was a poll about who you are voting for President.

Not sure LeBron could pull the rural white guy vote like Jordan.

[Groundhog]

It's impossible to compare players between eras really - Jordan's NBA is as different to the current era as the 'Old Timey' grainy black and white era was to Jordan's. Compared to their peers, LeBron has been orders of magnitude better for a long time, MVP trophies be damned. Jordan was also, for a shorter period of time it has to be said, starting later, leaving earlier (multiple times).

With that disclaimer in place..... I still feel right now that LeBron is the GOAT if we take into consideration everything he can and could do on the court in his prime. Jordan was better than LeBron in a number of categories, but if you average it all out I think LeBron is ahead.

[Carman Bulldog]

If we were to swap them (and account for changes in the game, training, etc.), I think Jordan goes much better than 4-6 and I'm not convinced LeBron goes 6-0. Let's say Jordan goes 6-4 (or maybe 7-3) and LeBron goes 4-2. Thus, Jordan gets my vote.

[Toddzilla]

I saw Jordan play growing up and he was a phenomenon, no one had ever seen anything like it. The teams he played on were iconic and the last true NBA dynasty. And since his retirement his legend has only grown as our appreciation of his extraordinary talent has as well.

But LeBron is the GOAT and it shouldn't even be close.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I saw Jordan play growing up and he was a phenomenon, no one had ever seen anything like it. The teams he played on were iconic and the last true NBA dynasty. And since his retirement his legend has only grown as our appreciation of his extraordinary talent has as well.

But LeBron is the GOAT and it shouldn't even be close.

I'm not sure how you can say it's not close.

Advanced stats seem to be in favour of Jordan, where he generally comes out ahead or well ahead of LeBron. The only times were LeBron is ahead of Jordan are the cumulative totals (as impressive as LeBron's longevity is, I'll take the best player at his prime above the compiler).

Just compare their age 23-29 year old seasons, when both were arguably at their very peak...

Player Efficiency Rating - Jordan 30.4 Lebron 30.1
Usage % Jordan 33.93% Lebron 32.31%
Win Shares - Jordan 18.9 Lebron 17
Box Plus/Minus - Jordan 8.5 Lebron 8.34
Value Over Replacement - Jordan 10.8 Lebron 9.3

Even if we go beyond those seven seasons, Jordan still comes out ahead on average. It's the totals, such as total win shares and total VORP where LeBron's longevity has helped him pass Jordan.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not expert on advanced stats, but if someone wants to explain to me how these stats show LeBron is the GOAT, let alone the fact that it's not even close, I would appreciate it.

[Carman Bulldog]

Found this elsewhere on the interwebs...

Michael Jordan Advanced Statistics LeBron James
27.9* PER (Reg. Sea.) 27.5
28.6* PER (Playoffs) 28.3
.2505* Win Shares (Reg. Sea.) .2345
.2553* Win Shares (Playoffs) .2436
9.22* Box Score +/- (Reg. Sea.) 8.94
11.14* Box Score +/- (Playoffs) 10.16
.1083* VORP Per-Game (Reg. Sea.) .1059
.1382* VORP Per-Game (Playoffs) .1289
19* Top-100 Game Scores 3
*=highest all time

Statistics were compiled prior to the 2020 NBA Bubble*

Not only does Jordan beat out LeBron in all nine of the advanced statistics I could find, but he ranks first among all players in NBA history in every single one of them. Advanced statistics do not care about position or time played. All they care about is telling you who is objectively better at doing x, y, and z!

In addition, when you look at a statistic like PER where the gap between the two seems to be small, it is worth noting that LeBron’s play has not begun to decline yet. Jordan had two seasons of his career where he was fresh off retirement, and one of them was at age 40. All things considered, it is a miracle Jordan still leads in that category. The margin will no doubt widen when LeBron exits his prime.

[ISiddiqui]

Because longevity matters. When peak value is close, the player who has more games at high level is the more valuable (this analysis, btw is common in baseball advanced statistics - for example in the 1990s + 2000s no one had close to as good a peak at a pitcher at Pedro Martinez - arguably the greatest 7 year peak of any pitcher in MLB history - , but most would pick Roger Clemens or Randy Johnson due to far more games played)

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[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by CarmanBulldog

If we were to swap them (and account for changes in the game, training, etc.), I think Jordan goes much better than 4-6 and I'm not convinced LeBron goes 6-0. Let's say Jordan goes 6-4 (or maybe 7-3) and LeBron goes 4-2. Thus, Jordan gets my vote.

I think this is unknowable, but even if it isn't my primary issue here is it gives LeBron zero credit for getting to 10 (and 8 in a row I think), almost twice as many as Jordan reached. That has to count for something if you're using championships as your metric (a dubious idea when assigning individual value in a team sport).

[PilotMan]

Jordan never had his high school games broadcast on ESPN.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because longevity matters. When peak value is close, the player who has more games at high level is the more valuable (this analysis, btw is common in baseball advanced statistics)

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Is peak value that close though? There's a clear number one here and he's ahead in every category.

Jordan has five of the top seven seasons ever when it comes to Value Over Replacement, with David Robinson and LeBron each having one.

LeBron even falls short even in stats like usage percentage, where changes in the way the game is played suggest that LeBron should be ahead. Jordan appears far ahead of anyone in his era while guys like Westbrook, Kobe and even DeMarcus Cousins are ahead of LeBron in the modern game.

Also, I'll take Barry Sanders before Emmitt Smith any day.

[Danny]

Lebron won a title with Kyrie, that should count for two at least.